Author Topic: EEVblog #306 - Jim Williams Pulse Generator  (Read 295383 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Electro Fan

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3197
Testing on Tek 2467/65
« Reply #575 on: October 08, 2015, 01:46:10 am »
Anyone out there with a Jim Williams type pulse generator and either a Tek 2467 or a Tek 2465 that would be up for checking to see what rise time, fall time, width, and frequency measurements you get on your scope?  Thx, EF
 

Offline mtdoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3575
  • Country: us
Re: Testing on Tek 2467/65
« Reply #576 on: October 08, 2015, 10:02:34 am »
Anyone out there with a Jim Williams type pulse generator and either a Tek 2467 or a Tek 2465 that would be up for checking to see what rise time, fall time, width, and frequency measurements you get on your scope?  Thx, EF

Can't do it now, but I should be able to this weekend.
 

Online Electro Fan

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3197
Re: Testing on Tek 2467/65
« Reply #577 on: October 08, 2015, 09:41:37 pm »
Anyone out there with a Jim Williams type pulse generator and either a Tek 2467 or a Tek 2465 that would be up for checking to see what rise time, fall time, width, and frequency measurements you get on your scope?  Thx, EF

Can't do it now, but I should be able to this weekend.

Thanks - I found that when you use the auto measurement function the scope takes over and gives you a measurement (I got 570ps for rise time) but it wants to change the waveform display to it's preferred format.

I found that using the X10 mag and the positioning controls I could get a better looking (more relevant/insightful) waveform.  I used the variable voltage feature to line up (what I thought was) the bottom and top on 0% and 100% and then used the 10% and 90% markings to position the cursors which displayed the measure rise timed as being 520ps (0.52ns). 

In the specs for the 2467B Tektronix gives a rise time of 875ps.  The rate Tektronix spec of 400MHz corresponds to a period of 2.5ns.  Using the formula of BW = 0.35 / Tr gives a rise time of the same 875ps as specified by Tektronix. 

I have tried inputting signals higher than 400MHz into the 2467B and found that the frequency counter will hang in there until well above 600MHz - which leads me to believe that other parts of the scope can exceed the specs by up to 50%.  Using the 50% factor would indicate that perhaps the scope can really measure better than the 875ps for rise time - possibly to 583ps or maybe better.  Let's say the scope can actually measure to 500ps.  When we get a reading such as 520ps is that measuring the rise time of the Jim Williams-type pulse generator (which I think might have been designed to achieve a 270ps rise time) or is the scope displaying a combination of what the pulse generator is doing plus what the scope is capable of doing?  (Maybe what the scope displays is simply it's own best performance which is masking what the faster pulse generator is doing?)  Not sure if I phrased this right....  Thanks   
« Last Edit: October 08, 2015, 09:46:56 pm by Electro Fan »
 

Offline Howardlong

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5317
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #306 - Jim Williams Pulse Generator
« Reply #578 on: October 08, 2015, 10:42:34 pm »
Is that really the rise time? From the trace, I'm not sure that the vertical ever gets the chance to reach the peak before it returns.

You can extend the pulse with a foot of RG174 open ended stub in parallel with the cap.

I found the Y goes a bit non linear too, even adjusting the Y pos up and down alters the pulse shape somewhat.


(this pulse generator plus 20dB pad measures 340ps on a 1GHz Agilent 7000 and 360ps on s 600MHz Agilent 54831D running in equivalent time.)




 

Online Electro Fan

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3197
Re: EEVblog #306 - Jim Williams Pulse Generator
« Reply #579 on: October 09, 2015, 12:12:46 am »
Howard, What would keep the pulse from reaching it's peak and shorten the time before the fall?

(It does look somewhat similar to the shape shown in the video.... but maybe I'm missing something....)

Thanks, EF

Updates:

A quick scan for others who have gone down similar paths found this:
http://www.i9t.net/fast-pulse/fast-pulse.html

- seems like on EEV and elsewhere some JW pulses look kind of pointy and some have flat tops....  :-//

Also found this - seems like the author made one version (MK-I) that was substantially per J. Williams and a second version (MK-II) that modified the original design to add "a stripline charge capacitor to lengthen the pulse so there would be a nice plateau at the top"
http://www.siliconvalleygarage.com/projects/picosecond-pulser.html

The plot thickens.  Found this:
http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms/Elec_Pulse.html
"Two designs are given by Jim Williams of Linear Technology: one in AN47, High Speed Techniques, pp.93-95, and more of a "luxury model" in AN94, The Taming Of The Slew. Both of these are available for download from Linear Technology."
http://www.linear.com/designtools/app_notes.php

Found this:
http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/application-note/an47fa.pdf
which included a scope trace shown below (that looks kind of "pointy")
... still looking for the "luxury model" in AN94...

