Affordable license?

[PlainName]

honestly don't see any significant difference between the current version and 5 versions back

Incremental fixes/improvements in Draughtsman.
Fixes/improvements for flex PCBs.
Improvements in balanced tracks.

OTOH, Viewer 09 starts up near enough instantly, whereas Viewer 20 takes quite a bit longer. I guess that's the difference between 300MB and 5GB

[nth_degree]

Looks like I’m going with Protel99SE, on a $100 tiny mini micro.
I don’t want to steal and Altium are making a mistake not providing a free method to learn their platform. When I do turn a profit they won’t get any of it now. They join the virtue signaling for weight loss club, bc less food on their oh so righteous table.

[PlainName]

Protel99SE isn't free, is it? So technically you're stealing that instead.

And... when/if you get money, what are you going to buy? The only thing that 99SE will give you experience of is Altium, so you'd be starting from scratch again. Surely it would be better to go with Kicad - by the time you have money to spend it will have improved quite a bit and be up to whatever task you need it to do. And still be free. On the other hand, if you decide it's not up to the task you'll have the same 'weird interface' experience with whatever you buy than if you used 99SE. But you wouldn't have stolen anything meantime.

[nth_degree]

You can get 99SE licenses on ebay for $13 right now. So I’m not stealing

There’s no way I’m wasting my time on kicad, they can’t give it away for a reason. I mean load it up side by side w Altium. It sucks. I’m sorry but it’s just bad software and a waste of time to learn and then have to unlearn. It reminds me of microsoft paint

[voltsandjolts]

The OP started this thread nearly two months ago.
They could have been an expert in KiCAD by now, or indeed any other package.
Instead, I think they are more interested in trolling than learning.

[PlainName]

You can get 99SE licenses on ebay for $13 right now. So I’m not stealing

I seriously doubt if they are pukka licenses. You're basically paying someone to run a keygen and supply a fake key.

[ataradov]

Yeah, I doubt you will get a legit copy of it now. All the listings you see on eBay and the likes are all fake. And $100 is overpaying for that, they are usually much cheaper.

It is also strange to move to a dead software that may stop functioning on new OSes any time.

[VK3DRB]

Quote: What features and updates make you smile every 6 weeks? I too use Altium Designer and honestly don't see any significant difference between the current version and 5 versions back. Maybe it stopped crashing so often but this is what one expects for the price.
I am just curious.

It's not the features and updates that make me smile, it's the fact that I'm getting ANY features and updates. Circuit Studio has gone years without badly needed features and updates.

A big pain in the arse is the subscription cost. Now nearing $3K per annum! Altium's support is useless - you might as well be talking to a brick wall.And they are adding so much crapware. Every company I have had to connect with has had issues setting up Altium 365; and don't get me started on their "100 ways to skin a cat" library management. So that leaves bug fixes. It is reprehensible to have to pay a fortune for bug fixes on dodgy software. Gates did that for years by disguising major bug fixes as new releases of Windows.

KiCad will mature, or Autodesk will come up with something that will beat Altium, and then Altium will be in trouble. Already I know a company using KiCad instead of Altium.

[mkissin]

A big pain in the arse is the subscription cost. Now nearing $3K per annum! Altium's support is useless - you might as well be talking to a brick wall.And they are adding so much crapware. Every company I have had to connect with has had issues setting up Altium 365; and don't get me started on their "100 ways to skin a cat" library management. So that leaves bug fixes. It is reprehensible to have to pay a fortune for bug fixes on dodgy software. Gates did that for years by disguising major bug fixes as new releases of Windows.

KiCad will mature, or Autodesk will come up with something that will beat Altium, and then Altium will be in trouble. Already I know a company using KiCad instead of Altium.

This always sounds good in theory, but Autodesk has already played its hand (IMO) on this...Fusion 360 and Inventor etc are all subscription only.

The update policy is even worse for SolidWorks. An old version won't open new files at all, and if you do open an old file with a new version, it will silently "upgrade" them, making them unopenable in the older version!

This is just the way it is for big software. At least Altium will sell you a perpetual license, and it has total file compatibility between versions. Could be lots worse.

[thm_w]

Solidworks will warn you when saving an older version as a newer version. But I agree its a shitty tactic, when the actual difference between many major releases is minimal.

