EEVblog #978 - Keysight 1000X Hacking

[Fungus]

So given where this is going would you even bother going and buying a Rigol now?

If I was buying a scope today, perhaps I would choose some other brand and model, but two years ago, it was a good deal.

It's still a good deal. You won't get more value for $400 than a hacked DS1054Z. Not even close.

You might be able to get something 'nicer' if you're prepared to give up some features but in general terms it still kicks everybody else's ass.

(And it still will even when this Keysight hits the streets - the Keysight is at least 50% more expensive for less channels, less memory, etc.)

[tautech]

So given where this is going would you even bother going and buying a Rigol now?

If I was buying a scope today, perhaps I would choose some other brand and model, but two years ago, it was a good deal.

It's still a good deal. You won't get more value for $400 than a hacked DS1054Z. Not even close.

By the time the community has finished with these new Keysights they'll blow the socks off a 54Z.

[JPortici]

So given where this is going would you even bother going and buying a Rigol now?

If I was buying a scope today, perhaps I would choose some other brand and model, but two years ago, it was a good deal.

It's still a good deal. You won't get more value for $400 than a hacked DS1054Z. Not even close.

You might be able to get something 'nicer' if you're prepared to give up some features but in general terms it still kicks everybody else's ass.

(And it still will even when this Keysight hits the streets - the Keysight is at least 50% more expensive for less channels, less memory, etc.)

with canbus and lin,
signal generator,
test signals (apparently for training but i could use them to simulate problems in communications)
much more bandwidth, higher samplerate

much better for the advanced hobbyist

[mrpackethead]

i have two more workstations to setup for work..

Scope, 2 multimeters, 2 power supplys are the basic test tools on the bench.  the idea is that these tools stay at that workbench.

[mikeselectricstuff]

i have two more workstations to setup for work..

Scope, 2 multimeters, 2 power supplys are the basic test tools on the bench.  the idea is that these tools stay at that workbench.

Once nice thing about the KS range for places with multiple scopes is you have basically the same UI on the lowest and high-end ( barring some button locations)

[mikeselectricstuff]

Daniel's response....
https://youtu.be/GerxUs3gfls?t=756

[mtdoc]

By the time the community has finished with these new Keysights they'll blow the socks off a 54Z.

It seems to me that this Keysight scope that Dave hacks in the video (the DS1102G) is not designed to compete with the Rigol DX1054Z series scopes.  Those are  1GS/S 4 channel scopes at the bottom end of their line. At <$400 they are an incredible value but they have several limitations.  The new Keysight EDUX scopes are more in line with the Rigol DX1054Z class scopes at 1GS/S and nearer the $400 price point. But even if they prove easily hackable beyond their 50 MHz spec to compete with the low end Rigols, they will still be limited by fewer channels and perhaps only 100 kpts memory..

The Keysight 1102x series is more in line to compete with the Rigol DS2072 series of scopes. Both 2 channel, 2GS/S scopes and closer in price point.

[W9GFO]

Daniel's response....
https://youtu.be/GerxUs3gfls?t=756

Not only did he not discourage hacking in any way, he advertised that in doing so you can more than double the BW.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Daniel's response....
https://youtu.be/GerxUs3gfls?t=756

Not only did he not discourage hacking in any way, he advertised that in doing so you can more than double the BW.

The fact thet he even mentioned it was a surprise - this is the sort of thing that companies, especially big ones, rarely comment on, whatever their official or unofficial attitude is.   

[mtdoc]

Daniel's response....
https://youtu.be/GerxUs3gfls?t=756

Not only did he not discourage hacking in any way, he advertised that in doing so you can more than double the BW.

And he almost seemed giddy about that fact that it was hacked already.  Yep, it appears Keysight is just fine with the hack.

[bitseeker]

Yeah, I was already surprised when he first mentioned on the forum some time ago that hacking for personal use is OK. Most companies wouldn't say anything, anywhere, even remotely close to that.

This openness and the great support I've received on their DMMs and power supplies (both new and old) keep them on my "good" list. Sure, sometimes there may be a mixup or other snafu, like any company, but overall they've been great to work with.

[Fungus]

It's still a good deal. (DS1054Z)

signal generator,
test signals (apparently for training but i could use them to simulate problems in communications)
much more bandwidth, higher samplerate

much better for the advanced hobbyist

The base model doesn't even have the connectors/buttons for those things. If you're saying that something twice as expensive as a DS1054Z can be better than the DS1054Z after a lot of hardware hacking, then...  I guess so. 

[JPortici]

actually only the signal generator is not present. test signals are available from the probe compensation port.

How convenient, trimming the messages. you forgot that i also said
CANBUS
you can't hack it on the 1054z, i'm sooo sorry.

also you forgot that i said "higher bandwidth/samplerate"

AFAIK in this pricerange besides the keysight only the sds2000x comes with 2 -> 1 GS/s
yup. i need the samplerate, that's why i haven't already got the sds1000x+

remember that i said "the advanced hobbyist"? one whose needs aren't satisfied by the 1054z?

And i haven't already got this one keysight because march ain't over yet.

[grumpydoc]

And he almost seemed giddy about that fact that it was hacked already.  Yep, it appears Keysight is just fine with the hack.

It might actually work in Keysight's favour.

The only real reason for Keysight to worry is if selling a 1000X which was subsequently hacked robs them of the sale of a more expensive 'scope.

By and large this is not going to happen. Almost no-one who buys a 'scope commercially will hack it, and a hobbyist probably isn't in the market for the high end stuff anyway.

