What's your main operating system? (Poll)

[george graves]

This thread is now pointless.

[Sigmoid]

that is why i claim that linux is not 'ready'. choice is good. too much choice is problematic. i get pissed off if at a sandwich place they guy in front of me stalls the line for 15 minutes cause he can't decide out of the 300 different sandwiches. It's all bread with meat and veggies dammit. we're hungry. want food . now. i don't need to hear  that a spoon is not compatible with my soupbowl.

It's not Linux that's "not ready", it's the half-arsed Linux versions of the software in question. If you come across a piece of software that fails to install under non-RH systems, you probably don't want to use the Linux version of that software to begin with. (In 90% of all cases, it'll be a catastrophe.)

There are dozens of ways you can reliably release proprietary software for Linux. There are many companies that do it right (Steam for Linux is pretty much a breeze for instance). Most companies provide a tarball download, and shell script installers or manual installation instructions.

Also, oftentimes, it's just a matter of a little work to get a RH package installed and running in a random distro of your choice. So things are by far not as bad as you are stating.

Ok... didn't want to get involved in this discussion and I sure hoped it won't degenerate into an OS fight, but here's the thing:
{insert usenet-level OS fight assholery}

Congratulations.

[free_electron]

There are a lot of dual-boot systems.

? i don't have any. Where i used to work there were none.. where i work now there are none. in fact of all the people i know (in context of work) none of em has dual boot. i wonder why ?

and yes, they had huge linux farms but people would connect through exceed or similar software running on win.
the farms were VERY tightly controlled running very specific installs that did not get patches installed or any other fidgeting-around-with until a project was done and out the door.
The deployed versions were often several years old. Only when the software rolled a revision and they got the go from the software maker did they patch the installs. actually the software install typically came prepackaged with the os it was supposed to run on. deploy and run. hands off the os install.

linux can and does work but it needs careful monitoring. there is simply too much stuff in the wild that is not sufficiently tested.

[c4757p]

...because you work primarily with Windows-only software?

[Sigmoid]

There are a lot of dual-boot systems.

? i don't have any. Where i used to work there were none.. where i work now there are none. in fact of all the people i know (in context of work) none of em has dual boot. i wonder why ?

I haven't seen a dual boot system since around the time computers became powerful enough to run virtual machines without a noticeable performance hit on everyday jobs. I sure haven't had one since 2000.

[jadew]

Ok... didn't want to get involved in this discussion and I sure hoped it won't degenerate into an OS fight, but here's the thing:
{insert usenet-level OS fight assholery}

Congratulations.

@Sigmoid

I didn't know that pointing out the flaws in something makes you an asshole. I guess it's perfectly fine to bash Windows and its users tho. Also, I can't help but notice that you're the second person that actually acts like an asshole towards me, but fails to bring any kind of contra-arguments.

Please stop getting butthurt over criticism brought to the things you like, it's childish.

[c4757p]

I haven't seen a dual boot system since around the time computers became powerful enough to run virtual machines without a noticeable performance hit

Good point. I'd amend my initial suggestion by including virtual machines as well as dual-boot systems.

[apelly]

This thread stayed pretty civilised for a long time. It's still not too bad, even occasionally insightful, considering the topic.

I use linux. I don't care what you use, or why.

For what it's worth, my major gripes:
1) nvidia
2) gnome 3

Minor gripes:
I miss outlook and advanced excel.
Apart from outlook's insane top-posting, it did feel snappier than thunderbird.
I miss excel less and less, especially after the (old rant) introduction of the ludicrous, mandatory, office ribbon.

It is my choice to have these gripes.

[free_electron]

...because you work primarily with Windows-only software?

i'd love to jump on the free bandwagon ( free as in zero-paid , i don't care about 'open', 'source code' , ' share' etc. i got work to be done , use screwdrivers, not make em you know. no interest in learning how to make screwdrivers either ). free is good.
but, i have not found 'worthy' alternatives for the stuff i frequently use to make the full switch to linux.

i have tried. i still do once in a while. i play with things like inkscape (its not quite the same as illustrator yet ... 50% at most). i love notepad++
There is good 'free' software , but the one that is out there tends to exist both for win and linux. In short the linux world has NOTHING ( for me) that requires me to have a permanent install. if it were a 50/50 (like 50% of the stuff i use exists on linux unaltered ( not a copycat , but the real deal )) i might switch. right now it's 0/100 %

openoffice is 'not quite' microsoft office. like it or not. if i send a native openoffice document somewhere it will come back. 'can't open that.'
inkscape is not quite illustrator
gimp is not quite photoshop. ( there is thousands of 3d party plugins for photoshop )
aperture is not quite lightroom ( in fact i'm pissed at apple they pulled the plug on aperture . i paid for that ! , fortunately i discovered lightroom )
altium ? no contest
Various toolchains like Keil / IAR ? (i'm playing with a few processors form infineon and TI right now and the delivered toolchains / programming software is win only...
Quartus/Modelsim.  ?  from the official quartus install:  RHEL5 or RHEL6 anything else ? sorry we don't guarantee it'll work or even install. you can fidget with it but if goes wonky don't come crying ...