I think Eagle still has its free version, but its overly crippled (2 layer, small board area, etc.). Also don't think autodesk is putting a ton of resources into it in terms of development.
https://www.autodesk.ca/en/products/eagle/features

[alm]

I think Eagle still has its free version, but its overly crippled (2 layer, small board area, etc.). Also don't think autodesk is putting a ton of resources into it in terms of development.
https://www.autodesk.ca/en/products/eagle/features

Not a ton of resources? The last standalone (non-Fusion360) release was in 2020. The development is dead, Jim. It's a dead-end unless you plan to migrate to Fusion360. The best you get is a 'free subscription' to Fusion360 which they can discontinue whenever they feel like it.

[thm_w]

I think Eagle still has its free version, but its overly crippled (2 layer, small board area, etc.). Also don't think autodesk is putting a ton of resources into it in terms of development.
https://www.autodesk.ca/en/products/eagle/features

Not a ton of resources? The last standalone (non-Fusion360) release was in 2020. The development is dead, Jim. It's a dead-end unless you plan to migrate to Fusion360. The best you get is a 'free subscription' to Fusion360 which they can discontinue whenever they feel like it.

Yeah I think you told me this already.
But I meant the one integrated into fusion 360, I guess its not called eagle any more.

edit: they overhauled the UI at least


Seems simplistic in some areas but has some interesting features:
- flat cap end on trace
- CAD style component orientation and alignment

Same super crippled limitations for free version:

[voltsandjolts]

Hmmm, 80cm x 80cm
mm me thinks

[thm_w]

Hmmm, 80cm x 80cm
mm me thinks

lol didn't even notice that, yeah its 80x80mm or so area in the app that you can place components in.

Only up to 16 layers for the paid version? What are they doing, setting up a pre-scheduled 100% upgrade of 'layer capacity' every year for the next 28 years?

I don't think anyone will be using fusion for a 16 layer design any time soon. Probably just a basic feature limitation they have in place.

[dfnr2]

There’s no way I’m wasting my time on kicad, they can’t give it away for a reason. I mean load it up side by side w Altium. It sucks. I’m sorry but it’s just bad software and a waste of time to learn and then have to unlearn. It reminds me of microsoft paint

Wow, harsh :-)  I've been using Altium ever since they dipped their price to $4k back in 2009.  I've kept the subscription up to date since then.  It's great, bugs and all.  For the past few years, I'd try Kicad periodically before dismissing it.  It might have been a toy 5 years ago, but not any more.

At version 5, it became good enough to use for open-source hobby projects, where accessibility was more important than the niceties of Altium. 

At version 6, it was good enough to use for some small professional projects. 

As of version 7, it has outstripped most low-end commercial packages and is good enough that I can see not renewing support on Altium.  Kicad is definitely looking at Altium as a source of features, and now has many of the best features of Altium  including:

• powerful properties dialogs and part selection facilities
• database libraries
• scriptable output generation, and alternative to Altium's OutJob facility, which might actually be more powerful because it can use CI to generate packages of production files automatically
• meaningful cut/past/multichannel operations that work well with hierarchical sheets
• improved ability to break out traces from high density pads
• decent handling of complex pad shapes
• 3D spacemouse support!
• Python scripting
• Excellent cross probing capabilities
• Smart PDF capabilities

Altium still has an edge in a number of areas but the list, and the distance between the two, is shrinking.  Here's a partial list:

• available plugins/integration of high-end (expensive) tools
• Better BOM generation.  Altium uses templates with good substitution capabilities.  Kicad relies on plugins, and even the best of those are not as good as Altium's
• Graphical comparison of revisions on disk or in source control, and easy facility to load prior revisions.  Although services like Cadlab.io can fill in the gap for now.
• Better bulk parts-editing capabilities with spreadsheet-like interface.
• more mature breakout and routing tools
• More powerful 3D modeling and manipulation capabilities
• multiboard and flex-PCB support
• Slightly less jittery routing, but this gap is narrow and is constantly narrowing.
• more consistent UI between schematic and PCB.  For example, alignment tools work in schematic and PCB

It would be nice if Kicad supported multiple projects and files open at once, with tabbed/tiled panes, like Altium.  But it's very usable.  I fully expect that kicad will start to nip at the lower end of Altium's potential new user pool.  It may even displace some licensed seats that have been solid until now.

[thm_w]

My company already has displaced Altium (>10 seats by now) with KiCAD. We've fabricated many different PCBAs and wiring harnesses with only KiCAD as of this month. It's been fantastic so far.

