Author Topic: New Siglent SDM4000A series Multimeter  (Read 74175 times)

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Offline Bad_Driver

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Re: New Siglent SDM4000A series Multimeter
« Reply #150 on: May 04, 2025, 08:48:05 am »
As far as I could tell from the photos, the new 4065 uses the same ADC and the same reference as the 3065. Otherwise, the two devices are quite similar.

What’s interesting is the digitizing mode, which is a feature of the ADC used. It would be great if someone could test it, especially regarding the temporal consistency of the sampling intervals.
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Online Shimonu

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Re: New Siglent SDM4000A series Multimeter
« Reply #151 on: May 04, 2025, 02:15:32 pm »
Do they come with any calibration certificate?
 

Offline tonyalbus

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Re: New Siglent SDM4000A series Multimeter
« Reply #152 on: May 05, 2025, 07:34:17 am »
it comes with [Certificate of Calibration]
1 sheet A4/letter, which basicly says:
Appearance test, Function test, safety test and calibration
done on fluke 5522A , at date, time, temp, sn.
it passed calibration [OK]
signed by engineer

Like this: https://www.siglenteu.com/operating-tip/faq-calibration-traceability/
« Last Edit: May 05, 2025, 07:38:23 am by tonyalbus »
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Offline Martin72

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Re: New Siglent SDM4000A series Multimeter
« Reply #153 on: May 15, 2025, 04:25:50 pm »
Today, my 10V reference arrived, which will serve as a “placeholder” until my adjustable reference is finally calibrated.
Equipped with ADR1399, burned in for 4 weeks, calibrated with a 7.5 digit meter.
I ran it together with the SDM3065X and the SDM4065A-SC for an hour at a room temperature of 20.8°C.
Both meters show slightly higher readings, in the case of the SDM4065A by around +14ppm, which is not bad. ;)
(Provided that the calibration of the reference can be relied upon)
I will log the progress over several hours with the test controller program at the weekend.
Oh, and the Brymen is performing quite well in the higher resolution mode.
 
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Offline Martin72

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Re: New Siglent SDM4000A series Multimeter
« Reply #154 on: May 16, 2025, 05:30:21 pm »
The test has been running for over an hour now, let's see how long I leave it running today.
What you can see is that the two settled down in the first 20 minutes or so.
I should mention that I had “burned in” the 3065X for about 6 weeks and also had the SDM4065 in continuous operation for about 3 weeks.
What's interesting is that both meters measure the voltage higher. I actually had the impression that people had complained about the opposite in the SDM3000X thread. ;)



 
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Offline tautech

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Re: New Siglent SDM4000A series Multimeter
« Reply #155 on: May 16, 2025, 08:10:50 pm »
What's interesting is that both meters measure the voltage higher. I actually had the impression that people had complained about the opposite in the SDM3000X thread. ;)
You can tweak the Cal, well at least in the SDM3065X and this User adjustment was added for owners to adjust precisely for drift as the DDM reference ages.
IIRC this feature is in the Utility menu.

I liked at anytime you could return to the factory Cal.
Guessing SDM4000A has it too but I don't remember checking for it when at HQ.

Defpom did a video on adjustment which should be linked in the OP of the SDM3000X thread.
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: New Siglent SDM4000A series Multimeter
« Reply #156 on: May 16, 2025, 08:25:18 pm »
The test has been running for over an hour now, let's see how long I leave it running today.
What you can see is that the two settled down in the first 20 minutes or so.
I should mention that I had “burned in” the 3065X for about 6 weeks and also had the SDM4065 in continuous operation for about 3 weeks.
What's interesting is that both meters measure the voltage higher. I actually had the impression that people had complained about the opposite in the SDM3000X thread. ;)

Stability already looks better on the 4000. You might want to change the scale to zoom in a bit.

What was the temp and RH for the ref cal?
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Offline Martin72

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Re: New Siglent SDM4000A series Multimeter
« Reply #157 on: May 16, 2025, 08:32:54 pm »
@Rob:That's a good idea, Rob, but I'll leave that to others when I send the meter in for its first calibration after factory calibration.
The calibration will cost around €150, which is worth it to me.

I have now finished logging after a little over 4 hours.
I think the results are more than acceptable.
I have also attached the log export.

