Author Topic: More TBHS soldering fail  (Read 9148 times)

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Offline tookiTopic starter

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More TBHS soldering fail
« on: October 27, 2017, 02:53:07 pm »
Wow. 12:12: flood the pins with solder so as to transfer more heat to the part…  :palm: :palm: :palm:

And are those 0805 resistors on pads for 0603 or 0402?

https://youtu.be/9jhw9n2gJ2Y
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: More TBHS soldering fail
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2017, 12:09:50 am »
Well to be fair, he did say at the beginning that he was going to "Sod 'er up" and he did properly sod up most of the soldering.  :)

Wow. 12:12: flood the pins with solder so as to transfer more heat to the part…  :palm: :palm: :palm:

I got interested in electronics just as transistors were becoming the hobbyist's normal component to work with as opposed to vacuum tubes. There were articles in the magazines for the old hands to get them up to speed on construction techniques for these newfangled fragile components that required you to trade in your old 'fire stick' soldering iron for a new cooler 15W one so as not to damage them by transferring too much heat to them. Perhaps Mr. Heck is a tube enthusiast and older than he looks?

On a more serious note, it's a bit of a shame that Element 14 are promoting such amateurish stuff.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline eugenenine

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Re: More TBHS soldering fail
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2017, 12:26:36 am »
Looks like the typical drag technique to me.  Looks like people are looking for a reason to hate.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: More TBHS soldering fail
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2017, 12:46:40 am »
Looks like the typical drag technique to me.  Looks like people are looking for a reason to hate.

Nothing like typical drag technique, he deliberately bridged all the pins with a massive excess of solder and then took the excess off with solder wick. Good technique is, just enough solder and just enough heat, no more of either than is necessary.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline tookiTopic starter

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Re: More TBHS soldering fail
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2017, 01:09:12 am »
Looks like the typical drag technique to me.  Looks like people are looking for a reason to hate.
Ditto what Cerebus said: this isn’t drag soldering, it’s just a mess. It’s not “hating”, by the way, it’s calling someone out on legitimately terrible technique. Someone whose technique is so bad shouldn’t be doing tutorials. (BH does many things well, or at least OK, but his soldering is consistently atrocious.)
 
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Offline bitwelder

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Re: More TBHS soldering fail
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2017, 05:47:50 am »
On a more serious note, it's a bit of a shame that Element 14 are promoting such amateurish stuff.
Maybe in a few weeks they will have a 'feedback' episode where they will admit it was a little sloppy work and show how much better results you can get if you buy <expensive soldering station from E14>
 

Offline vk2amv

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Re: More TBHS soldering fail
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2017, 09:48:29 am »
Ouch.
I am not the best solderer at times myself, but that was painful for even me to watch.
It's only when you look at an ant through a magnifying glass on a sunny day, that you realise how often they burst into flames.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: More TBHS soldering fail
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2017, 10:02:18 am »
Might Mr Heck be showing what your average kit builder is easily capable of if only they were shown how? Watch a decent tech do precision soldering and you'd be forgiven for thinking you need many hundreds worth of JBC kit. Here, he shows that it's perfectly possible to use a five quid thing from Aldi/Lidl, and I bet more amateurs are more likely to give this a go than if they'd just watched one of those HP films.
 

Offline tookiTopic starter

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Re: More TBHS soldering fail
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2017, 05:08:19 am »
Might Mr Heck be showing what your average kit builder is easily capable of if only they were shown how? Watch a decent tech do precision soldering and you'd be forgiven for thinking you need many hundreds worth of JBC kit. Here, he shows that it's perfectly possible to use a five quid thing from Aldi/Lidl, and I bet more amateurs are more likely to give this a go than if they'd just watched one of those HP films.
Uhhh what? He's not using an Aldi light-dimmer-heat-stick thingie, he's using a Weller. He's proving that good tools don't overcome poor skills!

Generally speaking, Ben Heck has really great tools, far above his skill set. (I do admire his creativity and overall systems engineering knack.)
 
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Offline PlainName

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Re: More TBHS soldering fail
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2017, 08:55:14 am »
Quote
he's using a Weller

Is it? Looks pretty generic and unloved to me :) But I'll go with you on that and ask what the Weller brings to the party that the Lidl stick wouldn't, in practical terms? The tip isn't SMD-specific albeit a little less fat that a plumber might use.
 

