New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510

[Brad O]

(cross-posting this here from the 7500/2450 bugs discusion)

Resizing buffers can sometimes cause memory fragmentation or memory leak.

Steps to reproduce on the 6500 (I have firmware 1.0.02a):
1. Reboot (power off, power on)
2. Go to Reading Buffers
--> The bug will appears if you do NOT touch the Buffer selector button and leave it at defbuffer1
3. Change capacity to 1M
4. Set buffer to defbuffer2
5. Change capacity to 10
--> Here the bug we see is that the buffer selection goes back to defbuffer1, but the capacity button is the value from defbuffer2
6. Set buffer to defbuffer1 (reselect it even if already selected)
7. Change capacity to 10
--> From this point, 1M is missing, it's not possible to either resize or create a buffer larger than 6M (7M is the max on the 6500). Until the next reboot.

In the mean time, it's simple to avoid the bug, always reselect the buffer before changing capacity.

Hmm, I wasn't able to replicate this with my 1.0.02a.  After step 7 I was able to create a buffer of size 6,500,000 without a problem.  I also tried resizing defbuffer2 from 10 to 6,500,000 without issue.  I did see that defbuffer1 appeared after resizing defbuffer2 though (after step 5), I filed a bug report for that. 

[MrFox]

(cross-posting this here from the 7500/2450 bugs discusion)

Resizing buffers can sometimes cause memory fragmentation or memory leak.

Steps to reproduce on the 6500 (I have firmware 1.0.02a):
1. Reboot (power off, power on)
2. Go to Reading Buffers
--> The bug will appears if you do NOT touch the Buffer selector button and leave it at defbuffer1
3. Change capacity to 1M
4. Set buffer to defbuffer2
5. Change capacity to 10
--> Here the bug we see is that the buffer selection goes back to defbuffer1, but the capacity button is the value from defbuffer2
6. Set buffer to defbuffer1 (reselect it even if already selected)
7. Change capacity to 10
--> From this point, 1M is missing, it's not possible to either resize or create a buffer larger than 6M (7M is the max on the 6500). Until the next reboot.

In the mean time, it's simple to avoid the bug, always reselect the buffer before changing capacity.

Hmm, I wasn't able to replicate this with my 1.0.02a.  After step 7 I was able to create a buffer of size 6,500,000 without a problem.  I also tried resizing defbuffer2 from 10 to 6,500,000 without issue.  I did see that defbuffer1 appeared after resizing defbuffer2 though (after step 5), I filed a bug report for that. 

Ah okay it's really fragmentation. At that point you can make 6.5M but you cannot make or resize to 7M anymore. Since the two default buffers cannot be deleted, they eventually end up in the way of creating a single maximum buffer. Resizing them left and right is moving them around so it's not easy to make clear repro steps.
...
8. Try to create a buffer with an invalid size of zero, it will display the message it must be between 10 and 7M
9. Try to create a 7M buffer and there's a more low level OOM error -225 and 4937
--> The biggest contiguous space seems to be 6.6M here
...

The maximum mentionned in the error message doesn't match the biggest contiguous space available, it indicates the entire free memory.
Would be useful to enable deleting the defaults to mitigate the fragmentation issue.
Would be better to have a defragmentation upon any buffer operations which would split the free space.

[HKJ]

My history with a free Kickstarter license are hopefully near the end. Brad did send me to the tek license office and they kicked my over to an EU license office, but they where rather busy and it took two weeks to make a license code. I got it today. Now I just have to find out what a "Host ID" is. It is not the serial number of my meter and it must be something that can response to a "Lookup Unit" or be in a Tek database.
I did never get any further response from where I bought the meter, they (elfadistrelec) obvious do not provide the free Kickstarter license.

[Brad O]

(cross-posting this here from the 7500/2450 bugs discusion)

Resizing buffers can sometimes cause memory fragmentation or memory leak.

Steps to reproduce on the 6500 (I have firmware 1.0.02a):
1. Reboot (power off, power on)
2. Go to Reading Buffers
--> The bug will appears if you do NOT touch the Buffer selector button and leave it at defbuffer1
3. Change capacity to 1M
4. Set buffer to defbuffer2
5. Change capacity to 10
--> Here the bug we see is that the buffer selection goes back to defbuffer1, but the capacity button is the value from defbuffer2
6. Set buffer to defbuffer1 (reselect it even if already selected)
7. Change capacity to 10
--> From this point, 1M is missing, it's not possible to either resize or create a buffer larger than 6M (7M is the max on the 6500). Until the next reboot.

