Author Topic: Siglent - 11/20 - New SDS1104X-U, 4 channel 100MHz, 1Gsa/s economy oscilloscope  (Read 38737 times)

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Online Fungus

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Rigol also has some features that the Siglent doesn't, eg, plot a rolling graph of measurements over time.

What?  There's no "roll mode" or whatever they call it? 

There's a standard "roll mode" for the channel waveforms but the Rigol can overlay a rolling graph of the measurements (eg. RMS, VPP, etc). I believe Siglents can't do that.

(and I'm sure I'll be quickly slapped down by the Siglent police if I'm wrong).
« Last Edit: January 26, 2021, 06:53:19 pm by Fungus »
 

Online Fungus

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I would rather get the ubiquitous Rigol if all other things are equal, even simply due to track record and number sold alone, so any contender needs to be way better bang for the buck by somehow either being far less expensive or way more capable in some ways that would make it more useful to me, hence my interest in the SDS1104X-U vs DS1054Z specifically, as I think I already basically understand where the SDS1104X-E  vs DS1054Z divide ends up.

Yep. There's nothing wrong with the Rigol. It works, it shows wiggly lines on screen, it's very reliable and solidly built.
 

Offline tautech

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Rigol also has some features that the Siglent doesn't, eg, plot a rolling graph of measurements over time.

What?  There's no "roll mode" or whatever they call it? 
SDS****X-* models all have 2 roll modes, an automatic one when the timebase is slowed beyond 50ms/div and a dedicated roll mode.
Auto waits for the memory buffer to be completely filled before displaying anything while the dedicated roll mode displays the waveform in RT.
The Roll button lets you enter and exit the dedicated roll mode.

Saelig has the SDS1104X-U as do I in NZ and as an EEVblog member you can ask for their EEVblog discount in their discount thread:
http://www.saelig.com/sds1000x-u-series/sds1104x-u.htm
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Offline drussell

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SDS****X-* models all have 2 roll modes, an automatic one when the timebase is slowed beyond 50ms/div and a dedicated roll mode.
Auto waits for the memory buffer to be completely filled before displaying anything while the dedicated roll mode displays the waveform in RT.
The Roll button lets you enter and exit the dedicated roll mode

What is the maximum time limit on the rolling mode, how does it handle that or how slow of a timebase can you set?  Do you happen know if it is internally running all the time in roll mode or does it always try to sample after a trigger threshold is crossed.  I suppose I really need to read up on how the various trigger options even normally works on these modern DSOs...   :-\

I haven't downloaded any of the Siglent manuals yet, still working my way through the DS1054Z book.  I wish there were online emulators for the UI on these things, it is rather tricky to understand the various nuances without having the actual instrument in front of you, but especially in these days of extra virus annoyance doing any of the usually easy, proper in-person evaluations is likely to be a particularly arduous to downright impossible task.
 

Offline tautech

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SDS****X-* models all have 2 roll modes, an automatic one when the timebase is slowed beyond 50ms/div and a dedicated roll mode.
Auto waits for the memory buffer to be completely filled before displaying anything while the dedicated roll mode displays the waveform in RT.
The Roll button lets you enter and exit the dedicated roll mode

What is the maximum time limit on the rolling mode, how does it handle that or how slow of a timebase can you set?  Do you happen know if it is internally running all the time in roll mode or does it always try to sample after a trigger threshold is crossed.
Timebase range is listed in datasheets. X-U = 2 ns/div-100 s/div
Sort of running continually and it's called History mode.
Everything about the modern DSO is trigger related.  ;)

https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/11/SDS1000X-U_DataSheet_DS010AH-E01A.pdf
« Last Edit: January 26, 2021, 08:47:25 pm by tautech »
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Offline LiftedTrace

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Saelig has the SDS1104X-U as do I in NZ and as an EEVblog member you can ask for their EEVblog discount in their discount thread:
Where is this thread located?
 

Offline drussell

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Saelig has the SDS1104X-U as do I in NZ and as an EEVblog member you can ask for their EEVblog discount in their discount thread:
Where is this thread located?