Edit: Room temp 21.3°C, RH 48%
« Last Edit: May 16, 2025, 08:42:24 pm by Martin72 »
 

Offline tautech

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Re: New Siglent SDM4000A series Multimeter
« Reply #158 on: May 16, 2025, 08:42:07 pm »
@Rob:That's a good idea, Rob, but I'll leave that to others when I send the meter in for its first calibration after factory calibration.
The calibration will cost around €150, which is worth it to me.
Well good luck with a Cal lab !  :horse:

One major US one didn't even know SDM3000 were adjustable and recommended they should be binned when outta spec !  :palm:
Cal (Performance Verification) is one thing, adjustment is another and when they don't have the script to auto adjust from their Fluke calibrators, manual adjustment seems just not worth the trouble.   :horse:

Good ones are hard to find.....
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Offline Martin72

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Re: New Siglent SDM4000A series Multimeter
« Reply #159 on: May 16, 2025, 08:44:02 pm »
Quote
Good ones are hard to find.....

That's true, but I have other options due to my job. ;)

Offline electr_peter

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Re: New Siglent SDM4000A series Multimeter
« Reply #160 on: May 26, 2025, 02:53:42 pm »
The manual states HISense/LOSense input protection limitations as:
Quote
2. Sampling (HISense and LOSense) terminal
HISense and LOSense are used for 4-wire Resistance measurement. Two protection limitations are defined:
  • HISense-LOSense protection limitation: 200 Vpk.
  • LOSense-LOSense protection limitation: 2 Vpk.

Shouldn't last line be referencing LO terminal? i.e.,

Quote
  • LOSense-LO protection limitation: 2 Vpk.
 

Online Kleinstein

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Re: New Siglent SDM4000A series Multimeter
« Reply #161 on: May 26, 2025, 03:25:07 pm »
The senseLo limit still makes little sense. Of cause it should be relative to the normal Lo terminal and not itself. In addition it should be well more than 2 V as protection limit. 2 V would be more a sensible number for the limit for the meter to still get correct readings - could still be less. Chances are Sense Lo would have a similar 200 V protection limit. From the PCB pictures I would even expect a higher limit before damage is done. The more critical one could be the high side terminal in ohms mode, that may not withstand ESD or similar spikes that well.
 

Offline Kean

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Re: New Siglent SDM4000A series Multimeter
« Reply #162 on: May 26, 2025, 03:37:24 pm »
Shouldn't last line be referencing LO terminal? i.e.,

This came up in regards to the SDM3000X series, and was reported to Siglent who acknowledged it was an error.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sdm30xx-input-terminal-protection-limitation/

In the SDM3065X User Manual edition UM06036-E01B from May 2017 it stated:
Quote
2. Sampling (HIsense and LOsense) terminal
HIsense and LOsense are used for 4-wire Resistance measurement. Two protection limitations are defined:
- HIsense-LOsense protection limitation: 2000Vpk.
- LOsense-LOsense protection limitation: 2Vpk.

In the SDM3065X User Manual edition UM06036-E02B from Feb 2022 it now states:
Quote
2. Sampling (HI Sense and LO Sense) terminal
HI Sense and LO Sense are used for 4-wire Resistance measurement. Two protection limitations are defined:
- HI Sense-LO Sense protection limitation: 200Vpk.
- LO Sense-LO protection limitation: 200Vpk.

So apparently this correction was missed when they created the SDM4065A User Manual (as of edition EN01A it is same as UM06036-E01B):
Quote
2. Sampling (HISense and LOSense) terminal
HISense and LOSense are used for 4-wire Resistance measurement. Two protection limitations are defined:
- HISense-LOSense protection limitation: 200 Vpk.
- LOSense-LOSense protection limitation: 2 Vpk.
 
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Offline electr_peter

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Re: New Siglent SDM4000A series Multimeter
« Reply #163 on: May 26, 2025, 03:48:14 pm »
LOSense-LO 200Vpk looks better. There are also some spelling mistakes in the manual, somebody should go check that.

Looking through the manual I don't see any reference to using both sense and force terminals to measure two voltages and show ratio V1/V2 on the screen (like in some HP/Agilent/KS DMMs).
« Last Edit: May 26, 2025, 03:50:30 pm by electr_peter »
 

Online Kleinstein

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Re: New Siglent SDM4000A series Multimeter
« Reply #164 on: May 26, 2025, 05:49:53 pm »
The SDM3000 /4000 come with a somewhat odd front end to get a 20 V with only a +-15 V supply for the analog part. This requires having the COM terminal not at ground, but moving it with the input. With this configuration it is not easy to use the sense input as independent inputs. It would at least come with some limitations (e.g. reduce the ranges to half) and extra effort (switch to a mode where COM is ground). In this case it makes sense to not offer the ratio function.

In contrast with the HP/KS and Keithley meters COM is equal to circuit ground and there is relatively little extra effort (mainly software) to use the sense inputs also for a 2nd voltage.
 