In the mean time, it's simple to avoid the bug, always reselect the buffer before changing capacity.

Hmm, I wasn't able to replicate this with my 1.0.02a.  After step 7 I was able to create a buffer of size 6,500,000 without a problem.  I also tried resizing defbuffer2 from 10 to 6,500,000 without issue.  I did see that defbuffer1 appeared after resizing defbuffer2 though (after step 5), I filed a bug report for that. 

Ah okay it's really fragmentation. At that point you can make 6.5M but you cannot make or resize to 7M anymore. Since the two default buffers cannot be deleted, they eventually end up in the way of creating a single maximum buffer. Resizing them left and right is moving them around so it's not easy to make clear repro steps.
...
8. Try to create a buffer with an invalid size of zero, it will display the message it must be between 10 and 7M
9. Try to create a 7M buffer and there's a more low level OOM error -225 and 4937
--> The biggest contiguous space seems to be 6.6M here
...

The maximum mentionned in the error message doesn't match the biggest contiguous space available, it indicates the entire free memory.
Would be useful to enable deleting the defaults to mitigate the fragmentation issue.
Would be better to have a defragmentation upon any buffer operations which would split the free space.

Hmm, the error that gives you the maximum buffer size is I think supposed to get the maximum contiguous block size, and it looks like it does some times, but gets confused other times.  These steps are really helpful, thanks!  In the meantime, a System Reset or sending the reset() command will clear the volatile memory and return the buffers to their default sizes and positions in memory. 

My history with a free Kickstarter license are hopefully near the end. Brad did send me to the tek license office and they kicked my over to an EU license office, but they where rather busy and it took two weeks to make a license code. I got it today. Now I just have to find out what a "Host ID" is. It is not the serial number of my meter and it must be something that can response to a "Lookup Unit" or be in a Tek database.
I did never get any further response from where I bought the meter, they (elfadistrelec) obvious do not provide the free Kickstarter license.

Unfortunately the end of the year does get very busy for all our sales people as companies rush to use up their yearly budget.  The Host ID is generated by the KickStart software after you install it.  You can find it by opening KickStart (the trial version), clicking on the gear icon in the upper right, then click "Manage Licenses".  The Host ID is at the top of that window.  The Host ID is used with all Tek software and I think the license office people are more used to dealing with large companies buying hundreds of licenses, so they forget to explain how to find these simple things!

[HKJ]

Unfortunately the end of the year does get very busy for all our sales people as companies rush to use up their yearly budget.  The Host ID is generated by the KickStart software after you install it.  You can find it by opening KickStart (the trial version), clicking on the gear icon in the upper right, then click "Manage Licenses".  The Host ID is at the top of that window.  The Host ID is used with all Tek software and I think the license office people are more used to dealing with large companies buying hundreds of licenses, so they forget to explain how to find these simple things!

Now the license is installed and I have updated my review, thanks for the help.
It would have been nice if the webpage that ask for the "Host ID" used some text on explaining what is was or where to find it.

[HighVoltage]

Does anyone know, if you also get a free Kickstarter license with the purchase of a DMM7510?

[drummerdimitri]

Where do i need to set the resistance value of my Shunt to run the power script correctly? Do i have to edit the script with some program on windows or from the instrument itself?

[MegaVolt]

Does anyone know, if you also get a free Kickstarter license with the purchase of a DMM7510?

Yes, I see in my profile a link to generate a license for 7510. This is very nice. Thank you Brad O for this information. I would not have noticed it myself.

In the evening I will get to the device and the computer and install myself a license.

[Brad O]

Does anyone know, if you also get a free Kickstarter license with the purchase of a DMM7510?

No, the free license is only with the purchase of a DMM6500 or a DAQ6510.  But, I think we still have a promotion running where when you register a new, compatible instrument on tek.com, you get a license. I think that's what MegaVolt is seeing.

Where do i need to set the resistance value of my Shunt to run the power script correctly? Do i have to edit the script with some program on windows or from the instrument itself?

The script is very simple so you can't edit it from the box itself, you need to a separate computer.  Our own IDE code editor for TSP is called Test Script Builder, you can find it on our website (https://www.tek.com/software/TestScriptBuilder/KTS-850J02).  But, TSP scripts are plain text and can be edited with any basic text editor.  The relevant line for the setting the Shunt resistor value is line 10: "shuntValue = 0.91 --ohms"
 

[drummerdimitri]

Does anyone know, if you also get a free Kickstarter license with the purchase of a DMM7510?

