Windows 11 is dying....

[Cyclotron]

Just another observation.  In my experience Windows users tend to be "Single boxed" users.  They debate on whether to install Windows 7 or Windows 10/11.

Linux aficionados tend to be multi-box, and/or dual boot.
......
..

As I read this, I was initially nodding. But after some thought, I don't think I agree completely with who the single-box people are.

In my experience, most technical people are multi-OS as you describe. I am for sure, I have hundreds of OSes running in my house, from a Proxmox server with the majority of the VMs, Kubernetes, Linux containers, Windows XP, 7, 10, and 11, to 2 Lab Windows 10 and 11 computers for my EE hobby. I have a Raspberry Pi for GPIB, one on my 3D printer, and 4 laptops, 2 running Windows and 2 running macOS. A dedicated DVR host, a Linux box running a firewall, and one running Home Assistant. And then the macOS daily driver that is my corp laptop.  Those are just the ones I can think of right away.

People who treat their PCs as appliances are more likely to use macOS or Windows, and that's it. Linux desktop users will be hobbyists for sure. I think it will be rare to find Linux as the base OS on corporate desktops. It isn't compatible with MDM and so many other fleet management systems. Corporate IT/InfoSec would not allow it. I'm sure someone will say they use Linux at work, and that's fine, here's your corner case.

So, I'd refine a bit. The vast majority of people in the world see a computer as an appliance, and those are very much Windows and macOS.
There are going to be a few Linux users who somehow got there and still use the computer as an appliance. They could still be single-box users, but will lean in as hobbyists and likely have more diversity, as you mentioned.  Then there's the larger group of hobbyists and professionals who use Windows, macOS, and Linux daily and have tons of diverse OSs everywhere.

I don't know, after writing the wall of text, I still may land with your generalization being best. 

[Cyclotron]

Linux aficionados tend to be multi-box, and/or dual boot.

That's a bit confusing, particularly given the rest of that post. It's not the stuff you run in a VM or headless in a rack that we are talking about here. This is about your primary machine, the one you use all the time. So, for instance, when I say I run W7 that's what I use all the time. It's my primary workhorse. But I have other PCs that run Linux and W10, and VMs that run all of that and some other stuff. It's that primary - W7 for me - that is being discussed.

Now, having got that out of the way, I can't believe that anyone dual booting is invested in their machine OS. Why? Because there is no possibility of just running up that app on the other OS for a moment to check something. No, it's a shut this down and everything I'm doing, wait for the reset, then the reboot, select the other OS, bo....ot, and now for a couple of seconds run that app and damn, I forgot what I was checking.

Fair points. I didn't really see the thread as being about "your primary machine".  It seemed to be mostly about bashing Windows or Microsoft.

But if it is only about the primary, are we only talking primary as in during work or after?  I spend almost all of my time on my corporate laptop since I travel a lot, and there's no way I'm lugging two computers around the world. As I mentioned in my prior post, no corporations that I'm aware of are allowing their users to generally use Linux. They wouldn't allow your favored Windows 7 either.

[PlainName]

But if it is only about the primary, are we only talking primary as in during work or after?  I spend almost all of my time on my corporate laptop since I travel a lot, and there's no way I'm lugging two computers around the world.

That's a good question. I could imagine someone spending all day on a corporate PC and then doing hobby stuff in the short time between dinner and bed. I think by 'primary' we would say that it is the on they have a choice over, so that PC doing the hobby stuff is the primary.

But that's a very different usage scenario to someone who, say, works for themselves or has a choice in their work-time machine (or maybe just doesn't work). If I used something for a couple of hours a few times a week it wouldn't have much impact on me and so what if the file manager was basic. But if I'm using it all the time then I would be much more intolerant of flaws, and appreciate smoother operating.

[paulca]

My daily working from home is
* Personal Kubnutu on a 43" 4K HDR1000 144Hz monitor.  A tiny little MinisForum with a 5600U laptop CPU in it.  It is more than capable of keeping up with modern webbrowsing and 4K streamed videos. 
* Corp laptop, 16" Macbook Pro
* Customer laptop, 14" Macbook Pro  w/ 34" UltraWide which switch between the macs.
* 2 external keyboards and 2 external mice.  All 3 channel switchable so can operate 3 different computers each.

So, while I am waiting on a build, deploy, test or something I can read the EEVBlog forum, or prompt claude on the personal PC or go catchup on admin on the corp laptop.

Travelling is where it becomes a bit more annoying.  Like heading into the office.  Then I have to lug 2 laptops for now.  When things get settled and I setup "Customer->Corp eco system" logins and MFAs I should be able to do with one 90% of the time.  It also means I have to use the corp or customer laptop for personal browsing/comms... which goes through corporate monitoring.

