Advice on setting up a low-mid volume SMT line for <$130k?

[Kjelt]

In the pdf it says OS is Win NT.
That is pretty old, so double check that there are spare parts for this machine like the mainboard, IDE hdds etc. If something breaks it needs to be fixed asap or your business will come to a stop.

[SVFeingold]

There are spares available for most things, I've got two service centers (Yamaha and K&S) within 20 miles of here and I've spoken to techs at each. By the time they become unserviceable I'll hopefully be able to afford something to replace them.

As for the machines themselves I've spoken to multiple people who run them and by all accounts they're bombproof.

For flexibility the Emerald definitely wins, it can handle larger chips and is more accurate. Both can accept grippers. I might be able to get 2 of my potentials to separate feeders from machines and then get a bundle of feeders for relatively little. The Emerald doesn't come with an area camera although it's an option, so I'm waiting to find out how much that option costs. I believe that's for larger or oddly shaped components. The project this is intended for does have some large chips that come in JEDEC trays, and although it is a non-issue to replace a manual feeder I wouldn't complain about the tray feeder if it's included. The "bonus" inspection conveyor is worthwhile in its own right IMHO.

This particular Opal is an 8 4 head machine. Windows NT I'm not too worried about it, in fact I'm downright excited about it after considering the prospect of using either Neoden software or DOS-based software that comes on older machines. The service centers offer perpetual licenses, free backups, and free programs with latest available updates if the computer dies for whatever reason.

The Emerald is a 2005 machine, not sure about hours yet. The Opal is a 2003 with 7k hours and the optional CCD camera installed (54mm I believe) that I know was pulled from a working line and had a calibration done not 4 months ago - I've been in contact with the original owner.

They also quoted me for an iPulse M20 + 110 feeders, which is something I see in my dreams. $220k or about 4.5k/month lease. With any volume that may make sense but until then...dream on!



I've copied the specs of the Opal and Emerald below to make it easier to see:





Those of you who have done moderately sized runs, have you noticed any substantial price difference between ICs in trays vs. reels? I imagine the LCS tray feeder could be quite a boon if a board has, say, 5-10 components that could be loaded in trays. That's 5-10 feeder slots that just opened up. On the other hand, it has 84 feeder positions to start where the Opal has 100. On the other, other hand, the Opal can only handle 11mm tall parts while the Emerald can do 20mm. On the other, other, other...

[rx8pilot]

Damn...that is dreamy! I want to upgrade.

I just picked up a large lot of feeders for my Quad system and the company had a few of these in there shop. I was drooling. What I really wonder is the practical realities getting them set up, programmed, debugged and full speed running. I spend most of my time setting up, loading feeders, fiddling with various details before I can actually run full speed with an acceptable level of issues.

These things look like a good speed and versatility overall. I suspect that the challenge is to have the rest of the line and the operating system rather tightly dialed in or the placement machine will be waiting for you to feed it.

This is cool, hope it comes together.

[SVFeingold]

Since for the near future - if I manage to even get this machine - I'll be pasting manually and reflowing in my trusty toaster, you bet the machine will be waiting on me!

My time breakdown initially was something like - for a run of 50 totally manually assembled boards:

1) 2-3 hours - Preparing the assembly. This means labeling a bunch of little SMT boxes with each BOM item and sticking parts in there so they're all right in front of me.
2) 30 min. setup + ~1-2 min./ea - Stenciling
3) ~20 min. - Placement ~ 100 components per board, single side
4) ~5 min. - Reflow, although it's a concurrent process except when I have to open the door to cool at the end.
5) ~5 min. - Placing 13 THT components, trimming leads, and fluxing
6) ~5-10 min. - Dip soldering THT + cleaning up any bridges

Of course something always comes up, realistically I was averaging about an hour per board, all said and done. If I get a half decent manual stencil printer I could do a couple panels of 4x boards per minute, and reflow a panel every 6 minutes. With the reflow as a bottleneck that's still 300+ boards per day. 10x the output we need for now.

BUT - and this is the key - MUCH more enjoyable and not driving me insane quite so much as manually placing thousands of components. It's cathartic for one or two boards, but the rest is just torture. I'd much rather spend several hours programming the PnP and then letting it do its thing for the next few weeks. We're engineers! Shouldn't be wasting our time on such mundane things as manual PCBA if we can avoid it.

