Windows 11 is dying....

[SteveThackery]

The downside is it's not free (but it is very cheap)

Does it require online activation?

I am thinking about if/when the company goes bust or otherwise goes AWOL. Also part of the reason why subscriptions, even at £24/yr, are bad news: you  can be arbitrarily prevented from using something you rely upon.

You have to enter a licence number to activate it, so I guess that gets sent to SoftMaker for validation. As for whether it needs an Internet connection beyond that, I don't know. If I get time I'll try it and report back.

Regarding the company going AWOL: I have a couple of thoughts. Firstly, who cares? There are plenty of other Office suites that do much the same job. If something went wrong I would use the online version of Office or download LibreOffice until I'd got the situation straightened out.

Secondly, "What if...?" isn't usually a great argument because you need to know the probability of it happening before it becomes a useful or meaningful argument. So of course the company might go bust, but there are lots of things in life, and in computing, that could go wrong. If you allow these unquantified possibilities to dominate your thinking you will miss out on all kinds of things in life.

My assessment is that the probability of the company going AWOL is low, and the consequence of that is low as well.

risk = probability x consequence = low x low = "Don't worry about it"

[SteveThackery]

Or SoftMaker Office if you want a cleaner and more modern UI. The downside is it's not free (but it is very cheap).

"very cheap" is an subjective concept. For me, 49.99 €/year is not cheap at all for a cleaner and more modern UI.

Half that if you use the five-machine "Home" licence, like me.

But I really appreciate your comment! Instead of calling me a Windows fanboy, or saying I'm biased against Linux, you present a simple and irrefutable argument: for you, the benefits don't outweigh the costs. Good for you, and I totally respect that. For me they do. We're all different.

We've been discussing in this thread whether Windows 11 is dying. A big factor in that is whether there is a viable alternative. Without an alternative, W11 wont die. Is Linux a viable alternative? For me, yes, definitely. There is nothing about W11 that I would really miss, and Linux Mint definitely floats my boat.

But I'm much more interested in the applications ecosystem, and it is that, not the OS itself, that strongly dissuades me. I love using good quality, elegant, well designed tools, both at my workbench and at my workstation. The reason I keep banging on about it is because I believe most other Windows desktop users will come to the same conclusion. That's why I think it will be the ecosystem that keeps Windows alive, not the merits of the OS itself.

[PlainName]

Automating a pointy-cilcky-draggy-droppy interface is not really worth doing, well outside of large commercial applications with macros etc.

I agree with that, although there are tools which will achieve that. But you need to separate the processes of designing and building. For design you would typically do one-off things. Create a form, shove a gadget here, etc. You're not going to repeat that on a scale that would demand (or be achievable) with automation (normally!). But building you do often and mostly the same way. So your design tool(s) would be graphical but build tools CLI based and ripe for automation.

[Siwastaja]

I think there are really two issues here that we see also in programming. First is that driving via text (a la LaTex) was the only choice since there were really no graphics around, and certainly no WYSIWYG. It's not that it was better; it was the only choice.

I'm really fine with the concept. I have programmed for ages and I am fine modifying code, then producing outputs from it.

What I don't like is my figure related to text on page 9 being on page 36, and after adding the recommended keywords to the code, it still being on page 36, or maybe on page 33 or 37, then only to find another package after package.

Some programming languages / frameworks are similar - and I don't like them either.

Also the \ {syntax} is heavy, especially with Finnish keyboard layout which needs AltGr for {}. Maybe I just want to align text. It is utterly excessive I have to write \ begin{align} and \ end{align} to achieve that. HTML-esque <align> </align> is much more manageable, for example. No wonder people rather click one button or hit tab or whatever.

The concept of reusable styles that can be configured from one place is of course excellent, when properly implemented - easy to use. Many WYSIWYG editors also fall into the trap of making using those styles requiring weirdly many clicks. Then we are back to applying styles one by one, and not being able to modify them all at once again. That's life.

[Analog Kid]

Just a note regarding image creation under Windoze:
Someone here mentioned how GIMP wasn't really up to this task.
For creating images I use two programs:

• For pure bitmaps, Paint Shop Pro, version 7.00
• For images with geometric elements, Corel Draw, version 12

Both of these are outdated.
Both work wonderfully well for the image-creation work I do.