Just ask in the thread below and they will send you a PM:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/equipment-discounts-from-saelig/msg3434708/#new
 
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Online nctnico

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Rigol also has some features that the Siglent doesn't, eg, plot a rolling graph of measurements over time.

What?  There's no "roll mode" or whatever they call it? 

Hmm, that's important if it doesn't exist on some of these potential choices.  I use the "transient recorder" feature on the K7103 all the time!  I guess I need to read through the manuals of a couple of these possible models to try to spot things like that.   :-\

Quote
If you can buy from Tequipment then the GW-Instek GDS1054B is under $300 with the EEVBLOG discount:

I haven't really eliminated any possible brands at this point, I'm open to all suggestions but I don't want to totally hijack this thread either, perhaps I should start another comparison thread?  It just always seems like "what is the best scope" is a done to death thread topic. 

That being said, the little bits and pieces I have heard about general quality on GW-Instek gear did not exactly inspire confidence and give me that warm fuzzy feeling and the price in CAD would only be $20 less than than the Rigol since there is no "pay your sales tax" promo on them like on the DS1054Z.  I would rather get the ubiquitous Rigol if all other things are equal, even simply due to track record and number sold alone, so any contender needs to be way better bang for the buck by somehow either being far less expensive or way more capable in some ways that would make it more useful to me, hence my interest in the SDS1104X-U vs DS1054Z specifically, as I think I already basically understand where the SDS1104X-E  vs DS1054Z divide ends up.
It is not like GW Instek is making scopes to not sell them and they have been in the test equipment business for a long time (probably longer than Rigol and Siglent).  Also keep in mind that the GDS1054B is the only one in this price bracket with individual channel controls. Discarding it based on 'a feeling' is a mistake. In my experience the service department from GW Instek is responsive and their quality is just fine (lots of GW Instek gear is sold as rebadges by several A brands).

The best thing for you to do is make a list with pros/cons for each model where it comes to functionality and decide on what is important to you. Quality wise they are all the same.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 06:05:21 pm by nctnico »
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Online Fungus

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It is not like GW Instek is making scopes to not sell them and they have been in the test equipment business for a long time (probably longer than Rigol and Siglent).  Also keep in mind that the GDS1054B is the only one in this price bracket with individual channel controls. Discarding it based on 'a feeling' is a mistake.

The reason they weren't historically very popular is in part because they lacked things like serial decoders, but these have been added as standard now. They also cost a lot more than the Rigol.

(Serial decoders could be added by hacking in the serial decoder plugin from a higher-up model but there was no official option)

I haven't owned one myself but I've seen a lot of people say good things about them. For under $300 they seem like a total bargain.
 

Offline tautech

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Defpom has a look at the new SDS1104X-U

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Offline rf-loop

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Defpom has a look at the new SDS1104X-U

[Youtube]

Thank you. Nice video.

One small marginal note.

Is it finally time to forget this old Trigger Holdoff time method for trig AM modulation.  It was important in history with analog scopes and older digital scopes with very limited trigger functions. Today we have lot of better things in modern oscilloscope trigger engine.
Today modern digital oscilloscopes have lot of more powerful trigger functions.  Even the old brown fox can learn new jumps over the lazy dog...

Problem with trigger holdoff time using is: when modulating frequency change lot as it many times do in real life it loose trig easy and  if it change lot and fast never can not follow it with adjusting HoldOff time.
Here is (imho) better method.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-1120-new-sds1104x-u-4-channel-100mhz-1gsas-economy-oscilloscope/msg3381016/#msg3381016

« Last Edit: February 03, 2021, 12:25:28 pm by rf-loop »
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Offline tautech

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Defpom has a look at the new SDS1104X-U

[Youtube]

Thank you. Nice video.

One small marginal note.