Getting closer:
http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/application-note/an94f.pdf
- I think the answer (or part of it) is in here but I need some help from the many much more knowledgeable EEVers to glean it from this document.

In the meantime, I found one more item that gives a sense for Jim Williams - fourth image below.  He was prolific and had a sense of humor, for sure  :-+ :-+

Think I found it:
'The 10pF capacitor supplies the initial pulse response, with the charge lines prolonged discharge contributing the pulse body. The 40" charge line length forms an output pulse width about 12ns in duration'

Pulse Width Set with Charge Lines

Figure 8. Variable Delay Triggers a Subnanosecond Rise Time Pulse Generator. Charge Line at Q5’s Collector Determines
»10 Nanosecond Output Width. Output Pulse Occurance is Settable from Before-to-After Trigger Output
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 02:11:07 am by Electro Fan »
 

Offline Jay_Diddy_B

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2733
  • Country: ca
Re: EEVblog #306 - Jim Williams Pulse Generator
« Reply #580 on: October 09, 2015, 02:01:22 am »
Hi,

The there are two kinds of Jim Williams pulse generators. The first kind has a capacitor attached to the collector of the avalanche transistor. This type produces the peaky waveform.

In the second kind, the capacitor is replaced by a transmission line. The transmission is either a piece of coax or it can be placed in the PCB artwork.

During the time Free_Electron was developing the project in this thread, I was working on my version which used a transmission line. The final version can be found in this post:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/transmission-line-avalanche-pulse-generator/msg606142/#msg606142

I spent a long time getting to this performance.



At some point free_electron modified his design to incorporate the transmission line:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/transmission-line-avalanche-pulse-generator/msg185694/#msg185694

With the transmission line, the pulse width is twice the electrical length of the line.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B
 

Online Electro Fan

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3197
Re: EEVblog #306 - Jim Williams Pulse Generator
« Reply #581 on: October 09, 2015, 02:14:15 am »
Ok, I think we just contributed to moving toward a doubling of the installed base.

Some EEVers who thought they already had a Jim Williams Avalanche Pulse Generator now might need at least one more:  :-+ :-+
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 02:23:41 am by Electro Fan »
 

Online Electro Fan

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3197
Re: EEVblog #306 - Jim Williams Pulse Generator
« Reply #582 on: October 09, 2015, 02:43:50 am »
Jay_Diddy_B,

I saw in the specs there was an 11801 (maybe an A version?) and maybe B and C versions with specs that were in the range of 28-7ps rise times?!  Amazing.

If a scope had a rise time spec of 30ps and a pulse generator had a rise time of 100ps, would the scope show the rise time to be 100ps, or would it add it's own "latency?" and show the measured rise time to be 130ps?  Thanks, EF
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 02:46:48 am by Electro Fan »
 

Offline Jay_Diddy_B

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2733
  • Country: ca
Re: EEVblog #306 - Jim Williams Pulse Generator
« Reply #583 on: October 09, 2015, 02:57:29 am »
Hi,

The scope is being used with a SD24 sampling head. This has a rise time of 17.5ps (20 GHz of BW).

http://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/SD-24


If you have a 100ps rise time generator and 100ps rise time scope the displayed rise time is

Rise time displayed = sqrt (100ps2 + 100p2) = 141ps

working backwards

I have a displayed rise time of 91ps and a scope rise time of 17.5ps

generator rise time = sqrt (91ps2 - 17.5ps2) = 89ps

since my scope is 5 times faster than the generator it gives an accurate reading of the rise time.

Similar to measure a scope rise time you need a signal that is 4 or 5 times faster than the scope.

How fast is 90ps ?

