SmallSMT - Discussion Thread.

[thommo]

Koen,

I don't have to WIN this discussion.
I am was a potential customer.
BTW - you didn't answer my question

In the lasts posts I've read, he chose not to understand the role of an agent, that different type of companies with different rules exists, the difference between profit and revenue, the responsibility of the receiver for shipment verification and the fact this korean customer obviously needed a second machine along the first, not a second machine to repair the first.

Michael isn't that hard to understand but this has been going on for 5 pages and the signal to noise ratio took a dive.

[Koen]

Yes, I'm following the three main pnp threads to order one by May the 1st.

[glenenglish]

@Michael, is there any plan or facility for YS to release the control codes for their machine ?

The machine is clearly mechanically very good.

I think you could sell alot of machines  if the control codes were all pubic, and people could use open PNP (and perhaps an intermediate OS interface)

IE forget about developing software, just make machines.... let the users do the painful work... You are in the price point where users are happy to do some of that legwork.
Every professional knows you don't get something for nothing.

glen

[Royce]

Although I am not in the market in the near future, I follow closely and I concur with Koen's assessment of this thread. MrP has forgotten, ignored, or just not understood a number of aspects of what this guy was saying even beyond Koen's list.

[mrpackethead]

Although I am not in the market in the near future, I follow closely and I concur with Koen's assessment of this thread. MrP has forgotten, ignored, or just not understood a number of aspects of what this guy was saying even beyond Koen's list.

In making any purchaseing decision i have to do due diligence.  Business wise Micheals proposition did not stack up for me, and my assessment of the risk profile was just too high. I was unable to establish who or what SmallSMT was. The only thing i could find was that funds would be sent to a personal bank account in CHina, in the name of Sunny ( her chinese name of course  ).   Roberts experience of dealing with that entity ( sunny ) made me very hesitant. Much of the angst could have been saved by straight forward answers. When answers are not straight forward it erodes the trust profile.     I may be wrong in my assessment, but i will live and die by it.

I do appreicate your Opinion Royce, we live in a world where we all take a difference stance on things.

[sparkswillfly]

Desktop PNP market is still for early adopters.  Perfect example/approach is by Axel/servokit who is happy with a mostly working machine out of the box and spends endless time tinkering/upgrading.  I have been watching smallsmt developments since the beginning and would not be worried about purchasing from them.  Platform evolution/refinement has been very impressive.  But my expectations for any machine are relatively low because that is realistic for this market at this time.

[ar__systems]

I've read and comprehend all of what is being said, and disagree that there is any unjust comment that's been made here.

Like, really?

Oh this is scary.. So if you are charging for freight and it arrives damaged, then he had to buy a new machine..

mrpackethead is being deliberately obtuse there.

[Smallsmt]

@Michael, is there any plan or facility for YS to release the control codes for their machine ?

The machine is clearly mechanically very good.

I think you could sell alot of machines  if the control codes were all pubic, and people could use open PNP (and perhaps an intermediate OS interface)

IE forget about developing software, just make machines.... let the users do the painful work... You are in the price point where users are happy to do some of that legwork.
Every professional knows you don't get something for nothing.

glen

Hi Glen,
our customer receive the technical manual including the complete controller signal description and the CNC controller command list to do your own software if you like.
Best regards
Michael

[Smallsmt]

Hi Andrew,
yesterday I read your last posting and it was nice.
I thought it's now ok for you.
But why did you delete?

Best regards
Michael

Clearly I'm too stupid to be A SmallSMT customer.

'The Customer is Always Right' sure

Sage Advice

Just read through this thread, and at page five I almost pulled the trigger. Now I'm through it all and my enthusiasm is dead...
Choosing is an elimination game so I guess I can thank you for self-elimination. 

I'm with you. 

Goodbye.
A too stupid to be a SmallSMT customer.

[ttsthermaltech]

I think there is some confusion here.

We are talking about desktop PNP's being sold on the open market (ie, retail) , not Kickstarter campaigns or any other prototype buying / investing site. PNP's are not rocket science. Yes they take some technical understanding to design / build but most of the China machines are mechanically sound (within reason). The problem is software / support.   We aren't asking for perfection here either. We all understand there will be / can be small issues. That is normal. How these issues are handled is the issue at hand.

