Rigol MHO900 Test/Review (MHO954/984)

[Sorama]

So you didn’t report the fact that there was a hack to circumvent the Siglent licenses…
But you find it normal when it happens to a competitor…

Btw, the same goes for Rigol;  they also could have changed whatever in the MHO900 series to make it harder to decode or crack, just as you said Siglent could.

Well, apparently Rigol chose not to either.

If it was not TV84, your surely reported the exact individual to Siglent for breaking their licenses, right ?
(Of course you did not, you just want it to happen to a competitor)

[Fungus]

Btw, the same goes for Rigol;  they also could have changed whatever in the MHO900 series to make it harder to decode or crack, just as you said Siglent could.

Well, apparently Rigol chose not to either.

Rigol is totally aware of the hacking. I've spoken to people at Rigol who said so (they're probably reading this now - they read EEVBLOG, too).

They could turn off ADB access at any time if they wanted to.

[Martin72]

@Sorama
That was just a general question with no particular reference, so you can calm down again.

[Sorama]

@Sorama
That was just a general question with no particular reference, so you can calm down again.

A question you knew the answer already.
You said you referenced the hack on eevblog forum.

Did you ask Siglent if you got still support after you hacked your/their SA?

[tautech]

So you didn’t report the fact that there was a hack to circumvent the Siglent licenses…
But you find it normal when it happens to a competitor…

Btw, the same goes for Rigol;  they also could have changed whatever in the MHO900 series to make it harder to decode or crack, just as you said Siglent could.

Well, apparently Rigol chose not to either.

If it was not TV84, your surely reported the exact individual to Siglent for breaking their licenses, right ?
(Of course you did not, you just want it to happen to a competitor)

Have you ever considered marketing strategies and the importance of capturing customers for them to become brand followers and their possible future spend ?
Maybe you should give this some thought....

OTOH these sorts of things mean little to me as I can offer some of the best brand support available and have customers return time after time.......not all hack or are even interested in doing so these days as you can get so so so much for your spend.
The EE is very spoilt for the choices available these days.....

[Sorama]

So you didn’t report the fact that there was a hack to circumvent the Siglent licenses…
But you find it normal when it happens to a competitor…

Btw, the same goes for Rigol;  they also could have changed whatever in the MHO900 series to make it harder to decode or crack, just as you said Siglent could.

Well, apparently Rigol chose not to either.

If it was not TV84, your surely reported the exact individual to Siglent for breaking their licenses, right ?
(Of course you did not, you just want it to happen to a competitor)

Have you ever considered marketing strategies and the importance of capturing customers for them to become brand followers and their possible future spend ?
Maybe you should give this some thought....

OTOH these sorts of things mean little to me as I can offer some of the best brand support available and have customers return time after time.......not all hack or are even interested in doing so these days as you can get so so so much for your spend.
The EE is very spoilt for the choices available these days.....

Just like the banned Norbert who will convince potential customers to buy Rigol as his hack (just like the Siglent hack) will attract those people.

There is no difference in what Norbert did and what the people here on eevblog did wrt the license script.

Yes Norbert asks money for it, because he also offers other features, speed and bug fixing.
He would be crazy not to.

[tautech]

So you didn’t report the fact that there was a hack to circumvent the Siglent licenses…
But you find it normal when it happens to a competitor…

Btw, the same goes for Rigol;  they also could have changed whatever in the MHO900 series to make it harder to decode or crack, just as you said Siglent could.

Well, apparently Rigol chose not to either.

If it was not TV84, your surely reported the exact individual to Siglent for breaking their licenses, right ?
(Of course you did not, you just want it to happen to a competitor)

Have you ever considered marketing strategies and the importance of capturing customers for them to become brand followers and their possible future spend ?
Maybe you should give this some thought....

OTOH these sorts of things mean little to me as I can offer some of the best brand support available and have customers return time after time.......not all hack or are even interested in doing so these days as you can get so so so much for your spend.
The EE is very spoilt for the choices available these days.....

Just like the banned Norbert who will convince potential customers to buy Rigol as his hack (just like the Siglent hack) will attract those people.

There is no difference in what Norbert did and what the people here on eevblog did wrt the license script.