No, the free license is only with the purchase of a DMM6500 or a DAQ6510.  But, I think we still have a promotion running where when you register a new, compatible instrument on tek.com, you get a license. I think that's what MegaVolt is seeing.

Where do i need to set the resistance value of my Shunt to run the power script correctly? Do i have to edit the script with some program on windows or from the instrument itself?

The script is very simple so you can't edit it from the box itself, you need to a separate computer.  Our own IDE code editor for TSP is called Test Script Builder, you can find it on our website (https://www.tek.com/software/TestScriptBuilder/KTS-850J02).  But, TSP scripts are plain text and can be edited with any basic text editor.  The relevant line for the setting the Shunt resistor value is line 10: "shuntValue = 0.91 --ohms"

Thanks for the info Brad, I was able to set the value of my shunt resistor.

I'm still having issues with the connections to measure power though.

I am trying to measure the power draw from a DC power supply by using a shunt resistor in series between the load and the PSU and then measure the voltage drop across the resistor but that isn't working.

Is my method flawed? P=VI.

V is measured at the input terminals (12V DC) and I is automatically calculated by the program since the Voltage drop across the shunt is being measured by the sense terminals and the shunt's resistance is known 

Please tell me what I'm doing wrong here.

[Brad O]

Thanks for the info Brad, I was able to set the value of my shunt resistor.

I'm still having issues with the connections to measure power though.

I am trying to measure the power draw from a DC power supply by using a shunt resistor in series between the load and the PSU and then measure the voltage drop across the resistor but that isn't working.

Is my method flawed? P=VI.

V is measured at the input terminals (12V DC) and I is automatically calculated by the program since the Voltage drop across the shunt is being measured by the sense terminals and the shunt's resistance is known 

Please tell me what I'm doing wrong here.

What exactly is going wrong?  Can you attach a schematic of your connections? 
You can also troubleshoot by looking at the raw data at MENU > Reading Table and selecting the readingBuffer.  The current is the Extra column divided by the shunt resistor value.  The voltage is the Reading column times the Extra column, then P=VI. The script does exactly this calculation.

[drummerdimitri]

Thanks for the info Brad, I was able to set the value of my shunt resistor.

I'm still having issues with the connections to measure power though.

I am trying to measure the power draw from a DC power supply by using a shunt resistor in series between the load and the PSU and then measure the voltage drop across the resistor but that isn't working.

Is my method flawed? P=VI.

V is measured at the input terminals (12V DC) and I is automatically calculated by the program since the Voltage drop across the shunt is being measured by the sense terminals and the shunt's resistance is known 

Please tell me what I'm doing wrong here.

What exactly is going wrong?  Can you attach a schematic of your connections? 
You can also troubleshoot by looking at the raw data at MENU > Reading Table and selecting the readingBuffer.  The current is the Extra column divided by the shunt resistor value.  The voltage is the Reading column times the Extra column, then P=VI. The script does exactly this calculation.

I'm not good at drawing schematics, could you please show me the right way to make such a connection and I will do the same from my end.?

[MegaVolt]

I'm not good at drawing schematics, could you please show me the right way to make such a connection and I will do the same from my end.?

[drummerdimitri]

Since the DMM6500 can take simultaneous readings of current and voltage is there some script to measure power other than using a shunt resistor?

[MegaVolt]

Since the DMM6500 can take simultaneous readings of current and voltage is there some script to measure power other than using a shunt resistor?

The device cannot measure current and voltage simultaneously. Voltage only or current only. At the same time spending a relay resource.

[drummerdimitri]

Since the DMM6500 can take simultaneous readings of current and voltage is there some script to measure power other than using a shunt resistor?

The device cannot measure current and voltage simultaneously. Voltage only or current only. At the same time spending a relay resource.

How was I able to measure the DC voltage using the rear ports and DC current as a secondary measurement then?

There were no relays switching between the two modes 

[MegaVolt]

How was I able to measure the DC voltage using the rear ports and DC current as a secondary measurement then?

There were no relays switching between the two modes 

I could be wrong. I have 7510 and maybe their behavior is somewhat different.

