Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?

[Neper]

That`s my problem: I don't need it but I want it! More digits more accuracy, precision and of course trueness.

Electronics, mostly audio and radio equipment, is just one of my hobbies and the DMM is a only means to an end in this context. 

have you already made a decision on which device you will go for, or which ones now come into close consideration

Given that I'm happy with my Rigol scope, I'm trying to convince myself to spend more than twice my original limit on a Rigol DM3058E. Or maybe a Siglent SDM3045X. No hurry, though...

Ralf

[mawyatt]

@2N3055: I took Keysight, Keithley into consideration, thanks for the details. Also I will have a closer look at Siglent and maybe also the GW-Instek, what do you think?
Regarding calibration: yes I hope those devices are "stable enough", so I don't have to calibrate them over the years and still get good results! I think it should be possible, since im not really running a Lab which needs calibrated devices for any quality and other reasons etc... (Im not selling something or earning my money with devices only with teaching")

In all truthfulness, I would recommend to calibrate it at least ONCE, after 3-5 years. Because whatever you hear even big brands will drift a bit in first 1-2 years. After 3 years they will be mostly stable to few PPMs of whatever it is they mean to be for the rest of their multimeter life..So if you calibrate after 3-5 years, then you might keep really good accuracy for years to come. Stable and better than outside boundaries of specifications. Much better.

Exactly, just look at how good the HP/AG/KS 34401As are today

Best

[tooki]

Because the complexity in a cheap scope is in the software and user interface, while the complexity in a bench DMM is in the bits of hardware deeper in the box.

Thanks a lot for the first comprehensive and sensible explanation I've seen on this subject.

@all others: Thanks for your contributions. My reasons for wanting a bench meter are simple: the real estate on my workbench is very limited, so something to be put higher up is needed. And no, I don't run a calibration lab. 0.1 percent is absolutely fine with me, so I have no need for 6 or more digit resolution and it doesn't ned to be better than the average handheld meter. The functions and precision of those 200 euro DMMs would be fine if it weren't for the terrible software and the unsteady display on higher resistance measurements. Besides, I was shocked to see that they're no better than my 25 year old DMM, supposedly of Taiwanese origin.

Ralf

Hi Ralf,
How far are you from Zurich? My boss just told me we have some old test gear to get rid of, among it a number of Keithley 175 bench meters. I’d rather they go to good homes than in the trash. They’re basic by today’s standards for a bench meter but compare well to a typical handheld. 4.5 digits.

[wizard69]

The problem as I see it is that the common bench top meters these days are built to be high precision devices.   That is there are few bench top meters that are at handheld in their precision, and as a result I think this misses an important segment of the market.   Well in my mind anyways, as it would be nice to have a bench top meter that is equivalent to a handheld DMM as you often don't need high precision.   If you think about it how often do you need 5.5 or 6.5 digits of precision in any measurement, especially on a bench focused on audio work or industrial electronics.   Sometimes safety and a decent to read display is the important thing.

So I have to agree, none of the mainstream manufactures offer a decent low cost bench top.   That leaves a bunch of Chinese manufactures, some you have never heard of, to fill the niche.   Nothing yet from these manufactures is highly refined in my opinion.

The other thing here is people with expectations of high end systems type instrument performance out of anything low cost.    You simply do not get the performance or utility out of things like capacitance and resistance measurements out of these low cost instruments.   On most multimeters, regardless of cost, I consider the capacitance tests to be near worthless and is the reason for LCR meters and other specialized test hardware.   In other words I really believe high expectations often are a problem with low cost and midrange multimeters.   

[Markus2801A]

The problem as I see it is that the common bench top meters these days are built to be high precision devices.   That is there are few bench top meters that are at handheld in their precision, and as a result I think this misses an important segment of the market.   Well in my mind anyways, as it would be nice to have a bench top meter that is equivalent to a handheld DMM as you often don't need high precision.   If you think about it how often do you need 5.5 or 6.5 digits of precision in any measurement, especially on a bench focused on audio work or industrial electronics.   Sometimes safety and a decent to read display is the important thing.

