Tesla Recall

[Ed.Kloonk]

So Tesla has 'voluntarily' issued a bare-bones recall, while insisting that their electronic systems are only made to last 5-6 years.

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-computer-touchscreen-recall-nhtsa-designed-for-6-years-2021-2

Well, effectively the car will last 5-6 years. Ashtray should be full by then anyway.

[Monkeh]

So Tesla has 'voluntarily' issued a bare-bones recall, while insisting that their electronic systems are only made to last 5-6 years.

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-computer-touchscreen-recall-nhtsa-designed-for-6-years-2021-2

I just bought a six year old car last year and I have no expectation of any non-mechanical failures beyond random chance and lamps. Tesla clearly think they operate in a different universe.

[Syntax Error]

Tesla clearly think they operate in a different universe.

It's Elon Musk. They do.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk%27s_Tesla_Roadster

[Berni]

This part of the article is particularly 

Prescott went on to argue that it would be unreasonable for federal regulators to expect electronic parts to function properly for the entire lifetime of a vehicle, given that "electronic components are becoming increasingly more complex while, at the same time, the expected useful life of vehicles has grown substantially.

"It is economically, if not technologically, infeasible to expect that such components can or should be designed to last the vehicle's entire useful life," Prescott said.

My cheap $400 laptop has a longer lifespan than 5-6 years...

Technologically infeasible? They can figure out how to get a rocket to mars yet they can't figure out that using quality SLC flash memory and not write to it could make there infotainment system last past 25 years. So yeah its just a made up Apple like excuse of "Its not broken, you are using it wrong"

But yeah infotainment systems in general are becoming such an integral part of cars, if they break you got a paperweight.

My Volvo from 2014 appears to be using a spinning rust harddrive in the infotainment system because you can hear hard drive head seeking sounds when the infotainment system is loading things. I'm sure they gave it "rubber baby buggy bumpers" as Dave would say but still i am a a bit worried what happens when this hard drive eventually dies. The firmware is probably in flash memory since the boot screen comes up instantly. I think its keeping the satnav maps and the mp3 music (that you can copy onto internal memory from USB). So hopefully you just loose access to those features when the spinning rust grinds to a halt. If the whole infotainment goes belly up then i also loose radio, bluetooth, AC, heated seats, window defrosters, parking sensors... etc and access to all the car settings(of which there are many). It does also have a digital dash that appears to be a separate system and also likely boots from flash, if that fails its an even bigger issue.

That is assuming the car still runs with some of these systems dead. Its perfectly possible that some piece of code running in some computer box somewhere in the car expects a response from one of these, and if it doesn't get one or gets a weird response in a crashed state that it does something stupid, preventing the car from starting or driving.

[tszaboo]

This part of the article is particularly 

Prescott went on to argue that it would be unreasonable for federal regulators to expect electronic parts to function properly for the entire lifetime of a vehicle, given that "electronic components are becoming increasingly more complex while, at the same time, the expected useful life of vehicles has grown substantially.

"It is economically, if not technologically, infeasible to expect that such components can or should be designed to last the vehicle's entire useful life," Prescott said.

My cheap $400 laptop has a longer lifespan than 5-6 years...

Technologically infeasible? They can figure out how to get a rocket to mars yet they can't figure out that using quality SLC flash memory and not write to it could make there infotainment system last past 25 years. So yeah its just a made up Apple like excuse of "Its not broken, you are using it wrong"

Oh wow, such a statement. He is clearly not a person who should make any claims about electronics.
There is a huge difference between some electronics failing due to some conditions, and electronics failing every single case, using the car normally. I can see, why electronics would fail in a car. Vibrations can break solder points in an ECU. Random mechanical part failing can wreak havoc in the electronics.
An ECU failing, because it is writing the same part of a flash memory? No, Mr Prescott, I'm sorry, but that's unacceptable, and bad engineering. What's next, you increase a counter every kilometers driven and if the counter is bigger than a number, new inverter for 5K?