Offline tookiTopic starter

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Re: More TBHS soldering fail
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2017, 09:36:13 am »
Quote
he's using a Weller

Is it? Looks pretty generic and unloved to me :) But I'll go with you on that and ask what the Weller brings to the party that the Lidl stick wouldn't, in practical terms? The tip isn't SMD-specific albeit a little less fat that a plumber might use.
His Weller base station is readily visible (I mean, they're turquoise…). From this and other of his videos, I believe it's a WESD51: http://www.weller-toolsus.com/soldering/systems/wes-series/weller-wesd51-soldering-station-digital-50w-120v-eta.html

It does look unloved — but that seems to be how Wellers look after a few years. They last forever, but they look grungy pretty fast. But yeah, that tip needs to be replaced or cleaned, seriously…

That Weller is true temperature-controlled, whereas the Lidl ones are merely power-controllable. So the Lidl lets you reduce the power to the heater manually, while the Weller lets you set a temperature, and it will maintain it, which is FAR better.

Have you not watched any of the EEVblog soldering videos, or even better, the ones from Pace Worldwide (old, but awesome)? That'll give you a lot of the basic knowledge on this subject.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: More TBHS soldering fail
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2017, 12:52:47 pm »
Quote
His Weller base station is readily visible

I was just looking at the stick.

Quote
That Weller is true temperature-controlled, whereas the Lidl ones

Sure, but that's not actually relevant for splashing blobs on SMD chips, is it? So long as the stuff is molten and isn't evaporating, the job's a good 'un.

Quote
Have you not watched any of the EEVblog soldering videos

I've seen some (typically stuff like the Pace) but not the EEVBlog ones - after actually doing it for 30 years, basics videos get pretty boring quite quickly.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: More TBHS soldering fail
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2017, 01:23:48 pm »
Uhhh what? He's not using an Aldi light-dimmer-heat-stick thingie, he's using a Weller. He's proving that good tools don't overcome poor skills!

Generally speaking, Ben Heck has really great tools, far above his skill set. (I do admire his creativity and overall systems engineering knack.)
It doesn't really seem to matter it's a Weller, it's a pretty hefty iron for the type of work he's doing. A much more subtle iron or tip would be suitable.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: More TBHS soldering fail
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2017, 04:48:59 pm »
Sure, but that's not actually relevant for splashing blobs on SMD chips, is it? So long as the stuff is molten and isn't evaporating, the job's a good 'un.

I take it then, that you've never looked at the acceptable soldering time versus temperature graphs that appear near the end of many SMD component data sheets?

Among other parameters they will specify a maximum lead temperature and a maximum 'time within 5C from peak temperature'. For maximum lead temperature a figure in the low  to mid 200 C range is not untypical; randomly flipping through a few data sheets I get 260C as the highest quoted maximum lead temperature (for lead free parts, parts designed for Pb processes are typically lower). Typical times for the 'maximum time within 5C from peak temperature' are 10-30 seconds - I've never seen lower than 10 quoted and I don't believe I've ever seen a figure greater than 30 seconds.

Damage from soldering heat is cumulative. Most SMD parts are rated to take 3 reflow cycles, go over that, or solder at too high a temperature for too long and you can expect to see failures. Moreover, you may not see frank failures from overheating parts, you may just see reduced performance or failure to meet published specifications.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline GreyWoolfe

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Re: More TBHS soldering fail
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2017, 07:44:22 pm »
I just watched the video.  I would have thought that as much as he solders, he would do a better job.  I agree with Tooki--He's proving that good tools don't overcome poor skills!  I don't solder a million joints a year but I certainly solder better than that.
"Heaven has been described as the place that once you get there all the dogs you ever loved run up to greet you."
 
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Offline tookiTopic starter

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Re: More TBHS soldering fail
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2017, 10:52:02 am »
Quote
That Weller is true temperature-controlled, whereas the Lidl ones

Sure, but that's not actually relevant for splashing blobs on SMD chips, is it? So long as the stuff is molten and isn't evaporating, the job's a good 'un.
Absolutely not. For starters, you shouldn't be "splashing blobs" anywhere, which was kinda my whole point in creating this thread: his technique is abhorrent.