Is it finally time to forget this old Trigger Holdoff time method for trig AM modulation.  It was important in history with analog scopes and older digital scopes with very limited trigger functions. Today we have lot of better things in modern oscilloscope trigger engine.
Today modern digital oscilloscopes have lot of more powerful trigger functions. ..........
Yes I thought of you when I watched Defpom attempting to get solid triggering on AM modulation.  ;)

He certainly shows some better familiarity now he has an X-E of his own but he still has a few more tricks to learn about its standard features and I made comments on the YouTube page that he has pinned at the top so to help others.
Quite pleased he covered all he did in just 30 mins.  :)
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Offline kcbrown

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It is not like GW Instek is making scopes to not sell them and they have been in the test equipment business for a long time (probably longer than Rigol and Siglent).  Also keep in mind that the GDS1054B is the only one in this price bracket with individual channel controls. Discarding it based on 'a feeling' is a mistake. In my experience the service department from GW Instek is responsive and their quality is just fine (lots of GW Instek gear is sold as rebadges by several A brands).

The best thing for you to do is make a list with pros/cons for each model where it comes to functionality and decide on what is important to you. Quality wise they are all the same.

If you're in the U.S., the GDS1054B comes in under $300 with the EEVblog discount.  The SDS1000X-U is $100 more than that.  Unless one of the limitations of the 1054B mentioned below is a showstopper, the Instek is the clear winner due to price alone.

The Instek has per-channel controls, while the Siglent does not.  But this comes at a cost: the Instek is substantially larger in its width.  If space is at a premium for you, the Siglent is a better choice, all other things being equal (which, of course, they're not).

The UI on the SDS1000X-U, if it's anything like the 1204X-E that I have, is good, and reasonably responsive.  But the UI on the GDS1054B is blazing fast, smooth as butter.  Save for a couple of times when I managed to make the UI crawl (I haven't been able to figure out how to reliably repeat it), it's been stable in that respect.  The Instek shows exactly what a UI implemented on top of the Zynq architecture is capable of when done properly.  The Instek also separates out the select button from the multifunction knob, while the Siglent uses a press of the multifunction knob for selection.  The latter results in errors while selecting items.  It would have been better for Siglent to use a detented knob for the multifunction knob, as that would eliminate the problem.  Instek's solution is superior even to a detented knob, since it allows for fast scrolling through values while also eliminating the problem of the knob moving on you when you select something.

Both units give you excellent serial decoding capability.  The 1054B gives you i2c, SPI, CAN, LIN, UART, and parallel bus decoding (tough to see how useful parallel would be with only 4 channels, though).

The 1054B has a frontend that limits the bandwidth to below 100 MHz, so even though it can be hacked to claim that it's a 100 MHz scope, it isn't really.  See https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/possible-gw-instek-gds-1000b-hack/msg3306636/#msg3306636.  The -3 dB point seems to be at around 80 MHz.  What I don't know is whether or not the hack results in any changes to the bandwidth characteristics of the scope.  I suspect not, but I don't have a proper signal source that I can use to test that.

When hacked, the 1054B has segment capability.  It also has event search capability that ties into the FFT and makes it possible to display a table of peaks.   But Instek seems to have implemented segmented memory as an afterthought.  With the Siglent, it is a first-class property, baked into the design, and is always active.   Why do I say that Instek has implemented it as an afterthought?  Simple: because you can't have it active while search is active at the same time.  Similarly, you can't enable search (and thus see FFT peaks) if segmented memory is active.   This means you can't see the frame-by-frame peaks in the FFT.  This is a limitation that has no rational justification that I can think of.

Worse, if you are using segments on the Instek, the FFT mechanism will not show the FFT as it varies by segment.  This means that you cannot examine how the spectral content of the waveform changes over time.  The Siglent does this correctly, precisely because it implements segments as a first-class always-on mechanism.

Additionally, while the Instek will allow you to see the FFT peaks in a table, the Siglent implements this better: it allows you to see the table overlaid on the waveform and/or the FFT.  The Instek's table covers up the entire screen and thus makes it impossible to see the peaks in the FFT graph as you move through the table.

