Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?

[rsjsouza]

I don't think you can blame Fluke for making products/pricing that milks money from those accounts.

Nope, but normally manufacturers who do that are ridiculed.

*cough* Apple *cough*

[Bassman59]

I don't think you can blame Fluke for making products/pricing that milks money from those accounts.

Nope, but normally manufacturers who do that are ridiculed.

*cough* Apple *cough*

I dunno, my wife just got a new M1 MacBook Air that cost less and performs better than the Dell laptops her employer is buying for people who prefer Windows machines.

[Bassman59]

Fungus, can you please just let it go? Is it really necessary for you to derail yet another thread with your anti-Fluke crusade? You don’t like it? Don’t buy one.

No, no... you've got it all wrong. I'm not Anti-Fluke. Fluke make some fine meters, I even own a few, including a 50,000 count, dual display Fluke 87-IV.

What I don't get is the deification of a meter that's obviously very overpriced and whose only design criteria is to milk money from corporate/government accounts and is holding back Fluke from producing anything better.

It just doesn't seem that special.

It's not deification. (disclosure: I have owned a Fluke 179 for 20 years. It still works like a champ, no complaints.) It's just recognition that the Fluke 87 is one of those "golden egg" products that every company wishes they could have in their line. Yes, indeed, it's a license to print money.

But here's the thing, Fungus: You're (apparently) an engineer. Wouldn't you LOVE to be able to design a product like the 87, one that sells like hotcakes even though it is "expensive" and as such makes boatloads of money for your employer? You know, the kind of money that keeps a business going though thick and thin, and enables development of other products (really, Fluke's product line is actually quite broad), and, hell, enables them to buy Tektronix?

Or are you a hobbyist who likes to bitch and moan?

[Fungus]

I dunno, my wife just got a new M1 MacBook Air that cost less and performs better than the Dell laptops her employer is buying for people who prefer Windows machines.

Sure, you can pay a fortune for windows machines if you want to. The entry level is much lower though.

It's not deification.

It sort of is.

Question: If you were looking for a "better" meter than the Fluke 87V then what meter would you get?

(nb. A meter that you would actually want to own. The Fluke 289 doesn't count - who wants to own a complex meter that takes ages to "boot up"?)

But here's the thing, Fungus: You're (apparently) an engineer. Wouldn't you LOVE to be able to design a product like the 87, one that sells like hotcakes even though it is "expensive" and as such makes boatloads of money for your employer?

If I had shares in the company, then sure. In practice: Did the designers even get a raise? Pride alone won't get me a new car.

As an "engineer" I might be annoyed if my boss told me I wasn't allowed to try and improve it for the next generation or even try to design another model that was even better.

[nctnico]

Fungus, can you please just let it go? Is it really necessary for you to derail yet another thread with your anti-Fluke crusade? You don’t like it? Don’t buy one.

No, no... you've got it all wrong. I'm not Anti-Fluke. Fluke make some fine meters, I even own a few, including a 50,000 count, dual display Fluke 87-IV.

What I don't get is the deification of a meter that's obviously very overpriced and whose only design criteria is to milk money from corporate/government accounts and is holding back Fluke from producing anything better.

It just doesn't seem that special.

It's not deification. (disclosure: I have owned a Fluke 179 for 20 years. It still works like a champ, no complaints.) It's just recognition that the Fluke 87 is one of those "golden egg" products that every company wishes they could have in their line. Yes, indeed, it's a license to print money.

Well, a big part of the success of Fluke multimeters is salespeople throwing them into the room. Literally. The shock effect and stories still echo in engineering departments up to the point that competitors have Youtubers like Dave make videos to show their product is rugged too in present day. The downside is that sales are not driven so much by innovation but mostly by momentum. A younger generation of engineers is less impressed and likely more interested in price. Fluke seems to be aware though and sells low cost versions in certain markets.

[bdunham7]

Question: If you were looking for a "better" meter than the Fluke 87V then what meter would you get?

(nb. A meter that you would actually want to own. The Fluke 289 doesn't count - who wants to own a complex meter that takes ages to "boot up"?)