well bugger that !

like i said : i have not encountered anything i need (professionally) that exists on linux only ( apart form when i messed around with silicon. those are *nix tools only because of the legacy coming from Sun. but even there the user environments run on a windows box. due to the other software people need like outlook , word, excel, powerpoint , and other stuff.

again : my world , not someone else's.  but when i look around in my world i don't know of anyone that uses a dualboot system. if they do have a need for both linux and win it is either a dedicated machine or they run it in a vm. rebooting to swap programs is just too annoying.

[free_electron]

Heh.  View from afar:   "The majority of the people run Windows.   The rest (a vocal minority) are have arguments about which flavors of unix suck less."  :-)

where's the 'like' button if you need one

reminds me of unix vs windows airlines.. windows airlines gets you there most of the time , on time. once in a while there is a hiccup and you end up late, in the wrong spot or very rarely dead. ( flying is very safe)

unix airlines : the pilots crew and mechanics walk onto the runway carrying various bits and pieces of metal and hammers . vigorously arguing what plane they will build , what colour it should be and how many seats it must have. meanwhile the passengers are mulling around aimlessly in the terminal wondering when they will take off .. .

[nctnico]

Most of the time, for me, all it takes is to hit the update button and I end up with a system I can't use.

The same goes for Windows. I don't update my Windows machines because experience has thaught me that an update is very likely to break a system.

[c4757p]

It's a shame that Notepad++ is Windows-only, it is a good editor. That said, there are a lot of cross-platform editors.

OpenOffice/LibreOffice suck. I run MS Office via Crossover - works nicely, for those times when I absolutely must use it (can't stand MS Office either).

Don't do graphics stuff, so can't comment on Inkscape/Illustrator. If you do a lot of that, then I'd guess that yeah, Linux ain't for you. There's not much in the way of creative software. I don't touch that shit anyway, though

MCU toolchains are often Windows-only, but a few have quite competent cross-platform toolchains; for this reason I tend to stick to AVR and ARM. (And I don't really ever have much reason to use anything else, between the two of them the cover just about anything.) But again, yeah, most purpose-built engineering toolkits are Windows-only, so if you insist on using some obscure chip you're stuck.

Quartus, again, works perfectly. So what if they don't guarantee it? ISE does as well.

In the end - yeah, unfortunately, a lot of engineering toolkits only run on Windows. I still vastly prefer Linux, mostly due to the configurability - I like to tinker. I spend a lot of time on my computer, I want it to bend to my work patterns, not the other way around! And I want to be able to import all this customization to another system very easily (I can just download and unpack the config files from my $HOME). I've tried to get all my various customizations (tiling window manager, lots of keyboard remaps, a sophisticated command shell - zsh - configured just right, access to all the system internals via said command shell, smooth and seamless interaction with multiple systems via SSH including GUI tunneling, etc) running on Windows and while I could get most of them to have some semblance of working, it was hardly a "just works" setup.

But then, that's just me. Some people like doing things the Windows way. Personally I'd rather gouge out my eyes with a deflated balloon...

[hans]

I ran Linux full on my daily driver in 2006, but got sick of dual booting for games. I dumped it for Vista, and although horrendous I put up with and on 7 it's sorta okay.

I still have a dual boot system because I run Linux Mint on it. Some software development runs so much nicer on Linux.  But I use Win7 now daily..

I would love to run Linux as my daily driver again, but primarily some alternatives (like Altium or an IDE that matches Visual Studio + ReSharper) and games are holding me back.

I did compile a list of programs I frequently use and alternatives, and was surprised to find many games on Steam now run on Linux.. but it's not there yet. I still need to see my racing simulators to go, but I'm afraid that's not happening anytime soon (probably because the simulator market is too much of a niche to spend time on multi-OS support, whereas they are too great fun for me to give up entirely). Yes I did look up all programs on natively and Wine support, but no dice.
So.. last christmas I got myself a PS4 instead and we'll see if I can suffice my gaming needs on that machine.

Unfortunately the biggest pain (IMHO) is graphics card drivers on Linux. AMD sounds like the holy grail for most because their open source support is better than NVIDIA, but in general the quality control of AMD drivers sucks. Most precisely, Windows drivers tend to be very buggy and years behind NVIDIA, and I experienced that the Linux drivers are even worse. (I run a HD 7850 card)
I have an old laptop (6 years) with Xubuntu on it, and a Nvidia 9200M GS card. It runs sorta OK; but the machine is too slow to function as a development machine for today (Even with a relatively light WM etc.).