VPNs allowing full access into my home from work accounts, just don't work.  Nobody's firewall is going to let you VPN to a random IP and create a bridge, 95% of the corp laptops I have sheparded have the networking more locked down than that.  If not on the device itself at the first router.

When I connect corporate devices to my network, they go on a VLAN and are kept separate from my LAN, because laptops are nosey and MacBooks especially will go digging through anything they can find and upload it to your Apple cloud account.... or the companies account.

[soldar]

  It isn't my experience that using WINE is as simple as you portray it. As late as last week, it took me over an hour to get a Windows program running in the setup I needed to test. The way I've seen evangelists post, one might think it's a double click, and away you go.

Let me clarify about WINE. I have a few programs I run with WINE and they work flawlessly since the day I installed them. I know they work with WINE and I install them with every new Mint install I do. I am just saying that those Windows programs known to work, probably a minority of them, work fine once installed.

At the same time, my experience is WINE is not going to run reliably most Windows programs so if you just try a random Windows program with WINE not knowing if it works then my guess is that it most probably won't or, if it does, it might need tinkering which I am not going to even try.

So what you say about trying a random Windows program with WINE and having problems does not surprise me at all.

When i need to run something Windows which will not run on WINE then I either run it on a VM or even fire up a real Windows machine.

But, just to be clear, if I try to install a Windows program in WINE and it does not work right away, then I do not spend one more minute trying and I just assume it is not worth the effort. And I just run it with Windows.

Same as some programs which only run with Linux: I just run them with Linux.

I just wish they would make versions for both worlds.

[madires]

If you want to know if a Windows application runs with Wine you can check https://appdb.winehq.org/ for compatibility and additional info.

[nigelwright7557]

Windows has been around for 30 years so its bound to get a competitor at some point.

I write Windows software and design websites so use Visual Studio.
So moving from Windows would be a nightmare.
Being a programmer makes me an unusual case though.
Most people just want a web browser and email client and a word processor.
If Linux covers that then go for it.

[SiliconWizard]

Speaking of Wine, since the update to Wine 11.0, LTSpice suddenly shows a number of GUI issues, including occasional crashes. Has anyone run into that? It ran flawlessly on Wine 10.x.

[m k]

The shop I owned was based on a Heidelberg Speedmaster 52-2. Incredible fucking piece of machinery (and also an incredible financial burden, since I was paying for it with a monthly lease).

All self aware pros know Heidelberg is the way.

Maybe a decade ago a friend still did some occasional sheets with a single GTO 46 unit.
And a bucket waited on a shelf if the bank needed envelopes.

Locally a fully functional SM 52-4 is for sale, 45k€ excluding VAT, times change.

99% of the time, when customers came in with a PDF of their piece, I could just open up InDesign, plop their PDF into a blank document and send it to the platemaker. No adjustments needed, including page bleeds or any other imposition choices.

I'd say that Windows and Indesign is not a mixed ecosystem, Windows is irrelevant here.

Did you do any prepress graphics with Corel from customer's original?
That would be a mixed ecosystem.

[Analog Kid]

The shop I owned was based on a Heidelberg Speedmaster 52-2. Incredible fucking piece of machinery (and also an incredible financial burden, since I was paying for it with a monthly lease).

All self aware pros know Heidelberg is the way.

Yep, pretty much can't be beat.

Maybe a decade ago a friend still did some occasional sheets with a single GTO 46 unit.
And a bucket waited on a shelf if the bank needed envelopes.

Bucket? What, the plates were in the bucket? or the envelopes?

Locally a fully functional SM 52-4 is for sale, 45k€ excluding VAT, times change.

Really? 45K?
Is it running? I'm guessing that piece of gear here (U.S.) would fetch about 10 times that if in good operating condition.
It's not at all like those are obsolete pieces of equipment.

One of my dreams (never to be realized) would be to have a small basement shop with a Heidelberg windmill and a bunch of type cabinets ...

(In one job I had I learned how to make photopolymer plates for the owner's windmill; he made a lot of $$$ printing wedding invitations and such on letterpress. People like the tactile indentations ...)

[m k]

Color bucket.

Some big companies were supporting local small ones, like printing stuff.
That's pretty much gone now, everything is centralized.

Aluminum plates were also stored, but straight, short side up and covered with protection wax.
Pretty messy if you thought you'll reuse them on day.

For 52-4,
fully functional can have levels, I'd expect it's also for demand and installation difficulties, small country.