So I have to agree, none of the mainstream manufactures offer a decent low cost bench top.   That leaves a bunch of Chinese manufactures, some you have never heard of, to fill the niche.   Nothing yet from these manufactures is highly refined in my opinion.

The other thing here is people with expectations of high end systems type instrument performance out of anything low cost.    You simply do not get the performance or utility out of things like capacitance and resistance measurements out of these low cost instruments.   On most multimeters, regardless of cost, I consider the capacitance tests to be near worthless and is the reason for LCR meters and other specialized test hardware.   In other words I really believe high expectations often are a problem with low cost and midrange multimeters.   

totally agree, I would say: you get what you pay for :-)

So can we state that

• the cheaper Benchtop devices (in most cases) will not compete to the higher end Handheld units, regarding accuracy and precision.
  
• and if you want higher precision, accuracy and trueness, you have to look for the higher priced brandname tiers?!

[tautech]

That`s my problem: I don't need it but I want it! More digits more accuracy, precision and of course trueness.

Electronics, mostly audio and radio equipment, is just one of my hobbies and the DMM is a only means to an end in this context. 

have you already made a decision on which device you will go for, or which ones now come into close consideration

Given that I'm happy with my Rigol scope, I'm trying to convince myself to spend more than twice my original limit on a Rigol DM3058E. Or maybe a Siglent SDM3045X. No hurry, though...

Ralf

All three SDM models lined up and measuring the same source here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg3651931/#msg3651931

[Markus2801A]

All three SDM models lined up and measuring the same source here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg3651931/#msg3651931

Yes the Siglent SDM3065X looks very promising, do have to dig deeper into reviews of this great unit.
This is indeed a higher priced unit, but not as high as Keysight or Keithley. But I would consider it as high end Benchto-DMM :-)

Tautech is leading me to the "Siglent Side of Measurement" :-) Thanks 

[Neper]

Rigol are having one of their promos with the DM3058E at 439 euros. Siglent have promptly followed suit with their SDM3045X at the same price.

Ralf

[mawyatt]

All three SDM models lined up and measuring the same source here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg3651931/#msg3651931

Yes the Siglent SDM3065X looks very promising, do have to dig deeper into reviews of this great unit.
This is indeed a higher priced unit, but not as high as Keysight or Keithley. But I would consider it as high end Benchto-DMM :-)

Tautech is leading me to the "Siglent Side of Measurement" :-) Thanks 

We have the SDM3065X, Keysight KS34465A, as well as a HP34401A and Agilent 34401A, and are using all of them. We've had the SDM3065A a couple weeks now, unfortunately it was received out of calibration date wise due to COVID which caused shipping/stocking delays but that's another story.

The SDM3065X is quite good and stable with many features similar/copied to/from the KS. It uses the well known LM399 reference, probably the best long term reference outside the LTZ1000 (used in the KS34470A & 3458A), although likely not aged like the KS. We use the LM399 and LTZ1000 as voltage references for precision use, and used these references for comparison of the SDM to the KS, HP and Agilent.

So having actually verified some performance parameters and usage of the SDM3065X against these other established DMMs, I can confidently say the above.

It's not a KS tho, which is more refined, has a brighter and better display, the Trent chart features are much better implemented, the RMS measurement method is superior, as is the core ADC implementation derived from the long history of HP/Agilent superb DMMs.

However, the KS is twice the price of the SDM which must be considered. We purchased the SDM to replace the aging HP34401A, which is losing it's display, not as a KS34465A equivalent.

Anyway, hope this helps from a former "teacher of EE" (adjunct grad school Prof).

Best,

[RoGeorge]

purchased the SDM to replace the aging HP34401A, which is losing it's display

There are a few mods to replace the faded displays with more recent types, e.g.:
https://hackaday.com/2018/08/29/faded-beauty-dmm-gets-an-oled-makeover/
https://github.com/openscopeproject/HP34401a-OLED-FW

[mawyatt]

There are a few mods to replace the faded displays with more recent types, e.g.:
https://hackaday.com/2018/08/29/faded-beauty-dmm-gets-an-oled-makeover/
https://github.com/openscopeproject/HP34401a-OLED-FW

Thanks, we will not entrust the old HP34401A to the dumpster

It will be resurrected with a replacement display or a modified display when time permits, in the meantime the SDM3065X is acting as it's measurement replacement

Best,

[Neper]

My Siglent SDM3045X has arrived today. Just tested the (for me) most important functions and it appears to fit the bill.