When these machine builders sell machines with obvious major flaws, with no intent on fixing / providing an upgrade path to unsure customer satisfaction, results like this thread appear. Mechanical aside, spec'ing or designing a controller that has sufficient I/O to support the machine is relatively simple. As long as that part of the design is sound, then software updates should be able to fix most, if not all other issues. In the end, software is key. Most of the machines run Windows based GUI's, which makes the ability to upgrade easy. Why support and the ambition to further develop software and fix bugs is outside the scope of certain machine builders is beyond my comprehension.

For a living, I develop software. As a result, I need to develop hardware. Hardware design, albeit tedious, I find rather cathartic. A lot of the hard work is done for you in today's world of highly advanced IC's and MCU's. Most of my boards designs take less than a few weeks to go from concept to prototype. The software however is a living entity. It is almost always in development. I try ensure software is bug free (that I know of) upon initial sale of the first unit. Software development continues to add features, enhance performance, and if necessary address any bugs found internally or by our customers. Yes it costs more to continually evolve your software, but if you want to survive in a high tech world, you evolve... If a customer purchase fails to work as advertised, I either ensure that an software / firmware update fixes the problem, if not, and I have a part that resolves the issue, I send it to the customer with full credit for the old item, or I refund the customer. I can't afford to have unhappy customers. It is far too costly to obtain customers. It is much easier / less costly to keep them happy.  I also find that the cost of ongoing development actually costs less in the long run, than trying to support work-arounds to bugs.

I still don't understand why certain companies manuals / documentation is so bad. Really hire someone that knows nothing about your products, and write down the answers to all the questions they have to make it work. For the most part. Your manual is now complete.

Sure, maybe a few of us want to buy a piece of hardware and get the protocol to write our own PNP software, but in reality, I think most of us just want to buy a machine, at a certain price point, with certain features, that works as advertised. Essentially, take delivery, setup, and build boards.

Maybe I am wrong. But that is what I wanted / expected....

Desktop PNP market is still for early adopters.  Perfect example/approach is by Axel/servokit who is happy with a mostly working machine out of the box and spends endless time tinkering/upgrading.  I have been watching smallsmt developments since the beginning and would not be worried about purchasing from them.  Platform evolution/refinement has been very impressive.  But my expectations for any machine are relatively low because that is realistic for this market at this time.

[glenenglish]

@michael

OK on the signalling and controller documentation - that is a very good step.

FYI
I'd want to see the documentation first before purchasing so I could assess the quality and depth.

Is the documentation available for download on your site ?

regards
 

[Smallsmt]

Send email to [email protected] including name and address and I send the manuals.

[Hufi]

Sometimes it´s sobering to read all the comments and what customers expect  . I make a comparison: I want to buy a car. But first I ask Mr. Zetsche (the CEO of Daimler) for the complete development documentation of the Mercedes I want to buy. My argument: I need this information to estimate the quality of the car.

Or to stay on the electronical scope: I ask Yamaha, Juki or Samsung for their software source code or similar development papers.

We should remember what we are talking about: A really cheap PnP machine for prototypes or small series production. We are not talking about machines for hundred thousand dollars.

For me it´s only one issue: The machine should work without problems and help me manufacturing my PCB boards. That´s it! And in case of problems I need a good support. As announced I have ordered the VP-2800HP two weeks ago. For me only the function counts. I have no intention to change anything in software or to write software by myself. I want to assemble PCB boards – that´s the reason I trust in Michael and the VP-2800HP.

When it fails: Okay, then I have lost 12.000 USD. So what? A similar PnP with (supposedly) perfect support, quality, reliability and proprietary name cost 10 times more than the VP-2800HP. And when I need technical support I have to pay from 70 up to 200 USD for one hour support service. Btw: I already have a lot of experience with expensive PnP machines too.

It´s always the same: You get what you pay for. And I keep this in mind all the time. When I buy a Chinese manufactured product for less money I always have a risk. To avoid the risk I have to buy a more expensive machine made in Germany/Japan/Korea/USA for instance. I can calculate my risk and can minimize it. And that´s the reason I bought a SmallSMT. May be I´m wrong – but I have no problem to admit having made a mistake perhaps.

Best regards
Robert

[mikeselectricstuff]

Send email to [email protected] including name and address and I send the manuals.

Why would you not put documentation on the website? This sort of attitude just puts off potential customers.

[Smallsmt]

Mike,
documentation costs money and time and I don't offer a blue print for my competitors.

So it is just normal to ask for the name of a person to send this!

And remember I show in a web meeting everything a customer should know before buying a machine.
So think about if this service is better or not?

[mikeselectricstuff]

That's just shortsighted, and will lose you potential customers.