[Halcyon]

My Volvo from 2014 appears to be using a spinning rust harddrive in the infotainment system because you can hear hard drive head seeking sounds when the infotainment system is loading things. I'm sure they gave it "rubber baby buggy bumpers" as Dave would say but still i am a a bit worried what happens when this hard drive eventually dies. The firmware is probably in flash memory since the boot screen comes up instantly. I think its keeping the satnav maps and the mp3 music (that you can copy onto internal memory from USB). So hopefully you just loose access to those features when the spinning rust grinds to a halt. If the whole infotainment goes belly up then i also loose radio, bluetooth, AC, heated seats, window defrosters, parking sensors... etc and access to all the car settings(of which there are many). It does also have a digital dash that appears to be a separate system and also likely boots from flash, if that fails its an even bigger issue.

Probably. Even modern Mercedes Benz (and others) use spinning 2.5" drives. But they don't store any critical data. Replace the disk, the system should re-initialise and off you go again (they are usually behind the infotainment unit).

[thinkfat]

Well OK, I might not expect an entertainment device (cheap Android tablet or smartphone) to live longer than 5-6 years because of whatever 'wear', but I'm buying a car that just happens to have such system in it. Am I expected to know, and be comfortable with, a car becoming unusable because the built-in, glorified tablet computer thing dies after 5-6 years when I'm out of warranty? Geez, they've got some nerve! If that isn't dodgy I don't know what is. Their argumentation is, for sure!

[Berni]

Oh wow, such a statement. He is clearly not a person who should make any claims about electronics.
There is a huge difference between some electronics failing due to some conditions, and electronics failing every single case, using the car normally. I can see, why electronics would fail in a car. Vibrations can break solder points in an ECU. Random mechanical part failing can wreak havoc in the electronics.
An ECU failing, because it is writing the same part of a flash memory? No, Mr Prescott, I'm sorry, but that's unacceptable, and bad engineering. What's next, you increase a counter every kilometers driven and if the counter is bigger than a number, new inverter for 5K?

Exactly my point.

Sure electronics have a hard life inside cars. And they do fail sometimes but ever since the introduction of fancy electronics in cars the car manufacturers have been pushing for there improvement to make them as reliable as everything else. They came up with AEC qualification for electronics components used in these fancy computers to make sure the components themselves are manufactured to proper specs required for automotive use. The finished modules are put trough tough tests to make sure they hold up. The results speak for themselves in my opinion. Sure failiures might be more common on modern cars just because they have more features. You can't have your ABS system throw an error if you don't have an ABS system. You can't have a power steering failure if your car doesn't have power steering. But even in these cases i think its rather rare for a box of electronics to die, often the errors they throw are related to a mechanical failure or a sensor/wiring failure.

So in this sense a electric car like a Tesla should be more reliable than a classical gasoline car, there are much fewer moving parts to fail.

Then again Apple will also sell you a new motherboard for your broken "does not turn on" MacBook while all you need is a guy like Louis Rossmann taking 10 minutes of his time to replace a display connector. All while these laptops are full of design flaws that make them unreliable in the long term. Yet fanboys still flock to them.

[bdunham7]

Tesla didn't bother with 'automotive grade'.

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/29200/customers-revolt-as-fix-for-teslas-touchscreen-yellow-band-problem-remains-elusive

[Dr. Frank]

Oh wow, such a statement. He is clearly not a person who should make any claims about electronics.
There is a huge difference between some electronics failing due to some conditions, and electronics failing every single case, using the car normally. I can see, why electronics would fail in a car. Vibrations can break solder points in an ECU. Random mechanical part failing can wreak havoc in the electronics.
An ECU failing, because it is writing the same part of a flash memory? No, Mr Prescott, I'm sorry, but that's unacceptable, and bad engineering. What's next, you increase a counter every kilometers driven and if the counter is bigger than a number, new inverter for 5K?

Exactly my point.

Sure electronics have a hard life inside cars. And they do fail sometimes but ever since the introduction of fancy electronics in cars the car manufacturers have been pushing for there improvement to make them as reliable as everything else. They came up with AEC qualification for electronics components used in these fancy computers to make sure the components themselves are manufactured to proper specs required for automotive use. The finished modules are put trough tough tests to make sure they hold up. The results speak for themselves in my opinion. Sure failiures might be more common on modern cars just because they have more features. You can't have your ABS system throw an error if you don't have an ABS system. You can't have a power steering failure if your car doesn't have power steering. But even in these cases i think its rather rare for a box of electronics to die, often the errors they throw are related to a mechanical failure or a sensor/wiring failure.