The Siglent implements a "what you see is all you get" approach to acquisition.  In particular, the unzoomed screen boundaries define the limits of the capture.  This has advantages and disadvantages.  It has the advantage of clarity, in that it makes it clear exactly what you're getting for any given capture, and it then is on you to set your timebase appropriately to capture what you need.  It has the disadvantage that if your screen size (in terms of time) isn't big enough to show the data you want, you can't just zoom out in order to see the data that you missed.   The Instek implements a more traditional capture mechanism whereby the amount that is captured is defined by the memory size relative to the sample rate, and the scope will wait until it fills the buffer before enabling another trigger event.  If you want a fast trigger rate, you have to manually downsize the capture buffer to accomplish that.  There's an indicator at the top of the display that shows the size of the waveform on the screen relative to the size of the capture, so you can always tell whether you're viewing a subset of an entire capture or the whole thing.   Perhaps the easiest way to illustrate the difference is to perform a digital protocol capture where you're decoding the results.  With the Siglent, you have to set up your timebase so that the entire capture is on the screen.  If the amount of necessary data per capture event is high enough, you won't be able to examine relevant subsets of the decoded data without using zoom mode (which works well enough).  With the Instek, you can just set your timebase to directly see what you're interested in and the scope will still capture everything that will fit into memory.  But the downside of the latter is that you would have to Just Know that the part of the waveform that represents the start of the digital message is within the buffer range, which may or may not be the case.  But: nothing prevents you from setting your timebase in exactly the same way you would the Siglent and using zoom mode on the Instek, either, at least when the amount of data you need to capture is much larger than what you need to display.  Finally, the pass/fail mask mechanism works only on the screen, and this gives the Instek's approach a massive advantage, because it means you can define a specific portion of the full capture as what should be tested, while the Siglent utterly lacks that capability (the 2000X+ fixes this by making mask testing in zoom mode possible, but that capability is not present in the 1000X-E and, I presume, the 1000X-U).

Now, the Siglent's approach here does have an advantage in theory.  Suppose that you're capturing a large series of bursts of communications traffic, such that the amount of time per burst is, say, 40 microseconds of time.  At 1GS/s, that's 40000 sample points.  The Instek will force you to acquire 100000 points in order to capture this at the full sample rate.  If the amount of time between bursts is more than 20 microseconds and less than 60 microseconds plus the Instek's trigger re-arm time, the Instek will miss the subsequent event.  But with the Siglent, you can just set your timebase to 5 us/div, so that the screen covers 70 microseconds (the Siglent has 14 horizontal divisions), and as long as the delay between bursts is longer than 30 microseconds plus whatever the Siglent's re-arm time is, it'll capture the entirety of all the bursts.  And because segmented memory is always on, it will always store the captures for later review.  The Instek has segments, but you'd be limited to segments of 100000 points in this case, and that may cause you to miss the trailing portion of some 50% of the bursts.  If you intentionally drop the capture size to 10000 points, the sample rate drops to 200MS/s, and that does take care of this hypothetical problem, but you take a sample rate hit in order to achieve that.  Both scopes have some limitations here.  They're just different limitations.


All in all, I'd say the Instek gets the win.  But not by as much as you might think.  Its main advantage is price and that fast UI.  At the current price, the value of the Instek is off the charts.

« Last Edit: February 04, 2021, 03:46:18 am by kcbrown »
 

Online 2N3055

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The Siglent implements a "what you see is all you get" approach to acquisition.  In particular, the unzoomed screen boundaries define the limits of the capture.  This has advantages and disadvantages.  It has the advantage of clarity, in that it makes it clear exactly what you're getting for any given capture, and it then is on you to set your timebase appropriately to capture what you need.  But it has the disadvantage that it directly couples the trigger event rate to the capture itself.  The after-the-fact trigger search mechanism is no substitute for this because that search mechanism implements only a small subset of the available triggers.  The Instek implements a more traditional capture mechanism whereby the amount that is captured is defined by the memory size relative to the sample rate, while the trigger update mechanism is defined by the timebase relative to the rate of trigger events. This makes it possible for fast trigger updates while still managing to capture much more than just what is seen on the screen.

I'm afraid I don't really understand the reasoning  here, especially bold parts.

