Author Topic: ‘Male’ and ‘female’ plugs and connectors – gendered language  (Read 35478 times)

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Offline bsfeechannel

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Re: ‘Male’ and ‘female’ plugs and connectors – gendered language
« Reply #150 on: September 09, 2026, 12:03:02 pm »
Just don't call a young German woman "Fräulein" (also grammatically neutral due to the -lein):  that is considered pretty disrespectful in modern German  :)

I've never. In fact, the equivalent of Fräulein in other languages (which retain the grammatical feminine gender) has also fallen into disuse, but as it happened with Fräulein, the reason is that it carries a distinction of marital status that doesn't make sense in the modern social context.
 
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Offline dcrookston

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Re: ‘Male’ and ‘female’ plugs and connectors – gendered language
« Reply #151 on: September 09, 2026, 12:17:00 pm »
In this case it's simply explained as a "narcissistic insult". i.e. asserting one's non-submissivness by refusing to acknowledge a narcisstic dogma. (or glorification refusal)
In classic religions, it's called "blasphemy". In various ideologies it evolved into X-ism, Y-phobia and a few other words.

A normal person doesn't react to mis-gendering, mis-aging etc. as if his life was threatened.

Do you also refuse to call someone Jim if their given name is James?  Calling someone what they want to be called is widely considered simple decency.  Refusing to do so generally seems to be associated with some degree of antagonism toward the person who is making the request.
 
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Offline tszaboo

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Re: ‘Male’ and ‘female’ plugs and connectors – gendered language
« Reply #152 on: September 09, 2026, 12:22:26 pm »
In this case it's simply explained as a "narcissistic insult". i.e. asserting one's non-submissivness by refusing to acknowledge a narcisstic dogma. (or glorification refusal)
In classic religions, it's called "blasphemy". In various ideologies it evolved into X-ism, Y-phobia and a few other words.

A normal person doesn't react to mis-gendering, mis-aging etc. as if his life was threatened.

Do you also refuse to call someone Jim if their given name is James?  Calling someone what they want to be called is widely considered simple decency.  Refusing to do so generally seems to be associated with some degree of antagonism toward the person who is making the request.
Do you call someone doctor, if  they didn't receive formal education in medicine, but they feel like a doctor?
Do how about king? Can someone unilaterally declare himself a king, and you are supposed to play along?
If James tells you that he wishes to be called a slur, or MZ/X, you would tell him no.

Your entity in society is always negotiated, and you cannot just change it if you feel like it.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2026, 12:24:34 pm by tszaboo »
 
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Offline Cyclotron

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Re: ‘Male’ and ‘female’ plugs and connectors – gendered language
« Reply #153 on: September 09, 2026, 01:32:44 pm »
In this case it's simply explained as a "narcissistic insult". i.e. asserting one's non-submissivness by refusing to acknowledge a narcisstic dogma. (or glorification refusal)
In classic religions, it's called "blasphemy". In various ideologies it evolved into X-ism, Y-phobia and a few other words.

A normal person doesn't react to mis-gendering, mis-aging etc. as if his life was threatened.

Do you also refuse to call someone Jim if their given name is James?  Calling someone what they want to be called is widely considered simple decency.  Refusing to do so generally seems to be associated with some degree of antagonism toward the person who is making the request.

Parroting this ol' bad argument?  It may seem on the surface to be logical but you'd be wrong.

Names are proper nouns chosen arbitrarily to designate an individual, whereas pronouns in standard English are closed-class grammatical markers tied to perceived biological sex.

While calling someone "Jim" does not imply any broader ontological claim, using cross-gender or nonbinary pronouns forces the speaker to implicitly validate a specific concept of gender identity. 
 

Offline pdenisowski

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Re: ‘Male’ and ‘female’ plugs and connectors – gendered language
« Reply #154 on: September 09, 2026, 03:08:52 pm »
In fact, the equivalent of Fräulein in other languages (which retain the grammatical feminine gender) has also fallen into disuse, but as it happened with Fräulein, the reason is that it carries a distinction of marital status that doesn't make sense in the modern social context.

This is certainly true of the Polish word "panna" for a young unmarried woman.  There are some cases where it's still used (e.g. Najświętsza Maryja Panna - the Most Holy Virgin Mary), but I would definitely never use it to address a young woman these days.
Test and Measurement Fundamentals video series on the Rohde & Schwarz YouTube channel:  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKxVoO5jUTlvsVtDcqrVn0ybqBVlLj2z8
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: ‘Male’ and ‘female’ plugs and connectors – gendered language
« Reply #155 on: September 09, 2026, 03:18:45 pm »
 ;D
In fact, the equivalent of Fräulein in other languages (which retain the grammatical feminine gender) has also fallen into disuse, but as it happened with Fräulein, the reason is that it carries a distinction of marital status that doesn't make sense in the modern social context.

This is certainly true of the Polish word "panna" for a young unmarried woman.  There are some cases where it's still used (e.g. Najświętsza Maryja Panna - the Most Holy Virgin Mary), but I would definitely never use it to address a young woman these days.