So in this sense a electric car like a Tesla should be more reliable than a classical gasoline car, there are much fewer moving parts to fail.

Then again Apple will also sell you a new motherboard for your broken "does not turn on" MacBook while all you need is a guy like Louis Rossmann taking 10 minutes of his time to replace a display connector. All while these laptops are full of design flaws that make them unreliable in the long term. Yet fanboys still flock to them.

Hello NANDBlog and Berni,

just to enforce my former statement, regular Automotive electronics are designed and tested  completely to assure they last the whole car life, w/o any excuses, exceptions or limitations on a certain use case.

The AEC-Q xxx  standards make sure that this is secured on 'Component Level', i.e. to assure that the naked components are fit for automotive environmental conditions regarding temperature, humidity, ESD, EMC and so on.

Additionally there are defined requirements and tests on 'Board Level', i.e. to assure that the components can be safely assembled on the usual automotive grade PCBs AND that the connection techniques (leadfree soldering joints, glueing, bonding, etc.) are reliable over the whole cars life under automotive environmental conditions (e.g. vibration, temperature shock and PCB bending are added).

At last, there are defined requirements and tests on 'Application Level', i.e. to assure that the whole finished electronic device / product is reliable under automotive environmental conditions, (e.g. vibration, humidity and temperature tests of the complete device), but also regarding drift and deterioration processes over the whole car life.

This latter aspect refers to the TESLA eMMC problem, which is definitely prohibited by any regular Automotive grade Tier 1, and not accepted at all by any regular Automotive grade OEM. Same would be the case for that middle display problem. The occurrence of this is problem (due to missing validation testing) is not acceptable at all, as well the customer claim handling by TESLA is unacceptable.

PS: For changes on Electronic Components, 'PCN', a description for these three cases A, B, C can be found in a German Automotive standard called DQM (Delta Qualification Matrix 4.1), published by the ZVEI:
https://www.zvei.org/en/subjects/mobility/product-process-change-notification-method-in-automotive-electronics/


Further details for A level changes will be published elsewhere.

Frank

[gnuarm]

Tesla didn't bother with 'automotive grade'.

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/29200/customers-revolt-as-fix-for-teslas-touchscreen-yellow-band-problem-remains-elusive

Yeah, I've got the yellow screen problem and I'm pissed about it.  Really pissed.  I can't even get them to provide the UV cure.  Every time I ask they say the UV unit is out of order or something similar. 

Tesla service is the biggest bunch of BS I've ever seen.  I used to post in the Tesla Motor Club about the car, but if you aren't a fanboi you are literally threatened with excommunication.  I have been banned from the group more than once just because I try to have an open discussion of the facts. 

It is hard for me to imagine there is such a large group of owners who are happy to ignore that a car is a fundamentally utilitarian product and that Teslas fall far short of the goal in many respects.  Once the other automakers start ramping up big time Tesla will lose its appeal and things won't be all roses for the company. 

[AVGresponding]

I used to post in the Tesla Motor Club about the car, but if you aren't a fanboi you are literally threatened with excommunication.  I have been banned from the group more than once just because I try to have an open discussion of the facts.

Perhaps this is the cue for you to set up a "Real Tesla Owners Forum".

If Musk is relying on the Apple business model to brainwash and browbeat his customers, he may be in for a nasty shock. The automotive industry is much more mature and regulated, and the big traditional manufacturers may appear on the surface to be crusty old dinosaurs, but they are money motivated and utterly ruthless when it comes to destroying the opposition given any chink in the armour.

[gnuarm]

I used to post in the Tesla Motor Club about the car, but if you aren't a fanboi you are literally threatened with excommunication.  I have been banned from the group more than once just because I try to have an open discussion of the facts.

Perhaps this is the cue for you to set up a "Real Tesla Owners Forum".