On that note, if anyone experienced with KiCAD and located in the SF Bay Area is interested in doing it full-time -- send me a PM if you want to meet up to chat! We are hiring for EE roles including internship level right now: https://jobs.lever.co/teleo

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/jobs/

[Zbig]

Regarding Electronics module in Fusion 360 (formerly known as Eagle): unless recently changed, there was a ridiculous artificial added nuisance for the users of personal license, not mentioned in the comparison table, that was making it literally unusable for me. What I mean is it wouldn't allow you to temporarily place your components outside of the PCB outline; you had to stuff them all inside the PCB boundary and then Tetris them within said boundary. Adding insult to injury, not sure if by design, negligence or my rotten luck of finding edge cases, in my project all the components got placed outside the PCB by default (i.e. defaulted to the invalid state) and couldn't be moved anywhere from there. IIRC I found an even sillier work-around for this stupid limitation by finding out they apparently forgot you could also move stuff with arrow keys instead of with a mouse and haven't disabled that. I ended up applying for a trial and finishing my project like that until my installation reverted to Personal.

[PlainName]

What I mean is it wouldn't allow you to temporarily place your components outside of the PCB outline

To be clear, are you saying that to place components outside the PCB you have to upgrade to a more expensive package?

[Zbig]

To be clear, are you saying that to place components outside the PCB you have to upgrade to a more expensive package?

Yes. I even heard about this "feature" being glossed-over in one of the official tutorial videos. You cannot move PCB components outside the board outline while on Personal license (admittedly, it's free). Except, sometimes you can. Kind of. Until you cannot again. Try opening one of the example designs, perform "Unroute / All" and try to drag out elements outside the PCB. Most of the time, you'll get an error message from the attachment. Sometimes you get lucky and 1 out of 10 tries the part will sitck outside but there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it. Then again, if you use your arrow keys to move the part and then confirm with ENTER, that seems to work most of the time. To me, the way it's implemented, suggests either of these two:

• There was a task called "Make freeloaders suffer" in Autodesk's issue tracker and someone had 5 minutes to spare before lunch so came up with this kludge and called it good.
• It's a deliberate attempt at frustrating the user who just spent the last week designing the board schematic and is now trying to lay it out and to make them rage-buy a commercial license just to be done with it.

[Karel]

That was already the case with the original Cadsoft Eagle V7, V6 and earlier versions.
But if I remember well, when converting the schematic to board, all footprints were placed in a default rectangular boardshape and
you couldn't move them outside the board shape. This usually created problems only when you want to design a crowded board.

[PlainName]

Blimey. If I wasn't already put off that stuff I would be now

[thm_w]

Yes. I even heard about this "feature" being glossed-over in one of the official tutorial videos. You cannot move PCB components outside the board outline while on Personal license (admittedly, it's free). Except, sometimes you can. Kind of. Until you cannot again. Try opening one of the example designs, perform "Unroute / All" and try to drag out elements outside the PCB. Most of the time, you'll get an error message from the attachment. Sometimes you get lucky and 1 out of 10 tries the part will sitck outside but there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it. Then again, if you use your arrow keys to move the part and then confirm with ENTER, that seems to work most of the time. To me, the way it's implemented, suggests either of these two:

• There was a task called "Make freeloaders suffer" in Autodesk's issue tracker and someone had 5 minutes to spare before lunch so came up with this kludge and called it good.
• It's a deliberate attempt at frustrating the user who just spent the last week designing the board schematic and is now trying to lay it out and to make them rage-buy a commercial license just to be done with it.

I mean the limitation is clearly explained above (with a terrible typo, but you get the idea), free is limited to a board size of 80x80mm.

They COULD let you lay out the entire board, hit generate gerber, and then pop up an error "too bad, more than 80mm" that would piss me off more. The limit is dumb. The way they implemented the limit is reasonable, IMO.

[VK3DRB]

If I retire later this year, I can offer my Altium license with the subscription at a big discount if anyone is interested. Will swap for a Tesla .

[EEVblog]

A new Altum license just dropped:
https://www.altium.com/altium-designer/licensing/individual
US$2k/year for individuals and small startups.

[PlainName]

It looked to me like they were repositioning into the high-end of CAD and expecting the increased cost to give more income than that lost through cheap users. But if they've now got a starter license perhaps they just think money grows on trees.