It doesn't really seem to matter it's a Weller, it's a pretty hefty iron for the type of work he's doing. A much more subtle iron or tip would be suitable.
Well, while I do hate conical tips, the actual size of the tip is fine for drag soldering. But of course, what he did is neither drag soldering nor "classic" soldering. (German has a great saying for things like this: "Weder Fisch noch Fleisch!" — 'neither fish nor meat' :) )

I just watched the video.  I would have thought that as much as he solders, he would do a better job.  I agree with Tooki--He's proving that good tools don't overcome poor skills!  I don't solder a million joints a year but I certainly solder better than that.
The thing is, I almost feel bad calling him out on it, insofar as he's got great ideas and creativity, and unlike me, usually sees his stuff through to fruition (whereas I get hung up on some detail and don't finish until everything is perfect). And he seems like a genuinely nice guy. Also, his wire routing on perfboard is truly a thing of beauty, if you ignore his giant "Hershey Kisses" solder blobs.

But at the same time, he shouldn't be teaching such bad techniques to novices. They have no way of knowing that his soldering technique can damage chips, or that mains AC on a breadboard or veroboard is insanely dangerous. I wish he would limit himself to the things he's good at, and simply not address the things he's not good at.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: More TBHS soldering fail
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2017, 04:03:57 pm »
Well, while I do hate conical tips, the actual size of the tip is fine for drag soldering. But of course, what he did is neither drag soldering nor "classic" soldering. (German has a great saying for things like this: "Weder Fisch noch Fleisch!" — 'neither fish nor meat' :) )

The standard English version of that phrase is "neither fish nor fowl" which nicely keeps the alliteration and is at least medieval in origin.


The thing is, I almost feel bad calling him out on it, insofar as he's got great ideas and creativity, and unlike me, usually sees his stuff through to fruition (whereas I get hung up on some detail and don't finish until everything is perfect). And he seems like a genuinely nice guy. Also, his wire routing on perfboard is truly a thing of beauty, if you ignore his giant "Hershey Kisses" solder blobs.

But at the same time, he shouldn't be teaching such bad techniques to novices. They have no way of knowing that his soldering technique can damage chips, or that mains AC on a breadboard or veroboard is insanely dangerous. I wish he would limit himself to the things he's good at, and simply not address the things he's not good at.

The problem here is amateurism. Many years ago, in a midnight Kaffeeklatsch, a friend and I came up with a classification of amateurism and professionalism (for subjects that can both be hobbies and paying occupations) that, in retrospect, has stood the test of time and I offer here for your consideration.

Amateur amateurs

People who do what they do for the love of it, but lack skills and training that mark the product of their work apart from true professionals. They may produce good work, but it lacks subtle features that mark it apart from the work of a true professional. In our endeavours that often comes down to things like fit and finish, soldering quality and so on the mechanical side of things and temperature stability, insensitivity to component values, EMC compliance and so on the design side of things. What they lack in training and experience they often make up for in enthusiasm.

Amateur professionals

People who do what they do for pay, but turn out work no better than, and often worse than the amateur amateurs. They often turn out work that 'could be better' and also turn out work that is plain wrong or dangerous despite supposedly having the necessary training and experience. This category also includes amateur amateurs who have started taking money for their work, or even started a career as a professional based on their amateur experiences without fully grasping the limits of their knowledge and experience. People from either route of entry are dangerous, even if only to the reputation of the final two classes. The class most likely to fall back on an argument from authority: "I went to MIT", "I"ve been doing this twenty years", "They gave me a seat in the House of Lords because I'm so good*".

The worst boss you ever had was probably one of these, and indeed, the original discussion that lead to this set of classifications started with discussing my then boss who had "Twenty five years experience"; unfortunately all that experience was a year of the same experiences, repeated twenty five times in succession.

A discussion of this class wouldn't be complete without the obligatory reference to the Dunning–Kruger effect**.

Professional amateurs

People who do what they do for the love of it, are often self taught, but turn out work that meets and frequently exceeds the standards one would expect of a professional. Most people would have great difficulty telling the work of a professional amateur from a true professional.  The biggest fault of this class can be aiming for a perfect result as compared to an 'engineered' result.