If Musk is relying on the Apple business model to brainwash and browbeat his customers, he may be in for a nasty shock. The automotive industry is much more mature and regulated, and the big traditional manufacturers may appear on the surface to be crusty old dinosaurs, but they are money motivated and utterly ruthless when it comes to destroying the opposition given any chink in the armour.

Not me, I'm afraid of Tesla.  There's a guy who posted videos of his work resurrecting salvaged Teslas.  He made a bunch from Youtube but also earned a ton of Tesla rewards from referrals.  His videos were not really negative, but he would point out issues.  Then he came out with a video that Tesla didn't like and they banned him from the referrals program and invalidated all his referrals for "bad faith".  I think he had earned a Roadster!  Now he gets bupkis.

One of his videos I was amazed about documented his efforts to buy a used Tesla from Tesla.  Rich doesn't exaggerate or color the events, he simply documents and reports.  It was months of dealing with different people by phone and getting nowhere, not even confirmation of where the car was!  This was after he had committed to buying the car.  Once he is told he can pick up the car, he drives for hours and the car is nowhere to be found.

I don't know how people don't hear about the way Tesla treats customers and continue to buy the cars.  I guess people figure they won't be getting in trouble with Tesla.

I bought my car early enough that I have free lifetime supercharging.  They can yank that from me if I make waves.  No, I won't be poking the bear.

[bdunham7]

Tesla service is the biggest bunch of BS I've ever seen.  I used to post in the Tesla Motor Club about the car, but if you aren't a fanboi you are literally threatened with excommunication.  I have been banned from the group more than once just because I try to have an open discussion of the facts. 

It is hard for me to imagine there is such a large group of owners who are happy to ignore that a car is a fundamentally utilitarian product and that Teslas fall far short of the goal in many respects.  Once the other automakers start ramping up big time Tesla will lose its appeal and things won't be all roses for the company.

Welcome to the new order, where Orwell's 1984 is banned, Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451 is burned and truth is considered FUD if it upsets anyone.  All in the name of peace, harmony and 'data protection'.

A friend who lives in an area where Tesla is less common bought a 3 and was happy with it until the screen went dark.  100 mile tow to the service center and they told him it was his fault because his USB drive (for recording camera video) was full and that caused it to lock up.  A week or so later the screen quit again after an OTA update, so another 100 mile tow and apparently they've now managed to fix it.  One more time an it's a lemon and he's a lawyer, so....

[Bassman59]

Why is it that they along with other car manufactures have decided to delete the spare tire?  In case you haven't noticed you can't get roadside assistance with a blow out on NY State roads from a tow truck company that will take you somewhere other than the exit to the Parkway.

IDK, My Toyota just came with an emergency repair kit. If you have a spare tire, and it is in your trunk for 10 years, unused, who guarantees, that it will even work? Or it has enough air in it?

The “emergency repair kit” — basically a can of Fix-a-Flat — is useless when the tire shreds because it either blew out at speed, or even just driving the car for a few feet until you realize that the tire you didn’t check that morning was flat.

Of course, the can of Fix-a-Flat has a shelf life, too.

[tszaboo]

The AEC-Q xxx  standards make sure that this is secured on 'Component Level', i.e. to assure that the naked components are fit for automotive environmental conditions regarding temperature, humidity, ESD, EMC and so on.

I'm aware of the standards, and what they are for.
On the other hand, I'm not sure if it is a legal requirement  to actually pass these to be able to place a car on the market, I believe it is not. Can someone clarify?
As I understand traditional car manufacturers, like VW (for example) ask their suppliers, like Bosch (for example) so their parts pass AEC-Q. Otherwise the Quality control team of VW wouldn't allow to place the part in their car.
There is actually no requirements by the European Commission (for example) to pass AEC-Q, since it would make the life of small manufacturers impossible. And Tesla or Peugeot can place any part they actually want in their cars, and end up with unreliable cars.
If I'm wrong, please someone correct me.

[Syntax Error]

Tesla ( aka Elon Musk ) hoovers up BTC

Wall Street Journal : Tesla Buys $1.5 Billion in Bitcoin : "Cryptocurrency’s price soars after electric-vehicle maker says it soon expects to accept customer payments in bitcoin"

https://www.wsj.com/articles/tesla-buys-1-5-billion-in-bitcoin-11612791688

Why? Because he's a geek and he can.

