Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?

[james_s]

For me, Coke Zero "competes" with Diet Coke and maybe Diet Pepsi--I grab whichever one is there.  Regular Coke isn't even a option I consider.  I'm not a big consumer of it, but I would guess that most diet cola consumers act roughly the same.  Perhaps I'm wrong.

I'll drink any one of them if available and I either need a caffeine boost (coffee tastes absolutely vile to me) or I'm craving the fizzy bite. Regular Coke tastes a bit too sweet to me and leaves a gross sugary film on my teeth, Coke Zero is very similar but without the icky film. I usually chose Diet Coke because it has the fizziness, a bit of caffeine and to me it tastes reasonably good but I am not passionate about it. I'm not fond of Pepsi, some people swear it tastes just the same but I find it tastes even sweeter than regular Coke. 

[Fungus]

Fungus, I think you miss the fact, that buying a fluke 87V is in many cases the cheapest option. Not for you the hobbyist, but for a company.

At some point even "companies" have to realize that 100xFluke=$45,000 and 100xAmprobe=$17,000 

[doppelgrau]

Well, why should a chemical plant buy 100 of these, they need one or two for their maintenance electricians...

[Gyro]

Who mentioned a chemical plant?  - what about a decent sized electronics lab.

[doppelgrau]

As said from other before, electronic labs are not the (core) target group.
More industrial application, that's also the reason why fluke offers DMMs that are ATEX (Zone 1 and 2) certified.

[james_s]

We had 2 or 3 Fluke meters at the last place I worked that did hardware, they were some of the cheapest tools in the lab. I think the HDMI analyzer I used regularly cost nearly $100k. 500 bucks for a meter is peanuts for a large company, you could easily spend more than that in a single engineer's salary searching for a cheaper meter. I don't really even understand the discussion of cost here, we're not talking a $20 tool vs a $20,000 tool, it's $450 vs maybe $250, that's nothing. And that's ignoring the fact that the slightly higher price buys you the reputation and support.

[Bassman59]

Fungus, I think you miss the fact, that buying a fluke 87V is in many cases the cheapest option. Not for you the hobbyist, but for a company.

And this is the crux of this biscuit.

Fungus is a hobbyist.

I've made that assertion a couple of times in this thread and he's never refuted it. It's good to see others acknowledge this.

And he has been engaging the professionals for how many posts now about this nonsense? He's a troll, nothing more.

Next.

[bdunham7]

At some point even "companies" have to realize that 100xFluke=$45,000 and 100xAmprobe=$17,000 

I would be willing to bet that the main reason a company might switch to Amprobe, Greenlee or the like is that they are less attractive to thieves.  Other than that, for an organization large enough to need that many meters, the money is peanuts considering the warranty and the perceptions of the employees--even if the devices themselves were actually equivalent.

[Trader]

This thread is just going around in circles, frankly it's starting to look like someone who is just trolling and not really listening to any of the replies.

For me, Coke Zero "competes" with Diet Coke and maybe Diet Pepsi--I grab whichever one is there.  Regular Coke isn't even a option I consider.  I'm not a big consumer of it, but I would guess that most diet cola consumers act roughly the same.  Perhaps I'm wrong.

I'll drink any one of them if available and I either need a caffeine boost (coffee tastes absolutely vile to me) or I'm craving the fizzy bite. Regular Coke tastes a bit too sweet to me and leaves a gross sugary film on my teeth, Coke Zero is very similar but without the icky film. I usually chose Diet Coke because it has the fizziness, a bit of caffeine and to me it tastes reasonably good but I am not passionate about it. I'm not fond of Pepsi, some people swear it tastes just the same but I find it tastes even sweeter than regular Coke.

WTF

[Trader]

Fungus, I think you miss the fact, that buying a fluke 87V is in many cases the cheapest option. Not for you the hobbyist, but for a company.

At some point even "companies" have to realize that 100xFluke=$45,000 and 100xAmprobe=$17,000 

I think the topic is about comparing the characteristics and features of some DMMs more expensive than a decent Scope.

IMHO, an excellent brand DMM (Keithley, Fluke, Keysight, Gossen, Brymen, Chauvin Arnoux, Hioki) is ALWAYS cheaper than a Scope from another excellent brand. And a hobbyist brand Scope could be cheaper than an excellent brand DMM.

So, this price inconsistency ($DMM > $Scope) is not related to the instrument, but the brand quality, like R&D, Components, References, Construction, Calibration, Safety, and Warranty like Fluke Lifetime Warranty and "indirectly" Keysight lifetime warranty, etc.

[james_s]

I would be willing to bet that the main reason a company might switch to Amprobe, Greenlee or the like is that they are less attractive to thieves.  Other than that, for an organization large enough to need that many meters, the money is peanuts considering the warranty and the perceptions of the employees--even if the devices themselves were actually equivalent.

That is a worthwhile advantage in many cases. I know guys who bought the Harbor Freight inverter generator instead of a Honda primarily because those Honda generators are so popular with thieves. I bought the generic storage cover for mine instead of the official one that is emblazoned with the Honda logo for the same reason.

[bdunham7]

WTF...

I think the topic is about comparing the characteristics and features of some DMMs more expensive than a decent Scope.

Sir, this is EEVBlog.

[rsjsouza]

WTF...

I think the topic is about comparing the characteristics and features of some DMMs more expensive than a decent Scope.

Sir, this is EEVBlog.

Indeed.

The original issue is too simple: :-P

- Top of the line of DMMs: Keysight 3458A @ US$12,000.00
- Top of the line of oscilloscopes: LeCroy Labmaster 10-100Zi @ US$1,000,000.00 (?)