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Offline electr_peter

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Re: New Siglent SDM4000A series Multimeter
« Reply #165 on: May 27, 2025, 03:04:06 pm »
Some spelling errors in manual that needs fixing
Binning Munual (on DMM display, p122)
Menu > Help > Teach support :-DD (in manual, p29, p126)
 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: New Siglent SDM4000A series Multimeter
« Reply #166 on: May 29, 2025, 06:58:15 pm »
LOSense-LO 200Vpk looks better.

I'm not sure this correction is, well...correct!  I don't have this meter, but on similar meters you'll see that the LO-sense and LO (force) actually have low impedance between them, not a direct connection but not anywhere near isolated.  This is a factor that limits the test lead resistance in 4W mode--it can't be very large or the LO-sense-to-LO current will become a factor.  Thus in these meters the LO-sense-to-LO (force) voltage really is limited to something very small because the current would become excessive at higher voltages.  IDK if this applies to the specific DMM we're discussing here, but if someone could measure between those two terminals using a DMM with a fairly high compliance voltage then maybe we'd know.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: New Siglent SDM4000A series Multimeter
« Reply #167 on: May 29, 2025, 07:12:56 pm »
The SDM3000 /4000 come with a somewhat odd front end to get a 20 V with only a +-15 V supply for the analog part. This requires having the COM terminal not at ground, but moving it with the input. With this configuration it is not easy to use the sense input as independent inputs. It would at least come with some limitations (e.g. reduce the ranges to half) and extra effort (switch to a mode where COM is ground). In this case it makes sense to not offer the ratio function.

I'm not clear on the construction of the input as you describe it, I would have thought they would just float the supplies of the input buffer and that doesn't really float the COM terminal, does it?  In any case, the input limitation markings on the front of these meters are almost identical to what is on the front of an HP34401A and IIRC we're all pretty sure that once upon a time Siglent took a very close look at the 34401A!  The 34401A has low impedance between the two LO terminals and in the ratio mode, those two terminals have to be shorted.  Presuming that the SDM3000/4000 also have low impedance there--as implied by the markings--then I'm not sure why ratio would be difficult as it would only involve switching the input buffer between the two HI inputs.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2025, 07:17:26 pm by bdunham7 »
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Online Kleinstein

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Re: New Siglent SDM4000A series Multimeter
« Reply #168 on: May 29, 2025, 08:12:13 pm »
The protecion levels are kind of industry standard. The SDM3065,4065 , HP34401 and most other 6 digit meters have protection via resistance of some 100 K to limit the current. For enough voltage rating the resistors are usually chains of equal values. The specs for the normal voltage input sometimes looks a bit optimistic, with relays that have limited voltage specs. Some meters seem to turn off a relay to prevent over heating the resistors. However his is more like a longer time thing.
For this reason KS has some supension on the specs and use for high voltage.
On the other side with the Sigilent meters the protection for the sense input often looks nearly as good as the main input. So chances are the 200 V specs there would have some reserve. The problem in the ohms more is more the current source that is usually through the main input - this may well not like a full 1000 V.

The question of a ratio measurement is a different thing. They are just reusing the sense terminals. With the 34401 the sense terminals are from the HW side not that different from the normal input. The HP meter use AZ switching at the input and get a kind of differential reading this way. The normal voltage is input and COM=GND or for 4 wire ohms sense H and sense L as the 2 readings in the AZ loop.
Sense low has no pre-charge and thus more switching spike, but would still be an input used for the low side and assumed to be low enough in impedance externally to absorb the current spike. One still wants a way to define the relative voltage between the main input and the 2nd voltage to measure. The direct link from Sense L to COM would be the obvious solution, but there could also be some voltage difference.

With the limited supply in the sigilent meters the COM terminal can not be directly linked to the supply ground. It is very likely driven to the opposite if the main input,as this is the way to get a 20 V high impedance input and at the same time a differential signal to drive the differential ADC.
This limits the available input range between COM and the sense terminals. As an example, if there are 20 V between the normal input and COM, the COM would be at some -10 V relative to the supply and thus little headroom (maybe some 3 V) for a negative voltage between COM and a sense input.
The system with moving the COM signal relative to the supply ground is an elegant way to get a larger range and differential signal, but it is not compatible with easy electronic switching between more inputs. So it would be quite some effort to add an ratio mode to the SDM3065, while it is easy (no extra HW needed) for the 34401.
 
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Offline bdunham7

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Re: New Siglent SDM4000A series Multimeter
« Reply #169 on: May 30, 2025, 06:09:25 am »
I don't have either Siglent meter to look at nor a schematic (does anyone?) but I'd still like to know if I'm correct about the LO-sense having low impedance to the LO (force) terminal.

