Year 2013 Oscilloscope Choices...

[hgg]

Hello to everyone,

I am new to the forum.  My knowledge in electronics is limited and I would like to expand
by buying a valuable diagnostic too. An oscilloscope.

I know that this question has being asked many times, but I have been watching the forum
some time now and its not yet clear which oscilloscope is a safe buy.  Actually I know, but
I don't have the money to buy the Rigol DS2072...   I can only spend around 360 euros.

The candidates are the following:

1) Rigol DS1052E
    A proven design (I assume) with stable firmware, support, but small screen and terrible fan noise,
    although there are reports that the noise problem was fixed...  Just the fact that so many years
    and they did not replaced that fan, worries me a little...  How difficult is to use a low noise fan??
    They could have used two slow speed and quiet fans placed opposite one another and would
    have achieved much better airflow without the need of a single fast & noisy fan.

2) Hantek DSO5202B
    Fast oscilloscope with many features, nice functional menu plus easily hackable.
    Looks cheap on the outside and has bad viewing angle but only from above.
    Some report slow speed when using all available memory.

3) Owon SDS7102V
    Large crisp display, huge memory, single fast ADC, optional battery, quiet.  Not a very functional
    menu system, questionable firmware.  Unknown internals...  Has anybody read the following though?
    http://owon.freeforums.org/rigol-owon-hantek-and-siglent-samplerate-tables-t9.html

4) Siglent SDS1072CML
    Not a lot is known about this line of oscilloscopes.  The display looks promising, the firmware looks
    extremely similar with the Rigol's (if not exactly the same...)  The quality in general looks good.
    Decent memory.   Difficult to get one and at the right price.   Non existent support?
    http://www.siglent.com/UploadFiles/en/Files/DataSheet/SDS1000CML_datasheet_en.pdf

5) UNI-T UTD2102CM
    Excellent specs but some say its all lies..., Amazing price!
    Many negative comments about the UNI-T oscilloscope series.
    Any proof/numbers for this one?  (or just rumors)

So:   
I am not buying the Rigol because it has a small screen.
I am not buying the Hantek because it looks cheaply made.
I am not buying the Owon because the firmware lacks in many aspects.
I am not buying the Siglent because nobody knows how it actually performs.
I am not buying the UNI-T because rumor has it that its a bad scope.   

...but these are my options and from what I see, in order to make a decision
I would have to sacrifice something. That is why I am asking for some help.

The things that are more important to me are the following:  (with that order)
Price Range around 360 euros / $470.   Maximum 400 euros if its a must.

  1) Accurate measurements & signal quality.  (for the price range)
  2) Stable firmware.
  3) High quality internal power supply.  (very important for any device)
  4) Crisp display with decent viewing angles.
  5) Bandwidth >= 50Mhz.
  6) Usable probes for the given bandwidth.

I would appreciate it if anyone can suggest to me which one to buy based on the above
requirements.  If there is an oscilloscope not included in the above list that meets the criteria,
please feel free to tell me.

Thank you in advance !
George.

[mikeselectricstuff]

 

1) Accurate measurements & signal quality.

You get what you pay for - doubt there will be much to choose between these

  2) Stable firmware.

We all know Chinese are bad at firmware - Rigol probably the best bet but issues on others are more likely to be annoyances than show-stoppers. Again, .you get what you pay for

 3) High quality internal power supply.

PSUs are usually easily repairable
 

4) Crisp display with nice viewing angles.

Why do you need wide view angle? - you will usually want the scope facing you for access to controls
 

5) Bandwidth >= 50Mhz.

50-100M is a reasonable starting point these days - nmot worth looking at anything less as it will probably be cheapo garbage

6) Usable probes for the given bandwidth.

You can always buy different probes, but at this bandwidth it's not too critical and chances are they will all come with the same ones.

Small screen is not often a big deal unless you have vision problems.
AT the low=cost end you're probably not going to get much better resolution even on a bigger screen.

[EEVblog]

Welcome to the world of cut price scopes.
Pick whichever one annoys you the least 

[hgg]

Hello Dave,
Thanks for the welcome!   
I am trying hard to pick one... 
Maybe I will buy the Rigol 2000 series and calm down.... 

Hello Mike,
For me its frustrating not having a decent clear display. 

AT the low=cost end you're probably not going to get much better resolution even on a bigger screen.

This is actually a very good point.

I also forgot to add to the list of choices the UNI-T UTD2102CM oscilloscope.
Excellent features and great price as well.