The frustrating thing is the THT. Good god, I never realized just how time consuming those are until I had to do a bunch. Previously I was soldering not only the 13 2-pin parts, but two 40-pin headers per board. Ugh. The simple investment of $40 in a solder pot made my life so much easier. Unfortunately I needed it ASAP and could only find solder locally that was flux-cored on a roll. DON'T DO THAT! If you don't die from the fumes you'll want to after dealing with mopping up a shocking amount of flux sloshing around your pot.

[rx8pilot]

Insanity avoidance was THE reason I got a line put together. I do not need much speed but I was doing boards that were roughly 1hr each full manual. The volume went up to where I spent 3-4 days placing components 12 hrs each day. I was about to punch a baby it was so awful. (That is a joke for the dense readers) 

The first PCB took an hour, the last one took 90 minutes.

The automated version of that not only goes much faster, but it saves my sanity. Also, I have been able to use more difficult parts in my designs since there it is no more difficult to assemble an 0402 than it is an 0805 part. There is no problem placing BGA's, .4mm QFN's etc. Placing those by hand is possible, but slow.

[mrpackethead]

bEEN THERE, and felt the pain.

I'm bottled necked right now by my reflow, am working on that now, but i pretty much get all our production done on  1 day a week and our line is idle for 6 days!   I'm still using manual Paste, and to be honest i dont' need up speed that up any,  i can paste 20 panels in 20 minutes, stack them up and then just insert them in the machine as it needs them.

The lines not perfect and it does need some attention from time to time,  so trying ot multi task is annoying..   But i cna do somethign like binge watch netflix at the same time.

[ovnr]

On the topic of SMD glue: Can I just dispense it (syringe) after the paste has been stencilled on, and cure it as part of the reflow process? I really don't do many double-sided loads, but when I do I'm always rather worried about stuff falling off.

[mikeselectricstuff]

On the topic of SMD glue: Can I just dispense it (syringe) after the paste has been stencilled on, and cure it as part of the reflow process? I really don't do many double-sided loads, but when I do I'm always rather worried about stuff falling off.

I think that's the idea, though it's only necessary for large /heavy parts (relative to pad area) . Most parts will stay on from surface tension.
If possible you design for one side to have all small parts, and assemble that side first.

[mrpackethead]

On the topic of SMD glue: Can I just dispense it (syringe) after the paste has been stencilled on, and cure it as part of the reflow process? I really don't do many double-sided loads, but when I do I'm always rather worried about stuff falling off.

I think that's the idea, though it's only necessary for large /heavy parts (relative to pad area) . Most parts will stay on from surface tension.
If possible you design for one side to have all small parts, and assemble that side first.

0.045g / mm2 is the magic ratio number for weight to pad size for the surface tension.           If you are under this, then surface tension should hold it on.. if you are over, then you need to glue it, or do it 2nd side.

[SVFeingold]

For what it's worth, I do double-sided boards regularly and can't recall any parts falling off.

Typically they're boards I've designed so stuff on the bottom is small anyway, but I've never had an issue. Even inductors and large ICs seem to be fine. For inductors if they're small they won't have any problems. Small for me is 5x5mm or less, and not very tall. Even small electrolytics will probably be OK. Connectors can be an issue if they're chunky.

It's not so scary as you may think. Buy a scale that can do accurate mg measurements for $20 and do the math on parts that worry you.

[jmelson]

This particular Opal is an 8 4 head machine. Windows NT I'm not too worried about it, in fact I'm downright excited about it after considering the prospect of using either Neoden software or DOS-based software that comes on older machines. The service centers offer perpetual licenses, free backups, and free programs with latest available updates if the computer dies for whatever reason.

The Emerald is a 2005 machine, not sure about hours yet. The Opal is a 2003 with 7k hours and the optional CCD camera installed (54mm I believe) that I know was pulled from a working line and had a calibration done not 4 months ago - I've been in contact with the original owner.

Oh, one other detail is maximum component height.  One of those machines can handle components up to 12 mm tall!  My CSM84, for instance is limited to 6.5 mm, and so some electrolytic caps are right at the edge.  Also, the feeders do not properly accommodate tapes with such tall components.  The tape rides "high" in the feeder and the sprocket teeth tend to slip.

Those of you who have done moderately sized runs, have you noticed any substantial price difference between ICs in trays vs. reels?