Anyone else here use these?

[SteveThackery]

Just a note regarding image creation under Windoze:
Someone here mentioned how GIMP wasn't really up to this task.
For creating images I use two programs:

• For pure bitmaps, Paint Shop Pro, version 7.00
• For images with geometric elements, Corel Draw, version 12

AK, may I ask what OS you are using? Paint Shop Pro has grown into a bloat-monster, and I am very tempted to wind back a few versions but I don't know which are compatible with W11.

[m k]

My impression is that Corel Draw is a one way street.
It's fine if you control the whole life cycle of production.

Nowadays many print shops don't accept stuff without Disteller at all.

[Analog Kid]

Just a note regarding image creation under Windoze:
Someone here mentioned how GIMP wasn't really up to this task.
For creating images I use two programs:

• For pure bitmaps, Paint Shop Pro, version 7.00
• For images with geometric elements, Corel Draw, version 12

AK, may I ask what OS you are using? Paint Shop Pro has grown into a bloat-monster, and I am very tempted to wind back a few versions but I don't know which are compatible with W11.

Windows 7. The latest version that I will tolerate.
Yes, the newer versions of PSP (post being acquired by Corel) are horrible bloatware.
This is basically the old XP version produced by Jasc software.
I have no idea where one would get this: I've just carried the executables along with me since Windows 2000.
It requires no installation, just run the .exe from whereever it lives on your disk.

My impression is that Corel Draw is a one way street.
It's fine if you control the whole life cycle of production.

Nowadays many print shops don't accept stuff without Disteller at all.

Corel can export to a lot of formats. Besides the usual bitmap and vector formats there's EPS and AI (Adobe Illustrator), so there should be some pathway to the print shop's page placement software. (When I owned a print shop I used Adobe InDesign, where I could almost always just "place" the customer's PDF into a document and burn plates from it.)

[BrianHG]

Just a note regarding image creation under Windoze:
Someone here mentioned how GIMP wasn't really up to this task.
For creating images I use two programs:

• For pure bitmaps, Paint Shop Pro, version 7.00
• For images with geometric elements, Corel Draw, version 12

Both of these are outdated.
Both work wonderfully well for the image-creation work I do.

Anyone else here use these?

I use PaintShop Pro for images with stencils and multiple layers to generate final bitmaps with alpha channel transparency layer for my embedded devices which have bitmap displays and FreeBasic/C coding.

For fancier bitmap stuff, I use Adobe Photoshop Elements as it came for free with my laptop.  It also supports alpha channel stencils.

For technical illustrations and drawings, I use Open Office Draw.  Though, this work is usually just for flow charts.  I'm still looking a better tool designed specifically for flow-chart generation.

[smokeless0864]

Windows 7 here, it does what I tell it to.
Runs CATIA not Fusion360, Kicad not Altium

[PlainName]

Blimey! CAITA is more expensive than Altium plus a month in a 5-star holiday apartment.

[PlainName]

Anyone else here use these?

Once upon a time, but not for a very long while. Currently use either Affinity Photo (1.x since 2+ don't like W7) for manipulating images.

Or XNView MP for fixing up luminance, contrast, etc. of jpegs before posting, and adding furniture like arrows, text, etc. XNView MP is nice for screen captures too. I guess everything that PSP did, but is actually supported and bug fixed.

[Infraviolet]

If Windows 11 is dying, well this thread is certainly quite alive.

And I think this thread might be staying on continuously for rather longer than a Windows 11 (or Windows 10 for that matter) machine with mandated updates can.

But mostly I'm commenting here to give anyone who is saying "Linux isn't a good OS for me because the inbuilt programs that $distro ships with aren't up to scratch", a reminder that Wine (now in a new release, Wine 11, which claims further increases in compatiblity for Windows programs that couldn't be Wine'd before) exists. As do Windows virtual machines (in to which you can put whichever version of Windows you prefer, security vulnerabilitirs in legacy versions don't matter if the VM is staying offline).