Every scope will directly couple trigger event rate to trigger events. And if scope has to capture 100 ms of data per trigger, it will have max 10 triggers per second. It's no matter if that time length was defined by sample memory size settings & sample rate settings or by time/div & sample rate settings. Two scopes capturing same sample size at same sample rate will take same time to do it. If there is difference in trigger rate between them, it will be in rettriger (rearm) time, that has to be added to sample time to define trigger rate.....

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Offline kcbrown

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The Siglent implements a "what you see is all you get" approach to acquisition.  In particular, the unzoomed screen boundaries define the limits of the capture.  This has advantages and disadvantages.  It has the advantage of clarity, in that it makes it clear exactly what you're getting for any given capture, and it then is on you to set your timebase appropriately to capture what you need.  But it has the disadvantage that it directly couples the trigger event rate to the capture itself.  The after-the-fact trigger search mechanism is no substitute for this because that search mechanism implements only a small subset of the available triggers.  The Instek implements a more traditional capture mechanism whereby the amount that is captured is defined by the memory size relative to the sample rate, while the trigger update mechanism is defined by the timebase relative to the rate of trigger events. This makes it possible for fast trigger updates while still managing to capture much more than just what is seen on the screen.

I'm afraid I don't really understand the reasoning  here, especially bold parts.

Every scope will directly couple trigger event rate to trigger events. And if scope has to capture 100 ms of data per trigger, it will have max 10 triggers per second. It's no matter if that time length was defined by sample memory size settings & sample rate settings or by time/div & sample rate settings. Two scopes capturing same sample size at same sample rate will take same time to do it. If there is difference in trigger rate between them, it will be in rettriger (rearm) time, that has to be added to sample time to define trigger rate.....

This might be a case of bad use of terminology on my part.  I've since corrected it.  Please review it again and let me know if I got other things wrong.

Your description is correct: the screen determines how much time after the trigger fires the scope will delay before re-arming the trigger.  This is true of both the Instek and the Siglent for their normal operating mode (see below for a caveat with respect to the Instek).

The point I was attempting to make is that because the Siglent always uses the amount of time represented by the screen to determine the amount of time to be represented by a capture, and the trigger re-arm time is the amount of time between the trigger indicator and the right edge of the screen, the end result is that the Siglent forces you to trade trigger firing rate for capture length.   The Instek doesn't force that upon you.  The trigger firing rate is, as usual, limited by the time distance between the trigger indicator and the right edge of the screen, but the capture size is not limited to the time represented by the screen.  This means the trigger can fire often and the amount that is captured will be determined solely by the memory depth (the amount of time that represents depends on the sampling rate, and the sampling rate is adjusted so that it either is enough to always fill a screen's width worth of time or is at the sampling rate limit, whichever is lower).

This means you can use the Instek to see changes to the waveform in rapid succession while still capturing a much larger amount of time when you stop the scope.  Obviously, though, the large capture itself only happens when the scope is stopped.  When the Instek is in segmented memory mode, it sets the trigger rearm time to be long enough to ensure that the specified amount of memory is filled before the trigger re-arms.
 

Online nctnico

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This means you can use the Instek to see changes to the waveform in rapid succession while still capturing a much larger amount of time when you stop the scope.  Obviously, though, the large capture itself only happens when the scope is stopped.
No. Try triggering in normal mode on a single event and you'll see there will be a full capture. AFAIK only the newer Keysight scopes have this weird behaviour where you have to stop first (much like pressing the 'single' button) before getting a full acquisition.
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Offline kcbrown

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This means you can use the Instek to see changes to the waveform in rapid succession while still capturing a much larger amount of time when you stop the scope.  Obviously, though, the large capture itself only happens when the scope is stopped.
No. Try triggering in normal mode on a single event and you'll see there will be a full capture. AFAIK only the newer Keysight scopes have this weird behaviour where you have to stop first (much like pressing the 'single' button) before getting a full acquisition.

I should have been more precise.  The large capture that contains multiple events that would fire the trigger, where the events are separated by more time than that represented by the distance between the trigger location and the edge of the screen only happens when the scope is stopped.  The trigger re-arm time is defined by the time distance between the trigger location on the screen and the edge of the screen, no?  If so, then that would mean the trigger can fire any time after the previous event fired plus (at most) the amount of time represented by the screen.