[ar__systems]

Even I'm starting to get annoyed by mikeselectricstuff' relentless pestering of Smallsmt. Don't you have better things to do?

[mikeselectricstuff]

Don't understand that comment - all I'm doing is suggesting how they might themselves more attractive to potential customers. Not being open with documentation is just stupid, there is nothing to gain from it,but it will put some potential customers off.
 If they don't want to listen then that's their problem, I don't care.

[coppice]

Mike,
documentation costs money and time and I don't offer a blue print for my competitors.

So it is just normal to ask for the name of a person to send this!

And remember I show in a web meeting everything a customer should know before buying a machine.
So think about if this service is better or not?

Do you have a clear idea how many potential customers would be driven away by a paranoid attitude like this? I would guess a lot. I am certainly very reluctant to buy when I meet this kind of close to the chest attitude to important product information. You always need to be wary of the amount of help you might give competitors, but you have to balance that against how much you might help to build relationships with paying customers.

[mikeselectricstuff]

It's just like opening up something and finding numbers ground off chips. if a company is stupid enough to think this makes sense, how many other stupid decisions have they made?
Selling a reasonably expensive bit of kit requires that customers have confidence in the supplier.
Things like this just erode that with no benefit from the manufacturer. Unfortunately this attitude is shared by many Chinese companies, and is one of the things that holds back Chinese companies from being treated seriously outside of the Far East.

[Smallsmt]

Customers receive everything from us so what's the problem?
If you like my machine and need any information feel free to ask me.

None of my competitors offer this documents free on their website so why should I do?

Mike,
documentation costs money and time and I don't offer a blue print for my competitors.

So it is just normal to ask for the name of a person to send this!

And remember I show in a web meeting everything a customer should know before buying a machine.
So think about if this service is better or not?

Do you have a clear idea how many potential customers would be driven away by a paranoid attitude like this? I would guess a lot. I am certainly very reluctant to buy when I meet this kind of close to the chest attitude to important product information. You always need to be wary of the amount of help you might give competitors, but you have to balance that against how much you might help to build relationships with paying customers.

[Smallsmt]

Hi Mike did you read our documents?
I send the account info to you.

It's just like opening up something and finding numbers ground off chips. if a company is stupid enough to think this makes sense, how many other stupid decisions have they made?
Selling a reasonably expensive bit of kit requires that customers have confidence in the supplier.
Things like this just erode that with no benefit from the manufacturer. Unfortunately this attitude is shared by many Chinese companies, and is one of the things that holds back Chinese companies from being treated seriously outside of the Far East.

[mrpackethead]

In Micheals Defence,

I asked for the documentation and he provided it to me by way to giving me access to his downloads page.

The documentation was understandable, though it could do with someone going through it to resolve the grammar and structure to make it more readable.     There was nothing in the documentation however that i would regard as competitively interesting, it would'nt be very useful for reserve engineering / protocol decoding / general copying..   

[mrpackethead]

Are the Servo's that are on the HP machines,  Hybrid Servos ( stepping servos - closed loop ) or are they BLDC types?

[mikeselectricstuff]

Customers receive everything from us so what's the problem?
If you like my machine and need any information feel free to ask me.

None of my competitors offer this documents free on their website so why should I do?

To make you stand out as being better than the competition.

Makers of other types of equipment in a similar price range, e.g scopes, spectrum analyzers etc. ALL make their docs available online without needing to ask.
It is not reasonable to compare this sort of pick & place with the likes of Mydata, Essemtech etc. as it is aimed at a very different market, and is much more similar to mid-range test gear than high-end pick/place in terms of target market  and the purchasing decision-making process.

Hi Mike did you read our documents?

No,because I'm not particularly interested in the docs themselves, just pointing out that making them less accessible can only have a negative impact on you.

So let's say a competitor takes your docs and uses what parts of them that are relevant to their machine - is this going to enable them to sell a machine that someone would otherwise have bought from you? Of course not.
And if a competitor really wanted to do this all they need to do is pretend to be a potential customer and ask for them.
And if a competitor can be shown to have copied you, it's only going to make them look bad.

Is a potential customer who discovers your website, quickly finds the docs, and  can read them to find out more going to have some preference over someone else where they have to go to the trouble of emailing and waiting - maybe. 
Maybe while they're waiting for your reply, they're also looking at the competition instead of reading your docs and realising that your machine is ideal for them so they don't bother looking further.
 
Bottom line is that you have nothing to lose and everything to gain, unless of course the quality of the docs are so bad it puts someone off, but that would happen however easy or hard they were to obtain.