I've seen a lot of people saying bad things about the Uni-T oscilloscope range but with no actual
proof.   If I take for example the UT61E multimeter its actually a very good quality & accurate
multimeter for an unbeatable price.

So I am updating the above list with the UNI-T UTD2102CM scope as well.

[marmad]

Welcome to the world of cut price scopes.
Pick whichever one annoys you the least 

Ha! Succinct and exactly correct 

[marmad]

I am not buying the Rigol because it has a small screen.

As Mike said, only an issue if your eyesight isn't so good. On the upside, it's a stable product with a huge user base - and you get SCPI control of the DSO.

I am not buying the Hantek because it looks cheaply made.

Not a big deal - FW crashes are more of an issue; I don't know where that stands currently - check the Hantek thread here for latest info.

I am not buying the Owon because the firmware lacks in many aspects.

Again, not really a big issue. If you can make do with the slow update rates, it's the best hardware value/per dollar (big screen, 10M per channel, battery-powered, etc).

I am not buying the Siglent because nobody knows how it actually performs.

Member Rf-loop sells Siglent here in the EU - and has done many tests on them. Contact him for more info. He also sells Owons - and could tell you pros and cons vs. Siglent.

I am not buying the UNI-T because rumor has it that its a bad scope.   

I don't know anything about Uni-T, other than I've read they've appeared to 'fudge' some of their specs in the past.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Welcome to the world of cut price scopes.
Pick whichever one annoys you the least 

This is by far the best advice you'll ever receive. Having lived with my fair share of some shitty crap...

[Ed.Kloonk]

Having said that. Having watched Dave's videos, the expensive scopes are not exactly annoyance free.

[jebcom]

My 2 cents:

I just bought the Hantek. I got the MSO5202D (MSO because I do mixed signal stuff and analog and logic analyzer on common triggering and display have been very useful to me in the past. But this is not what you're asking about...)

First, at this price point, I don't expect the near-perfection that I would expect by spending much more on a Tek or Agilent product.

I absorbed all the reviews I could find, and Marmad's helped to inform my decision. I also know a guy who bought the DSO5202B. To address your points:

Looks Cheap:
I don't see this as an issue. When Agilent first came out with pastel color coding on the front panels, I thought "Fisher Price! What engineer will want to buy this?" But I've gotten used to it, and the Hantek doesn't bother me at all. It's quite functional, and I don't see any of the hand-cut issues that Marmad mentioned.

Bad Viewing Angle:
This is noticeable but for me not an issue at all. I have it sitting on my desk now, and I did turn up the grid intensity a bit so I can see that part better. If I move my head down low I can notice the difference, but it is not any kind of a problem for me.

Slow Speed with all of memory:
Can't comment as I haven't tried this yet. But I believe that for the vast majority of my scope uses, this will not be an issue.

Right now I don't have the time for hacking or for depending on hacks, so that was not a consideration for me; I need it as a tool. 90% - 95% of the time this just needs to be a basic scope and this was my main consideration, so at my price point I think I got the most bang for the buck.

[hgg]

Marmad Hi,

Some ebay seller is selling right now the Owon at a very nice discount price:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Thin-OWON-100Mhz-Oscilloscope-SDS7102V-1G-s-8-FFT-LAN-VGA-free-FW-upgr-UK-ship-/380611078970?pt=Mess_Pr%C3%BCftechnik&hash=item589e302b3a
So, I have to decide fast...

From your reply it looks like that from all the scopes listed you are between the Owon and the Rigol,
taking into account my requirements.  So +1 for Rigol & Owon.

Hello jebcom,
Thanks for your feedback.  When I say it looks cheap what I mean is that looking at the outside
it looks cheap and from that I assume that the inside is cheap as well.  That of course might not
be true and that Hantek used quality parts.  Nice to know from an actual user that the Hantek
performs well with no major problems.  I assume that it has the same display as the DSO5202B.
So, +1 for the Hantek as well.

Will it be a lot to ask for a video of the Hantek screen while moving the camera slowly around to
check the viewing angles?

Thanks!

[hgg]

I encourage anyone that does not like to talk a lot  but has an opinion, to vote for the best
oscilloscope from those listed.  Thanks!  It will be interesting to see the results.

[xrunner]

Pick whichever one annoys you the least 

That's how I choose girlfriends. 

[Ed.Kloonk]

I encourage anyone that does not like to talk a lot  but has an opinion, to vote for the best
oscilloscope from those listed.  Thanks!  It will be interesting to see the results.