I assume this is parallel to the German noun “Jungfrau”, literally “young woman” but used in secular and religious contexts as is the English noun “virgin”.
 

Offline HuronKing

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Re: ‘Male’ and ‘female’ plugs and connectors – gendered language
« Reply #156 on: September 09, 2026, 03:25:42 pm »
That and the fact that people (mis)take analogies for political statements. The use of words like male,female, master and slave are analogies. They do not deny the political implications of these terms in their original contexts, but don't bring them to what should be a strict technical description.

Right. "Master" and "Slave" applied to non-human things like electronic devices is OK because they have no rights and are not subject to human laws and feelings. So there certainly can be Masters ans Slaves in the world of inanimate objects. They have no feelings and no choice in the matter of these names.

The whole point of an analogy is that it draws specific parallels between two things. You *have* to think about the context of the first thing in the analogy to understand how it makes any sense applying it to the second thing.

I could use the term "Warden/Prisoner" for my analogy... but surely we aren't so dense as to be unable to see why that analogy could be tasteless (although in the US it might still be better lol)? Electronic devices have no feelings... but people do... and these terms are meant to communicate things to people. And that will all be context dependent. The USA, for example, has race-based slavery deeply embedded into its national history (our only civil war was fought over it). That won't carry the same connotations to people from, say, France or China or Japan.

Being tactful in presenting technological information to your audience is the same reason image processors have stopped using Lena/Lenna as a test reference image. To me, personally, it was just a photo of a woman in a hat (for a long time I didn't even know where it came from - I thought it looked like a fashion magazine).

But I have talked to women engineers in my classes who told me about how they were uncomfortable using a cropped pornographic image for studying image processing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenna

The attitudes and languages we adopt affect whether students and newcomers feel welcome in the classroom - whether they belong. We've been observing this since 1999 at least.
https://www.cs.umd.edu/users/oleary/faculty/node8.html
« Last Edit: September 09, 2026, 03:31:52 pm by HuronKing »
 
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Online negativ3

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Re: ‘Male’ and ‘female’ plugs and connectors – gendered language
« Reply #157 on: September 09, 2026, 03:34:48 pm »
Luckily, whether my Molex was made in Mexico or China has little effect on its form/fit or function.
I'm not talking about the grey market brolex connectors which can be had cheaply with dubious materials and tolerances.
 

Offline Cyclotron

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Re: ‘Male’ and ‘female’ plugs and connectors – gendered language
« Reply #158 on: September 09, 2026, 04:13:32 pm »
The concept of language modification or use/nonuse of items such as the Lena image to make people "comfortable" are fair on the surface only.

"Comfort" obviously is subjective and apt to change rapidly. My wife illustrates that by the sudden changes in the thermostat in our home.
And similar to modern societies dramatic changes in language for comfort, it is irrelevant what makes me comfortable.

In my travels, the issues of these language and selective comforting are efforts are dramatically only from those of Western European decent and event then predominately English speaking. Of course, this is my single perspective and I'm interested if others share it or, more interestingly if you've seen such activities from other origins and languages in practice.

 

Offline HuronKing

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Re: ‘Male’ and ‘female’ plugs and connectors – gendered language
« Reply #159 on: September 09, 2026, 05:01:20 pm »
The concept of language modification or use/nonuse of items such as the Lena image to make people "comfortable" are fair on the surface only.

The women I have educated in my classrooms beg to differ. If I am responsible for educating someone in engineering, and they ask, 'could we not use the cropped porn picture to talk about image processing, please?'... I don't think that is an unreasonable ask lol. And pretty much ALL of the world's engineering journals agreed - not just ones in the US or that speak English.

I personally think discontinuing Lenna is one of the easiest low-hanging fruit things you can do to make a particular niche branch of engineering more welcoming to women... but the fact it was even controversial shows... something...  :-//

Quote
"Comfort" obviously is subjective and apt to change rapidly. My wife illustrates that by the sudden changes in the thermostat in our home.
And similar to modern societies dramatic changes in language for comfort, it is irrelevant what makes me comfortable.

Correct - society changes. It is still within living memory that bathrooms were segregated by race in the US.
 

Offline asmi

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Re: ‘Male’ and ‘female’ plugs and connectors – gendered language
« Reply #160 on: September 09, 2026, 07:02:08 pm »
The women I have educated in my classrooms beg to differ. If I am responsible for educating someone in engineering, and they ask, 'could we not use the cropped porn picture to talk about image processing, please?'... I don't think that is an unreasonable ask lol. And pretty much ALL of the world's engineering journals agreed - not just ones in the US or that speak English.
That is totally unreasonable, because real engineers don't look at Lenna as a photo of a woman, but merely as a data set. And they can't have any preference over using some datasets but not others - they don't get to decide it, but are supposed to work with whatever they are given. And so teaching aspiring engineers about that impartiality is super important, while yielding to these unreasonable demands will produce "engineers" who would complain about your PCB routing because a picture of traces reminds them of something unpleasant.