Ralf

[MathWizard]

I also have a Siglent DMM and it's great for what I do. No more battery worries, no tipping over a handheld, or wearing out the rotary switch.

But 1 thing tho, is now I really better take the batteries out of my handheld meters, I rarely use them anymore.

[kcbrown]

There are several reasons I prefer a bench meter (in my case, I got the SDM3055, because the price difference between that and the SDM3045X is low enough to justify the extra flexibility of the additional digit):

- It's guaranteed to be within reach of the bench, making it very convenient
- It's very fast.  Handheld meters with comparable speed tend to carry comparable prices
- It's as precise as you need it to be, while still being very fast
- The display is large and very easy to read, more so than most handhelds
- It has useful features that most handhelds don't have, such as an auto-hold mechanism (meaning, you can take your eyes off the meter when performing the measure) with history

Of course, in the case of the SDM3055 I got, the price is higher than most handhelds, but not all.  Many premium handhelds command an even higher price.  For instance, the Keysight U1280 series, the Fluke 289 (and, actually, half the Fluke lineup!), most of Gossen's lineup, etc.  While you might say it's not fair to compare a well-respected Chinese brand bench multimeter to premium brand handhelds, I think it is, because I've not seen a meter by anything other than those premium brands that has the functionality of even the SDM3045X.   And in any case, the comparison here is really between bench multimeters and oscilloscopes, and if you remain within a given brand for both, you'll find that the scope prices almost always at least meet, if not exceed, the bench meter prices.  For instance, the price that a Keysight 34460A meter fetches is about $1100.  That's a 6.5 digit multimeter.  And that's about the same price as their 70 MHz DSOX1204A which is their lowest-end 4 channel scope.   Similarly, the Siglent SDM3045X is $389, while the Siglent SDS1102X-E is $379, and the latter is the very bottom of Siglent's reasonably recent scope lineup.

If you argue that the mission of each meter type (handheld versus bench) is different, you'd be right.  But there's a lot of overlap, especially for lab use.  Bench meters are obviously targeted more directly at lab use.  And while they cost more than cheap handheld meters, they provide more capability for it.  But they certainly don't cost more than most oscilloscopes, really, when you get right down to it.

[marcus h]

Unavailable in Europe unless you want to import one from the US or China.

And what is the problem with that? Order it and it will get delivered.

The purchase and the delivery is usually not the problem.

Ignoring the potential customs hassle (depends entirely on the seller, some have local depots here in Germany) there are a two really big incentives to purchase from a local seller in Germany:

We have several federal laws that empower the customer:
1) The warranty laws are extensive and (in short) the seller has to prove within the first six months that the product wasn't defective. After this period the customer has further 18 month period where he can prove that the product was indeed defective from the start (example: a software error that only manifests itself after some time).
2) Even more powerful: Online(!) customers can return ANY purchase within 14 days - no questions asked. You (usually) only pay for the transport.
Note that these laws apply to "business to private" commercial sales, but not to "private to private" Ebay auctions etc.

The OP obviously made use of 2) twice as per his thread starter posting. He stated his reasons and they boil down to the devices being unfit for his purposes.
With a local seller you simply return the item and get your money back. This works 99.9% of the time and the remaining 0.1% will be cleared in your favor given enough time.

Now, a German court verdict form 2013 says that these laws also apply to foreign sellers who specifically offer their products in Germany (like offering them on the German Ebay website, using German language in their offers etc.).
But we all know that there is sometimes a difference between having a right and enforcing a right - and there are indeed surveys that show that foreign sellers don't honor these laws. They either don't know or don't care.