Sorry. I have none of these listed. The scope I have was made probably before you were born, sonny.

 O0

If only you had the option of second hand CRO or something...

[nctnico]

I'd choose the one with the highest display resolution. The amount of pixels in height is most important. It allows you to put several traces on screen with some amount of resolution.

[Wytnucls]

I would still buy the Rigol DS1052E.
Proven design and updated firmware. It just works.
At your level, 50MHz is more than enough and the screen resolution is adequate.
3 year warranty and good resale value.

[tinhead]

I am not buying the Hantek because it looks cheaply made.

Not a big deal - FW crashes are more of an issue; I don't know where that stands currently - check the Hantek thread here for latest info.

short said -> much better. There is however one thing, Hantek is changing right now the hardware, there are already "P" models available,
they already using new SoC. I have no idea yet what else will get changed in "B/BM/BMV" models (note: P models having only 24k memory).

It might be good idea to buy the "old" hardware as we know it can be hacked, it might be better idea to wait a bit (new models still no Linux, this time 3.x)
and buy one of the updated B/BM/BMV models. When MSO will be updated, no idea as well.

I am not buying the UNI-T because rumor has it that its a bad scope.   

I don't know anything about Uni-T, other than I've read they've appeared to 'fudge' some of their specs in the past.

on the paper UNI-T is having 150k wfms/s and 16M memory. I've asked 2 persons having such DSOs to run tests but never
got an answer (haha), so i assume :
- there is no trigger out, so no measurment possible
- there is trigger-out only as pass/fail, but the trigger rate is slower than announces by UNI-T (which make sense, pass/fail can be slower than normal operation)
- these ppl whom i asked ar simply too stupid ? no, i don't think so, but both are shop owners, so mixed feelings about this.

I am not buying the Siglent because nobody knows how it actually performs.

Member Rf-loop sells Siglent here in the EU

right, he have (or will get for sure) the latest Siglent hw, he knows what inside and what new/updated.


hgg, if i would have to buy one, then:

Rigol E is too old platform, from 2004, improved 2006 and again 2008 (and released as E models) as Rigol recognized that CA models are too expensive.
DSO is not wine nor car, especially in low/mid range models features changing every few weeks.

Hantek is changing their old hardware (which is newer than Rigol E but older than Owon SDS or Siglent SML and UNI-T CM)
to new one - i would not buy the old anymore (again, this is not wine nor car). I don't know if there will be performance change at all
(it could be because the new SoC is faster, but then there is Linux 3.x eating all the resources ...)

Owon is useless slow for the given hardware ... it is a shame in my opinion to sell such nice hardware with such slow firmware.
But remember one thing, is is exact taht fast as e.g. Tektronix TDS1xxx/2xxx, but it does have much bigger display and 10Mpoints instead of 2.5kpoints,
so slow didn't means not usable - but you can get for sam money faster DSOs.

UNI-T as said above, on paper the best EVER value for money, better than Agilent DSOX2xxx, as Rigol DS2000 ^^
- but nobody ever tested it. As you located in EU i would say buy it - test it - and send it back if not what you wish to get.
I'm not a friend on UNI-T, but who knows, maybe they really designed properly a good piece of hardware.

Siglent CML is the newest model from of all these (yet available) chinese DSOs, from the published specs they like improved Rigol E,
with mix of features found on competitor models. I would say ask rf-loop for more informations/performance comparision or information
about the hardware changes.

[tinhead]

Bad Viewing Angle:
This is noticeable but for me not an issue at all. I have it sitting on my desk now, and I did turn up the grid intensity a bit so I can see that part better. If I move my head down low I can notice the difference, but it is not any kind of a problem for me.

Hantek/Tekway is the only chinese DSO which can be placed at and above eye level! When you do this, the viewing angle is perfect.
It was designed by Tekway like that for reason and i'm glad they did it. All others are designed to be placed on desk, for me not this was never
an option as i don't have there space.

[marmad]

Hantek/Tekway is the only chinese DSO which can be placed at and above eye level! When you do this, the viewing angle is perfect.
It was designed by Tekway like that for reason and i'm glad they did it. All others are designed to be placed on desk, for me not this was never
an option as i don't have there space.

Exactly. It's not about bad viewing angle - it's about what viewing angle suits your use. The Hantek/Tekway is perfect for shelf placement (Rigol is terrible from below).

[Hydrawerk]

I'd choose the one with the highest display resolution. The amount of pixels in height is most important. It allows you to put several traces on screen with some amount of resolution.