Offline Cyclotron

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Re: ‘Male’ and ‘female’ plugs and connectors – gendered language
« Reply #161 on: September 09, 2026, 09:14:40 pm »
The concept of language modification or use/nonuse of items such as the Lena image to make people "comfortable" are fair on the surface only.

The women I have educated in my classrooms beg to differ. If I am responsible for educating someone in engineering, and they ask, 'could we not use the cropped porn picture to talk about image processing, please?'... I don't think that is an unreasonable ask lol. And pretty much ALL of the world's engineering journals agreed - not just ones in the US or that speak English.

I personally think discontinuing Lenna is one of the easiest low-hanging fruit things you can do to make a particular niche branch of engineering more welcoming to women... but the fact it was even controversial shows... something...  :-//

Quote
"Comfort" obviously is subjective and apt to change rapidly. My wife illustrates that by the sudden changes in the thermostat in our home.
And similar to modern societies dramatic changes in language for comfort, it is irrelevant what makes me comfortable.

Correct - society changes. It is still within living memory that bathrooms were segregated by race in the US.

I educate engineers at work (including females) as well as mentor a 50% young female robotics team. I believe most would be insulted to have such topic brought up because you're just treating them differently and making a spectacle out of their gender which, if you understand anything about the female psychology would know is a substantial fear. If you have ever openly spoken of the topic in class it is almost certainly caused harm. If you've had a student speak to you about a concern in private that's another matter.

My robotics team are pretty happy that we have achieved and maintain a near 50% ratio of genders. Recent years its closer to 60% females to boys with one of recent females joining the NASA moon lander team and one joining the Toyota vehicle safety team.  You know what we don't do?  We don't worry about them like they need to be protected. We don't try to protect the girls, we just demand everyone respect one another and that's enough. They are challenged and treated as equal participants.

And if you didn't know, modern young females show significant opposition to being treated negatively about their sexuality or others of their genders' choices related to sexuality.

It appears that you and your student feel Lena is somehow less of a person because she modeled in the nude. I would suggest you reconsider. There's nothing wrong with Lena making her own choices.  Forsén worked for a government agency supervising disabled employees, archiving data using computers and scanners after she left modeling. She worked in and with the same technology that featured her photo for tests. If she or the copyright holder had issues with the use then there's a reason to have concerns.

I understand that modeling of men and women have an possible problem with objectification. But that is equal across the genders. If you had a model image of a male or female in the example image even if clothed it would be possible to consider it objectification. So if such is a problem, no images of humans can be used for printing tests.

WTF? I don't know how twisted you'd have to be to get from using a modeling photo in a test print to segregation. It boggles the mind. Could you have chosen something more orthogonal?  I doubt it. But blow your dog whistle and race bait if you like.

Don't treat women in your classes like you need to protect them. They are perfectly capable.  Of course if a woman or man ask you for help then help but don't help them because you think you need to. If you are helping because you feel good about it, its likely not the right motivation.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2026, 09:21:24 pm by Cyclotron »
 

Offline jnk0le

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Re: ‘Male’ and ‘female’ plugs and connectors – gendered language
« Reply #162 on: September 10, 2026, 12:37:53 am »
Do you call someone doctor, if  they didn't receive formal education in medicine, but they feel like a doctor?



Do you also refuse to call someone Jim if their given name is James?  Calling someone what they want to be called is widely considered simple decency.  Refusing to do so generally seems to be associated with some degree of antagonism toward the person who is making the request.
Softened names is a common thing and it doesn't violate your grammar. And when official name gets used, that person doesn't get immediately corrected and pressured until yield.


You never heard of gender dysphoria?
That's a real thing, not a construct taught in a course on postmodernism or whatever.

Not terribly common (1-2%?) but it does exist.

1% is probably overstated by just observing around. Unless they are heavily concencrated in some environments.

There is also a thing called "body integrity dysphoria".
Excluding insurance frauds and sexual ones, it's explained as: "if she doesn't cut off her legs, she won't be happy". Sounds familiar?

But none of you are going to say that the only way to cure BID is "correction of the body". Do you?

There is also much less of them. By proxy version is an unicorn to find. Why? They are simply not receiving as much "support" (love bombing) as their gender equivalents.



Typically it's Münchhausen syndrome.
I don’t think you have any basis on which to make such a claim.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factitious_disorder_imposed_on_self
Quote
individual imitates symptoms of illness in order to elicit attention, sympathy, or physical care.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder
Quote
Vulnerable, thin-skinned individuals with NPD also show entitlement, selfishness and low empathy, but uniquely, they demonstrate feelings of shame and inferiority, are envious of others' abilities or status, tend to be shy, paranoid, vindictive, and emotionally dependent on admiration, and show extreme rage and hostility in response to rejection and criticism.[11] This behavior stems from low self-esteem, a need for admiration and validation, and social belonging.

i.e. what makes them "happy" is the "support" (love bombing) they receive after each step of transition. (belonging to a wider group in addition) Then a sunken cost fallacy (they are pretending to be "happy") and survivorship bias (you don't see unhappy ones from obvious reasons)
 

Offline Andy Chee

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Re: ‘Male’ and ‘female’ plugs and connectors – gendered language
« Reply #163 on: September 10, 2026, 05:59:26 am »

There is also a thing called "body integrity dysphoria".
Excluding insurance frauds and sexual ones, it's explained as: "if she doesn't cut off her legs, she won't be happy". Sounds familiar?