The speed of light is 3 x 108 ms-1

The speed of propagation on FR4 board is about 0.66 times the speed of light so 2 x 108 ms-1

Multiply by the rise time 90 x 10-12

And you get the signal would travel

2 X108 x 90 x 10-12 = 0.018 metres, 18 mm (3/4 of an inch)

So you can visualize a wave.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 03:09:00 am by Jay_Diddy_B »
 

Online Electro Fan

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3197
Re: EEVblog #306 - Jim Williams Pulse Generator
« Reply #584 on: October 09, 2015, 04:18:05 am »
Thanks for the formulas - I was able to follow your first example

Rise time displayed = sqrt (100ps2 + 100p2) = 141ps

and your second example

generator rise time = sqrt (91ps2 - 17.5ps2) = 89ps

but I'm still lost somewhere.

What would you think would be the displayed rise time for a scope with a rise time of 875ps and a generator with a rise time of 270ps?  (These are supposedly the specs on my scope and generator).  If I use the formula in your first example above I get about 916ps - but when doing measurements with my scope the scope is reporting 570ps when using the Auto rise time measurement and 520ps when using the manual cursors.  Not to mention, I can't quite get my head around how a scope could ever show a generator rise time or any rise time faster than it's inherent rise time (ie, 875ps for the 2467B).

Thanks
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 04:25:58 am by Electro Fan »
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21658
  • Country: us
  • Expert, Analog Electronics, PCB Layout, EMC
    • Seven Transistor Labs
Re: EEVblog #306 - Jim Williams Pulse Generator
« Reply #585 on: October 09, 2015, 04:42:38 am »
The exact relation depends upon the type of response the scope has.  For example, the old tube scopes (which usually used distributed amplifiers, which cut off very sharply above their passband) will give a different result to the more gradual passband typical of DSOs.  Which will, in turn, be different depending on how they are peaked -- a lot of the crappier Teks of recent history had this (a ringing step response!!), while the ideal for a scope is a Bessel or approximated Gaussian filter response.

The result is more sensitive to response because an ideal spike has constant amplitude harmonics, while a step waveform has harmonics that drop off inversely.  It's not an ideal way to measure rise time -- since, after all, rise time is defined as the step rise!

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 

Online Electro Fan

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3197
Re: EEVblog #306 - Jim Williams Pulse Generator
« Reply #586 on: October 10, 2015, 05:01:22 am »
The exact relation depends upon the type of response the scope has.  For example, the old tube scopes (which usually used distributed amplifiers, which cut off very sharply above their passband) will give a different result to the more gradual passband typical of DSOs.  Which will, in turn, be different depending on how they are peaked -- a lot of the crappier Teks of recent history had this (a ringing step response!!), while the ideal for a scope is a Bessel or approximated Gaussian filter response.

The result is more sensitive to response because an ideal spike has constant amplitude harmonics, while a step waveform has harmonics that drop off inversely.  It's not an ideal way to measure rise time -- since, after all, rise time is defined as the step rise!

Tim

Tim, that's interesting but obviously the 2467B isn't a tube scope (assuming you are talking about vacuum tubes).

Also, as discussed above, it appears that Jim Williams designed (at least) a couple different pulse generators; the first produced a somewhat "peaky" pulse and the second produced a longer lasting pulse with a "pulse body".

Given that his first and perhaps most famous version produced a "peaky" pulse and that he published a fair amount of data regarding his design and testing it appears that it is very possible to measure such a waveform.

In any event, I'm still trying to figure out why the 2467B shows a rise time of 520-570 picoseconds and how it does that when it's own rise time specification is 875 picoseconds.  EF

 

Offline T3sl4co1l

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21658
  • Country: us
  • Expert, Analog Electronics, PCB Layout, EMC
    • Seven Transistor Labs
Re: EEVblog #306 - Jim Williams Pulse Generator
« Reply #587 on: October 10, 2015, 09:15:35 am »
That was for flavor, not for direct application.

SS analog scopes can fall inbetween; they usually tried to have ample bandwidth in earlier stages (1GHz+), limiting it only where necessary (usually at the vertical driver).  This gives a more gradual (e.g. lower order Bessel) response.  I don't know how common it was to use distributed amps in SS scopes, but if one uses them, expect the same reasoning and tradeoff.

My point was also that a pulse is a different signal, that follows different rules.  A very short (say 100ps) pulse is completely over and done before the output has began to rise; how can you justify the assumptions concerning risetime when such action is present?  A proper step comes, and stays there, until the output has stabilized, it's not darting up and down.