So it will probably attract business which is no bad thing and hacking the 'scope will void the warranty which is even better from Keysight's point of view as they get a sale without the potential cost of support.

[mrpackethead]

makes me wonder can a 3000 series be upgrade from 100Mhz to 1Ghz?

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

1 GHz is significantly higher than 100 MHz. In general, you can get to a 200 MHz with fairly standard off-the-shelf components. But, pushing beyond that starts to require more custom work.

Somewhere on this thread people are doing hardware hacks to change their 3000 X-Series scopes, but it looks pretty hands-on and is definitely not recommended.

I'll also reiterate again that neither I, nor anyone else in Keysight, gave info to Dave about board IDs, hacking, etc.

Also, LP stands for "Lab Prototype" 

[mtdoc]

also you forgot that i said "higher bandwidth/samplerate"

AFAIK in this pricerange besides the keysight only the sds2000x comes with 2 -> 1 GS/s
yup. i need the samplerate, that's why i haven't already got the sds1000x+

The Rigol DS2072 series of scopes have 2GS/s sample rate and prices start at $839 versus $877 for the least expensive of the new Keysight scopes with 2GS/s.

[Windfall]

I will have my hands on a new budget 2CH scope on Wed.
It's kinda weird in that there doesn't seem to be any date embargo with it, and the exchange will take place with trenchcoats outside the dumpster room at midnight.

Why would a scope be wearing a trenchcoat ?

[Monkeh]

also you forgot that i said "higher bandwidth/samplerate"

AFAIK in this pricerange besides the keysight only the sds2000x comes with 2 -> 1 GS/s
yup. i need the samplerate, that's why i haven't already got the sds1000x+

The Rigol DS2072 series of scopes have 2GS/s sample rate and prices start at $839 versus $877 for the least expensive of the new Keysight scopes with 2GS/s.

$38 doesn't seem like much to pay for a stable clock circuit.

[Windfall]

No law has been broken unless that's what a judge rules at the end of a court case.

Clearly some cases (like killing someone) will have an obvious outcome in tial, even if not tried.

It seems to me that hardware mods, whatever beneficial effect they may have (except copyright infringement, at least in the part of the globe where I live) can not be illegal. If the better specs are already locked up in the box, you should be free to release them.

[TheSteve]

makes me wonder can a 3000 series be upgrade from 100Mhz to 1Ghz?

3000A can be upgraded to 500 MHz
3000T can almost certainly be upgraded to 1 GHz (The mod is in progress, I'll have more info in another week or two)

Edit - I should add both of these mods require hardware changes.

[mtdoc]

also you forgot that i said "higher bandwidth/samplerate"

AFAIK in this pricerange besides the keysight only the sds2000x comes with 2 -> 1 GS/s
yup. i need the samplerate, that's why i haven't already got the sds1000x+

The Rigol DS2072 series of scopes have 2GS/s sample rate and prices start at $839 versus $877 for the least expensive of the new Keysight scopes with 2GS/s.

$38 doesn't seem like much to pay for a stable clock circuit.

Oh, for sure. My point was that the fair comparison should be between the  DS1102G and the Rigol DS 2072 (not the DX1054Z). Some might say that 56 Mpts memory in the Rigol is killer advantage.

Also, keep in mind that the few bugs (including the clock jitter) in the Rigol DS scopes were not discovered until long after they had been introduced and used quite happily by many customers. Who knows what bugs are waiting to be discovered in the new Keysight scopes?.  Regardless - they are excellent scopes for the price (as are the Rigols IMO) and this new "arms race" in scopes in the lower price ranges is a good thing for consumers. 

[mikeselectricstuff]

Also, keep in mind that the few bugs (including the clock jitter) in the Rigol DS scopes were not discovered until long after they had been introduced and used quite happily by many customers. Who knows what bugs are waiting to be discovered in the new Keysight scopes?. 

Except that most of the software and hardware has been proven over many years (SPI decode issue notwithstanding!) in the 2/3000, and you can expect updates from Keysight, whereas updates from Chinese manufacturers have been slow or nonexistent.
 

[mtdoc]

Also, keep in mind that the few bugs (including the clock jitter) in the Rigol DS scopes were not discovered until long after they had been introduced and used quite happily by many customers. Who knows what bugs are waiting to be discovered in the new Keysight scopes?. 

Except that most of the software and hardware has been proven over many years (SPI decode issue notwithstanding!) in the 2/3000, and you can expect updates from Keysight, whereas updates from Chinese manufacturers have been slow or nonexistent.

Good point.   But are you referring to firmware updates?  Because Rigol has been releasing regular firmware updates with bug fixes on the DS2000 series scopes ever since their introduction (and 1 hardware update as well). A total of 6 updates in 4 years I believe.

[JPortici]

also you forgot that i said "higher bandwidth/samplerate"

AFAIK in this pricerange besides the keysight only the sds2000x comes with 2 -> 1 GS/s
yup. i need the samplerate, that's why i haven't already got the sds1000x+

The Rigol DS2072 series of scopes have 2GS/s sample rate and prices start at $839 versus $877 for the least expensive of the new Keysight scopes with 2GS/s.

No rigol scope will be on my bench ever again. i'm done with chinese crap
i don't care if the 2000 series is better than the 1054z that fungus is always trying to push, i want to pay a premium and give my money to a brand that will be able to help me, listen and actually correct bugs

the rigol you state also doesn't have the signal generator. according to rigolna, DS2072A-S is 1189$
i'd still rather give my money to keysight, dso1000g 70 MHz + decode options is less than rigol if you want to put it that way

also, i don't care about deep memory.