Yes Norbert asks money for it, because he also offers other features, speed and bug fixing.
He would be crazy not to.

Other brands actually fix instrument shortcomings with firmware updates for zero additional cost. 

[gf]

That was a good idea, because the measured values deviate early on.
At 50µs/s, the frequency and voltage are already incorrect, and at 10ms/div they are clearly wrong.
(Previous measurements with 1 MHz:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mho900-testreview-(mho984)/msg6103897/#msg6103897 )

This is a good test for anyone with a modern DSO, even if just to get some experience with what AC RMS, STD, and Cycle RMS means. One can see on the display that if fractional parts of the waveform are displayed, then the RMS calculations can be affected, and when many cycles of the waveform are captured then the fractional part has less effect.

Theoretically, that should be the case. Unfortunately, the screenshots show the opposite: More cycles in the window -> larger error

IMO, the screenshots are also inconsistent with the idea that only 1,000 decimated screen samples would be used for the measurements. If that were the case, how could it measure a frequency of 1.0 MHz (1 µs period) at 5 ms/div where the decimated screen sampling period is as large as 50 µs (20 kSa/s sample rate)? At this sample rate, 971 kHz would alias to 9 kHz, and that is the frequency/period that would be measured from the decimated screen samples (at best).

[Sorama]

So you didn’t report the fact that there was a hack to circumvent the Siglent licenses…
But you find it normal when it happens to a competitor…

Btw, the same goes for Rigol;  they also could have changed whatever in the MHO900 series to make it harder to decode or crack, just as you said Siglent could.

Well, apparently Rigol chose not to either.

If it was not TV84, your surely reported the exact individual to Siglent for breaking their licenses, right ?
(Of course you did not, you just want it to happen to a competitor)

Have you ever considered marketing strategies and the importance of capturing customers for them to become brand followers and their possible future spend ?
Maybe you should give this some thought....

OTOH these sorts of things mean little to me as I can offer some of the best brand support available and have customers return time after time.......not all hack or are even interested in doing so these days as you can get so so so much for your spend.
The EE is very spoilt for the choices available these days.....

Just like the banned Norbert who will convince potential customers to buy Rigol as his hack (just like the Siglent hack) will attract those people.

There is no difference in what Norbert did and what the people here on eevblog did wrt the license script.

Yes Norbert asks money for it, because he also offers other features, speed and bug fixing.
He would be crazy not to.

Other brands actually fix instrument shortcomings with firmware updates for zero additional cost. 

And Rigol doesn’t.
So Norbert did and while he did not get money from selling scopes, he’s asking a leaf of bread for his weeks of work.

We better be grateful that he is even willing to do so.

[tautech]

So you didn’t report the fact that there was a hack to circumvent the Siglent licenses…
But you find it normal when it happens to a competitor…

Btw, the same goes for Rigol;  they also could have changed whatever in the MHO900 series to make it harder to decode or crack, just as you said Siglent could.

Well, apparently Rigol chose not to either.

If it was not TV84, your surely reported the exact individual to Siglent for breaking their licenses, right ?
(Of course you did not, you just want it to happen to a competitor)

Have you ever considered marketing strategies and the importance of capturing customers for them to become brand followers and their possible future spend ?
Maybe you should give this some thought....

OTOH these sorts of things mean little to me as I can offer some of the best brand support available and have customers return time after time.......not all hack or are even interested in doing so these days as you can get so so so much for your spend.
The EE is very spoilt for the choices available these days.....

Just like the banned Norbert who will convince potential customers to buy Rigol as his hack (just like the Siglent hack) will attract those people.

There is no difference in what Norbert did and what the people here on eevblog did wrt the license script.

Yes Norbert asks money for it, because he also offers other features, speed and bug fixing.
He would be crazy not to.

Other brands actually fix instrument shortcomings with firmware updates for zero additional cost. 

And Rigol doesn’t.
So Norbert did and while he did not get money from selling scopes, he’s asking a leaf of bread for his weeks of work.

We better be grateful that he is even willing to do so.

So the end result is a scope that costs more to operate correctly.

How much confidence does that give you in the brand ?

[NE666]

How much confidence does that give you in the brand ?