If the trigger re-arm time is defined by the amount of time represented by the capture buffer then that would make the trigger re-arm time independent of the timebase whenever the time represented by the screen is smaller than the time represented by the capture.  Is that actually how it works?  If so, then I stand corrected, and that would actually reduce the practical difference between the Siglent and the Instek in this regard.

I think I'm going to have to come up with an experiment that shows what the scope does here. 
« Last Edit: February 03, 2021, 11:58:32 pm by kcbrown »
 

Online nctnico

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This means you can use the Instek to see changes to the waveform in rapid succession while still capturing a much larger amount of time when you stop the scope.  Obviously, though, the large capture itself only happens when the scope is stopped.
No. Try triggering in normal mode on a single event and you'll see there will be a full capture. AFAIK only the newer Keysight scopes have this weird behaviour where you have to stop first (much like pressing the 'single' button) before getting a full acquisition.

I should have been more precise.  The large capture that contains multiple events that would fire the trigger only happens when the scope is stopped.  The trigger re-arm time is defined by the time distance between the trigger location on the screen and the edge of the screen, no?

If the trigger re-arm time is defined by the amount of time represented by the capture buffer then
I think you are confusing a couple of things. For clarity:
- trigger re-arm time is the time needed between finishing a capture and making the acquisition hardware ready for the next capture. This is also called dead time.
- the time needed for the acquisition is number of samples * 1/samplerate. So 10Mpts at 1Gs/s takes 10M * 1n= 10ms

The total time for an acquisition cycle is the time needed for the acquisition + the trigger re-arm time + time it takes for an event to appear

What is different between Siglent and other oscilloscopes is that Siglent dynamically alters the number of samples to sample only enough to fill the screen regardless of the memory depth selected by the user.
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Offline kcbrown

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I think you are confusing a couple of things. For clarity:
- trigger re-arm time is the time needed between finishing a capture and making the acquisition hardware ready for the next capture. This is also called dead time.
- the time needed for the acquisition is number of samples * 1/samplerate. So 10Mpts at 1Gs/s takes 10M * 1n= 10ms

The total time for an acquisition cycle is the time needed for the acquisition + the trigger re-arm time + time it takes for an event to appear

What is different between Siglent and other oscilloscopes is that Siglent dynamically alters the number of samples to sample only enough to fill the screen regardless of the memory depth selected by the user.

OK, so I apparently did misunderstand how the acquisition of the Instek works.  This means the Siglent actually gives you an advantage here, because it gives you fine-grained control over the acquisition rate, whilst the Instek only gives you coarse control by way of specifying the acquisition buffer size.

I'll modify my original message to reflect the consequences of this, because they're not insignificant.
 

Offline tautech

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I think you are confusing a couple of things. For clarity:
- trigger re-arm time is the time needed between finishing a capture and making the acquisition hardware ready for the next capture. This is also called dead time.
- the time needed for the acquisition is number of samples * 1/samplerate. So 10Mpts at 1Gs/s takes 10M * 1n= 10ms

The total time for an acquisition cycle is the time needed for the acquisition + the trigger re-arm time + time it takes for an event to appear

What is different between Siglent and other oscilloscopes is that Siglent dynamically alters the number of samples to sample only enough to fill the screen regardless of the memory depth selected by the user.