[tiltit]

Just to add my little contribution , I use Ubuntu Linux as my main system along with the Cinnamon desktop. I also have Windows 7 partition to play some games, but I only use it about once a month if not less. I feels like every time I start windows I enter update hell. I also use a Macbook Air as a portable device. It's nice and lite, and runs all tools and software I use on Linux.
For me the main reason I use open source tools is the feeling that when I create something with them I truly own what I've done. To take the screwdriver analogy, It's like owning it, opposed the renting a screwdriver from a company that may tomorrow go out off business.
Ill admit that it's probably a different situation if you are a company that works just for money and doesn't care as long as it works, but for the hobbyist, open source and Linux is a wonderful thing.

On the other hand I use Sublime Text editor and that is not open source.

[aroby]

The CLI way has a steep learning curve, but the payoff is dramatically higher productivity.  It's an option that you can take advantage of if you want, but you're not forced into it.  Windows doesn't even have the option, and that's the problem.

Err, yes it does.  It's called Powershell.  Similarly steep learning curve.  And many Microsoft server products use this extensively - for example, you can only do basic stuff through the Exchange GUI tools - everything else is in Powershell.  Same with Hyper-V.

Anthony

[jadew]

@c4757p
As an alternative to notepad++ you can try geany. It's based on the same editor control (scintilla), so it feels pretty much the same.

[jadew]

The CLI way has a steep learning curve, but the payoff is dramatically higher productivity.  It's an option that you can take advantage of if you want, but you're not forced into it.  Windows doesn't even have the option, and that's the problem.

Err, yes it does.  It's called Powershell.  Similarly steep learning curve.  And many Microsoft server products use this extensively - for example, you can only do basic stuff through the Exchange GUI tools - everything else is in Powershell.  Same with Hyper-V.

Anthony

And let's not forget to mention that powershell kicks ass.

[c4757p]

@c4757p
As an alternative to notepad++ you can try geany. It's based on the same editor control (scintilla), so it feels pretty much the same.

Ah, I forgot that it is, I'll keep that in mind. I don't use notepad++ personally, I use vim almost exclusively, but a lot of people like notepad++ so it'd be helpful to keep around as a recommendation. I have used it and it's rather nice.

[miguelvp]

The CLI way has a steep learning curve, but the payoff is dramatically higher productivity.  It's an option that you can take advantage of if you want, but you're not forced into it.  Windows doesn't even have the option, and that's the problem.

Err, yes it does.  It's called Powershell.  Similarly steep learning curve.  And many Microsoft server products use this extensively - for example, you can only do basic stuff through the Exchange GUI tools - everything else is in Powershell.  Same with Hyper-V.

Anthony

And let's not forget to mention that powershell kicks ass.

It sure does, Long training course from MS for those who want to learn it:

http://www.microsoftvirtualacademy.com/training-courses/getting-started-with-powershell-3-0-jump-start

[free_electron]

It's a shame that Notepad++ is Windows-only, it is a good editor. That said, there are a lot of cross-platform editors.

OpenOffice/LibreOffice suck. I run MS Office via Crossover - works nicely, for those times when I absolutely must use it (can't stand MS Office either).

Don't do graphics stuff, so can't comment on Inkscape/Illustrator. If you do a lot of that, then I'd guess that yeah, Linux ain't for you. There's not much in the way of creative software. I don't touch that shit anyway, though

MCU toolchains are often Windows-only, but a few have quite competent cross-platform toolchains; for this reason I tend to stick to AVR and ARM. (And I don't really ever have much reason to use anything else, between the two of them the cover just about anything.) But again, yeah, most purpose-built engineering toolkits are Windows-only, so if you insist on using some obscure chip you're stuck.

Quartus, again, works perfectly. So what if they don't guarantee it? ISE does as well.

In the end - yeah, unfortunately, a lot of engineering toolkits only run on Windows. I still vastly prefer Linux, mostly due to the configurability - I like to tinker. I spend a lot of time on my computer, I want it to bend to my work patterns, not the other way around! And I want to be able to import all this customization to another system very easily (I can just download and unpack the config files from my $HOME). I've tried to get all my various customizations (tiling window manager, lots of keyboard remaps, a sophisticated command shell - zsh - configured just right, access to all the system internals via said command shell, smooth and seamless interaction with multiple systems via SSH including GUI tunneling, etc) running on Windows and while I could get most of them to have some semblance of working, it was hardly a "just works" setup.