A valid point, and knowing what I know now, it would give me pause if I were planning to spend 'a lot', and twice so if that purchase were set within a commercial or research context.

But as a hobbyist with modest pretensions, you might be surprised. I may actually be more drawn to an ecosystem with an 'open' aspect to it (acknowledging that it's unofficial, unsupported and could evaporate tomorrow), where there's perhaps one or two individuals who are responding to fix and 'new feature' requests on the time scale of just a few days. And how many vendors allow Joe Hobbyist to speak directly with their product manager/developers?

I'd been considering letting my DHO1074 go but on the back of Norbert's work, I now shan't.

[Sorama]

We all know what to think about Rigols (lack of) support.
It is no different with R&S or Keysight (I thought) wrt non professionals.

And Norbert is asking just a few cents for making it right.

[TUMEMBER]

We all know what to think about Rigols (lack of) support.
It is no different with R&S or Keysight (I thought) wrt non professionals.

And Norbert is asking just a few cents for making it right.

And with that, let's end this side thread, because Martin will be offended again that you're messing up his thread and "diverting from the topic without contributing anything." Please.

[tautech]

How much confidence does that give you in the brand ?

A valid point, and knowing what I know now, it would give me pause if I were planning to spend 'a lot', and twice so if that purchase were set within a commercial or research context.

But as a hobbyist with modest pretensions, you might be surprised. I may actually be more drawn to an ecosystem with an 'open' aspect to it (acknowledging that it's unofficial, unsupported and could evaporate tomorrow), where there's perhaps one or two individuals who are responding to fix and 'new feature' requests on the time scale of just a few days. And how many vendors allow Joe Hobbyist to speak directly with their product manager/developers?

I'd been considering letting my DHO1074 go but on the back of Norbert's work, I now shan't.

They will listen to valuable feedback from dudes that really know a thing or two !
Not wishlist poo, things that are either wrong or should be fixed and things that experienced users expect.
Seen it and offered suggestions that have changed complete product ranges but what would I know as only a reseller ! 

Anyone can make an impact today with the product open source declarations now available and craft your own improvements/hacks for most products.
Eg:
https://int.siglent.com/u_file/download/24_06_03/SDS1000X%20HD&SDS3000X%20HD&SDS800X%20HD_Open%20Source%20Acknowledgment_EN01A.pdf

[mawyatt]

That was a good idea, because the measured values deviate early on.
At 50µs/s, the frequency and voltage are already incorrect, and at 10ms/div they are clearly wrong.
(Previous measurements with 1 MHz:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mho900-testreview-(mho984)/msg6103897/#msg6103897 )

This is a good test for anyone with a modern DSO, even if just to get some experience with what AC RMS, STD, and Cycle RMS means. One can see on the display that if fractional parts of the waveform are displayed, then the RMS calculations can be affected, and when many cycles of the waveform are captured then the fractional part has less effect.

Theoretically, that should be the case. Unfortunately, the screenshots show the opposite: More cycles in the window -> larger error

IMO, the screenshots are also inconsistent with the idea that only 1,000 decimated screen samples would be used for the measurements. If that were the case, how could it measure a frequency of 1.0 MHz (1 µs period) at 5 ms/div where the decimated screen sampling period is as large as 50 µs (20 kSa/s sample rate)? At this sample rate, 971 kHz would alias to 9 kHz, and that is the frequency/period that would be measured from the decimated screen samples (at best).

Not to get bogged down in this quagmire, maybe a new thread which can address the various behaviors of DSOs wrt to different types of waveforms. How these waveforms are represented, both displayed and numerically, could be useful information.

Best 

[ptluis]

Yes Norbert asks money for it, because he also offers other features, speed and bug fixing.
He would be crazy not to.

Show me video proof of those improvements, I only see talk and a few screenshots about it, but no real demonstration of those improvements. Also why there's no review from those who bought the mods?

[Fungus]

Theoretically, that should be the case. Unfortunately, the screenshots show the opposite: More cycles in the window -> larger error

"More cycles in the window" usually corresponds to a drop in sample rate.

Look at the sample rates in the images, they go down to 50 MSa/sec:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mho900-testreview-(mho984)/msg6106031/#msg6106031

[kmoonwalker]

How much confidence does that give you in the brand ?