Windmill,
I think I've commented of it earlier somewhere, incredible machine when you see it operating first time.
It can also cover elevations, if you can match the position.

[Analog Kid]

Color bucket.

You mean like premixed PMS inks?

Some big companies were supporting local small ones, like printing stuff.
That's pretty much gone now, everything is centralized.

Tell me about it. When I owned my shop (ca. 2004), offset printing was just going away as a craft.
It has since become just a commodity.
Most of the work I would have done is now done by online companies who gang up jobs (sell sheets, brochures, etc.) on a big 4-color press.
They do good work but it's no longer craft-oriented.
Press checks? Fuggedaboudit.

Aluminum plates were also stored, but straight, short side up and covered with protection wax.
Pretty messy if you thought you'll reuse them on day.

I think you mean gum arabic instead of "wax". I've coated many a plate with that, buffed them dry and they're good to go for the next run. No mess at all.

Windmill,
I think I've commented of it earlier somewhere, incredible machine when you see it operating first time.
It can also cover elevations, if you can match the position.

Elevations?

[m k]

Color bucket.

You mean like premixed PMS inks?

Yes.

I think you mean gum arabic instead of "wax". I've coated many a plate with that, buffed them dry and they're good to go for the next run. No mess at all.

Yes, rubber of sorts.

Messy as disorganized short, middle and long time storage, finally including who knows what of regular shelved stacks.

Elevations?

Embossing.

It's an old area of technicalities, so we also have dedicated words for many parts and specific exclusive words for detailed operations.
Vocabulary is partially so that outsider just don't know what's happening, or is misled by their normal wrong context.

Language example.
Noun 'duuni' is a slang word for work, 'duunari' is a blue collar worker, the word is so regular that it's not really a slang word anymore.
Verb 'duunata' is originally an exact description of smearing ink of offset press, clearly a loan or maybe a sibling of Swedish slang.

[BrianHG]

  

Notepad, seriously......



 

[nctnico]

I felt happy using Linux. After watching that video, it dawned to me I'm stuck with Linux if I want to get work done 

[BrianHG]

I'm stuck with Linux if I want to get work done 

Yup, I'm going to do a major all of my systems upgrade this spring.  Everything I own now is Win7 and I am glad these machines served me for 12 years only needing minor memory and HD upgrades once.  I'm also glad I never went beyond Win7, even with M$ attempt to force Win10 on me.

Screw Win11, this spring, all new, everything Linux, and that will be it.
However, Apple's Macbook offerings are truly enticing, it just how do you do software and hardware development on those devices.  I'm not interested in re-learning what programming is like.

At least with Linux, I have some familiarity with the available C/C++ compilers and root USB access.

[soldar]

I'm stuck with Linux if I want to get work done 

Yup, I'm going to do a major all of my systems upgrade this spring.  Everything I own now is Win7 and I am glad these machines served me for 12 years only needing minor memory and HD upgrades once.  I'm also glad I never went beyond Win7, even with M$ attempt to force Win10 on me.

Screw Win11, this spring, all new, everything Linux, and that will be it.
However, Apple's Macbook offerings are truly enticing, it just how do you do software and hardware development on those devices.  I'm not interested in re-learning what programming is like.

At least with Linux, I have some familiarity with the available C/C++ compilers and root USB access.

It was when they tried to force me to Win7 that i started double booting with Linux Mint and i very soon saw that i almost never used Win7 so i disconnected the Win7 HDD just to save energy and it just sits there. I have not connected it in many years.

I am very satisfied with Mint and I recommend it. I have installed it in many computers for family and friends and all have been satisfied. For a user experience it is the closest to Windows.

[Randy222]

Screw Win11, this spring, all new, everything Linux, and that will be it.
However, Apple's Macbook offerings are truly enticing, it just how do you do software and hardware development on those devices.  I'm not interested in re-learning what programming is like.

At least with Linux, I have some familiarity with the available C/C++ compilers and root USB access.

Which of the 50 flavors of Linux? Debian Ubuntu LTS / Mint, or RedHat Rocky or Alma, maybe Slack? Maybe freeBSD, or one of each. lol.

I have to say, I am no crapple fan, but then again, millions of others have made crapple very rich. I think it's more like owning Levi over Amazon Basics (the mentatlity, "Von Dutch").

Agreed though, Windoze is a Mycrudsoft thing that is moving into the realm of just monitoring your every key click. I mean, if you just take the defaults then MS has all the keys to you OS & hardware.

[Analog Kid]

My solution:

Windoze 7

No phoning home.
No upgrades possible, or needed.
No endless diddling with configuration files and tweaking the OS (looking at you, *nix).
Does what I need it to do well.