Well, all those scopes use a 8-bit DAC so the verticl resolution is in fact 256 points.
I wanted to buy the 200MHz Owon SDS8202 but then I bought the Agilent DSOX2002A. It's a lovely machine with a handy function generator. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/my-new-toy-%29-agilent-dsox2002a-sex-on-a-stick!/30/

[hgg]

Ed.Kloonk I am looking for a digital scope and for a particular price range.
I have the feeling that more people like me are having the same problem choosing a digital oscilloscope.

nctnico, a nice point if you are using a lot both inputs.
Owon and Hantek and UNI-T, have the highest vertical resolution.

Wytnucls I agree with you and in my list I have the Rigol as the safest bet.  The thing is that
maybe for the same amount of money you can buy now a substantially better scope and people
just don't know it because to my knowledge there are not any proper comparisons of digital
oscilloscopes for a price range.  So if the not so popular scopes are taken into account as well,
we might be able to reach a correct conclusion.

tinhead thank you for your reply,
Concerning the UNI-T you did not get an answer so we still don't know how they perform.
It does not mean that they perform badly.
It is very difficult to try to make a decision by asking a seller.  They are almost all the time biased,
(forward or reversed  ) about the products they are selling.  In my opinion only an independent
user can give you reliable information.  Or a very honest seller that will accept the superiority of
a different brand and will not sell his own.  Know someone?   
Anyway, from the info you gave me I don't see that you have reached any conclusion as well.

You are correct about the Hantek viewing angle.  If this was a designed feature though, they
should at least advertise it.  It will indeed be perfect fro some people that place their instruments
on shelves.

marmad, its nice to know that info about the Rigol as well !

Hydrawerk you are correct...  I missed that.
Regarding the Agilent you have, its indeed a very nice machine but the price is three times higher!
The function generator comes handy though and in the future I intend to buy one as well.

[marmad]

So if the not so popular scopes are taken into account as well, we might be able to reach a correct conclusion.

But there is no 'correct' conclusion - there are simply reasonably good solutions based upon your most pressing needs.

Any of the mentioned DSOs will likely provide you adequately with these things:
1) Accurate measurements & signal quality.  (for the price range)
2) Stable firmware.
3) High quality internal power supply.  (very important for any device)
4) Crisp display with decent viewing angles.
5) Bandwidth >= 50Mhz.
6) Usable probes for the given bandwidth.

So then you need to determine what else, if anything, is important for you. For example:

Rigol: If you want the biggest support network of other users and/or easiest interfacing to external computer software.

Hantek: If you want the fastest waveform update rates in a low-cost unit and/or hackability.

Owon: If you want deep memory and/or VGA output and/or battery portability.

[Hydrawerk]

Any of Rigol DS1052E, Hantek DSO5202B, Owon SDS7102V, Siglent SDS1072CML or UNI-T UTD2102CM might be OK. Choose according to the reseller that is near to you! I wanted to buy the Owon, because there is a shop in my city. They even showed me the scope in action. It froze once, LOL. But the screen was nice. At these cheap scopes you may need the shop near to you because of the 2-year warranty. Ask well for the noise issue of Owon. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-of-owon-sds7102/990/
And I have read that the Hantek is overheating due to no fan. Really bad. But maybe some Hantek has the fan, who knows.

[hgg]

Having a fast waveform update would be nice I suppose.

Hydrawerk I am afraid that I cannot buy any oscilloscope here in Greece because they are much more
expensive than buying it from the internet.

About the Hantek heating problem!  This is not a minor problem but a major one    Are you sure that
is has overheating problems???  It will catch fire... here in Greece and the measurements of course will be
way off !   Glad you mentioned that.   

You see?  'Small' things like these will definitely erase some scopes from the list.
I will try to find out if its true.

[tinhead]

And I have read that the Hantek is overheating due to no fan. Really bad. But maybe some Hantek has the fan, who knows.

nahhh, Tekway designed these DSOs to work without fan as well, however fan was an option for middle east/india, etc.
Hantek is however producing them all WITH fan, as well for/as Voltcraft with fan. Tekway is producing both, with and without
(however due only small series they producing you might get one with fan even if you don't asked for such).

If you have 35° in your room, i would not use Tekway/Hantek without fan, but when you have 22° i don't see here any reason to have fan installed.

[hgg]

   I've just received a reply from a Hantek seller and he confirms that the 200Mhz Hantek has an
internal fan indeed!  Nice.