OK, so I apparently did misunderstand how the acquisition of the Instek works.  This means the Siglent actually gives you an advantage here, because it gives you fine-grained control over the acquisition rate, whilst the Instek only gives you coarse control by way of specifying the acquisition buffer size.
Is it not blatantly obvious there are 2 different capture philosophies used by the wfps datasheet spec ?
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Nico is right.
Only Keysight does this juggling.
Keysight in Normal mode keeps triggering and grabbing only screen full of data. Sometimes only 50 points. You can check that by sending single bursts from siggen manually.
Take a capture in RUN mode and try moving waveform horizontally or change timebase... And if you press STOP, it will do nothing with existing capture. Still no additional data.
It will actually wait for next trigger and that one will be taken same as if it were in SINGLE mode. So, on Keysight (3000T series) I confirm that going from RUN to STOP is similar to pressing SINGLE while in RUN mode. That one last capture will be full length.
Fun fact, if that last trigger it's waiting for, is delayed more than 100ms it will abort. So unlike SINGLE, it won't wait forever.
Keysight took a lot of time with all kinds of tricks like this to create an illusion that it takes long captures AND is fast at the same time. It isn't. It's just tricking user to think so..
On fast signals you would never know. Recently they added special capture mode to fix memory, because people wanted a mode where scope behaves deterministically....

So truth is, that with Keysight 3000T, you cannot notice something interesting on the screen while in RUN between triggers, press STOP and then look at the more data, like Dave and others think it works.  That last long capture will be next trigger....Or none if it times out. The one you wanted to zoom out, will be either lost, or will be screen size, nothing before or after...

Every other capture while in RUN mode is just what will fit on screen at current timebase.
Same as Siglent, except Siglent has much more memory and Siglent won't do that trick with switching to SINGLE going from RUN to  STOP.

On scopes that have fixed memory length, they will always capture full requested length. Rigols have a setting if you want memory to be Auto (Siglent style) or fixed length all the time..

So if you set Instek for 10 MS and you have it on any timebase that will keep 1 GS/sec, you will always get 10 ms of data, even if you set scope to 5ns/DIV. And have max 100 triggers per sec..

Regards,

Sinisa
 

Online 2N3055

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What is different between Siglent and other oscilloscopes is that Siglent dynamically alters the number of samples to sample only enough to fill the screen regardless of the memory depth selected by the user.

Keysight does it too, also Rigol and Micsig when set to Auto memory mode. It is normal mode, nothing unusual, or bad.
With Rigol and Micsig you do have a choice of strategy though, if that is important for user. Keysight sampler mode is too awkward to be used in normal work.
 

Online 2N3055

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OK, so I apparently did misunderstand how the acquisition of the Instek works.  This means the Siglent actually gives you an advantage here, because it gives you fine-grained control over the acquisition rate, whilst the Instek only gives you coarse control by way of specifying the acquisition buffer size.

I'll modify my original message to reflect the consequences of this, because they're not insignificant.

And now you understood exactly my point in lengthy discussion about scopes that "are better because they can set sample buffer size manually"..
It is easier and deterministic and requires no constant mental math (and less human errors because of it) to simply set time span you want to look at, capture the lot and then drill into detail.
The Siglent, LeCroy, Pico way. And Rigol ,Micsig R&S and many more support that memory management mode. With Siglent, Lecroy, R&S, Pico also supporting history mode, that lets you review previous captures..
If you really need to look at just a part of that big buffer, you open zoom window and dial in that exact time to look at.... Simple.

Nicos method does achieve same dataset, and saves screen space (zoom does take screen real estate, true), but is (to me) more convoluted to setup... But both work.
 

Offline kcbrown

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And now you understood exactly my point in lengthy discussion about scopes that "are better because they can set sample buffer size manually"..
It is easier and deterministic and requires no constant mental math (and less human errors because of it) to simply set time span you want to look at, capture the lot and then drill into detail.

Yep.  I recognized that early on: "It has the advantage of clarity, in that it makes it clear exactly what you're getting for any given capture, and it then is on you to set your timebase appropriately to capture what you need."


Quote
Nicos method does achieve same dataset, and saves screen space (zoom does take screen real estate, true), but is (to me) more convoluted to setup... But both work.

This is one of the reasons the SDS2000X+ series is so nice.  The screen is large enough that you still have a decent amount of waveform real-estate even in zoom mode.  On that scope, zoom mode is suddenly way more usable.  And it's clear they've done a lot to make it that way.  Even mask testing works in zoom mode now, something I viewed as perhaps the most significant shortcoming to Siglent's implementation.