As for the floating or bootstrapped voltage supplies for the 20V-range input buffer, are you saying that there is only one +/-15V voltage supply for the entire in-guard input circuitry?  Other similar systems that I have schematics or information for use a separate bootstrapped supply for the 20V input buffer and then immediately divide it by 10 and send it to the 2V (or so) ADC.  There typically is no "common" for this bootstrapped supply, but if you take the average of the two to be your common, then that will indeed be offset from the LO input by approximately the input voltage.  But in the examples I'm aware of, this has no implications for the relationship between the COM/LO (force) and any other part of the system. 

The 34401A requires an external short between the two LO terminals to take an accurate ratio reading.  Shorting those terminals in 4W ohms mode gives you a sort of 3W setup that still takes fairly accurate resistance readings.  What happens if you short the two LO terminals on the Siglents and take either voltage or resistance readings?  I'm guessing you can read +/-20 V just fine this way.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Online Kleinstein

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Re: New Siglent SDM4000A series Multimeter
« Reply #170 on: May 30, 2025, 07:09:54 am »
AFAIK there are no open schematics for the SDM3065 around. I also don't have such a meter, just looked at photos. These show clearly just a single +-15 V  regulated supply for the input section and the unregulated voltage should also have not much headroom as the heat sinks a quite small.
As far as one can see the input is kind of differential. I could not see all the details, but it looks like some buffer (may also work as amplifier) than 2 dividers and buffers at the ADC inputs. So this really fits the idea of driving the low side (COM terminal). Signal switching is with CMOS MUX chips (ADG1208/1209) and these would not have enough supply range to alow a full +-24 V relative to ground.

A configuration with driving the low side is a bit unconventional, but it makes absolute sense for a ADC chip with differential inputs. It may be a bit mind twisting, but the circuit itself is not to complicated and having a 20 (24) V range is nice. I have a somewhat similar configuration for my DIY DMM, though with a single ended ADC. So I know the limitations that come with this configurations.

There should be no low impedance link from sense Lo to COM in the meter. There should be at least the chain of resistors (some 100 K) from the protection. Some meters have a clamp for only a relative low voltage (like 2 diodes)  for sense low, but this could also be higher.
It should be fine to connect the sense low terminals or a sense terminal to COM and still do the full voltage reading. One could however run into issues if one applies a voltage (like 5 V) relative to COM - one would than expect a current ( 10s of µA) at the sense inputs with some input voltages at the main input. Also the 34401 has not low impedance link. It just wants a reasonable low impedance (like < 10 K) external link, so that the switching spike can be absorbed.
 

Offline Furna

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Re: New Siglent SDM4000A series Multimeter
« Reply #171 on: May 30, 2025, 04:14:16 pm »
... and I finally received my 4065A ...

2580574-0

@Martin72 just to not reinvent the wheel: I guess for TestController you just copied&pasted the SDM3065 + IDN string modification. Am I right?
Did anyone already submitted the modification to HKJ?

Thank you
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: New Siglent SDM4000A series Multimeter
« Reply #172 on: May 30, 2025, 04:46:31 pm »
... and I finally received my 4065A ...

(Attachment Link)

@Martin72 just to not reinvent the wheel: I guess for TestController you just copied&pasted the SDM3065 + IDN string modification. Am I right?
Did anyone already submitted the modification to HKJ?

It wasn't exactly that simple, I made the definition. I'll share it here, and if it works, then I'll share in the TC thread. Needs more testing before that, and I don't have one of these (yet?).

Do you have the regular version, or the -SC?

Thanks,
Josh
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Offline Furna

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Re: New Siglent SDM4000A series Multimeter
« Reply #173 on: May 30, 2025, 04:48:51 pm »
... and I finally received my 4065A ...

(Attachment Link)

@Martin72 just to not reinvent the wheel: I guess for TestController you just copied&pasted the SDM3065 + IDN string modification. Am I right?
Did anyone already submitted the modification to HKJ?

It wasn't exactly that simple, I made the definition. I'll share it here, and if it works, then I'll share in the TC thread. Needs more testing before that, and I don't have one of these (yet?).

Do you have the regular version, or the -SC?

Thanks,
Josh

Thanks to you indeed Josh.
I have the regular version.
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: New Siglent SDM4000A series Multimeter
« Reply #174 on: May 30, 2025, 05:05:38 pm »
Thanks to you indeed Josh.
I have the regular version.

Try the attached and let me know how it goes. I made 3 different versions. ;)

Thanks,
Josh
"Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it." - Steven Wright
Best Continuity Tester Ever
 
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