[aurelienr]

Hi everybody,
I'm looking since several month for a reliable mean to measure current profiles on low power devices, like IoT sensors or any othr projects with low idle current and peaks working currents. If possible with a cost < 1000 euros.
When I saw the DMM6500 I thought my problem would be solved, through the high frequency sampling, that would ease measurements of low duration events (for example active current duration of 50µs with 500µs sleep.
But when I read the full specs, I see that :
 - I can use normal measurement mode up to 20.6ksamples / secs with 4.5" resolution ("Typical Reading rates, DC function" at page 17, and "DC Current noise Charac" at page 10
 - if I use Digitizing feature, according to table at page 16, I can get only 8 ENB at 50kHz sampling (400µA for 100mA range), and resolution is not specified after 50ksps. That's strange...Or may I misunderstand the 1/10/50kHz indication in the table ?

I don't understand something in the DC Current Accuracy specs (page 10). For 100mA caliber, I see that error is 0.01 + 0.03 within 24h after cal, and 0.015 + 0.005 after 90 days. Why is the range error so high (0.03% of 100mA = 30µA !) and is reduced after 90 days (0.005% = 5µA) ?

Thanks
Aurelien

[MrFox]

I don't understand something in the DC Current Accuracy specs (page 10). For 100mA caliber, I see that error is 0.01 + 0.03 within 24h after cal, and 0.015 + 0.005 after 90 days. Why is the range error so high (0.03% of 100mA = 30µA !) and is reduced after 90 days (0.005% = 5µA) ?

Yeah I noticed that too, considering the rest of the table I'm assuming it's a typo, and should be 0.003

[Brad O]

Since the DMM6500 can take simultaneous readings of current and voltage is there some script to measure power other than using a shunt resistor?

The device cannot measure current and voltage simultaneously. Voltage only or current only. At the same time spending a relay resource.

How was I able to measure the DC voltage using the rear ports and DC current as a secondary measurement then?

There were no relays switching between the two modes 

MegaVolt is right, the DMM6500 can't measure Voltage and Current simultaneously, but you might not always hear relays clicking.  There are a couple range combinations that don't require a relay switch, typically because the the signal paths use the same range resistors.  10V and 1A is an example combo, but there are a few others.  This behavior was the same for the 7510 as far as I know, but the range combinations might be different.

Hi everybody,
I'm looking since several month for a reliable mean to measure current profiles on low power devices, like IoT sensors or any othr projects with low idle current and peaks working currents. If possible with a cost < 1000 euros.
When I saw the DMM6500 I thought my problem would be solved, through the high frequency sampling, that would ease measurements of low duration events (for example active current duration of 50µs with 500µs sleep.
But when I read the full specs, I see that :
 - I can use normal measurement mode up to 20.6ksamples / secs with 4.5" resolution ("Typical Reading rates, DC function" at page 17, and "DC Current noise Charac" at page 10
 - if I use Digitizing feature, according to table at page 16, I can get only 8 ENB at 50kHz sampling (400µA for 100mA range), and resolution is not specified after 50ksps. That's strange...Or may I misunderstand the 1/10/50kHz indication in the table ?

I don't understand something in the DC Current Accuracy specs (page 10). For 100mA caliber, I see that error is 0.01 + 0.03 within 24h after cal, and 0.015 + 0.005 after 90 days. Why is the range error so high (0.03% of 100mA = 30µA !) and is reduced after 90 days (0.005% = 5µA) ?

Thanks
Aurelien

You're right with the typical reading rate, but as an aside, the 4.5 digit is just the spec'd accuracy.  You can command the instrument to return 6.5 digits at the maximum sample rate if you wanted. 
On the Digitizing table, the 1 kHz/10kHz/50kHz is the input signal, the sampling rate for that table is fixed at 1 MS/s.  That table is largely to help with audio measurements, so the team decided to stop at 50 kHz, high above the typical 20kHz max for the audio spectrum.

On the DC Current specs, it looks like someone made a mistake, it's supposed to be 0.01+0.003 within 24h.  A bit of background: you're looking at the Datasheet which, I think, is auto generated every so often.  There's also the Specifications which is controlled directly by engineering (found here). The specs right now have the correct number, being +0.003%range.  There's not supposed to be any discrepancy between the Specs and Datasheet though, I'm not sure how that even happened since I thought the process was automated but I'll put in a bug report for the website team, sorry for the confusion!