I am quite the Linux evangelist (Mint, MATE desktop, it just works... genuinely, it just works, the only time I've ever NEEDED to do terminal tinkering was when initially installing some programs) , but Linux fans who start saying that coming to Linux means you should only be using Linux tools, instead of those you are already familiar with, are doing the Linux community quite the dis-service. People want an OS which runs the programs they already know. Fleeing from Windows shouldn't mean you have to leave all your programs behind, nor does it.



P.S. I've never met a printing shop which couldn't take jpg (or svg where vectors are concerned, and even then a sufficiently high resolution jpeg can always be used for any given size of printing) images. These don't guarantee the precise colours the way that some proprietary colour models do, but for most printed graphics you probably don't care whether a colour on screen is precisely the same as on paper/canvas/cotton/mugs/shirts/coasters/posters...

On Linux I've used GIMP for advanced image editing, I've never used Photoshop so didn't have to unlearn it to learn GIMP, though I have had to force the latest GIMP versions to return to the older style of GIMP user interface (with lots of pop-up windows for various tools). I've also used KolourPaint (adding to Zero999 and TizianoHV 's recommendations) for the sorts of quick, simple tasks that old M$ Paint was good for. And there's a tool called Xournal for when I've needed to make annotations upon pdf documents.

P.P.S. Flowcharts... I have found this in the past https://www.yworks.com/yed-live/  I'm not sure if there is a downloadable version, or if any downloadable version is fully standalone (can be activated on a new PC without a need to phone home), so I couldn't say whether this can be relied upon long-term... but for occasional one-off uses I've found it suitable.

P.P.P.S. Regarding claims of Linux being crash-prone vs Windows being stable... I've had close to zero real problems since leaving Windows for Linux in about 2017, all the more detailed technical tinkering has been when settings things up, once something is working on Linux I've found it stays working. And I've found Linux Mint has been perfectly happy with being cloned by dd between different machines, or having the same HDD swapped between different machines (though all the machines had some similarities, all UEFI, all similar era of CPU, all intel CPU, all SATA connection for HDD, all using inbuilt graphics of the CPU not dedicated graphics cards) and just booted without any modifications. And I've switched elderly relatives to Linux Mint from Windows, the sort of people who use nothing more than a browser, an email client, a document editor for simple text and a file browser. Did so because I found I couldn't assist them when Windows crashed as I couldn't keep up with all the ways Windows kept changing things, I've had zero requests for help since.

[Cyclotron]

If Windows 11 is dying, well this thread is certainly quite alive.

And I think this thread might be staying on continuously for rather longer than a Windows 11 (or Windows 10 for that matter) machine with mandated updates can.

But mostly I'm commenting here to give anyone who is saying "Linux isn't a good OS for me because the inbuilt programs that $distro ships with aren't up to scratch", a reminder that Wine (now in a new release, Wine 11, which claims further increases in compatiblity for Windows programs that couldn't be Wine'd before) exists. As do Windows virtual machines (in to which you can put whichever version of Windows you prefer, security vulnerabilitirs in legacy versions don't matter if the VM is staying offline).

I am quite the Linux evangelist (Mint, MATE desktop, it just works... genuinely, it just works, the only time I've ever NEEDED to do terminal tinkering was when initially installing some programs) , but Linux fans who start saying that coming to Linux means you should only be using Linux tools, instead of those you are already familiar with, are doing the Linux community quite the dis-service. People want an OS which runs the programs they already know. Fleeing from Windows shouldn't mean you have to leave all your programs behind, nor does it.

A self-proclaimed Linux evangelist immediately talks about running Windows while "Fleeing from Windows". Do you also believe the fairytale that Linux is more secure? Does Linux never change?

As I see it, your argument is that one can ditch Windows and run Linux and Windows. What a concept. Thanks, but, uhm, no.

[SteveThackery]

But mostly I'm commenting here to give anyone who is saying "Linux isn't a good OS for me because the inbuilt programs that $distro ships with aren't up to scratch", a reminder that Wine (now in a new release, Wine 11, which claims further increases in compatiblity for Windows programs that couldn't be Wine'd before) exists. As do Windows virtual machines (in to which you can put whichever version of Windows you prefer, security vulnerabilitirs in legacy versions don't matter if the VM is staying offline).