You can't apply the BW = 0.35 / t_r or risetime addition formulas, because those were derived under one set of assumptions, which aren't true here.

The FWHA of a pulse is the most common measure; this I think tends to be more well-behaved, though I don't know if it follows the same rules.

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 

Online Electro Fan

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3197
Re: EEVblog #306 - Jim Williams Pulse Generator
« Reply #588 on: October 10, 2015, 06:36:09 pm »
That was for flavor, not for direct application.

SS analog scopes can fall inbetween; they usually tried to have ample bandwidth in earlier stages (1GHz+), limiting it only where necessary (usually at the vertical driver).  This gives a more gradual (e.g. lower order Bessel) response.  I don't know how common it was to use distributed amps in SS scopes, but if one uses them, expect the same reasoning and tradeoff.

My point was also that a pulse is a different signal, that follows different rules.  A very short (say 100ps) pulse is completely over and done before the output has began to rise; how can you justify the assumptions concerning risetime when such action is present?  A proper step comes, and stays there, until the output has stabilized, it's not darting up and down.

You can't apply the BW = 0.35 / t_r or risetime addition formulas, because those were derived under one set of assumptions, which aren't true here.

The FWHA of a pulse is the most common measure; this I think tends to be more well-behaved, though I don't know if it follows the same rules.

Tim

Thanks for the flavor.

If a rocket goes perfectly straight up 10 miles in 2 seconds but then completely stalls and falls nearly straight back to Earth, we can still say the rocket went up 10 miles in 2 seconds.

I think it's a generally accepted practice to measure rise time independent of the width of a pulse.

From Wikipedia:
"rise time is the time taken by a signal to change from a specified low value to a specified high value. Typically, in analog electronics, these values are 10% and 90% of the step height" - no reference to the duration of the step or pulse width.

Likewise, Dave's video on the Jim Williams pulse generator discusses and measures rise time with a very similarly shaped ("peaky") pulse.  Whether it's 0.35 or 0.4, or somewhere in that vicinity, I think what Dave says at roughly 2:30 in the video is that the formula can be used to calculate the bandwidth of the scope and it seems by math that would imply it can also be used to calculate the rise time of the pulse.

I also noted the reference to Full Width Half Amplitude and I think I understand your suggestion that the nature of some waves makes them more "well-behaved" than others - but at the end of the day we either get a rise time measurement or we don't.  If we do, it might be an accurate measurement or it might not.  Fair.

With all that in mind, back to the original question:  how/why does a 400 MHz oscilloscope with a rise time spec of 875ps measure and display a rise time of 570ps or 520ps on the (admittedly peaky) pulse?  The only thing I can guess (beside the fact that the rise time created by the pulse generator is at least 570ps, and probably faster) is that the scope significantly exceeds it's bandwidth and rise time specifications.  Or maybe it's a bogus measurement - I tend not to think so but it would be good to see some other tests results. 

Still hoping to see others with a Jim Williams type generator and a 2467 or 2465 make some rise time measurements and report the findings.

If others get a similar measurement and if we have reason to believe the 246X is showing accurate measurements, then I'd like to go back to Jay_Diddy_B's formulas and see if we can derive how much of the rise time was contributed by the scope and how much was contributed by the pulse generator.  The goal is to measure the rise time on the generator and a secondary objective is to determine the rise time capability of the scope.  (Obviously, other JW generator designs may produce other results.) 

At the end of the day, I'm just trying to figure out how to measure something through analysis because I don't have high enough performance test equipment to directly measure and display the answer.  It's a challenge and a learning process.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 07:11:22 pm by Electro Fan »
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21658
  • Country: us
  • Expert, Analog Electronics, PCB Layout, EMC
    • Seven Transistor Labs
Re: EEVblog #306 - Jim Williams Pulse Generator
« Reply #589 on: October 10, 2015, 11:43:12 pm »
The answer is simple: it has absolutely nothing to do with the instrument, but the signal.  Perform the measurement correctly (consistently -- measuring the step response with a step!) and you will observe the rated spec of the instrument.