[MegaVolt]

you might not always hear relays clicking.  There are a couple range combinations that don't require a relay switch, typically because the the signal paths use the same range resistors.  10V and 1A is an example combo, but there are a few others.  This behavior was the same for the 7510 as far as I know, but the range combinations might be different.

Maybe there is some opportunity to tell us about the technical details of the device 7510 and 6510?
Information is not enough. To know when the relay will click, and when not.
What is the input bandwidth for DCV.
Is it possible to somehow find out the exact values of current shunts. The device itself must know them?
How are the processors, trigger connected inside ...
And any other information on the device. Scheme. Block diagram Sketches.
Please.

[aurelienr]

Thank you Brad, that helps !
Looks like santa will be nice this year

Just another question about KickStart licencing. I've read on this topic that the licence was included when ordering a DMM6500. I've seen some screenshots with "Host ID" request. Is there any limitation on number of PC that can use the licence for one multimeter ? I mean : if I install the licence on my current PC, will have to buy a new licence when I will replace my PC by a new one ? I know that this kind of host limited protection is used for others kinds of licences, but what about KickStart ?

[Brad O]

you might not always hear relays clicking.  There are a couple range combinations that don't require a relay switch, typically because the the signal paths use the same range resistors.  10V and 1A is an example combo, but there are a few others.  This behavior was the same for the 7510 as far as I know, but the range combinations might be different.

Maybe there is some opportunity to tell us about the technical details of the device 7510 and 6510?
Information is not enough. To know when the relay will click, and when not.
What is the input bandwidth for DCV.
Is it possible to somehow find out the exact values of current shunts. The device itself must know them?
How are the processors, trigger connected inside ...
And any other information on the device. Scheme. Block diagram Sketches.
Please.

What exactly are you trying to do?  That's a lot of info you're asking for...  Like for DCV Bandwidth: it varies depending on a handful of settings and isn't spec'd, so if you tell me why you want it or how you'll use the info, I can estimate a figure for you.  For something like a block diagram, what are you looking to find? 

Thank you Brad, that helps !
Looks like santa will be nice this year

Just another question about KickStart licencing. I've read on this topic that the licence was included when ordering a DMM6500. I've seen some screenshots with "Host ID" request. Is there any limitation on number of PC that can use the licence for one multimeter ? I mean : if I install the licence on my current PC, will have to buy a new licence when I will replace my PC by a new one ? I know that this kind of host limited protection is used for others kinds of licences, but what about KickStart ?

Yes, but when ordering, please make sure they include KickStart in your quote, it should be quoted as $0 though or have a 100% discount applied.  That will save you from having to message me for help later .

Tektronix has three types of licenses: node locked, floating, or free trial.  For KickStart, most every license is floating, so you can move the license from computer to computer no problem, but you can only have the license on one computer at a time. 
The only time you get a node-locked license is if you get KickStart for free by registering a compatible product on tek.com (I think that promotion is still going on).  That license will only be usable on the computer you install it on. 
KickStart is also available as a free trial, which is technically it's own type of license. 
The Tek AMS page (https://www.tek.com/products/product-license) has the full descriptions for all these. 

[MegaVolt]

What exactly are you trying to do?  That's a lot of info you're asking for...  Like for DCV Bandwidth: it varies depending on a handful of settings and isn't spec'd, so if you tell me why you want it or how you'll use the info, I can estimate a figure for you.  For something like a block diagram, what are you looking to find? 

I am an engineer old school.
I used to understand the device with which I work. It is very difficult for me to work with a black box which I do not understand.

For example, I measure the noise of a low-noise power source. And I want to know the band of the device as the measured noise level depends on it. And I want to have this answer in my head and not ask the engineer Keithley every time.

Or I do not want to hear the switching of relyushek in double dimensions. For example, I crossed out this mode for myself from the applicable. And it turns out that under certain conditions I can use it.

Those. I really want to work with the device myself without distracting Keythley engineers from work.

Moreover, the programmers received detailed instructions for working with the device for 1000 pages. And engineers have nothing but a very modest verbal description which is difficult to understand

[aurelienr]

Yes, but when ordering, please make sure they include KickStart in your quote, it should be quoted as $0 though or have a 100% discount applied.  That will save you from having to message me for help later .

I guess you will receive an email because I cannot add licence on distributor like RS/Farnell, and when I try to set a quote on your website for the DMM6500, the Kickstart floating licence is sold at 214€ (I received email confirmation for this price !).....