There is a published compatibility list showing what Windows applications will run under WINE. To be honest it isn't that great. As you know I don't care much about the OS, much more about the apps, so I might as well run Windows apps in Windows. I do use VMs, but they aren't really very convenient, so I've pretty much stopped using them. For example, I had a Windows XP VM because I loved a particular version of Visio, but it was too much messing about and in the end I moved to a more recent version.

I am quite the Linux evangelist (Mint, MATE desktop, it just works... genuinely, it just works...

So does Windows, for me. Probably for hundreds of millions of others, too.

Regarding claims of Linux being crash-prone vs Windows being stable... I've had close to zero real problems since leaving Windows for Linux in about 2017, all the more detailed technical tinkering has been when settings things up, once something is working on Linux I've found it stays working.

I haven't found Linux to be crash-prone in recent times, but it has happened to me in the past. It was probably running in a VM, so it hardly counts. I think both OSs are extremely stable and very difficult to crash unless you install a bad kernel-mode driver, which - let's be honest - can mess up any OS.

I found I couldn't assist them when Windows crashed as I couldn't keep up with all the ways Windows kept changing things, I've had zero requests for help since.

OK, but I don't believe Windows "crashed". We throw that word around like it's a normal thing, but both OSs are built to be uncrashable by the end user, and I think 99% of "crashes" - in both OSs - are nothing of the sort. Far more likely is an application crash or freeze, or some other event that the user didn't expect or know how to handle.

In my experience, the only way to crash either OS is to install a bad kernel-mode driver OR have a hardware fault. And when it comes to the applications, there's no reason why either Windows or Linux apps should be any more stable than the other.

[soldar]

A self-proclaimed Linux evangelist immediately talks about running Windows while "Fleeing from Windows". Do you also believe the fairytale that Linux is more secure? Does Linux never change?

As I see it, your argument is that one can ditch Windows and run Linux and Windows. What a concept. Thanks, but, uhm, no.

I think you are misunderstanding what he is trying to say. Or, at least, I understand it differently.

I understand that you can transition smoothly from one to the other and I agree with that.

I have been using Linux Mint as my main OS for about 10 years now and I am very satisfied with it but I still use a couple of Windows programs with WINE.

[PlainName]

I have been using Linux Mint as my main OS for about 10 years now and I am very satisfied with it but I still use a couple of Windows programs with WINE.

Which was the last Windows version you used exclusively?

[madires]

It doesn't matter much if we like or dislike Windows. The most obvious problem with Windows (actually Microsoft overall) is that it has become a liability with the way Microsoft envisions its future, the monthly update disasters, the security debacles, data collection, enforced Microsoft accounts, general enshitification, and many things more. It's up to you to decide if you want to own your PC or being owned.

[m k]

but for most printed graphics you probably don't care whether a colour on screen is precisely the same

Heh.

When I owned a print shop...

Back in the day external and EPS meant just a size of it as a preview for a rotation.
No wonder Distiller was invented.

Old Corel had also its own coloring system, still ICC of something, no idea how general it is today.
Adding that to JPGs of the-only-possible-original-of-the-week and possibly "exotic" electric printing, no wonder mixing ecosystems is not a desirable state.
Other possibility for original may have been a PDF, but the same JPG in it is then a thump size.

Did you have a process camera?
Here all cameras were practically gone when color scanners appeared.

I saw one of the last old ones, with meters long chassis and stack of large rasterizing films of initially who knows how expensive.
No wonder electrical scanners were loudly greeted.

Did you do film printing or straight to plate?

Here my fist interaction was Linotronic 100 and multiple Mac something feeding it through 10base2.
Software was PageMaker and output obviously Postscript, no daylight film either.
I advised them to do RIP per workstation and send a bitmap, but maybe alpha channel didn't cooperate, something transparent became solid and they kept on struggling.
It was a new system and workers were still learning how to do it with PageMaker, very powerful union behind them also.
Pretty much a different world back then, where yesterday was scissors, glue sticks, light table and so on.

[Cyclotron]

A self-proclaimed Linux evangelist immediately talks about running Windows while "Fleeing from Windows". Do you also believe the fairytale that Linux is more secure? Does Linux never change?

