Windows 11 is dying....

[Cyclotron]

I didn't think this was a thread about a superior OS. I thought it was about Windows 11 dying.

Which of course has been proven correct as it will be replaced with Windows 12 as the dominate PC OS in the market.

Windows 100% isn't dying and I do not believe it will die in any of our lifespans.

I'm going to probably have to side with Solaris and BSD as my backup if we want to talk about the superior OS in general. OS2 Warp might be a competitor for that title.

I asked the LLM for its opinion, see images

[SteveThackery]

The OS has nothing to do with the apps you like or dont like or cant find.
Not being able to code (or have a coding team) is a skills issue, not a OS issue.

What a silly thing to say. The whole purpose of an OS is to run apps. The apps are where the work gets done. If the apps that run on a given OS are crap, then there's no point using that OS, no matter how "good" it is as an OS.

I've written my own Windows apps, but only small ones to assist with my research work or for other hobby- or interest-related things. Being but a single resource, it's completely unrealistic to write my own suite of applications.

[SteveThackery]

Windows 100% isn't dying and I do not believe it will die in any of our lifespans.

Absolutely. With 1.4bn Windows installations in the world, Microsoft has 1.4bn "points of presence" in households and businesses all over the globe. There's no way are they going to give that up.

[Randy222]

Windows 100% isn't dying and I do not believe it will die in any of our lifespans.

Absolutely. With 1.4bn Windows installations in the world, Microsoft has 1.4bn "points of presence" in households and businesses all over the globe. There's no way are they going to give that up.

There's approx 3.5bn Linux kernel users, dwarfing Windoze by more than two-fold.

Certainly, with 1.4bn points to manage for profit reasons, will be hard to give up. GNU wasnt about the money, just ask Torvalds. Did he make a mistake? Likely not, the man is 10x more influential than Mycrudsoft will ever be.

[Cyclotron]

Windows 100% isn't dying and I do not believe it will die in any of our lifespans.

Absolutely. With 1.4bn Windows installations in the world, Microsoft has 1.4bn "points of presence" in households and businesses all over the globe. There's no way are they going to give that up.

There's approx 3.5bn Linux kernel users, dwarfing Windoze by more than two-fold.

Certainly, with 1.4bn points to manage for profit reasons, will be hard to give up. GNU wasnt about the money, just ask Torvalds. Did he make a mistake? Likely not, the man is 10x more influential than Mycrudsoft will ever be.

Linux "Kernel users"?  Linux Kernels are everywhere.  Windows Kernels are also in lots of places not exactly obvious. But I don't think the thread is about this.
The Kernel of an OS isn't commonly referred to as an OS. Linux must have something (a boot loader) that brings it online to init 1. systemd  is the most common today to take over to bring the OS up to init 3 (or the like) One might, might claim that kernel + bootloader+ systemd could define OS but I think that's inconsistent with the market that Windows dominates and is the topic.

Windows isn't dying and it isn't in competition with Linux per the data. At least in the desktop computer market, Linux is a very distance 3rd at best. If you consider all the versions of Windows it goes way way back into back of the bus. And then it is worse still because you'd have to break down the Linux OS distributions to determine the next in line. I don't see a reasonable argument that Linux has "X" installs so Windows is dead.  That just doesn't make sense.

[Randy222]

Windows 100% isn't dying and I do not believe it will die in any of our lifespans.

Absolutely. With 1.4bn Windows installations in the world, Microsoft has 1.4bn "points of presence" in households and businesses all over the globe. There's no way are they going to give that up.

There's approx 3.5bn Linux kernel users, dwarfing Windoze by more than two-fold.

Certainly, with 1.4bn points to manage for profit reasons, will be hard to give up. GNU wasnt about the money, just ask Torvalds. Did he make a mistake? Likely not, the man is 10x more influential than Mycrudsoft will ever be.

Linux "Kernel users"?  Linux Kernels are everywhere.  Windows Kernels are also in lots of places not exactly obvious. But I don't think the thread is about this.
The Kernel of an OS isn't commonly referred to as an OS. Linux must have something (a boot loader) that brings it online to init 1. systemd  is the most common today to take over to bring the OS up to init 3 (or the like) One might, might claim that kernel + bootloader+ systemd could define OS but I think that's inconsistent with the market that Windows dominates and is the topic.

Windows isn't dying and it isn't in competition with Linux per the data. At least in the desktop computer market, Linux is a very distance 3rd at best. If you consider all the versions of Windows it goes way way back into back of the bus. And then it is worse still because you'd have to break down the Linux OS distributions to determine the next in line. I don't see a reasonable argument that Linux has "X" installs so Windows is dead.  That just doesn't make sense.

Lets be clear for readers, I never said Windows is dead, or dying. Certainly a pita OS with every new version that comes out, now really F'n it up with integrated Copilot.

Linux has 600+ supported distros, thousands+ other compiled Linux,...... and less the desktop space, dominates everywhere else. Albeit holds a strong 3rd place for the desktop scene. Mobile phone OS, 79% Linux (android), 17% iOS, 4% other, and in other HarmonyOS is very common.

Will Windows ever die on desktop sword, likely not, but if someone like AWS drums up a Linux desktop OS that fully integrates with AWS services, or Gool does with GCP, then perhaps Windows gets an arm and leg cut off. Gool already has Gemini, maybe Bezos buys Anthropic.

[paulca]

The Kernel of an OS isn't commonly referred to as an OS. Linux must have something (a boot loader) that brings it online to init 1. systemd  is the most common today to take over to bring the OS up to init 3 (or the like) One might, might claim that kernel + bootloader+ systemd could define OS but I think that's inconsistent with the market that Windows dominates and is the topic.

You can point the old MBR at the kernel and with nothing else installed "boot" to a command prompt.  No need for anything else.

However, you will experience what an OS without any libraries and tools looks like.  Pretty inert.

If you add "bash" and a basic set of core-utils, then you will be able to mount disks and run applications (assuming they are staticly linked).

[Cyclotron]

Windows 100% isn't dying and I do not believe it will die in any of our lifespans.

Absolutely. With 1.4bn Windows installations in the world, Microsoft has 1.4bn "points of presence" in households and businesses all over the globe. There's no way are they going to give that up.

There's approx 3.5bn Linux kernel users, dwarfing Windoze by more than two-fold.

Certainly, with 1.4bn points to manage for profit reasons, will be hard to give up. GNU wasnt about the money, just ask Torvalds. Did he make a mistake? Likely not, the man is 10x more influential than Mycrudsoft will ever be.

Linux "Kernel users"?  Linux Kernels are everywhere.  Windows Kernels are also in lots of places not exactly obvious. But I don't think the thread is about this.
The Kernel of an OS isn't commonly referred to as an OS. Linux must have something (a boot loader) that brings it online to init 1. systemd  is the most common today to take over to bring the OS up to init 3 (or the like) One might, might claim that kernel + bootloader+ systemd could define OS but I think that's inconsistent with the market that Windows dominates and is the topic.

Windows isn't dying and it isn't in competition with Linux per the data. At least in the desktop computer market, Linux is a very distance 3rd at best. If you consider all the versions of Windows it goes way way back into back of the bus. And then it is worse still because you'd have to break down the Linux OS distributions to determine the next in line. I don't see a reasonable argument that Linux has "X" installs so Windows is dead.  That just doesn't make sense.

Lets be clear for readers, I never said Windows is dead, or dying. Certainly a pita OS with every new version that comes out, now really F'n it up with integrated Copilot.

Linux has 600+ supported distros, thousands+ other compiled Linux,...... and less the desktop space, dominates everywhere else. Albeit holds a strong 3rd place for the desktop scene. Mobile phone OS, 79% Linux (android), 17% iOS, 4% other, and in other HarmonyOS is very common.

Will Windows ever die on desktop sword, likely not, but if someone like AWS drums up a Linux desktop OS that fully integrates with AWS services, or Gool does with GCP, then perhaps Windows gets an arm and leg cut off. Gool already has Gemini, maybe Bezos buys Anthropic.

I think it would be best to clarify what you're communicating, and I appreciate that you've added some context, though I'm not sure how it should be interpreted.

The main thread starts the argument that "Windows 11 is dying". My post was to argue that "Windows" isn't dying, at least any time soon. SteveThackery agreed and posted supporting numbers on the scale.

So you're not arguing that Windows is dead or dying?  You're arguing that you are a fan of Linux and that it's used a lot?  If so, I can say that I'm also a Linux fan, and it's widely used.

[Cyclotron]

The Kernel of an OS isn't commonly referred to as an OS. Linux must have something (a boot loader) that brings it online to init 1. systemd  is the most common today to take over to bring the OS up to init 3 (or the like) One might, might claim that kernel + bootloader+ systemd could define OS but I think that's inconsistent with the market that Windows dominates and is the topic.

You can point the old MBR at the kernel and with nothing else installed "boot" to a command prompt.  No need for anything else.

However, you will experience what an OS without any libraries and tools looks like.  Pretty inert.

If you add "bash" and a basic set of core-utils, then you will be able to mount disks and run applications (assuming they are staticly linked).

I agree, and given we are talking about PCs, UEIF systems, and a kernel compiled with support, can boot without a loader.

I think we are close to agreeing that a Kernel booted isn't an OS, though. Especially given the comparison to Windows user OSes. Windows Embedded is probably as close to a bare kernel.

Kernels just aren't useful without tooling. Something has to make a request or configure them in the case of router or tool.

[SteveThackery]

There's approx 3.5bn Linux kernel users, dwarfing Windoze by more than two-fold.

"Mycrudsoft" - for goodness sake, grow up will you?

Yes, thanks to Android the number of Linux kernels out there is staggering. However, I'm not sure it is a good comparison because Linux has no commercial interest in being in every home. A Linux workstation, or an Android phone, is not seen by Torvalds as a "point of presence" to be exploited commercially, unlike every installation of Windows or MacOS.

[default0.0player]

Android is not Linux, it's very closed compared to most if not all Linux distros. The only openness is to install software using apk and it's about to end this year https://keepandroidopen.org/, after that Android is more closed than Windows. TBH I don't think Android is open than Windows right now, the notorious "Google Play Integrity" is responsible for half of your apps not working if you root your phone.

[Cyclotron]

Android is not Linux, it's very closed compared to most if not all Linux distros. The only openness is to install software using apk and it's about to end this year https://keepandroidopen.org/, after that Android is more closed than Windows. TBH I don't think Android is open than Windows right now, the notorious "Google Play Integrity" is responsible for half of your apps not working if you root your phone.

"Android is not Linux"?  I don't think that simply saying that makes it true. Android can't run without the Linux Kernel, the Linux Kernel is what makes the OS a "Linux OS". Commercialization and open/closeness isn't a metric, that I am aware of, that is recognized.

The fact is, the most successful Linux OS is more closed than Windows. It also spies on people more than Windows by many accounts. The whole company's purpose is to make money from you as you are the product.

In the case of Linux, specifically its most successful iteration, it is far worse than many have called Windows to be.

So why is this thread filled with Linux stuff when the closest competition to Windows is Windows and the next is MacOS? I think that goes to a sub-thread previously discussed in this thread about fanboisim in the Linux community. Could be wrong though.

I use MacOS as my daily driver and iOS as my mobile.  I got there by way of company owned devices but stay there because of friction. I simply do not see an advantage to switching either PC os or mobile. I have a whole lot of hardware and VMs running all sorts of OSes.  They all have a purpose.

[SteveThackery]

I simply do not see an advantage to switching either PC os or mobile. I have a whole lot of hardware and VMs running all sorts of OSes.  They all have a purpose.

I agree. The OS is secondary - the work you do gets done in the applications, and it is always the app ecosystem that determines which OS I use.

[PlainName]

The fact is, the most successful Linux OS is more closed than Windows. It also spies on people more than Windows by many accounts. The whole company's purpose is to make money from you as you are the product.

In the case of Linux, specifically its most successful iteration, it is far worse than many have called Windows to be.

That's a good point to consider.

[Randy222]

I simply do not see an advantage to switching either PC os or mobile. I have a whole lot of hardware and VMs running all sorts of OSes.  They all have a purpose.

I agree. The OS is secondary - the work you do gets done in the applications, and it is always the app ecosystem that determines which OS I use.

Pandering instead of demanding. That's the issue.
If the app you need is Windoze only, then demand the vendor compile a version for a common Linux distro, or even MacOS would be better.
And to size it up, there are very few things done on Windows that cannot be done on Linux using alternatives. There are certainly some specialty apps that are Windoze only, but that's probably fringe custom stuff with a small audience. If that's your app, then so be it, vendor should have made it for the better OS.

Can you give us some examples of an app that is made only for Windows that is a must have for your work?

[PlainName]

Can you give us some examples of an app that is made only for Windows that is a must have for your work?

Why does it have to be about work? I really, REALLY dislike mushrooms, but 'work' doesn't factor into whether I eat the damn things or not.

[SteveThackery]

Can you give us some examples of an app that is made only for Windows that is a must have for your work?

I'm reluctant to go round this loop again as people will have read enough already about my thoughts on Linux applications. To summarise, I find most Linux apps to be clunky, ugly, old-fashioned, and generally like they were written 30 years ago. I also note that they very rarely get a ground-up rework when they desperately need it; there is a tendency to bolt new features on anywhere they will fit, which leads to messy UIs, obscure workflows, and an application that only its developers find easy to use.

There is rarely a commercial imperative to polish a Linux application, because in general nobody makes much money from them. Contrast this with Adobe, for example, who work hard and continuously to keep their applications at the top of the pile. There's just no realistic way that a small bunch of volunteers can compete with a commercial juggernaut like Adobe.

Even though I have a slight preference for Zorin over W11, I just don't enjoy using a Linux desktop machine because I find the applications too clunky and ugly. It is important to me that I actually enjoy using my tools - both software tools and workshop tools.

Anyway, that's it. I'm not going to comment further because all this has been done to death in other threads.

[Cyclotron]

It looks like Microsoft has been watching this thread. Windows will have update options.
Pause Windows updates indefinitely and avoid forced restarts

Of course this change will itself require an update.

[madires]

I don't think so. It's a quite common issue Windows users complain about.

[Randy222]

Windows may not be dying the traditional way, but in other ways it may be.

France govt is ditching Windows 100% in favor of Linux for everything !
They get all the same functionality for way less money, depending on if the buy a support program or not.

[soldar]

Windows may not be dying the traditional way, but in other ways it may be.

France govt is ditching Windows 100% in favor of Linux for everything !
They get all the same functionality for way less money, depending on if the buy a support program or not.

I think this is a mistake and the EU should have developed an EU-wide version of Linux for use of all EU governments. But the EU is slowly disappearing and dissolving.

Similarly, China has developed its own Linux-based operating systems to reduce reliance on foreign technology like Windows.

[Randy222]

Windows may not be dying the traditional way, but in other ways it may be.

France govt is ditching Windows 100% in favor of Linux for everything !
They get all the same functionality for way less money, depending on if the buy a support program or not.

I think this is a mistake and the EU should have developed an EU-wide version of Linux for use of all EU governments. But the EU is slowly disappearing and dissolving.

Similarly, China has developed its own Linux-based operating systems to reduce reliance on foreign technology like Windows.

Well, is it the UK who decided they will ban all portable device cables that are not usb-c, because they want to reduce cables that go into the landfill? That region for some reason makes decisions that do not make sense.

If France goes Red Hat for support reasons, then they at least get a well supported distro. I know some local govt places that use debian for servers and rely on community for support/updates. Be interesting to know what cloud services France uses, be kinda funny if they are in on Azure.

That said, Windows is in the crunch due to costs.

[soldar]

Well, is it the UK who decided they will ban all portable device cables that are not usb-c, because they want to reduce cables that go into the landfill? That region for some reason makes decisions that do not make sense.

If France goes Red Hat for support reasons, then they at least get a well supported distro. I know some local govt places that use debian for servers and rely on community for support/updates. Be interesting to know what cloud services France uses, be kinda funny if they are in on Azure.

That said, Windows is in the crunch due to costs.

I don't know what the UK has done but the EU mandated USB-C cables at the end of 2024.

Regarding Linux I believe the EU should have formed a study group and developed a standard Linux distro suited for all EU countries. That would have saved costs and promoted compatibility and interoperability.

China, for obvious reasons has developed their own versions of Linux and the EU should have done the same.

[Randy222]

Yeah, EU on the cables, I typed UK. my bad.

France can certainly build their own Linux version, but why do that, they'll still bundle in community stuff to make it work to their liking.
I might perhaps re-compile kernel to my liking, but do that for an existing distro.

Try doing any of that with Windows.

[Cyclotron]

I hope France's people hold their politicians feet to the fire to make prove the ROI and benefits. But they won't.

France will just build a large bureaucracy and fiefdoms around moving to Linux.

Moving to Linux from Windows has nothing whatsoever to do with migrating their data out of the reach of the US which they claim is the reason. They will pay the Windows tax when they buy the hardware anyway unless they put out a bid for hardware specifically without Windows licenses and that's likely to be more expensive that the generic hardware that comes with it.   

On top of that, they will likely license something from MS which always comes bundled with licenses anyway. But the good news is they can buy support from IBM for RedHat. Which really tosses it in the face of US company MS.  Maybe they will build their own distro like the Chinese have.  That would be awesome. I have jokes about that but it is likely inappropriate.