Quite frankly, Dave is most likely following the same rules of thumb as anyone else.  I expect he hasn't, for example, worked out the impulse response and dispersion relations of typical filter types, and derived the rules independently and accurately -- he's much too lazy (= good) of an engineer to do that!  Moreover, given his lack of enthusiasm for higher math(s), he probably doesn't know how to work that out (or very quickly), anyway.  (No offense, if you're reading, Dave -- I hope I'm not underestimating your knowledge level here.)

And to be fair, I don't know either, but, I'm not afraid of working a little calculus to figure things out, and if I were charged with finding it, I feel confident I could.

I guess if you don't have a solid footing in filter and signals theory, and Fourier analysis, there isn't much I can quickly tell you that will convey this, other than to continue to assert that I am right (that the signals are different, and incomparable by the same rule of thumb, which depends upon gross assumptions).  Are you incapable of taking that in confidence?  :-//

As for physical analogies, we can work with that.  Acceleration to velocity is a single pole filter (namely, an ideal integrator), and acceleration with drag is a single pole filter at some frequency (where the cutoff frequency is given by mass and drag coefficient).  Suppose we label acceleration as input, and velocity as output.

The pulse is not simply a "rocket going up", but a proper impulse, such as a rocket engine which burns out much faster than the drag time constant, or, say, the blast wave from an explosion.  The rocket instantaneously accelerates (it's able to, because this is a single pole system; aside from the few scopes with deflection plates tied directly to the input transmission line, this is not representative of scopes, though), then gradually slows down at a rate determined by that time constant.

The risetime is therefore zero, because it can accelerate instantly from a stop, limited only by the rate of the impulse itself.  FWHA is proportional to one fall time.

Whereas a step applies variable acceleration, so as to achieve a certain steady-state value (velocity, in this case).  If we apply a constant acceleration, it will eventually balance against the drag force, so the total acceleration goes to zero, and the velocity stabilizes to a constant.  The 10-90% risetime is something like 2.2 time constants (assuming the usual exponential single pole response).

If it were a two pole filter of some type (like critical damping), the impulse response won't rise instantly, and the result will be a hump that's going up and down completely on its own, with no force from the impulse as it goes.  Whereas the step has to continue dragging through the whole range, like a tsunami coming in.

Oh, it may also help just to realize the relationship between ideal step and impulse responses: impulse is the derivative of step.  The entire rising edge of the step is the entire width of the impulse.  If the 'corners' are symmetrical (such as a Gaussian passband has), 10-90% points on the step correspond to 10-10% points on the impulse!  (Or something like that.)  The 10-90% points on the impulse are only the beginning of the toe of the entire step.

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 

Offline mtdoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3575
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #306 - Jim Williams Pulse Generator
« Reply #590 on: October 11, 2015, 12:28:27 am »
I'm still trying to figure out why the 2467B shows a rise time of 520-570 picoseconds and how it does that when it's own rise time specification is 875 picoseconds.

Why do you think the rise time of your scope is 875 psecs?  The Tek 2400 series scopes routinely have much higher bandwidth than their nominal specification.

My 2467 has a measured -3dB bandwidth of almost 450 Mhz  - far above it's nominal 350MHz and in line with the rise times seen in the pics below.  First pic is my JW pulser, second is waveform without coax attached. Last is with 18 inch length of coax to give a flat top.

 

Online Electro Fan

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3197
Re: EEVblog #306 - Jim Williams Pulse Generator
« Reply #591 on: October 11, 2015, 02:27:02 am »
I'm still trying to figure out why the 2467B shows a rise time of 520-570 picoseconds and how it does that when it's own rise time specification is 875 picoseconds.

Why do you think the rise time of your scope is 875 psecs?  The Tek 2400 series scopes routinely have much higher bandwidth than their nominal specification.

My 2467 has a measured -3dB bandwidth of almost 450 Mhz  - far above it's nominal 350MHz and in line with the rise times seen in the pics below.  First pic is my JW pulser, second is waveform without coax attached. Last is with 18 inch length of coax to give a flat top.

Thanks for sharing your test results.

It's not that I "think" the rise time specification for the Tektronix 2467B is 875ps, it's that 875ps is the published specification for the Tektronix 2467B - as shown in the image below.

To be clear, I hypothesized more than once earlier in this thread that the actual performance of the 2467B exceeds it's specification, maybe by 50%, or more.  Your measurement with the 350MHz version of the scope indicates that the scope does in fact exceed it's specification.  This is a plausible reason for the test results.  Thanks again for sharing your test results.

« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 02:42:07 am by Electro Fan »
 

Online Electro Fan

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3197
Re: EEVblog #306 - Jim Williams Pulse Generator
« Reply #592 on: October 11, 2015, 02:33:15 am »
The answer is simple: it has absolutely nothing to do with the instrument, but the signal.  Perform the measurement correctly (consistently -- measuring the step response with a step!) and you will observe the rated spec of the instrument.

Quite frankly, Dave is most likely following the same rules of thumb as anyone else.  I expect he hasn't, for example, worked out the impulse response and dispersion relations of typical filter types, and derived the rules independently and accurately -- he's much too lazy (= good) of an engineer to do that!  Moreover, given his lack of enthusiasm for higher math(s), he probably doesn't know how to work that out (or very quickly), anyway.  (No offense, if you're reading, Dave -- I hope I'm not underestimating your knowledge level here.)

And to be fair, I don't know either, but, I'm not afraid of working a little calculus to figure things out, and if I were charged with finding it, I feel confident I could.

I guess if you don't have a solid footing in filter and signals theory, and Fourier analysis, there isn't much I can quickly tell you that will convey this, other than to continue to assert that I am right (that the signals are different, and incomparable by the same rule of thumb, which depends upon gross assumptions).  Are you incapable of taking that in confidence?  :-//

As for physical analogies, we can work with that.  Acceleration to velocity is a single pole filter (namely, an ideal integrator), and acceleration with drag is a single pole filter at some frequency (where the cutoff frequency is given by mass and drag coefficient).  Suppose we label acceleration as input, and velocity as output.

The pulse is not simply a "rocket going up", but a proper impulse, such as a rocket engine which burns out much faster than the drag time constant, or, say, the blast wave from an explosion.  The rocket instantaneously accelerates (it's able to, because this is a single pole system; aside from the few scopes with deflection plates tied directly to the input transmission line, this is not representative of scopes, though), then gradually slows down at a rate determined by that time constant.

The risetime is therefore zero, because it can accelerate instantly from a stop, limited only by the rate of the impulse itself.  FWHA is proportional to one fall time.

Whereas a step applies variable acceleration, so as to achieve a certain steady-state value (velocity, in this case).  If we apply a constant acceleration, it will eventually balance against the drag force, so the total acceleration goes to zero, and the velocity stabilizes to a constant.  The 10-90% risetime is something like 2.2 time constants (assuming the usual exponential single pole response).

If it were a two pole filter of some type (like critical damping), the impulse response won't rise instantly, and the result will be a hump that's going up and down completely on its own, with no force from the impulse as it goes.  Whereas the step has to continue dragging through the whole range, like a tsunami coming in.

Oh, it may also help just to realize the relationship between ideal step and impulse responses: impulse is the derivative of step.  The entire rising edge of the step is the entire width of the impulse.  If the 'corners' are symmetrical (such as a Gaussian passband has), 10-90% points on the step correspond to 10-10% points on the impulse!  (Or something like that.)  The 10-90% points on the impulse are only the beginning of the toe of the entire step.

Tim

So you are saying the scope measurements (shown with my generator and scope, and with mtdoc's generator and scope) are or are not accurate measurements?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 02:36:33 am by Electro Fan »
 

Offline mtdoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3575
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #306 - Jim Williams Pulse Generator
« Reply #593 on: October 11, 2015, 02:37:36 am »

It's not that I "think" the rise time specification for the Tektronix 2467B is 875ps, it's that 875ps is the published specification for the Tektronix 2467B - as shown in the image below.


Ok thanks for clarifying. I would look at the 875ps in the specs as just another way of them stating the nominal bandwidth - since 875 ps corresponds to a calculated bandwidth of 400 MHz.
 

Online Electro Fan

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3197
Re: EEVblog #306 - Jim Williams Pulse Generator
« Reply #594 on: October 11, 2015, 02:52:03 am »

It's not that I "think" the rise time specification for the Tektronix 2467B is 875ps, it's that 875ps is the published specification for the Tektronix 2467B - as shown in the image below.


Ok thanks for clarifying. I would look at the 875ps in the specs as just another way of them stating the nominal bandwidth - since 875 ps corresponds to a calculated bandwidth of 400 MHz.