Example

I casually searched for the Vichy you recommended and there are several sellers on German Ebay for this.
The first Chinese seller I found who actually has stock in Germany (so no customs hassle), has his own return policies.
In this Ebay auction https://www.ebay.de/itm/383673976526 he writes:

Return Terms
1. If you receive defective item, please kindly notify us within 14 days. We will guide you the returning instruction for replacement or refund.
2. If you purchased in improper condition, please NOTE that the sipping and handling fee will not be refund, all return shipping fee should paid by the buyer unless item DOA.
3. We reserve the right to refuse any returns for objective reasons.

These conditions are simply lousy for German customers:
1) He shortens the six month warranty period to 14 days.
2) He changes the right to return to "at his whim".

I don't know if these are common Chinese sales terms but in Germany they won't fly with many customers.
Personally, I would never purchase an expensive item from such a seller but YMMV, of course.

[nctnico]

Unavailable in Europe unless you want to import one from the US or China.

And what is the problem with that? Order it and it will get delivered.

The purchase and the delivery is usually not the problem.

Ignoring the potential customs hassle (depends entirely on the seller, some have local depots here in Germany) there are a two really big incentives to purchase from a local seller in Germany:
Example

I casually searched for the Vichy you recommended and there are several sellers on German Ebay for this.
The first Chinese seller I found who actually has stock in Germany (so no customs hassle), has his own return policies.
In this Ebay auction https://www.ebay.de/itm/383673976526 he writes:

Return Terms
1. If you receive defective item, please kindly notify us within 14 days. We will guide you the returning instruction for replacement or refund.
2. If you purchased in improper condition, please NOTE that the sipping and handling fee will not be refund, all return shipping fee should paid by the buyer unless item DOA.
3. We reserve the right to refuse any returns for objective reasons.

These conditions are simply lousy for German customers:
1) He shortens the six month warranty period to 14 days.
2) He changes the right to return to "at his whim".

I don't know if these are common Chinese sales terms but in Germany they won't fly with many customers.
Personally, I would never purchase an expensive item from such a seller but YMMV, of course.

1) You forget that you usually pay double or tripple compared to the prices on Ebay / Aliexpress if you buy from within the EU. So your warranty comes at a steep price *.

2) Both Ebay and Aliexpress have good warranties for items that arrive broken (=item not as described -> refund) or items that don't arrive. Don't bother with seller's return / warranty services. I don't even read those. I read the feedback for the particular seller instead.

3) Aliexpress isn't stupid; they have already adapted to avoid customs hassle for their customers by taking care of it so the customs hassle argument no longer flies.

Over the years I have saved myself a boatload of money by buying from Ebay / Aliexpress. I never lost money on a unit that arrived broken or didn't arrive at all. I did lose money on a purchase from a local shop which didn't deliver and doesn't pick up the phone or answers emails. So there go your beloved customer protection laws straight out of the window. As an individual customer you have no real power to enforce anything.

* Example: A while ago I bought a vacuum pump to install an AC unit. Cheapest I could find locally was around 180 euro excluding the set with hoses / manifolds. I bought a complete set from Aliexpress for les than 75 euro. The kicker is that in both cases it was exactly the same vacuum pump. Heck, I even sold it second hand with a profit!

PS: The VC8145s I bought a decade ago are still going strong; still using them as my daily driver DMMs. Everything else on my bench got replaced since I bought those but I don't see them going any time soon. I'd probably buy another VC8145 if one of them breaks.

[Doctorandus_P]

Accuracy and resolution are already mentioned as factors that drive up the hardware price. A typical scope with an 8-bit ADC is often no better then 2% deviation.

Another factor that drives up hardware costs is the long term stability and drift. Nobody cares about that for an oscilloscope, while they are important for benchtop DMM's.

On top of that, you also have to consider that you are comparing entry level scopes with high quality DMM's.
You can have a quite good DMM for around EUR1000 while with EUR1000 you are still buying an entry level scope, although those have become extremely good at their job in the last 20 years or so. EUR20.000 for a top quality oscilloscope is no exception.

Just a quick view at batronix, sorting on descending price gives an EUR46000 scope:
https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Keysight-DSOX6004A-6G.html

And if you have a look at some of the stuff Shariariariarrr plays with on the signal path, then prices can be a factor 10 over that.