As I see it, your argument is that one can ditch Windows and run Linux and Windows. What a concept. Thanks, but, uhm, no.

I think you are misunderstanding what he is trying to say. Or, at least, I understand it differently.

I understand that you can transition smoothly from one to the other and I agree with that.

I have been using Linux Mint as my main OS for about 10 years now and I am very satisfied with it but I still use a couple of Windows programs with WINE.

I think we are close. To be clear about my perspective. I want an OS to do OS stuff and provide a platform that runs the applications I use most efficiently. The friction of getting the applications I need to use is important to me.

If the applications I wish to run are best or easiest on Windows, it seems contrived to get WINE working on Linux and then get my preferred Windows app working on WINE on Linux, vs. just starting the computer and running the application on Windows.

Also, I should be clear. I don't run Windows. I use macOS for my user interface. I use Windows and Linux on other systems. I have at least 40 systems running at any given time, between hardware and VMs on my servers. All of the apps that I want to run as a user are native to macOS and no VM/WINE is required.

The other implications I've seen and addressed are that people believe a myth that Linux is more secure than Windows, and that Linux doesn't change. Both of these are falsehoods as far as I know. In fact, Linux tops the charts in most breached and most vulnerabilities.
And as for changes, the Linux desktop is so splintered that it's amazing anything works across them all. It would be better to say "move to linux where if you can't find a distro that currently does things the way you want, you're not looking."  It's anything but consistent and stable.

[soldar]

I think we are close. To be clear about my perspective. I want an OS to do OS stuff and provide a platform that runs the applications I use most efficiently. The friction of getting the applications I need to use is important to me.

If the applications I wish to run are best or easiest on Windows, it seems contrived to get WINE working on Linux and then get my preferred Windows app working on WINE on Linux, vs. just starting the computer and running the application on Windows.

Also, I should be clear. I don't run Windows. I use macOS for my user interface. I use Windows and Linux on other systems. I have at least 40 systems running at any given time, between hardware and VMs on my servers. All of the apps that I want to run as a user are native to macOS and no VM/WINE is required.

The other implications I've seen and addressed are that people believe a myth that Linux is more secure than Windows, and that Linux doesn't change. Both of these are falsehoods as far as I know. In fact, Linux tops the charts in most breached and most vulnerabilities.
And as for changes, the Linux desktop is so splintered that it's amazing anything works across them all. It would be better to say "move to linux where if you can't find a distro that currently does things the way you want, you're not looking."  It's anything but consistent and stable.

Maybe it's just me but I seem to detect a confrontational tone. It's like you are looking for someone to contradict you. As far as I am concerned you can do and think whatever you want and whatever makes you happy and works for you. I'm not here to argue. If you are looking for the Monty Python Argument Clinic I'm afrarid it's not me.

The "Linux desktop is so splintered" I do not understand. I have used Mint (with the default Cinnamon desktop) for about ten years now and have yet to see any splinters on my desktop. The existence of other distros of Linux and other desktops affects me just as much as the existence of Windows or Apple: exactly zero.

I do not understand the complaint that there are too many distros of Linux. Well, I only use one and I don't care how many others exist. They don't affect me in the least.  Just like the existence of Windows or Apple or Android or anything else.

The "it seems contrived to get WINE working on Linux and then get my preferred Windows app working on WINE on Linux" I do not understand. When I installed Linux Mint, I install WINE and my desired Windows program and from then on they just work. I click on the icon and it starts. Someone who does not know better would think the program is running natively. It's like installing a driver. You install it it once and then forget it. I really do not understand the complaint.

The "Linux doesn't change" seems like a strange thing to say either in the affirmative or the negative. In my experience everything changes. So Linux changes... so what?  I dislike change but I just have to get used to change because I have no other option. The fact that I dislike change is the main reason I am running some Windows programs with Linux because there are other Linux programs which could serve the same purpose.

To each his own. I have chosen Linux because I dislike "telemetry" (spying), I dislike Windows' heavy handed update policies, and because Linux requires less resources and can run on older computers which can no longer run Windows. I have more control over my own computer and I like that.