Right - there is little to no doubt in my mind that a normally functioning Tek 246X scope will exceed it's published specs; I think these scopes might exceed their specs by a significant margin.  So, I think the rise time you saw on the 350 MHz version is reasonably consistent with the rise time on the 400 MHz version.  Of course we don't know is how similar our JW pulsers are - which might account for some of the difference in our test results.  Regardless, I am pretty sure that JW pulsers can produce a rise time that is faster than what the 246X can keep up with.  So I think what we are seeing is the mostly the rise time threshold of the 246X and to a lesser extent the rise time performance of the JW pulser.  It's interesting to see that the rise time measurements on your "peaky" version and your "flat top" version are not all that much different.  Which leads me to believe that if in fact the scope is capable of measuring the more conventional flat top version there is not much reason to doubt it's ability to measure the peaky version - but Tim might have some reason to think otherwise. :)
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 03:00:33 am by Electro Fan »
 

Offline mtdoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3575
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #306 - Jim Williams Pulse Generator
« Reply #595 on: October 11, 2015, 03:06:00 am »
Of course we don't know is how similar our JW pulsers are - which might account for some of the difference in our test results.  Regardless, I am pretty sure that JW pulsers can produce a rise time that is faster than what the 246X can keep up with.  So I think what we are seeing is the mostly the rise time threshold of the 246X and to a lesser extent the rise time performance of the JW pulser. 

Yes, exactly.  My 2467 is the fastest scope I have. (nominal bandwidth of 350MHz compared to your 400 MHz).  When I've tested my JWP on my other scopes (hacked Rigol DS2072, Teks 2236, 475, 465b and BK 60MHz scope) the measured rise time has been in each case very close to what I would expect based on the measured -3dB bandwidth of those scopes.  I just wish I had a super fast scope to see what the rise time of my JWP really is.
 

Offline Jay_Diddy_B

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2733
  • Country: ca
Re: EEVblog #306 - Jim Williams Pulse Generator
« Reply #596 on: October 11, 2015, 03:09:38 am »
Hi,

Here is a picture from my Tektronix 2467B.

I adjusted the variable gain and position to put the top and bottom of the waveform on the 0% and 100% lines respectively. I then adjusted the cursors to intersect the 10% and 90% lines.



Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B
 

Offline mtdoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3575
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #306 - Jim Williams Pulse Generator
« Reply #597 on: October 11, 2015, 03:37:58 am »
Hi,

Here is a picture from my Tektronix 2467B.

I adjusted the variable gain and position to put the top and bottom of the waveform on the 0% and 100% lines respectively. I then adjusted the cursors to intersect the 10% and 90% lines.


Thanks for posting the pic and exposing the Faux Pas in my measurement technique!  I need to pay closer attention next time  :o . I just checked mine again with the waveform properly aligned and the measurement doesn't change much :  0.75--->0.72 ns (or so ..probably +/- 0.01 ns error by eyeball).   

Nice wave form!  Not sure why your 2467b should have a slower rise time than my 2467....
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 03:40:41 am by mtdoc »
 

Online Electro Fan

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3197
Re: EEVblog #306 - Jim Williams Pulse Generator
« Reply #598 on: October 11, 2015, 03:42:03 am »
Hi,

Here is a picture from my Tektronix 2467B.

I adjusted the variable gain and position to put the top and bottom of the waveform on the 0% and 100% lines respectively. I then adjusted the cursors to intersect the 10% and 90% lines.



Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Thanks

So, given that your pulse generator operates at (an incredibly fast!) 89ps, what you are largely showing is largely the rise time of the 2467B - yes?

All good - I'm just down to trying to figure out how I got 0.57 to 0.52ns....?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 06:59:09 am by Electro Fan »
 

Offline Howardlong

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5317
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #306 - Jim Williams Pulse Generator
« Reply #599 on: October 11, 2015, 07:28:06 am »
EF:

Simply that because the pulse width is so short, well before your scope's vertical could even reach the real voltage peak, the pulse generator was already heading south. By extending the pulse width, it gives time for the scope to reach the actual voltage peak.

Therefore, I'd say you weren't measuring 90% of the peak voltage, just 90% of how far the vertical made it before the input had dropped back.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf