Windows 11 is dying....

[soldar]

BINGO!!  During my children's school years, I made sure they were not admins and couldn't install anything.  I stayed sane though the number of requests for "can I get this" was high, it was better than dealing with the other side.
I also placed their machines on their own VLAN and firewall interfaces.

Haha, this reminds me just a few years ago my teenage nephew, who had been told not to install anything without asking first, tried to install something on his own computer but couldn't .

He told his mother who just shrugged because she knows nothing about computers. She told him to ask me, the Lord of all family computers, but he did not even try because he knew the answer beforehand. He told his mother his friend just clicked on the "Program.exe" file and it installed but for him it didn't work. Why could that be?

I did not tell him the secret but (1) you only have guest privileges and (2) that computer is running Linux you dumdum!

And even then he has his own computer. There is no chance in the world a teenager is using my computer under any circumstances. Computers are cheap enough that he can have his own and I don't need to take any risk at all. If someone is going to break my computer it is going to be me.

[nctnico]

BINGO!!  During my children's school years, I made sure they were not admins and couldn't install anything.  I stayed sane though the number of requests for "can I get this" was high, it was better than dealing with the other side.
I also placed their machines on their own VLAN and firewall interfaces.

That worked for exactly 2 days for my kids. Age 7 and 9 and they bypassed the user account level in two days.

[Cyclotron]

BINGO!!  During my children's school years, I made sure they were not admins and couldn't install anything.  I stayed sane though the number of requests for "can I get this" was high, it was better than dealing with the other side.
I also placed their machines on their own VLAN and firewall interfaces.

That worked for exactly 2 days for my kids. Age 7 and 9 and they bypassed the user account level in two days.

Indeed, it was a struggle. Neither of them knew their content was being proxied, or that I had forbidden binary downloads to their systems. Just like all security, I just had to make it difficult enough that they'd move on.

As a CyberSecurity professional, I thought it was good excercises for me to see how to contain them without them knowing they were being contained. So while they gamed the system, the system gamed them. 

[Zero999]

It's not tabbed toolbars which are the problem. I've used them before. TINA had over one a decade before MS Office. As with many things with Microsoft, it's the implementation which is uniquely bad.

A ribbon is much more than a tabbed toolbar - it was genuinely innovative.

How? Sorry, that sounds like marketing. I don't see how there's anything uniquely innovative about the MS Ribbon user interface.

As you will have gathered, I love the cut and thrust of a vigorous debate. However, this is one I don't want to pursue. Firstly, we went through it all several months ago in another thread, so a lot would just be repeating the same old stuff.

Secondly - and I mean no discourtesy - I don't believe you are approaching this with a truly open mind. I think that no matter what arguments and evidence I present to you, you've already made up your mind about the ribbon and won't change it.  So on this occasion I'm not going to invest any effort into it.

If, one day, you feel like knowing more about the ribbon - why it was needed and how it was developed - I think the best place to start would be this talk by Jensen Harris.

 
(It's the first of a series.)

In particular you might be interested to learn that, before the ribbon, the majority of new feature requests from users were for features that already existed, but were hidden in a lengthy, nested menu or behind an obscure 32x32 icon in a toolbar. The big problem with the old menu/toolbar UI was a lack of discoverability. Ultimately the menu/toolbar paradigm just wasn't sufficiently scalable.

If you watch the video with a cynical mindset, you will be able to dismiss it as marketing bullshit and feel good about how you were right all along. If you watch with a truly open mind, open to being changed and willing to contemplate different ways of thinking, you might find it most enlightening.

Or you could not watch it at all on the grounds that you enjoy sneering at the ribbon, you like slagging off Microsoft for its ineptitude, and you have no intention of changing that position.

Well it just looks like some kind of marketing video to me, but maybe I'm being cynical.

My biggest criticism of Ribbon is they got rid of the menu bar, switching purely to icons. The menu bar was good, because it enabled access to all of the features which were clearly described. Now there's just the Ribbon which is packed with nondescript icons. I have used Ribbon quite a lot at work and would say they've made features less discoverable. Even now, I often feel frustrated taking time to rediscover features often to the point of thinking they've removed them and having to resort to Googling, which I have to repeat, when I've forgotten many months later.

[Analog Kid]

As I have said, my setup, configuration and procedures were:

- Disable as much of browser addons as possible
- Never click on anything the least doubtful
- Scan the computer once in a while with online virus scanner (never found anything)
- Disable IPV6, only enable IPV4 through router NAT
- Use Zonealarm firewall restricted to the max
- No AV software.

[my changes shown above]

Yes! especially to that bolded one.
Don't be promiscuous online. It's a dangerous world out there.

(I use a free resident (not online) AV (Total AV) that's actually partially disabled (expired) but still offers minimal protection, including real-time alerts and disk scans)

So far, no infections here. (Windoze 7)

[SteveThackery]

However, for me the big issue was that the ribbon just took up too much vertical space.

It takes up less vertical space than a toolbar if you set it to auto hide.

[PlainName]

However, for me the big issue was that the ribbon just took up too much vertical space.

It takes up less vertical space than a toolbar if you set it to auto hide.

Indeed, but at the start we didn't get that option. Now we don't need it we have it 

[soldar]

As I have said, my setup, configuration and procedures were:

- Disable as much of browser addons as possible
- Never click on anything the least doubtful
- Scan the computer once in a while with online virus scanner (never found anything)
- Disable IPV6, only enable IPV4 through router NAT
- Use Zonealarm firewall restricted to the max
- No AV software.

[my changes shown above]

Yes! especially to that bolded one.
Don't be promiscuous online. It's a dangerous world out there.

(I use a free resident (not online) AV (Total AV) that's actually partially disabled (expired) but still offers minimal protection, including real-time alerts and disk scans)

So far, n o infections here. (Windoze 7)

As someone said "the best antivirus is the one between your ears".

[Cyclotron]

However, for me the big issue was that the ribbon just took up too much vertical space.

It takes up less vertical space than a toolbar if you set it to auto hide.

Indeed, but at the start we didn't get that option. Now we don't need it we have it 

Bwhahaahahahahahahha. 
Do you remember going to that one friend or family members' computer because their browser was slow and found they had so many toolbars installed that they could see like 2 inches of web page?

I use a 46in monitor now. I can have all the tool bars, banners, and ribbons I want. 

[PlainName]

I just had that from 'a family friend' - PC being very slow, etc. Obviously stuffed with adware and the like, and no doubt something naughty is taking 95% CPU.

Except it wasn't. Very nice and clean machine, and the problem turned out to be an SSD that just couldn't read its own memory very quickly. No errors, but plenty of wear levelling usage.

[SteveThackery]

My biggest criticism of Ribbon is they got rid of the menu bar, switching purely to icons. The menu bar was good, because it enabled access to all of the features which were clearly described. Now there's just the Ribbon which is packed with nondescript icons. I have used Ribbon quite a lot at work and would say they've made features less discoverable. Even now, I often feel frustrated taking time to rediscover features often to the point of thinking they've removed them and having to resort to Googling, which I have to repeat, when I've forgotten many months later.

OK, so it obviously doesn't suit the way your brain works, whereas it definitely does mine. I do believe it improves discoverability, and I enjoy using it much more than menus and toolbars.

It's fine: we can agree to differ. 😁👍

[CatalinaWOW]

My biggest criticism of Ribbon is they got rid of the menu bar, switching purely to icons. The menu bar was good, because it enabled access to all of the features which were clearly described. Now there's just the Ribbon which is packed with nondescript icons. I have used Ribbon quite a lot at work and would say they've made features less discoverable. Even now, I often feel frustrated taking time to rediscover features often to the point of thinking they've removed them and having to resort to Googling, which I have to repeat, when I've forgotten many months later.

OK, so it obviously doesn't suit the way your brain works, whereas it definitely does mine. I do believe it improves discoverability, and I enjoy using it much more than menus and toolbars.

It's fine: we can agree to differ. 😁👍

But that is the heart of the matter.  On this forum we can observe our differences and not worry about it.  But Microsoft and others have picked sides and chosen one approach.   In the Office suite they have made you happier.  Great, until they decide something else is better.  I am on the other side of that divide, and wasn't even particularly happy with the 2003 version that automagically switched to reduced menus.  At least there was still an option to see the full menus.

[Analog Kid]

Regarding that ribbon that's being so hotly argued over here:
What is that?
Does this top-o'-the-screenshot show such a thing? or is this just a regular toolbar?



(this is Word 2003)

[Randy222]

It was toolbar until MS started using some new names to make the product sound better.
Ribbon is like toolbar but is usually a set of "tabs" or small containers that have a collection of tools.

[Zero999]

My biggest criticism of Ribbon is they got rid of the menu bar, switching purely to icons. The menu bar was good, because it enabled access to all of the features which were clearly described. Now there's just the Ribbon which is packed with nondescript icons. I have used Ribbon quite a lot at work and would say they've made features less discoverable. Even now, I often feel frustrated taking time to rediscover features often to the point of thinking they've removed them and having to resort to Googling, which I have to repeat, when I've forgotten many months later.

OK, so it obviously doesn't suit the way your brain works, whereas it definitely does mine. I do believe it improves discoverability, and I enjoy using it much more than menus and toolbars.

It's fine: we can agree to differ. 😁👍

But that is the heart of the matter.  On this forum we can observe our differences and not worry about it.  But Microsoft and others have picked sides and chosen one approach.   In the Office suite they have made you happier.  Great, until they decide something else is better.  I am on the other side of that divide, and wasn't even particularly happy with the 2003 version that automagically switched to reduced menus.  At least there was still an option to see the full menus.

And the beauty of LibreOffice is it now gives you a choice. The newer versions have the option of using a tabbed toolbar, similar to MS Office's Ribbon, except they can't call it that for trademark reasons.

[Karel]

Microsoft dials up the nagging in Windows, calls it security

More prompts when apps and agents roam around a user's system

"Just like on your smartphone," said Microsoft

https://www.theregister.com/2026/02/10/microsoft_windows_security/

[paulca]

The "All you need is NAT" argument is correct to a point.

Most infections/attacks are "Pull" not "Push" these days, because most networks have NAT.

Piggy backing on a NAT connection is, to my knowledge not something "typically" done.  Not in the "Who can I infect?" automated sense anyway.

If a router exists with a vul, it will be in scanners already which will be looking for that signature and reporting it back to their master.

To make it even "sane" you need a "Personal firewall" on the windows PC.  That is a firewall which watches your application/process connections and allows/denies OUTBOUND connections on a port per port, application by application.

A standard way to bypass firewalls is to run an agent on the host which connects out to you, rather than the other way.  Consider FTP.  Vanilia FTP the client connects to the FTP server "Command channel" and the FTP server connects back to the client for a data connection.  This does not traverse NAT.  So "No Passive" mode was introduced so that the client now starts the command connection and when the remote is ready, the data connection is also outbound.  Opened "on behalf of the remote", if you will.

Modern infestations, infections and attacks use the same technique.  How do they get the agents on your PC?  Usually web browsing and email.  "Usually". 

It's often not a one step process either.  Sometimes the initial attack does nothing but install a helper.  That help then starts 'reaching' out to the internet to inform "its masters" of where it is, request instructions.  Basically a backdoor.  There are websites you can got to, if you are brave, which provide realtime updated lists of identified vuls with meta data and IP address.   There are better ones, but you have to pay bitcoin for them.

Then we come to the "network neighbourhood".  The IP space around the machine in question.  Once inside your NAT they (automated scanners or a real person using the backdoor) will have free unabridged access to everything on your LAN.  That means that your messy, not updated Windows 10 machine that you got infected browsing pron, is more than capable of finding your firewall-less, antivirus less Windows 7 machine or VM and infecting it.

80% of the security in corporate sectors is internal.  Preventing one infected computer from infecting more computers is where the smarter companies with money to spend on security put it.

[Ranayna]

The "All you need is NAT" argument is correct to a point.

Most infections/attacks are "Pull" not "Push" these days, because most networks have NAT.

Piggy backing on a NAT connection is, to my knowledge not something "typically" done.  Not in the "Who can I infect?" automated sense anyway.
[...]

This is why it is absolutely paramount to keep any program that automatically accesses the internet either restricted, or up to date.
*Especially* your browser. In addition, limit what code your browser will execute automatically. At least use an adblocker. That will, if set to strict rules, already block a lot of potential problems. But if you are willing to put in a lot of configuration work and are willing to live with (partially) not functioning websites, a general script blocker can be considered as well.

[SteveThackery]

Regarding that ribbon that's being so hotly argued over here:
What is that?
Does this top-o'-the-screenshot show such a thing? or is this just a regular toolbar?

(this is Word 2003)

That's the toolbar.



I'm not at my PC just now, but the following are screenshots from SoftMaker TextMaker running on my Android tablet (which is why they are narrow). They aren't identical to Microsoft's ribbon, but very close. The only significant difference is the little blocks with rotated text in them, for expanding and contracting each section, which don't exist on the Windows version and are there to help with usability on a mobile-size screen.

Sorry - for some reason the forum software won't let me scale my pics to match yours.








You can see that the ribbon takes up significantly more space. It also takes up less space than a toolbar if you set it to auto hide. Note how the ribbon allows a mix of labelled and unlabelled icons. Also, you can see (from the down arrow) that some open up additional dialogs whereas the ones without arrows don't. One big change from toolbars is that the ribbon intelligently shrinks or expands to cope with different screen window widths. So a large icon with text might shrink to a small icon without text when the window is made smaller.

EDIT: I forgot to add that the ribbon can contain checkboxes, too - again, something not part of toolbar functionality.  Also, note how the ribbon can place icons in two - and sometimes three - vertical rows, another thing not part of Windows toolbar functionality. It exposes more features without using lots more space.

[SteveThackery]

Oh, I forgot: unlike Microsoft, SoftMaker still provides a full menu set, although it is behind the hamburger icon. (Edit: actually it looks more like a double cheeseburger.) All the usual keyboard shortcuts work with the ribbon.



One more thing: I think all the ribbon content is vector rather than the bitmaps of the old toolbar. Thus it will scale nicely on big, high resolution screens without getting blurry (a significant problem with the standard toolbar). I'm only 80% sure of this - I need to confirm it.

[peter-h]

That means that your messy, not updated Windows 10 machine that you got infected browsing pron, is more than capable of finding your firewall-less, antivirus less
Windows 7 machine or VM and infecting it.

And how exactly is win11 better?

If the attacker is running code of his choice on your machine, all bets are off.

[SteveThackery]

Sorry, folks, but just for completeness for those unfamiliar with the ribbon, here is what they look like on a PC.  The blue one is MS Word, the red one is Softmaker Textmaker.





I think the Microsoft one is best, but I like both and TextMaker is my daily driver.

EDIT: A.K. - let us know what you think of the ribbon! 😄

[Randy222]

And how exactly is win11 better?

If the attacker is running code of his choice on your machine, all bets are off.

Depends on who you are asking.
UNC3886, Salt Typhoon, etc, all believe Windoze is the best. 

It is not possible to couple security with productivity in context of end-user experience. End-users (most) only care that the thingy boots and the apps open, print works, browser can get to their fav non-productive sites, they don't care to know how soft the OS really is. On the flip side, if I go heavy on apparmor or selinux config and lockdown the system tight, the ability to install-&-go is not as smooth.

Corp tries to have a balance, and when they are compromised that's when they know they did not pay enough attention to th security side of that seesaw. Home users..........  not a clue.

[Analog Kid]

EDIT: A.K. - let us know what you think of the ribbon! 😄

Glorified fucking toolbar?

[Randy222]

EDIT: A.K. - let us know what you think of the ribbon! 😄

Glorified fucking toolbar?

It's a "MS Productivity Toolbar".