But none of you are going to say that the only way to cure BID is "correction of the body". Do you?
I recall watching another version of the rubber hand illusion where they used thermal cameras, and the real arm/hand dropped in temperature.





 

Offline HuronKing

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Re: ‘Male’ and ‘female’ plugs and connectors – gendered language
« Reply #164 on: September 10, 2026, 03:21:56 pm »
The women I have educated in my classrooms beg to differ. If I am responsible for educating someone in engineering, and they ask, 'could we not use the cropped porn picture to talk about image processing, please?'... I don't think that is an unreasonable ask lol. And pretty much ALL of the world's engineering journals agreed - not just ones in the US or that speak English.
That is totally unreasonable, because real engineers don't look at Lenna as a photo of a woman, but merely as a data set. And they can't have any preference over using some datasets but not others - they don't get to decide it, but are supposed to work with whatever they are given. And so teaching aspiring engineers about that impartiality is super important, while yielding to these unreasonable demands will produce "engineers" who would complain about your PCB routing because a picture of traces reminds them of something unpleasant.

The original engineers who happened upon it picked it because they were partial to its aesthetics over their stock of standard test images. And besides - many major publications (IEEE, Nature, and the Journal of Modern Optics) have agreed at this point that continuing to use Lenna as a standard test image over other images is bad practice for technical and ethical reasons. In the case of Lenna, the burden of proof exists on people who insist on using the image as to WHY it is scientifically the ONLY image that can demonstrate their point. Even the journals carve out this exception... and no one uses it anymore because there is no scientific reason to use it in preference over other test images. That ship has sailed.

If I have a choice between two equivalent data sets for testing, one that creates a hostile working environment and one that doesn't... why the hell would I purposefully choose to use the offensive one? You think that's unreasonable?

But, I do want to address something else. Teaching engineers to pay no attention to the aesthetics is not good either - and the world abounds with case studies. For example, this teapot:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_teapot

I am certain the engineers who designed it did not knowingly set out to make it look like that. I am certain they paid very close attention to impartially analyzing the data and metrics for designing a functionally good teapot. Yet, their product was an absolute failure because the design reminded people of something unpleasant - as you put it. Maybe someone should've complained about it before it went into production...

Finally, this statement of yours is not in alignment with industry practices:
Quote
And they can't have any preference over using some datasets but not others - they don't get to decide it, but are supposed to work with whatever they are given.

Engineers are absolutely taught and expected to have consideration for the ethical acquisition and usage of datasets. This is something that is standard across industry in the private and public sectors:
https://www.snowflake.com/en/data-governance/policy/data-ethics/

Quote
Data ethics is the application of moral principles to decisions about how data is collected, stored, used and shared. It gives a governance program its values layer, helping teams decide not only what is legally required, but what is appropriate, proportionate and accountable when data moves through analytics, AI and business workflows. By translating ethical commitments into governance policies and platform controls, organizations can use data more confidently while reducing the risk of harm.

https://resources.data.gov/assets/documents/fds-data-ethics-framework.pdf
Quote
Federal Data Ethics Tenets help federal data users make decisions ethically and promote accountability throughout the data lifecycle—as data are acquired, processed, disseminated, used, stored and disposed. Regardless of data type or use, those working with data in the public sector should have a foundational understanding of the Data Ethics Tenets. Federal leaders should also foster a data ethics-driven culture and lead by example.

No engineer is under a carte blanche obligation to analyze data that is acquired or used unethically.

This isn't a hypothetical thing just about whether it is ethical to use the Lenna image. One of the big issues we all know facing the AI Industry is the ethical acquisition and usage of training data scrubbed from the Internet. In terms of ethics, an engineer is absolutely supposed to have preference for a dataset that is not stolen versus one that is...

They're not unrelated things - whether an engineer uses a copyrighted cropped pornographic photo as a test image or whether an engineer uses stolen data to train their AI model is all driven from the same core principles of engineering ethics.

https://www.ieee.org/about/corporate/governance/p7-8
 
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Offline asmi

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Re: ‘Male’ and ‘female’ plugs and connectors – gendered language
« Reply #165 on: September 10, 2026, 03:43:48 pm »
The original engineers who happened upon it picked it because they were partial to its aesthetics over their stock of standard test images. And besides - many major publications (IEEE, Nature, and the Journal of Modern Optics) have agreed at this point that continuing to use Lenna as a standard test image over other images is bad practice for technical and ethical reasons. In the case of Lenna, the burden of proof exists on people who insist on using the image as to WHY it is scientifically the ONLY image that can demonstrate their point. Even the journals carve out this exception... and no one uses it anymore because there is no scientific reason to use it in preference over other test images. That ship has sailed.
That's because these places are not ran by engineers, but by folks who bow to SJW crap. I don't know of a single practicing engineer who reads this crap.

If I have a choice between two equivalent data sets for testing, one that creates a hostile working environment and one that doesn't... why the hell would I purposefully choose to use the offensive one? You think that's unreasonable?
Data can NOT possibly create hostile environment, because it's just data. It doesn't have any agenda, or meaning, beyond being a set of bits used for specific purposes.

But, I do want to address something else. Teaching engineers to pay no attention to the aesthetics is not good either - and the world abounds with case studies. For example, this teapot:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_teapot

<wall of nonsense skipped>
This is exactly why real practicing engineers hate academia. Academia folks live in their own fantasy bubble and are completely divorced from real world outside of that bubble. Which is why there is always a shock when newly graduated engineers comes into the real industry and sees that real world works nowhere like they were taught in the academia.

Let me tell you how real world works. When a customer gives you data to test algorithms/systems/whatever that you developed for him, you don't ask where did he get this data, you do what you're asked to do. If I were to ask about the source of data my customers are giving me, the best outcome they would think I've gone insane, and the worst they would still think I've gone insane, but they will also take their business elsewhere and recommend that others in their circle do the same.

It's the same way with science. Scientist does not get to pick experiment results which he likes - he has to work with all valid results regardless of how he feels about them. But thanks to SJW morons and some financing from... hmm..."interested parties" we now have an entire generation of pseudo-scientists and pseudo-engineers who think that emotions do matter in their work, and they can throw away whatever data/results they don't like - or which go against their hypothesis/expected result. I really hope society will find it in it to throw all those idiots from academia and forbid them from getting anywhere close to educational and scientific organizations, so that we can return to real science and engineering, when results matter, and not your feeling about them.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2026, 03:45:29 pm by asmi »
 

Offline HuronKing

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Re: ‘Male’ and ‘female’ plugs and connectors – gendered language
« Reply #166 on: September 10, 2026, 03:53:01 pm »
WTF? I don't know how twisted you'd have to be to get from using a modeling photo in a test print to segregation. It boggles the mind. Could you have chosen something more orthogonal?  I doubt it. But blow your dog whistle and race bait if you like.

Most of what you wrote doesn't have anything to do with what I said or how I said it has come up in discussions with my students (you have an entirely imagined scenario about how these conversations have gone over the years that I don't think would be productive for me to recap line by line...). I do commend you on your mentorship efforts with your robotics teams. But I want to address this - because you may have misunderstood the flow of what I was saying.  :)

I was initially responding to xrunner who said,
Quote
Right. "Master" and "Slave" applied to non-human things like electronic devices is OK because they have no rights and are not subject to human laws and feelings. So there certainly can be Masters ans Slaves in the world of inanimate objects. They have no feelings and no choice in the matter of these names.

I said analogies only make sense because they make SPECIFIC REFERENCE between two things. I said that the 'master/slave' analogy is a bigger problem in the USA because of its history with race-based slavery. That's not a dog whistle or a racebait... its a fact, man.

I then said that, in the same vein as using different analogies than 'master/slave', in general trying to be more tactful and ethical in presenting technical information is the reason Lenna has been discontinued.

Since, I think, I'm the first one to mention Lenna in this thread, I took your post as a direct response. I actually *agree* with you that language modification happens as society changes - even if it lags behind. I also reiterate that I *agree* with you that these language modifications are very region dependent - far fewer people care about the 'master/slave' thing outside the USA.

I disagree that these modifications are "fair on the surface only" - as you put it. I think these modifications can have meaningful impacts on creating more welcoming environments and promote better engineering discourse. Because for some of these cases (like the 'master/slave' thing which I apologize you might have missed was what I was talking about) - there is real pain associated with these terms because of still recent history of racial segregation in the US... and I think we can and have come up with better, more precise, technical terms to describe the same functions.

Obviously just adjusting terminology or discontinuing the use of one test photo *could* stop as surface only gestures. The same way major corporations virtue signal during different times of the years while still harming the causes they say they're promoting. But, as an individual, it is one of the first and easiest steps towards treating other people just a little better - we can always do more.  :)

PS
I will add that discourse in the USA has a disproportionate impact on the global community because so much technology literature is based in the USA and, lets face it, the USA has a tremendous political and social influence globally and the USA has a recent tendency to make ITS problems the problems of other people. Hmm, I think the term for that is 'cultural imperialism.'  >:D
« Last Edit: September 10, 2026, 04:21:05 pm by HuronKing »
 
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Offline HuronKing

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Re: ‘Male’ and ‘female’ plugs and connectors – gendered language
« Reply #167 on: September 10, 2026, 04:13:33 pm »
That's because these places are not ran by engineers, but by folks who bow to SJW crap. I don't know of a single practicing engineer who reads this crap.

Well, now you can say you've met one because I do practice and I do read this and I go to some of these conferences and meet lots of other engineers doing cutting edge research who read this crap. You need to get out more.  ;)
 
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Offline Zero999

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Re: ‘Male’ and ‘female’ plugs and connectors – gendered language
« Reply #168 on: September 10, 2026, 05:16:43 pm »
A lot of nonsense has been spouted in this thread. I suspect some of it is pushed by academic institutions and the mainstream media, which results in many people absorbing it without questioning it.

Race is a social construct. No it isn't.

If race is a social construct than why is it:

More often than not, most people can identify the race of another person based on genetically inherited physical attributes?

One can send of a DNA sample and find out the races of their ancestors?

A blood/tissue recipient will have a better outcome if the donor of the same race?

Some races have a greater likelihood of contracting certain diseases, i.e. skin cancer, sickle cell, due to genetic predisposition?

And ethnicity is synonymous with race, although nowadays it tends to be used for more closely related groups of people, rather than to distinguish between those with ancestors on different continents, especially in the USA.

Gender is also not a social construct. Gender is society's expectations and stereotypes of a person, based on their biological sex. If biology is disconnected from gender, then the word gender becomes a circular definition, devoid of real meaning.

Question "What is a a woman?". Answer "Someone who identifies as a woman."

Question "How does one know that they are a woman." Answer "Because  they identify as a woman!".

Now assume gender is linked to sex and it becomes simple.

Question "What is a woman?". Answer "An adult human female."

Questions " Isn't that transphobic? What about transwomen?" Answers "Transwomen are biological males, who wish to be treated by society as though they are female. No it isn't transphobic. It is a fact."

Lastly if gender is really a social construct, then no one would be in favour of physical medical treatments for anyone.

Transpeople believe they are born in the wrong body or have gender dysphoria. Not in all cases. Some might believe they are in the wrong body or have gender dysphoria, but this is not necessarily the case. Many just believe they don't fit the socially expected stereotype associated with their biological sex. Distinguishing between the two is important when it comes to medicine and is one of the reasons why surgery and hormone treatments are controversial.

Finally there definitely are cases of some people, almost exclusively men, identifying as the opposite sex for nefarious reasons i.e. autogynephilia. It's a minority and this fact has used by those who want to persecute transpeople, but it's doesn't change the fact that it is the case. There are plenty of videos by trans identifying males on social media which demonstrate this. It is why concerns surrounding separate sex sports and changing facilities valid.
 

Online negativ3

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Re: ‘Male’ and ‘female’ plugs and connectors – gendered language
« Reply #169 on: September 10, 2026, 05:37:35 pm »
A lot of nonsense has been spouted in this thread. I suspect some of it is pushed by academic institutions and the mainstream media, which results in many people absorbing it without questioning it.

Race is a social construct. No it isn't.

If race is a social construct than why is it:

More often than not, most people can identify the race of another person based on genetically inherited physical attributes?

One can send of a DNA sample and find out the races of their ancestors?

A blood/tissue recipient will have a better outcome if the donor of the same race?

Some races have a greater likelihood of contracting certain diseases, i.e. skin cancer, sickle cell, due to genetic predisposition?

And ethnicity is synonymous with race, although nowadays it tends to be used for more closely related groups of people, rather than to distinguish between those with ancestors on different continents, especially in the USA.

Gender is also not a social construct. Gender is society's expectations and stereotypes of a person, based on their biological sex. If biology is disconnected from gender, then the word gender becomes a circular definition, devoid of real meaning.

Question "What is a a woman?". Answer "Someone who identifies as a woman."

Question "How does one know that they are a woman." Answer "Because  they identify as a woman!".

Now assume gender is linked to sex and it becomes simple.

Question "What is a woman?". Answer "An adult human female."

Questions " Isn't that transphobic? What about transwomen?" Answers "Transwomen are biological males, who wish to be treated by society as though they are female. No it isn't transphobic. It is a fact."

Lastly if gender is really a social construct, then no one would be in favour of physical medical treatments for anyone.

Transpeople believe they are born in the wrong body or have gender dysphoria. Not in all cases. Some might believe they are in the wrong body or have gender dysphoria, but this is not necessarily the case. Many just believe they don't fit the socially expected stereotype associated with their biological sex. Distinguishing between the two is important when it comes to medicine and is one of the reasons why surgery and hormone treatments are controversial.

Finally there definitely are cases of some people, almost exclusively men, identifying as the opposite sex for nefarious reasons i.e. autogynephilia. It's a minority and this fact has used by those who want to persecute transpeople, but it's doesn't change the fact that it is the case. There are plenty of videos by trans identifying males on social media which demonstrate this. It is why concerns surrounding separate sex sports and changing facilities valid.

By prescribing chemical castration medication to kids under the guise of puberty blockers was and still remains the bridge way too far. A single child being affected for life is the result of such experimentation and all those involved should be... I'll leave it there. They've been on jury duty recently.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: ‘Male’ and ‘female’ plugs and connectors – gendered language
« Reply #170 on: September 10, 2026, 05:48:09 pm »
By prescribing chemical castration medication to kids under the guise of puberty blockers was and still remains the bridge way too far. A single child being affected for life is the result of such experimentation and all those involved should be... I'll leave it there. They've been on jury duty recently.
Agreed. I really wanted to avoid talking about that, but it's true.

There should even be more safeguards for adults, because there are legitimate concerns surrounding these treatments.