[Trader]

WTF...

I think the topic is about comparing the characteristics and features of some DMMs more expensive than a decent Scope.

Sir, this is EEVBlog.

Indeed.

The original issue is too simple: :-P

- Top of the line of DMMs: Keysight 3458A @ US$12,000.00
- Top of the line of oscilloscopes: LeCroy Labmaster 10-100Zi @ US$1,000,000.00 (?)

LabMaster 10-100Zi 100 is 100 GHz bandwidth and 240 GS/s sample rate,  Long Memory – up to 1.5 Gpts/Ch

Keysight UXR1104A is 110 GHz, 4-channel, Max Sample Rate: 256 GSa/s, Max Memory Depth: 2 Gpts max, 200 Mpts standard, Minimum Rise/Fall Time: 5.6ps (10-90%), 3.9ps (20-80%)

"The 2-channel 110 GHz model supposedly lists for around $1.3 Million", ">$1M for the 110 GHz versions. In general, 4 channel scopes are 20-40% more than their 2 channel counterparts."

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/uxr1104a-infiniium-uxr-series-oscilloscope-110-ghz-4-channels-price/msg1839923/#msg1839923

[joeqsmith]

I'll sell you any one of my personal oscilloscopes for $2,000,000.00 USD if it would make you feel better.  Buyers choice.   This week only, two for the price of one!!  Buy now before supplies run out!

[james_s]

WTF...

I think the topic is about comparing the characteristics and features of some DMMs more expensive than a decent Scope.

Sir, this is EEVBlog.

Indeed.

The original issue is too simple: :-P

Have we not beat the original issue to death by now? Is there anything more that can be added to it without just going around in circles? It's pretty typical for threads to wander off on tangents, as long as the original question has been answered I don't see the problem with it.

[james_s]

I'll sell you any one of my personal oscilloscopes for $2,000,000.00 USD if it would make you feel better.  Buyers choice.   This week only, two for the price of one!!  Buy now before supplies run out!

Wow, not sure I can pass up a deal like that, just let me search my sofa for loose change.

[Trader]

I'll sell you any one of my personal oscilloscopes for $2,000,000.00 USD if it would make you feel better.  Buyers choice.   This week only, two for the price of one!!  Buy now before supplies run out!

I'm not sure about the scopes, but how much for your modified DMMs? 

Could you make a DT830 safe for 14KV?

[Fungus]

I don't really even understand the discussion of cost here, we're not talking a $20 tool vs a $20,000 tool, it's $450 vs maybe $250, that's nothing. And that's ignoring the fact that the slightly higher price buys you the reputation and support.

That's true, the cost is really secondary. The main point was why Fluke is so stagnated.

Where's the meters that persuade people like me to part with $450? Why doesn't Fluke have any ongoing R&D?

A refresh of the 87V every decade or so doesn't seem out of line, nor does a new model every now and again.

[Fungus]

Fungus is a hobbyist.

I've made that assertion a couple of times in this thread and he's never refuted it. It's good to see others acknowledge this.

Was there anybody here who didn't know that?

[Kleinstein]

The Fluke 87 is not made for high accurcy or the extra ranges a DMM could offer. It is bought for robustness and safety in every day work around mains voltage. It does the job well and there is little need to change much. So why change a product that still sells well and custumers want it that way - points to improve may be battery life or even more robustmess, if they find ways to do it. Why should they change Coco cola ?

Fluke does have have other products too and they do bring out new ones too, just not a new 87 every year.

For the sope and DMM it really depends on what you count as a decent one. For many jobs a $200 bench meter is well good enough, and there are a few for this price. The scopes much below the Rigol1054 are quite limited even for more hobby use.

I still think that if you look at an entry level scope in the $400-600 range , you get quite a bit more hardware than in a comparable or slightly higher prices bench DMM (e.g. Sigilent 3045).  Competition and the numbers made make some products quite cheap and others quite expensive.
As far as I see it the market for budget bench DMMs is relatively small, as they have the handheld meters as an alternative.

[kcbrown]

Where's the meters that persuade people like me to part with $450? Why doesn't Fluke have any ongoing R&D?

Fluke does have ongoing R&D.  Have you not seen any of the new products they've released?   Like the 377 FC or 378 FC?  Or the PTi120?   Or the 190 Series III?

Now, those products might not be traditional multimeter products, but so what?  Meters just don't need to be changed all that often.  The things they need to do are well-defined and well-understood.

A refresh of the 87V every decade or so doesn't seem out of line, nor does a new model every now and again.

The meter we all know you love and crave, the 87V MAX, was released in 2019. 

The 279FC was released in 2016.   The 787B and 789 were released in 2016.

Fluke isn't stagnating.  The nature of the market (particularly Fluke's) is relatively stagnant.  What in the world would make you believe otherwise?

[Fungus]

The meter we all know you love and crave, the 87V MAX, was released in 2019. 

Nope. The Max no use at all to me, they reduced the diode test voltage to something tiny compared to the 87V.

(As I said earlier: They're not identical electrical specs, which undermines the "Fluke 87V is untouchable!" argument)

[Fungus]

The 787B and 789 were released in 2016.

The manual for those says (c) 2002

https://dam-assets.fluke.com/s3fs-public/789_____umeng0400.pdf

Fluke's most recent meters might actually be the Asia-only meters. The manual for those says (c) 2014

https://dam-assets.fluke.com/s3fs-public/151718__umeng0000.pdf

[kcbrown]

The meter we all know you love and crave, the 87V MAX, was released in 2019. 

Nope. The Max no use at all to me, they reduced the diode test voltage to something tiny compared to the 87V.

Hence the grin ...