Disclaimer: I'm a hobbyist, so I'm not constrained by needing the latest and greatest either in the OS or applications.

[Randy222]

My solution:

Windoze 7

No phoning home.
No upgrades possible, or needed.
No endless diddling with configuration files and tweaking the OS (looking at you, *nix).
Does what I need it to do well.

Disclaimer: I'm a hobbyist, so I'm not constrained by needing the latest and greatest either in the OS or applications.

Who's applyig fixes to windows 7 when that 0day pops up? Are you calling Gates?
Plus, what about the "min" specs that programs come with?

Win10 is basically obsolete now.

[Analog Kid]

My solution:

Windoze 7

No phoning home.
No upgrades possible, or needed.
No endless diddling with configuration files and tweaking the OS (looking at you, *nix).
Does what I need it to do well.

Disclaimer: I'm a hobbyist, so I'm not constrained by needing the latest and greatest either in the OS or applications.

Who's applyig fixes to windows 7 when that 0day pops up? Are you calling Gates?
Plus, what about the "min" specs that programs come with?

As I explained, not a problem, since I don't anticipate needing any fancy new software that won't run on 7.
I'm happy with my motley assortment of apps.

Zero day for Windows 7? Is that a real thing, or just some peoples' supposition?
I mean, that would require some kind of active counter within the OS that disables it when it reaches zero, right?
Like a ticking time bomb.
Now, I have a very low opinion of Micro$oft, but I really can't see them doing something nasty like that.

[nctnico]

Screw Win11, this spring, all new, everything Linux, and that will be it.
However, Apple's Macbook offerings are truly enticing, it just how do you do software and hardware development on those devices.  I'm not interested in re-learning what programming is like.

At least with Linux, I have some familiarity with the available C/C++ compilers and root USB access.

Which of the 50 flavors of Linux? Debian Ubuntu LTS / Mint, or RedHat Rocky or Alma, maybe Slack? Maybe freeBSD, or one of each. lol.

It is kind of funny how people think there are many flavours of Linux. In reality there are less than a handful of window managers and the underlying software is all the same. A Linux distribution is nothing more than a playlist on Spotify. Some are better curated than others and have different defaults but all can be made to look & feel the same.

[soldar]

Screw Win11, this spring, all new, everything Linux, and that will be it.
However, Apple's Macbook offerings are truly enticing, it just how do you do software and hardware development on those devices.  I'm not interested in re-learning what programming is like.

At least with Linux, I have some familiarity with the available C/C++ compilers and root USB access.

Which of the 50 flavors of Linux? Debian Ubuntu LTS / Mint, or RedHat Rocky or Alma, maybe Slack? Maybe freeBSD, or one of each. lol.

It is kind of funny how people think there are many flavours of Linux. In reality there are less than a handful of window managers and the underlying software is all the same. A Linux distribution is nothing more than a playlist on Spotify. Some are better curated than others and have different defaults but all can be made to look & feel the same.

Not only that but I do not understand why some people want to make the availability of choices into something negative. Like saying "I will stick with my horse and buggy because there are just too many brands of automobiles to choose from".

Ten or twelve years ago I decided to try Linux and I asked around a bit and i saw Mint was said to be easy to transition to from Windows. So I gave it a try and today I am still using Linux Mint. I have not tried any other distros. I do not need to. Their existence does not bother me in the least. If I wanted to tinker with things I suppose I could find them useful. But I don't. i just want a computer that works for my simple needs.

Mint is simple to install and will run on computers than cannot run Windows. And it does all I need.

[SteveThackery]

Who's applyig fixes to windows 7 when that 0day pops up? Are you calling Gates?
Plus, what about the "min" specs that programs come with?

It's interesting - the "no security updates" mantra is rolled out all the time when people talk about keeping their Windows 7 machines running. But where is the evidence? When was the last time a showstopper virus or malware brought the W7 community to its knees? The answer: never. Windows 7 just works, and although there might be theoretical risks there seem to be little or no real risks. Sitting behind a NAT router makes an enormous difference. After that, a reasonable degree of security hygiene by the users seems to be enough.

[Cyclotron]

Not only that but I do not understand why some people want to make the availability of choices into something negative. Like saying "I will stick with my horse and buggy because there are just too many brands of automobiles to choose from".

In general, the availability of choices is negative, or at least the research says this is the case. I can only speak to the research I've read and the experiments I've run, but both indicate that more choices lead to less satisfactory outcomes.

There's plenty to read on the subject if you are so inclined. I'd recommend "The Paradox of Choice" by Barry Schwartz.