[nctnico]

Accuracy and resolution are already mentioned as factors that drive up the hardware price. A typical scope with an 8-bit ADC is often no better then 2% deviation.

Another factor that drives up hardware costs is the long term stability and drift. Nobody cares about that for an oscilloscope, while they are important for benchtop DMM's.

Not really. A reference good enough for a 4.5 digit DMM is an off-the-shelve part costing a few euro/dollars. Nothing special about it. But you are right about your comparison on the price point. A DMM with more than 4.5 digits isn't an entry level instrument so you can't compare it to instruments which are in the entry level arena. On top of that it wouldn't surprise me if it turns out that way more oscilloscopes are sold compared to bench DMMs so the NRE of designing a bench DMM is spread over less units.

[tooki]

To an extent, we’ve reached a point where there isn’t much of a market for 4.5 digit (never mind 3.5 digit) bench meters. Those specs are easily met by a handheld meter at fairly low cost, and I suppose that the people who need most of the extra features in bench meters also need more precision. (Or they’ve gone in the direction of specialty test gear, for example power loggers.)

[nctnico]

To an extent, we’ve reached a point where there isn’t much of a market for 4.5 digit (never mind 3.5 digit) bench meters. Those specs are easily met by a handheld meter at fairly low cost, and I suppose that the people who need most of the extra features in bench meters also need more precision. (Or they’ve gone in the direction of specialty test gear, for example power loggers.)

Noooo    For the umpteenth time: bench meters are better for stationary use compared to handhelds. Handhelds are always in the way, have a poor read-out angle, and they auto-shutdown when they are needed the most. I don't need my daily driver DMM to be very accurate. I need it to be stackable so it doesn't clutter the workspace, never run out of batteries, be clearly readable and stay on until I switch it off. For the work I do a handheld meter is super clumsy to use.

[rsjsouza]

Nico, I agree with your reasoning for the use of bench multimeters, but IME I see heaps of portable DMMs (in stationary capacity) on the labs instead of bench units. Perhaps it is a cultural facet of the users or even equipment availability but, with a wide bench (common in the professional labs I know) nobody really cares about space and keep their handhelds around.

[nctnico]

Nico, I agree with your reasoning for the use of bench multimeters, but IME I see heaps of portable DMMs (in stationary capacity) on the labs instead of bench units. Perhaps it is a cultural facet of the users or even equipment availability but, with a wide bench (common in the professional labs I know) nobody really cares about space and keep their handhelds around.

I still assume that is mostly because people don't really think about their workflow.  Momentum can be hard to divert. I used to have several handhelds as well and at some point came to the conclusion that using a handheld is just sub-optimal.

[Fungus]

Just a quick view at batronix, sorting on descending price gives an EUR46000 scope:
https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Keysight-DSOX6004A-6G.html

FTA: "In the past, if you wanted an oscilloscope with exceptional performance, you could expect to pay a premium. Not anymore. "

It doesn't even include the serial decoders or 20Mhz(!) AWG. You can easily add over 10000 Euros in extras that come as standard in $300 'scopes.

[rsjsouza]

I still assume that is mostly because people don't really think about their workflow. 

[2N3055]

Nico, I agree with your reasoning for the use of bench multimeters, but IME I see heaps of portable DMMs (in stationary capacity) on the labs instead of bench units. Perhaps it is a cultural facet of the users or even equipment availability but, with a wide bench (common in the professional labs I know) nobody really cares about space and keep their handhelds around.

I still assume that is mostly because people don't really think about their workflow.  Momentum can be hard to divert. I used to have several handhelds as well and at some point came to the conclusion that using a handheld is just sub-optimal.

I use both.
And I use handhelds on a desk because of workflow.  Sometimes I place it in the middle of device, or right next to it in-between stuff on a desk, so I don't even have to move the head to see it. Bench meter on a shelf above is not really a good ergonomic choice for lot of measurement.
Some time ago I was repairing sound mixing console, and i put multimeter inside open case next to the boards...

They both have their place.

I also keep scopes on a desk too, looking up and down all the time is annoying. I tried keeping them on the shelf, it didn't work for me..