Well, "better" in what way?  For general features, the 289 seems fine to me, the boot time is less than it takes me to find the right leads and it does most everything you could ask a handheld DMM to do.  A lot of people probably would want the 189 back--as I said the most requested 'improvement' from actual customers would probably be a discontinued model.  Outside the US I'd probably look at Metrix/Chauvin Arnoux.  But again, what is 'better'?  Suppose I want a 10 year minimum warranty?

[tooki]

Fungus, can you please just let it go? Is it really necessary for you to derail yet another thread with your anti-Fluke crusade? You don’t like it? Don’t buy one.

No, no... you've got it all wrong. I'm not Anti-Fluke. Fluke make some fine meters, I even own a few, including a 50,000 count, dual display Fluke 87-IV.

What I don't get is the deification of a meter that's obviously very overpriced and whose only design criteria is to milk money from corporate/government accounts and is holding back Fluke from producing anything better.

It just doesn't seem that special.

Though I disagree with your opinion, it’s not your opinion as such that I take issue with. I take issue with you jumping on a soapbox about this issue at every opportunity, derailing discussions about other topics to express your opinion about Fluke. It’s not the “what” that bothers me, it’s the “when” and “where”. It doesn’t need to be everywhere, all the time.

[tooki]

I don't think you can blame Fluke for making products/pricing that milks money from those accounts.

Nope, but normally manufacturers who do that are ridiculed.

*cough* Apple *cough*

Gesundheit! Here’s a tissue.

Anyhow, people ridicule Apple for having “high” prices and “style over substance”. What they ignore is that while Apple mostly chooses to not participate in the low end market at all, their prices in the midrange and high end markets are generally competitive. They absolutely have style, but they do have the substance to back it up.

The M1 is a game changer: it’s their entry level computer CPU and wipes the floor with most midrange computers while only sipping homeopathic amounts of electricity. It’s a tremendous technological tour de force.

[Fungus]

A lot of people probably would want the 189 back

Exactly my point: Fluke isn't making the meters that people really want, they're making the meter (singular) that feeds the shareholders.

I don't have a problem with the 98V as a meter, I have a problem with what it represents and the effect it has on the market.

Suppose I want a 10 year minimum warranty?

I'll do that for you, no problem, but why would you want to pay through the nose for such a "feature"? Do you also buy $435 hammers and $640 toilet seats?

My Brymen has a 3 year warranty, I've seen Joe's Brymen-torturing videos. I figure if it my meter goes for three years without any problems then it's going to outlast me.

If it doesn't? A complete kit of replacement parts (including a case, a screen, a PCB and a set of fuses and leads) costs about $165.

[Fungus]

I take issue with you jumping on a soapbox about this issue at every opportunity, derailing discussions about other topics to express your opinion about Fluke. It’s not the “what” that bothers me, it’s the “when” and “where”. It doesn’t need to be everywhere, all the time.

Huh? How many threads have I ever mentioned this in?

This was a thread specifically about how testgear prices are justified by their manufacturers and the topic came up.

[bdunham7]

Anyhow, people ridicule Apple for having “high” prices and “style over substance”. What they ignore is that while Apple mostly chooses to not participate in the low end market at all, their prices in the midrange and high end markets are generally competitive. They absolutely have style, but they do have the substance to back it up.

That is if they actually offer the feature(s) that one wants.  Unfortunately, they have chosen to forgo offering the things I insist on all to comply with their style directives and 'vision'. 

[Bassman59]

I dunno, my wife just got a new M1 MacBook Air that cost less and performs better than the Dell laptops her employer is buying for people who prefer Windows machines.

Sure, you can pay a fortune for windows machines if you want to. The entry level is much lower though.

You can pay $500 for a Windows toy you'll throw away in a year, or $250 for a Chromebook, or you can pay $899 for the M1 MacBook Air and enjoy much better performance than the $899 Windows laptops.

I realize you're anti-Apple but clearly you don't know anything about their products. But that doesn't stop you from making ridiculous statements about them!

It's not deification.

It sort of is.

Question: If you were looking for a "better" meter than the Fluke 87V then what meter would you get?

(nb. A meter that you would actually want to own. The Fluke 289 doesn't count - who wants to own a complex meter that takes ages to "boot up"?)