If other people prefer Windows or Apple or other Linux distros or a walk in the park, well, more power to them. They do not affect me in the least. 

[Siwastaja]

Well, Nokia was already spiraling to death at that point due to earlier mistakes (and to be fair, keeping that sort of company running when technology changes all the time and you need to react correct and timely, is not easy task at all). Just maybe it could have been saved (as a large scale mobile phone manufacturer) with some genius-level management changes, but Microsoft involvement was obviously a conscious decision to do the opposite: to kill it deliberately, pull the plug so to speak.

Do you really think so?

Yes. Really it seemed obvious to most people inside the corporation and also to most others that the MS deal is not going to end up working, like chances of success are exactly 0%. Now doing anything else could have been chances close to 0%, but still non-zero. Selling out to MS was obviously looking like total surrender, in a tight situation where fighting with own, sensible product line still was a remote possibility. In a desperate situation, doing something brave and unique could have worked, but nah, the whole demise of Nokia was problem of poor management - and bloated middle management - and when a large ship is going down because it's too large, it's very hard to save. Selling out to MS probably saved personal careers of many, and just like "no one got fired by buying IBM", no one also got fired for selling out to Microsoft, so then we can just look at the obvious result and say "oh we did our best".

But that also reflects the root issue, lack of passion, lack of interest of delivering excellent result for end users.

[Siwastaja]

Just a note regarding image creation under Windoze:
Someone here mentioned how GIMP wasn't really up to this task.
For creating images I use two programs:

• For pure bitmaps, Paint Shop Pro, version 7.00
• For images with geometric elements, Corel Draw, version 12

Both of these are outdated.
Both work wonderfully well for the image-creation work I do.

Anyone else here use these?

I used Paint Shop Pro, I think it was version 6.0 or something (maybe from 1999?), for a very long time, up until 2015 or so. It was - and still is - a program with very decent feature set for its age, and UX was just excellent - very intuitive. Corel Draw I didn't use but hear mostly positive comments, it seems to have similar cult following to Paint Shop Pro.

Good software is delight to work with - no matter the license, cost or age.

[Siwastaja]

The "Linux desktop is so splintered" I do not understand. I have used Mint (with the default Cinnamon desktop) for about ten years now and have yet to see any splinters on my desktop. The existence of other distros of Linux and other desktops affects me just as much as the existence of Windows or Apple: exactly zero.

I do not understand the complaint that there are too many distros of Linux. Well, I only use one and I don't care how many others exist. They don't affect me in the least.  Just like the existence of Windows or Apple or Android or anything else.

Logically you are right of course, but you are missing the point these people make: they think that with fewer "splintering" and fewer distros the same amount of resources would be put into doing less of the repeated work, so that a better quality software would be delivered instead. Whether this is true at all is another question; I don't think it is. In world of free / open source software, many people/companies do whatever they want to do exactly because they can do what they want; they would not be doing something else instead just because someone directed them to. Plus, competition drives innovation, too. Duplicated work, while inefficient, increases security against single points of failure.

[nctnico]

The "Linux desktop is so splintered" I do not understand. I have used Mint (with the default Cinnamon desktop) for about ten years now and have yet to see any splinters on my desktop. The existence of other distros of Linux and other desktops affects me just as much as the existence of Windows or Apple: exactly zero.

I do not understand the complaint that there are too many distros of Linux. Well, I only use one and I don't care how many others exist. They don't affect me in the least.  Just like the existence of Windows or Apple or Android or anything else.

Logically you are right of course, but you are missing the point these people make: they think that with fewer "splintering" and fewer distros the same amount of resources would be put into doing less of the repeated work, so that a better quality software would be delivered instead. Whether this is true at all is another question; I don't think it is. In world of free / open source software, many people/companies do whatever they want to do exactly because they can do what they want; they would not be doing something else instead just because someone directed them to. Plus, competition drives innovation, too. Duplicated work, while inefficient, increases security against single points of failure.

Actually, the distros aren't that important. They are like fixed menus in a restaurant. The chef selected courses and drinks which go well together. It is the underlying software that is being developed which is important. Distros can be conservative and choose proven recepies while other distros are on the cutting edge of fusion cooking.