From one side I agree with you how it sounds

On another hand I seen he also changed some ways how scope works so it is not limited to fixing some obvious bugs.

There are some things one could wish for Siglent too - it is more that Siglent made its firmware more "rounded" and Rigol done really bad job simply "asking" for someone to work this out...

And yes both approaches are discussable and Rigol should made a lot more to fix their stuff but regardless of unlocking things etc for me ideal scope would be kinda composed from good design frontend with some processing unit that we could conncet to PC to unlock more from it (kinda like old LeCroy scopes were when you upgraded CPU or whole mobo kit to i5 and got something in another class so concluding I think that Rigol not only treats persons like Norbert as marketing + factor for sale but also as modders whom can show them a way for different solutions (and I really think best move for them would be to simply pay them and use their talents but big companies are kinda slow in momentum and slower the bigger they get - best example is how fast Batronix implements things compared to others)

[electr_peter]

That was a good idea, because the measured values deviate early on.
At 50µs/s, the frequency and voltage are already incorrect, and at 10ms/div they are clearly wrong.
(Previous measurements with 1 MHz:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mho900-testreview-(mho984)/msg6103897/#msg6103897 )

Sine wave AC RMS goes from ~200mV to ~280mV as if underlying data is now a square wave. AC RMS value should be less even with severe undersampling. Something fishy is going on with AC RMS calculation...

[Martin72]

There are a few other things that seem strange in terms of why it was done this way and not differently.
For example, the display mode can only ever be vector... Why?
The same goes for interpolation.
With the DHO800, one could have argued that because it was very cheap, it had fewer settings.
But this is true of the entire 12-bit series, right up to the very expensive MHO5000.
Batronix wants the scope back soon, so hopefully I'll manage to complete the tests I wanted to do before then.

[thm_w]

Rigol is totally aware of the hacking. I've spoken to people at Rigol who said so (they're probably reading this now - they read EEVBLOG, too).

Yeah but why stir the pot? Everyone already knew the answer wrt to support, its already clear. They may read the forum but not every thread and every post. Disappointing.

Show me video proof of those improvements, I only see talk and a few screenshots about it, but no real demonstration of those improvements. Also why there's no review from those who bought the mods?

Don't you think if just one person paid and got scammed they'd come here to complain? Its an odd POV. 
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-hdo1000-and-hdo4000-12bit-oscilloscopes-launched-in-china/msg6100747/#msg6100747

And recent update is here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mho900-scope/msg6108239/#msg6108239

[carlitos49]

How do I get a hold of Norbert Kiszka?? sounds like the guy I need to contact
Hi there I was looking to purchase the limited edition of the Rigol MHO98 but it turned out I was to late so I can now only purchase the MHO984 the only problem is that everything is an option with this unit, so I was wondering if anyone has a hack or know of a hack that I could easily do to the MHO984 to give me most of those features or options on the MHO98 I would definitely be willing to pay within reason for such a thing, please let me know Thank you.

[thm_w]

How do I get a hold of Norbert Kiszka?? sounds like the guy I need to contact
Hi there I was looking to purchase the limited edition of the Rigol MHO98 but it turned out I was to late so I can now only purchase the MHO984 the only problem is that everything is an option with this unit, so I was wondering if anyone has a hack or know of a hack that I could easily do to the MHO984 to give me most of those features or options on the MHO98 I would definitely be willing to pay within reason for such a thing, please let me know Thank you.

Its in the second post in the thread above

[Martin72]

XY Mode....
I almost forgot, but thanks to the posts in the other thread, I didn't.

The menu for this is very clear, so you can't go wrong.
And it's true that setting persistence and intensity in the display menu has no effect on the XY displays.
Only when color grading is activated does the display change color—for whatever reason.
On the other hand, I like the option of displaying the XY display on its own, and full-screen mode can also be activated.
This, in turn, makes me want to play some oscilloscope music...
(Source: Batronix demo board, 5 kHz sine wave, fed into the board's BP filter, tap before (Ch1) and after the BP (Ch2))

[pizzigri]

Martin thank you so much, what is your opinion on the XY mode?