No, but Digi-Key will take expensive chips out of the waffle trays and repackage them in tapes cut into lengths of 5 chips!  I've complained to them about this, and it seems like maybe they don't do this as much anymore.  I used to order 25 parts and still get them re-taped.

 I imagine the LCS tray feeder could be quite a boon if a board has, say, 5-10 components that could be loaded in trays. That's 5-10 feeder slots that just opened up. On the other hand, it has 84 feeder positions to start where the Opal has 100. On the other, other hand, the Opal can only handle 11mm tall parts while the Emerald can do 20mm. On the other, other, other...
[/quote]

Well, you want ONE machine that can do the widest variety of part shapes and sizes.  I can't imagine SMT parts 20 mm tall!  I can imagine 7-10 mm tall, though.

Jon

[jmelson]

For what it's worth, I do double-sided boards regularly and can't recall any parts falling off.

Yes, I have a board that has a big switching regulator on the back, 5-lead TO-220 package (LM2575).  And, I have never had one fall off during reflow of the front side.
This does require TWO passes through the reflow oven.  But, I would never try to paste and place the back, then paste and place the front and then do just ONE reflow.
WAY too easy to touch a part on the back and knock it out of alignment or off the board.
[/quote]

Jon

[mikeselectricstuff]

For what it's worth, I do double-sided boards regularly and can't recall any parts falling off.

Yes, I have a board that has a big switching regulator on the back, 5-lead TO-220 package (LM2575).  And, I have never had one fall off during reflow of the front side.
This does require TWO passes through the reflow oven.  But, I would never try to paste and place the back, then paste and place the front and then do just ONE reflow.
WAY too easy to touch a part on the back and knock it out of alignment or off the board.

I doubt that doing the second side without reflowing the first would ever be viable without gluing everything.
Can't see any major reason to do it

Jon
[/quote]

[SVFeingold]

Agree, I was referring to two separate reflow cycles of course.

jmelson, the Opal has an 11mm part height limit while the Emerald has a 20mm limit and I believe higher with some caveats. I see this as most useful for certain things like switches, connectors, big caps. Even if those things are not reflow safe it'd be awesome to be able to use the Emerald as a placement machine for wave or dip soldering.

However it's also one of those things where if I'm being honest I can't recall an SMT board I've designed ever having parts that high, with the exception of a few electrolytics that were juuuuust at that limit. So it may not matter for 90% of cases. In my experience though, the 10% remaining will end up taking 50% of your time.

[mrpackethead]

I have YV-100ii's ( Opals ) which are supposed to have a limit of 6.5mm..  I regularlly place some inductors that are 12mm.   Theres a few parts that i hand place its just not worth the drama, and if its only a couple of parts in low volume its not really an issue.

[SVFeingold]

Since the stated height limit accounts for moving tall parts over previously placed tall parts, I assume that you can easily place something that's considerably taller provided you take on the responsibility of ensuring that you don't smash parts together. I.e. if you have a single 15 mm part you can probably place it find, assuming you don't have others on the board that will violate the vertical clearance. That sound about right?

[jmelson]

Agree, I was referring to two separate reflow cycles of course.

jmelson, the Opal has an 11mm part height limit while the Emerald has a 20mm limit and I believe higher with some caveats. I see this as most useful for certain things like switches, connectors, big caps. Even if those things are not reflow safe it'd be awesome to be able to use the Emerald as a placement machine for wave or dip soldering.

However it's also one of those things where if I'm being honest I can't recall an SMT board I've designed ever having parts that high, with the exception of a few electrolytics that were juuuuust at that limit. So it may not matter for 90% of cases. In my experience though, the 10% remaining will end up taking 50% of your time.

Yup, I can't imagine what the SMT tapes would look like with a 20 mm high part.  Also, can the feeders actually feed tapes like that?  I'd have my doubts.

Jon

[Corporate666]

Damn...that is dreamy! I want to upgrade.

I just picked up a large lot of feeders for my Quad system and the company had a few of these in there shop. I was drooling. What I really wonder is the practical realities getting them set up, programmed, debugged and full speed running. I spend most of my time setting up, loading feeders, fiddling with various details before I can actually run full speed with an acceptable level of issues.

These things look like a good speed and versatility overall. I suspect that the challenge is to have the rest of the line and the operating system rather tightly dialed in or the placement machine will be waiting for you to feed it.