Honestly, it wouldn't take much at this point for Siglent to change zoom mode so that it can, at the user's option, use the entire waveform display area of the screen for the zoomed section, and have the unzoomed section represented in iconic form in exactly the same way that most other scopes represent the capture buffer versus the viewed portion, namely:



All they would then need is some way to clearly indicate that zoom mode is active, since changing the horizontal scale would no longer change the acquisition timebase.

I'd love to see the same sort of thing on the SDS2000X+ as well, though it has enough screen real estate that they could use perhaps 1 vertical division's worth of real estate to represent the unzoomed view. 
« Last Edit: February 04, 2021, 01:42:19 am by kcbrown »
 
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Offline kcbrown

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Is it not blatantly obvious there are 2 different capture philosophies used by the wfps datasheet spec ?

The philosophies aren't as different as I thought, frankly.  Both fill the defined buffer.  The difference is in how the buffer is defined.

I'm frankly surprised that the Instek doesn't reenable the trigger immediately after it has gotten enough data to display.  Which is to say, I'm surprised the Instek's capture sequence isn't something like this (the below presumes a system with a circular memory buffer of size 2*N, where N is the number of sample points configured for the capture):

1.  Scope sets the start of the capture (call this S) to a predefined point in the buffer (probably just the absolute beginning address of the buffer), nulls the last trigger location (call this T), erases the display processor's list of frames, and begins acquisition.  Acquisition continues until the scope is stopped.

2.  While acquisition is going, it would take the following conditional actions:
  a.  If N points have been acquired and no trigger events have occurred since S, reset the acquisition location to S.
  b.  If N points have been acquired, and at least N/2 points have been acquired since T, then set S to the current acquisition location.
  c.  If the trigger conditions are met, set T to the current acquisition location and disarm the trigger.
  d.  If the current location corresponds to the rightmost acquisition point that would be shown on the screen after T, add the decimated data for the points from the beginning of the screen to the end of the screen to the display processor's list of frames, and re-arm the trigger.
  e.  If 1/60th of a second has passed since the last display update, the display processor combines all of the frames in its list (if any) into a single display frame and ships it to the screen, and clears its list.  If its frame list was empty then it does nothing.

3.  The scope is commanded to stop.  At this point:
  a.  If a trigger event has occurred within the last N points, then (if necessary) continue to acquire until either N/2 points past the last trigger point or until N points since S, whichever is later, then stop capture, and then make it possible to see the captured data from S to the current point (i.e., would make it possible to see N points, with at most N/2 before the last trigger point and at least N/2 after it).
  b.  If a trigger event has not occurred within the last N points, but the other half of the total buffer contains a trigger event (i.e., 2b happened), then make that other half available for display.
  c.  Otherwise, no trigger events occurred since the scope was started, so there's nothing to display.

With the above setup, the trigger would be re-armed when acquisition hits the rightmost edge of the screen relative to the trigger.  This would cause trigger events to be processed, and the display updated, not based on the length of the acquisition buffer but rather based on the width of the screen.  But once the scope is stopped, you'd have an entire capture buffer's worth of data at your disposal.

The above is approximate, of course.  I'm sure there are conditions that I haven't accounted for.  But hopefully you get the idea here.  In essence, the scope would always maintain a current circular acquisition buffer of N points, within a total memory buffer of 2*N points worth.  It's double buffering, in essence, but the double buffering is conditional upon the trigger having fired at least once within the last N points, and making the buffer continuous in this manner means that you don't have to play with bank switching or anything like that which might complicate processing.  But as a hardware matter, for it to work, the memory would need enough bandwidth to be written to at the sampling rate in one region while being read in a different region.  And, of course, decimation for screen display purposes would certainly have to happen in hardware (FPGA).

I'm not any kind of genius or anything.  That much should be obvious.   :)   The above seems straightforward in my naive estimation, so surely it has been thought of long before.  What is it about it that makes it unworkable in practice, such that there doesn't seem to be an inexpensive scope that does it (that I know of)?  It has the advantage of a trigger refresh rate that's as fast as the scope can manage combined with a traditional "the configured buffer always gets filled" end result that people expect.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2021, 10:12:54 am by kcbrown »
 


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