Heck, I'm pretty liberal when it comes to this in many respects. Gender non-conforming people have existed throughout human history. Some societies have been more tolerant than others. In tribes, the odd boy who wanted to perform woman's work i.e. picking berries, was allowed to do so, as was a woman who preferred to do men's work such as hunting, so long as they were good at it. Then there's the third gender, which is a nuanced topic. All societies which had/have a third gender acknowledge them to be either biologically male or female, just that they are don't fit the typical male/female binary in terms of male or female characteristics. Barbaric societies who castrated boys aside, it is only recently the idea of physical treatments for gender non-conforming people has been accepted.
 

Offline asmi

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Re: ‘Male’ and ‘female’ plugs and connectors – gendered language
« Reply #171 on: September 10, 2026, 05:56:42 pm »
By prescribing chemical castration medication to kids under the guise of puberty blockers was and still remains the bridge way too far. A single child being affected for life is the result of such experimentation and all those involved should be... I'll leave it there. They've been on jury duty recently.
Yeah. If somebody wants to maim their own body due to their own beliefs and is being competent to make such decision (meaning they understand consequences and accept risks) - they can chop off their own heads for all I care, but leave children out of it!

Online negativ3

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Re: ‘Male’ and ‘female’ plugs and connectors – gendered language
« Reply #172 on: September 10, 2026, 05:59:20 pm »
By prescribing chemical castration medication to kids under the guise of puberty blockers was and still remains the bridge way too far. A single child being affected for life is the result of such experimentation and all those involved should be... I'll leave it there. They've been on jury duty recently.
Agreed. I really wanted to avoid talking about that, but it's true.

There should even be more safeguards for adults, because there are legitimate concerns surrounding these treatments.

Heck, I'm pretty liberal when it comes to this in many respects. Gender non-conforming people have existed throughout human history. Some societies have been more tolerant than others. In tribes, the odd boy who wanted to perform woman's work i.e. picking berries, was allowed to do so, as was a woman who preferred to do men's work such as hunting, so long as they were good at it. Then there's the third gender, which is a nuanced topic. All societies which had/have a third gender acknowledge them to be either biologically male or female, just that they are don't fit the typical male/female binary in terms of male or female characteristics. Barbaric societies who castrated boys aside, it is only recently the idea of physical treatments for gender non-conforming people has been accepted.

Yes, and I think the point is, western societies on the whole are the tolerant places to be on the globe.
We just haven't developed effective societal safety valves to protect ourselves from those who seek to do us physical or mental harm.
 

Offline Cyclotron

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Re: ‘Male’ and ‘female’ plugs and connectors – gendered language
« Reply #173 on: September 10, 2026, 06:04:09 pm »
A lot of nonsense has been spouted in this thread. I suspect some of it is pushed by academic institutions and the mainstream media, which results in many people absorbing it without questioning it.

Race is a social construct. No it isn't.

If race is a social construct than why is it:

More often than not, most people can identify the race of another person based on genetically inherited physical attributes?

One can send of a DNA sample and find out the races of their ancestors?

A blood/tissue recipient will have a better outcome if the donor of the same race?

Some races have a greater likelihood of contracting certain diseases, i.e. skin cancer, sickle cell, due to genetic predisposition?

And ethnicity is synonymous with race, although nowadays it tends to be used for more closely related groups of people, rather than to distinguish between those with ancestors on different continents, especially in the USA.

Gender is also not a social construct. Gender is society's expectations and stereotypes of a person, based on their biological sex. If biology is disconnected from gender, then the word gender becomes a circular definition, devoid of real meaning.

Question "What is a a woman?". Answer "Someone who identifies as a woman."

Question "How does one know that they are a woman." Answer "Because  they identify as a woman!".

Now assume gender is linked to sex and it becomes simple.

Question "What is a woman?". Answer "An adult human female."

Questions " Isn't that transphobic? What about transwomen?" Answers "Transwomen are biological males, who wish to be treated by society as though they are female. No it isn't transphobic. It is a fact."

Lastly if gender is really a social construct, then no one would be in favor of physical medical treatments for anyone.

Transpeople believe they are born in the wrong body or have gender dysphoria. Not in all cases. Some might believe they are in the wrong body or have gender dysphoria, but this is not necessarily the case. Many just believe they don't fit the socially expected stereotype associated with their biological sex. Distinguishing between the two is important when it comes to medicine and is one of the reasons why surgery and hormone treatments are controversial.

Finally there definitely are cases of some people, almost exclusively men, identifying as the opposite sex for nefarious reasons i.e. autogynephilia. It's a minority and this fact has used by those who want to persecute transpeople, but it's doesn't change the fact that it is the case. There are plenty of videos by trans identifying males on social media which demonstrate this. It is why concerns surrounding separate sex sports and changing facilities valid.

There's one race, the human race. If you had proof of there being more than one you'd be famous. 8 billion people on the planet with less than 0.1% gene difference on the highest end. Sociology and mass media will tell you there are races but you shouldn't believe them.

Genetics predict things about people but I've seen no evidence that what people around the world think of is race has any significant correlation as genetics in making such predictions.  For instance, being the same amount genetically Spanish a person in the use may well be called a gringo by a person who grew up in Mexico but they could easily share a distant relative.