I told you in my post. I have a Fluke 179. Is it "better" than the 87? As my sophomore professor of physics would say, "DON'T KNOW! DON'T CARE!" The 179 meets my needs, and has done so for a long time.

On the bench at work I have a Fluke 175. It was bought prior to my arrival. It does what I need it to do.

The production people have a calibrated 6 1/2 voltmeter for some particular use. It was bought for that use. Someone researched it and bought it.

But here's the thing, Fungus: You're (apparently) an engineer. Wouldn't you LOVE to be able to design a product like the 87, one that sells like hotcakes even though it is "expensive" and as such makes boatloads of money for your employer?

If I had shares in the company, then sure. In practice: Did the designers even get a raise? Pride alone won't get me a new car.

Who knows? Maybe they did. Maybe they're now the managers.

As an "engineer" I might be annoyed if my boss told me I wasn't allowed to try and improve it for the next generation or even try to design another model that was even better.

Do you tell your boss what products the company should be designing or putting into production, or does your boss tell you what to design and put into production? This is why I think you're a hobbyist.

What if Fluke has already asked their customers what they like and don't like about the 87 and the consensus was "it's fine as it is?" What if instead of changing the 87 they put whatever features customers suggested into new products? You know, like logging in the 287, or the detachable face in the 233 or whatever?

Maybe the Fluke measurement-tools division has decided that its engineers are better utilized designing products in new areas? Again, the Fluke product line is more than just handheld meters.

[Bassman59]

Anyhow, people ridicule Apple for having “high” prices and “style over substance”. What they ignore is that while Apple mostly chooses to not participate in the low end market at all, their prices in the midrange and high end markets are generally competitive. They absolutely have style, but they do have the substance to back it up.

That is if they actually offer the feature(s) that one wants.  Unfortunately, they have chosen to forgo offering the things I insist on all to comply with their style directives and 'vision'.

On what do you insist? Be specific.

[bdunham7]

My Brymen has a 3 year warranty, I've seen Joe's Brymen-torturing videos. I figure if it my meter goes for three years without any problems then it's going to outlast me.

If it doesn't? A complete kit of replacement parts (including a case, a screen, a PCB and a set of fuses and leads) costs about $165.

As has been said repeatedly, the situation is significantly different in the US for both pricing and warranty.

[Fungus]

They absolutely have style, but they do have the substance to back it up.

(I'll risk a single post on this off-topic subject...)

Apple only works if you fit their customer profile. If you want to run "interesting" software or open it up to add RAM or change the disk then you're SOL.

Plus: Most of the people who don't need to run any "interesting" software are probably better off with a Chromebook. Chromebooks run ARM processors have very long battery, generally better software than MacOS (all the google stuff for mail/productivity), and are pretty much maintenance and hassle free (it's all web/cloud based).

PS: If it's just the "style" you want then you can get a Windows laptop with Macbook look/feel for quarter of the price of a Macbook these days. Put a big colorful sticker on the lid where the Apple logo usually goes and nobody will ever know, they'll just think you're one of those rebels who covers up the Apple logo.

Me? They'll pry my Panasonic Toughbook out of my cold, dead fingers...

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Edit: I just checked (because it's not something I'm up to date on) and there's Windows/AMD Ryzen laptops with comparable battery life to Apple's M1

https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/all-day-strong-longest-lasting-notebooks

[Fungus]

As has been said repeatedly, the situation is significantly different in the US for both pricing and warranty.

I'll concede that point 

Getting a genuine Brymen at Brymen prices isn't as easy in the USA. Whatever deal they made with Greenlee isn't helping their cause.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/usa-how-to-purchase-brymen-dmm-(greenlee-brand-or-other)/

[bdunham7]

On what do you insist? Be specific.

For a laptop in my case, dual removable HDD/SSD (actual dual discrete units that I can take out and hold one in each hand separately), at least two and preferably four actual type A USB-ports backwards compatible both physically and electrically all the way back to USB 1.0 without any adapters or dongles.  Strong preferences include HDMI and DVI/Thunderbolt connections without adapters or dongles.   I also like a standard wired LAN port--and have one--but that wouldn't necessarily be a deal killer. 