But then, that's just me. Some people like doing things the Windows way. Personally I'd rather gouge out my eyes with a deflated balloon...

i can see how, if your job is writing code that linux gives you a much larger ecosystem and playground. linux is by coders for coders.

as soon as you leave the 'text' world and start doing graphical / visual things ( CAD ) or hardware things , it deteriorates very quickly.

my code writing is 5% of what i do. the rest is all graphical stuff ( whether photo editing, drawing documentation, schematics, pcb ).
i don't give a rats ass about the os i run on. i want my three 30 inch monitors , my spacenavigator and have my nose in altium, rhino , solidworks, catia without fuss. if i need to send a letter or spreadsheet i need it in a format that the most people can read. i hate powerpoint for example. i do not understand how people can make diagrams in powerpoint. that tool is horrid. but, that's what people can read.
so word/excel/powerpoint are default standards. historical.

as for manufacturer toolchains : i do not want to get locked in to one chip or one chip family because their tools are not compatible with my Os.
if i need an industrial temp range chip that is certified to SAE i can hardly tell my customer : i can't do the work because they don't have a toolchain for linux and i refuse to run windows. i'd be out in the street with an accordeon and a trained monkey as opposed as to in my lab and comfy office with fireplace. i am working on a design right now that will use an infineon xc1300 series cpu. why ? because it has exactly the right mix of peripherals and is automotive grade ( no, this is not daytime job related ).  this app is a smart sensor that needs to be rugged.
the only devtools for that thing come from infineon themselves. windows only.

and it is the same with most devtools. you can do any chip manufacturer. atmel, microchip,ti,infineaon, st , it's all a windows only show.

ANother funky thing i am working with is a chip from Silego ( programmable analog chip ). same for theose cypress psoc's... windows only.

so linux has zero appeal to me. it has nothing i need , and would only restrict my options.
again ,were i a programmer that may be different. i am not. i do hardware.

[Sigmoid]

Ok... didn't want to get involved in this discussion and I sure hoped it won't degenerate into an OS fight, but here's the thing:
{insert usenet-level OS fight assholery}

Congratulations.

@Sigmoid

I didn't know that pointing out the flaws in something makes you an asshole. I guess it's perfectly fine to bash Windows and its users tho. Also, I can't help but notice that you're the second person that actually acts like an asshole towards me, but fails to bring any kind of contra-arguments.

Please stop getting butthurt over criticism brought to the things you like, it's childish.

OMG, you were the one who started with the ad hominem, and now you're actually feeling insulted because people called you out for it.

Come on, re-read that post, just once!

Really now, are you expecting me to bring a counterargument against how "Linux users just use Linux because it's free, most of them couldn't give a shit about open source" or somesuch?!

[jadew]

OMG, you were the one who started with the ad hominem, and now you're actually feeling insulted because people called you out for it.

Please quote me.

Edit: And yes, I expect you to at least voice an opinion that makes sense and contradicts mine if you don't agree with it. Or are you afraid that it will sound too much like bullshit if you start talking about how users chose it because opensource is awesome and they care about freedom and crap like that?

[mamalala]

Edit: And yes, I expect you to at least voice an opinion that makes sense and contradicts mine if you don't agree with it. Or are you afraid that it will sound too much like bullshit if you start talking about how users chose it because opensource is awesome and they care about freedom and crap like that?

You clearly have no clue what the concept of open-source, and the freedoms that come with it, is about.

Greetings,

Chris

[jadew]

Edit: And yes, I expect you to at least voice an opinion that makes sense and contradicts mine if you don't agree with it. Or are you afraid that it will sound too much like bullshit if you start talking about how users chose it because opensource is awesome and they care about freedom and crap like that?

You clearly have no clue what the concept of open-source, and the freedoms that come with it, is about.

Greetings,

Chris

The concept of opensource and its licenses as found in linux, have nothing to do with freedom and they don't benefit the end user in any way. In fact, they're meant to take away freedoms from developers.

The whole point of GPL was to make sure that everything available was free and opensource, so anything you write, that uses in any way or form a piece of GPL code - be it a snippet from the net or linking against a library, turns your entire project into free and opensource code. Turned out that everything free and opensource kinda sucked, because the programmers that could actually produce quality stuff, didn't really have time to code for free or didn't want their code to be forked. Because of that they introduced the LGPL, which is a bit more permissive, in the sense that with it you can dynamically link against LGPL libraries and can still keep your code closed source.

Needless to say the LGPL didn't have much success until recently and there are still tons of GPL traps in the linux environment.

None of this benefits or affects the end user in any way, in fact it helps keeping companies and programmers that can bring value to the OS, at bay.


Did I miss anything from the concept of opensource and the freedoms it offers?

[nctnico]

I don't think people use Linux because of freedom or whatever. I think people use Linux because it works better for a lot of things.

For example: Every now and them I develop Windows software. I do that on Linux because for some reason it takes the exact same source minutes to compile on Windows versus seconds on Linux. Yes, I tried several Windows machines and versions (including a freshly installed Windows in a VM on the Linux machine)  to rule out the 'problem' is in a particular Windows machine.