[Berni]

Yeah Musk does a lot of things "just because he can"

There are a lot of strong opinions about bitcoin out there, i personalty think its too unstable to be a useful currency for everyday use and we are burning a crap top of power for no reason to mine it, but i find the whole idea interesting none the less.

But i do like the silly side of Elon. Most big companies are a bunch of boring stuck up business men that wouldn't know a joke even if it hit them in the face, if anything finding it offensive and "damaging to our brand". But Tesla on the other hand purposely chooses model names to spell out S E X Y and stuffs the software on it so full of easter eggs that the easter bunny must be jealous. What other car calls the sport mode "ludicrous mode" and shows a star trek warp speed animation upon turning it on. Silly things like that make a product feel more friendly in my opinion.

[floobydust]

JD Power survey placed Tesla last out of 32 vehicle brands in terms of quality. Well, it's gotta be pretty bad:
"The State Administration for Market Regulation, China’s top market regulator, said Monday that it and four other regulators had instructed Tesla to abide by Chinese laws and regulations and strengthen internal management to ensure the quality and safety of its products."
"In a statement late Monday in China, Tesla Shanghai said it “sincerely accepted the guidance of government departments.” It said it had “deeply reflected on shortcomings” and was working on strengthening its operations. It also said it would investigate Chinese consumers’ complaints and abide by Chinese laws and regulations."

[gnuarm]

Wow!  I hadn't heard that.  I'd like to see Musk break bad with the Chinese like he did with the Alameda County government when they wanted to keep them shut down at the beginning of the pandemic.  He threatened to leave CA, but that only means the "HQ" really.  That factory is going nowhere. 

Tesla is going to continue ramping up in 2021 with Berlin coming on line, then see slower growth in 2022.  They will be bringing online the roadster/pickup/semi in an order they've not indicated.  None of the three will be big growth products for them... possibly the semi, but the issue is going to be charging.  There are chargers everywhere, but the semi needs 8 of them and many locations only have 8.  Initially the semi will only be used for hauls that allow for charging at the start and end points.  That's not a lot of semis really. 

I really can't see the semi selling well.  The roadster is a high profit item, but how many $200,000 cars can you sell?  Maybe they should price it at a million.  Don't have to sell nearly as many of those!

[floobydust]

I expect a car to last more than "5-6 years" because I'm non-rich and can't buy the latest and greatest model every few years. In Canada, cars die either due to rust (get a DeLorean!) or the repair costs because the dealerships gouge on parts/repairs to push you into just getting a new car.

Tesla stock is a huge bubble right now, market cap $811B - worth more than at least 7-8 major car manufacturers COMBINED. Every other car maker is on their tail trying to make something electric, competition is going to get fierce. Nobody has time to make quality. There's going to be many fires, recalls, crashes with electric vehicles as well as insane repair costs due to bad engineering.

I can't see Tesla stock actually worth this much. 2020Q4 production 500,000 cars.
Mind you the entire stock market is at record highs and Tesla buying $1.5B worth of Bitcoin for a cache, seems like more air for the bubble.

[gnuarm]

I don't short stocks as there is unlimited risk unless you cover it.  But if any stock was ripe for a bubble being burst, this is the one.  It may not happen soon unless the entire market drops big time.  Towards the end of the year or next year will be the reckoning in my opinion.  There are so many fanbois out there, it has more support than Gamestop any day.

[Bud]

. What other car calls the sport mode "ludicrous mode" and shows a star trek warp speed animation upon turning it on.

Send them Satta Nadella, the CEO of Microsoft, and in no time they will put the giant display to good use running a clunky tile plain flat interface with 5 updates a day following reboots. That is going to be fun to watch.

[gnuarm]

I found this the other day.  Atom???  Could they find a more lame processor?

[Monkeh]

I found this the other day.  Atom???  Could they find a more lame processor?

Err, included under the Atom range is a series with up to 24-cores, 32 PCIe lanes, 16 SATA ports, 100Gbps (yes, that's two zeros) ethernet, and support for 128GiB of RAM. Pretty lame.