This is cool, hope it comes together.

Hey did you buy the batch of 100+ feeders on eBay?

[jmelson]

Since the stated height limit accounts for moving tall parts over previously placed tall parts, I assume that you can easily place something that's considerably taller provided you take on the responsibility of ensuring that you don't smash parts together. I.e. if you have a single 15 mm part you can probably place it find, assuming you don't have others on the board that will violate the vertical clearance. That sound about right?

Well, at least with my CSM84, that level of control is very difficult.  You could, in theory, rearrange the whole placement file so it places parts from the back of the board first, toward the front, thereby never passing over already placed parts.  (Prevents you from using rear feeder rail.)  Since my machine has a mechanical alignment station on the back rail, it means all the large parts have to pass over the board to get there.  But, those parts are not tall, so maybe OK.

But, other than doing something like that, you only tell it "put part from feeder 5 onto xxx,yyy position", and not the specific path to travel to get there.

Jon

[rx8pilot]

Hey did you buy the batch of 100+ feeders on eBay?

Yes, I did. 140 feeders overall. 170 reel arms. The majority are in great shape with fresh peel rollers. The guy also threw in 4 nozzle changers and about a dozen parts feeders that have enough spares to repair any of the main batch that have issues.

I am planning some modifications to do 0201/0402 and 2mm pitch. Finally, I have enough feeders to load up all parts of all my current designs and still have a bunch of spares. 240 feeders total plus my custom vibe and cut-tape trays.

It is hard to have too many feeders, but I may be there.

[Corporate666]

Hey did you buy the batch of 100+ feeders on eBay?

Yes, I did. 140 feeders overall. 170 reel arms. The majority are in great shape with fresh peel rollers. The guy also threw in 4 nozzle changers and about a dozen parts feeders that have enough spares to repair any of the main batch that have issues.

I am planning some modifications to do 0201/0402 and 2mm pitch. Finally, I have enough feeders to load up all parts of all my current designs and still have a bunch of spares. 240 feeders total plus my custom vibe and cut-tape trays.

It is hard to have too many feeders, but I may be there.

Bastard!     I put an offer in on those - but it was over the holiday weekend and it auto-expired before the guy saw it.  The guy emailed me to accept it and said he will send me an invoice which I was waiting to get to pay.  Then he went radio silent and the auction ended and he stopped replying to me.  I guess in the meantime you must have sent a higher offer.

I don't suppose you want to sell off a few of the feeders, do you?  I especially need a few 12mm feeders and could use a few 8mm feeders too.  They come up on eBay from time to time but that was a great deal for the whole batch.

[rx8pilot]

Sure....sending a PM.

[Marina CSM]

Hello!
I would like to know where I can find spare parts equivalencies for my Philips CSM and Yamaha, and I would also like to know where I can buy them (O-rings and such). I would be very grateful if someone could give me some advice.

[jmelson]

Hello!
I would like to know where I can find spare parts equivalencies for my Philips CSM and Yamaha, and I would also like to know where I can buy them (O-rings and such). I would be very grateful if someone could give me some advice.

Wow!  I got rid of my CSM84 last year, and replaced it with a Quad QSA30A (made by Samsung).  The base machine is a Samsung CP30, which apparently was REALLY popular in the far East, tons of parts available from multiple vendors at reasonable cost.  I was pleasantly surprised, as I needed a bunch of parts to get this machine running.  All the mechanicals for your CSM should be available as Yamaha parts.  But, the CSM might be so old that the brokers are not listing them anymore.  Send inquiries to various brokers who deal in PCB machinery, and see if they still have the parts.
Jon

[jmelson]

Hello!
I would like to know where I can find spare parts equivalencies for my Philips CSM and Yamaha, and I would also like to know where I can buy them (O-rings and such). I would be very grateful if someone could give me some advice.

As for O-rings, I just measured the ones I needed and ordered them from places that specialize in those.  The cover over the vacuum filter were quite delicate and easily damaged when changing the filter.  I did buy replacement filters from a far East outfit.
ZK Electronic Technology Co., Limited
Tel: 86-13590495325
Website: www.smt-cn.com
Skype: harper55551
They were US$0.85 each, just a tube of what looks like the same material cigarette filters are made from.
I did clean my old fiters with solvent like Acetone a few times to get oil out of them before replacing.

Jon