Of course I also want things like 32GB, Type-C USB, fast GPU, large hi-res screen, etc--but the Macs do offer those.  And needless to say, my laptop is not sleek, light or small--which doesn't bother me in the least given the way that I use it.  However, it would apparently kill the stylish Mac designers to offer a large, clunky model like that.

[Fungus]

What if Fluke has already asked their customers what they like and don't like about the 87 and the consensus was "it's fine as it is?"

No problem, some people don't want change.

What if instead of changing the 87 they put whatever features customers suggested into new products?

Perfect!

...except they'll never make a product that directly competes with the 87V. Any meter ever made by Fluke will always be missing some essential feature (usually TRMS or uA) just to keep the 87V money flowing.

[Fungus]

needless to say, my laptop is not sleek, light or small--which doesn't bother me in the least given the way that I use it.

We agree on something! If I'm moving my laptop around I want small overall volume and some screw holes to bolt a decent shoulder strap to it. Easily available spare parts is good. A battery that slides out of a little door on the side? Also good.

Sleekness, minimal thickness, an accessory bag full of adapter cables to connect anything at all to it? Not on the list.

(OK, that's two posts... but being in agreement with bdunham7 couldn't be passed up)

[rsjsouza]

*cough* Apple *cough*

I dunno, my wife just got a new M1 MacBook Air that cost less and performs better than the Dell laptops her employer is buying for people who prefer Windows machines.

I don't doubt it. The M1 is a newer kid on the block that finally gives a run for the competition. The issue is for how long they duped their users by worsening the quality of their product.

I don't think you can blame Fluke for making products/pricing that milks money from those accounts.

Nope, but normally manufacturers who do that are ridiculed.

*cough* Apple *cough*

Gesundheit! Here’s a tissue.

Anyhow, people ridicule Apple for having “high” prices and “style over substance”. What they ignore is that while Apple mostly chooses to not participate in the low end market at all, their prices in the midrange and high end markets are generally competitive. They absolutely have style, but they do have the substance to back it up.

The M1 is a game changer: it’s their entry level computer CPU and wipes the floor with most midrange computers while only sipping homeopathic amounts of electricity. It’s a tremendous technological tour de force.

As I mentioned to Bassman above: the M1 is the new kid that seems to be blowing away the competition - kudos to Apple for pulling that off. However, after how many years (six or seven) they have been shooting their own foot with crappy keyboards, removing function keys (gimmicky touch bar), terrible CPU throttling, eroding reliability, removing useful ports in favour of a plethora of dongles, terrible service, etc.? They have been ridiculed but glorified by a great part of their user base. Oh well... One of the voices of reason (Rick Beato) can be seen in this funny rant that dates back from the eye of the hurricane days of crapification.

https://youtu.be/MKJjLwMUPJI

(oh, and don't forget to watch the follow up video with the criticism from the fanboys)

https://youtu.be/3Dp_bGu92Sk

I guess this is derailed enough from my end, but Fungus' point can be applied to other areas as well.

[mawyatt]

(I'll risk a single post on this off-topic subject...)

Apple only works if you fit their customer profile. If you want to run "interesting" software or open it up to add RAM or change the disk then you're SOL.

You obviously haven't a clue about Apple, or many things it's seems. Have you ever owned an Apple and spent the time to understand and use it...doubt it!!

We'll I was a PC person only....... until ~2011 when I got fed up with the constant "Blue Screen of Death" and purchased a MacBook Pro. My only regret is why did I wait so long suffering with the Microsoft OS!!!

BTW I easily changed the SSD in the MBP a number of years ago, also easily added a SSD to the Mac Pro we have. Also have Windows 10 running in bootcamp when needed, since some SW won't run on the Mac OS.

Let's not forget about all the built-in utilities the Mac OS possesses (and they work and get updated with the OS), or not requiring all sorts of virus protection.

I value my time, so don't want to waste it on non-productive things, however YMMV!!

Best,

[kcbrown]

Fungus, can you please just let it go? Is it really necessary for you to derail yet another thread with your anti-Fluke crusade? You don’t like it? Don’t buy one.