Ethnicity and Race are orthogonal to one another. If race is the smartphone brand, then ethnicity is the specific ringtone and screensaver. 
Heritage, traditions, and family recipes have nothing to do with how you look unless you are just assuming they do.

I don't know if we agree on gender, I can't really sort out what you mean. As someone previously mentioned, participation in society is negotiated. No one gets to demand me speak. My perception and my thoughts are in my language, my interface with the world is a patch work of guesses. If a person feels insulted by what they feel is a misgender or wrong guess then they should be adult enough to consider why that has happened.  If for instance, they know they look like a man and were spoken to that way then the adult thing to do is suck it up. I think we agree in this area but I remain unsure.

I know I have a big head and I know I'm ugly. I suck it up. 
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: ‘Male’ and ‘female’ plugs and connectors – gendered language
« Reply #174 on: September 10, 2026, 06:52:37 pm »
I said analogies only make sense because they make SPECIFIC REFERENCE between two things. I said that the 'master/slave' analogy is a bigger problem in the USA because of its history with race-based slavery. That's not a dog whistle or a racebait... its a fact, man.
I've not met a single person in real life who has a problem with it. The majority of people who have an issue are also white.

It also conveniently forgets the fact many Africans sold other Africans to the Europeans and Arabs as slaves. Heck, many Africans dislike Caribbeans and black Americans because they consider them to be losers. A dominant ethnic group subjugates weaker ones, who are considered to be inferior and sold off as slaves.

Quote
I will add that discourse in the USA has a disproportionate impact on the global community because so much technology literature is based in the USA and, lets face it, the USA has a tremendous political and social influence globally and the USA has a recent tendency to make ITS problems the problems of other people. Hmm, I think the term for that is 'cultural imperialism.'  >:D
Yes, this is why it annoys people from other countries. Yes, the British Empire also contributed to slavery, but it was also instrumental in abolishing it and quite often encountered resistance form Africans.

Perhaps this is something you should consider if you don't want to offend people.

There's one race, the human race. If you had proof of there being more than one you'd be famous.
My eyes tell me. I can tell an East Asian person from a black African and a European. Heck, I can even tell English from Italians, most of the time, based on facial features alone.

Are you saying you really can't tell that Martin Luther King had some sub-Saharan ancestry, where has Donald Trump does not, or very little if he does?

Quote
8 billion people on the planet with less than 0.1% gene difference on the highest end. Sociology and mass media will tell you there are races but you shouldn't believe them.
There doesn't have to be much genetic variation to result in significant differences in phenotype. Domestic animals such as dogs for example often have less genetic differences compared to their wild ancestors, yet we can all determine one dog breed from another.

Quote
Genetics predict things about people but I've seen no evidence that what people around the world think of is race has any significant correlation as genetics in making such predictions.  For instance, being the same amount genetically Spanish a person in the use may well be called a gringo by a person who grew up in Mexico but they could easily share a distant relative.
That's because the countries you've mentioned and lived in have a high degree of interracial mixing. It isn't the case in other countries such as those in Europe, where although many have recently become mixed, different ethnic groups self-segregate and more often than not marry their own kind.

Quote
Ethnicity and Race are orthogonal to one another. If race is the smartphone brand, then ethnicity is the specific ringtone and screensaver. 
Heritage, traditions, and family recipes have nothing to do with how you look unless you are just assuming they do.
Yes they do, because people tend to marry those with similar values and culture i.e. speak the same language and follow the same religion. This doesn't mean there's an exact definite link, but there is a correlation in genetics vs language even though it isn't that strong.

https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistics/past-research-resources/language-history/correlating-genes-and-languages/

You still haven't refuted my points relating to organ donation and disease.

And why do most people not consider Rachel Dolezal (look her up, of you're not familiar with her) to be black? If race is a social construct then her genetics shouldn't matter, should they?

Personally speaking I don't have a problem with Rachel identifying as African-American in the cultural sense of the word, adopting similar dress and customs. The same is true for many foreigners who come to England and assimilate; it's true they might not be ethnically English, but they might be culturally English.

Quote
I don't know if we agree on gender, I can't really sort out what you mean. As someone previously mentioned, participation in society is negotiated. No one gets to demand me speak. My perception and my thoughts are in my language, my interface with the world is a patch work of guesses. If a person feels insulted by what they feel is a misgender or wrong guess then they should be adult enough to consider why that has happened.  If for instance, they know they look like a man and were spoken to that way then the adult thing to do is suck it up. I think we agree in this area but I remain unsure.

I know I have a big head and I know I'm ugly. I suck it up.

A big problem is words have become muddled up by activists, hence the reason for this thread. Unfortunately the word race has become politicised, especially in the US. It's why I often read articles which say thing such as race is not linked to genetics, then continue on with evidence to suggest otherwise. I find the double-speak perplexing. I don't see race as a political thing, just observable set of physical features present in different human populations. No doubt I probably have an unconscious bias towards my own kind, but that's intrinsic to human nature, whether people like to admit it or not.

 


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