No, no... you've got it all wrong. I'm not Anti-Fluke. Fluke make some fine meters, I even own a few, including a 50,000 count, dual display Fluke 87-IV.

What I don't get is the deification of a meter that's obviously very overpriced and whose only design criteria is to milk money from corporate/government accounts and is holding back Fluke from producing anything better.

It's overpriced only if you exclude the reputation factor.

A reputation like Fluke's takes decades to build.  It's not something that relatively new players can replicate until they've been around the same amount of time and have produced solid, reliable products for all that time, with few if any failures for the entire time.

It just doesn't seem that special.

The meter itself isn't.  The reputation behind it is.  And for some people, that matters a lot.  For people (like electricians) that need their equipment to work No Matter What and also need them to fail safely, the reputation of the company is of paramount importance, because it instills a confidence in the equipment that can't be had any other way.  Now add to that the fact that the model they're looking at (the 87V) has been the same for many years, and thus has by itself built a long and (at least for the most part) exemplary track record, and you end up having to ask why Fluke would want to change it.

[james_s]

The meter itself isn't.  The reputation behind it is.  And for some people, that matters a lot.  For people (like electricians) that need their equipment to work No Matter What and also need them to fail safely, the reputation of the company is of paramount importance, because it instills a confidence in the equipment that can't be had any other way.  Now add to that the fact that the model they're looking at (the 87V) has been the same for many years, and thus has by itself built a long and (at least for the most part) exemplary track record, and you end up having to ask why Fluke would want to change it.

Exactly. The meter is good, it's not spectacular, it's not the only good meter out there, not by a long shot, but it's good, very good, and it has a reputation proven by time. When you buy one you know exactly what you're going to get. You know it will be good and you know the company that makes it will stand behind it. If it breaks they will service it, often even years later. How many companies can you think of that are interested or even willing to service a product they sold 30 years ago? Not many I bet, and there is value in that. A few hundred bucks is peanuts in the grand scheme of things. The way so many companies constantly update their products and constantly add unnecessary features is exactly the problem with so many of them, everything is a moving target, you never quite know what you're getting. The product they released 5 years ago that was fantastic is forgotten and unsupported. The latest version who knows.

[james_s]

Apple only works if you fit their customer profile. If you want to run "interesting" software or open it up to add RAM or change the disk then you're SOL.

Plus: Most of the people who don't need to run any "interesting" software are probably better off with a Chromebook. Chromebooks run ARM processors have very long battery, generally better software than MacOS (all the google stuff for mail/productivity), and are pretty much maintenance and hassle free (it's all web/cloud based).

My employer issued laptop is a Macbook, there are things I don't like about it but overall it works very well. I'm not sure what you mean by "interesting" software but it runs everything I need to do my job. The OS is slick and polished but it has Unix under the hood, there's a fully functional bash terminal with all the command line utilities you'd expect on any *nix system. While I personally like to have the ability to add RAM and upgrade things, the vast majority of consumers don't care about this, probably 95% of all laptops sold go from the retail box to the recycle bin in their stock original configuration having never been upgraded in any way. Most people just simply do not care, when it comes time to upgrade they buy a whole new machine. Apple may have started that trend but they are far from alone anymore, there are a great many laptops now that are not upgradeable. Frankly we have a lot less problems with the Macs than we do with the PCs at work. There are a bunch of Dells with Windows 10 and they are constantly having issues.

[Fungus]

Exactly. The meter is good, it's not spectacular, it's not the only good meter out there, not by a long shot, but it's good, very good, and it has a reputation proven by time. When you buy one you know exactly what you're going to get. You know it will be good and you know the company that makes it will stand behind it. If it breaks they will service it, often even years later. How many companies can you think of that are interested or even willing to service a product they sold 30 years ago? Not many I bet, and there is value in that. A few hundred bucks is peanuts in the grand scheme of things. The way so many companies constantly update their products and constantly add unnecessary features is exactly the problem with so many of them, everything is a moving target, you never quite know what you're getting. The product they released 5 years ago that was fantastic is forgotten and unsupported. The latest version who knows.

None of that explains why Fluke hasn't ever produced the "spectacular" meter instead of carefully tiptoeing around the 87V so as not to disturb it.