Professional professionals

People who do what they do for pay, and produce work that fully meets the standards of their profession. Sometimes their work will fall short of the standards of the professional amateur, but that is because they know when to stop to achieve a job good enough for the brief or budget.


*Yes, I'm looking at you Martha Lane Fox.

**I'll just point out that we discussed exactly that effect in the conversation that lead to this homily at least twenty years before Dunning and Kruger put their names to it and somewhere in the Usenet archives is a summary like this one written in the mid 90s by the other party to the original conversation. I'm not going to accuse Dunning or Kruger of plagiarism,  but perhaps a name change is in order.  :)
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline pix3l

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Re: More TBHS soldering fail
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2017, 04:16:21 pm »
Yes he really knows how NOT to solder: https://youtu.be/FO9CHjdqBr8
 :palm:
 

Offline wraper

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Re: More TBHS soldering fail
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2017, 05:03:49 pm »
Uhhh what? He's not using an Aldi light-dimmer-heat-stick thingie, he's using a Weller. He's proving that good tools don't overcome poor skills!

Generally speaking, Ben Heck has really great tools, far above his skill set. (I do admire his creativity and overall systems engineering knack.)
It doesn't really seem to matter it's a Weller, it's a pretty hefty iron for the type of work he's doing. A much more subtle iron or tip would be suitable.
Frankly I would do much better job even with 10mm chisel tip and without any solder wick. Actually oversized tip usually is not a problem unless you solder something really tiny. For example, I occasionally use 2.4 mm chisel tip to solder 0603 parts if I don't want to bother with changing the tip. If flux residues are cleaned afterwards, there won't be noticeable difference compared to factory made reflow soldering.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: More TBHS soldering fail
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2017, 05:19:24 pm »
The problem here is amateurism. Many years ago, in a midnight Kaffeeklatsch, a friend and I came up with a classification of amateurism and professionalism (for subjects that can both be hobbies and paying occupations) that, in retrospect, has stood the test of time and I offer here for your consideration.

Amateur amateurs

People who do what they do for the love of it, but lack skills and training that mark the product of their work apart from true professionals. They may produce good work, but it lacks subtle features that mark it apart from the work of a true professional. In our endeavours that often comes down to things like fit and finish, soldering quality and so on the mechanical side of things and temperature stability, insensitivity to component values, EMC compliance and so on the design side of things. What they lack in training and experience they often make up for in enthusiasm.

Amateur professionals

People who do what they do for pay, but turn out work no better than, and often worse than the amateur amateurs. They often turn out work that 'could be better' and also turn out work that is plain wrong or dangerous despite supposedly having the necessary training and experience. This category also includes amateur amateurs who have started taking money for their work, or even started a career as a professional based on their amateur experiences without fully grasping the limits of their knowledge and experience. People from either route of entry are dangerous, even if only to the reputation of the final two classes. The class most likely to fall back on an argument from authority: "I went to MIT", "I"ve been doing this twenty years", "They gave me a seat in the House of Lords because I'm so good*".

The worst boss you ever had was probably one of these, and indeed, the original discussion that lead to this set of classifications started with discussing my then boss who had "Twenty five years experience"; unfortunately all that experience was a year of the same experiences, repeated twenty five times in succession.

A discussion of this class wouldn't be complete without the obligatory reference to the Dunning–Kruger effect**.

Professional amateurs

People who do what they do for the love of it, are often self taught, but turn out work that meets and frequently exceeds the standards one would expect of a professional. Most people would have great difficulty telling the work of a professional amateur from a true professional.  The biggest fault of this class can be aiming for a perfect result as compared to an 'engineered' result.

Professional professionals

People who do what they do for pay, and produce work that fully meets the standards of their profession. Sometimes their work will fall short of the standards of the professional amateur, but that is because they know when to stop to achieve a job good enough for the brief or budget.


*Yes, I'm looking at you Martha Lane Fox.

**I'll just point out that we discussed exactly that effect in the conversation that lead to this homily at least twenty years before Dunning and Kruger put their names to it and somewhere in the Usenet archives is a summary like this one written in the mid 90s by the other party to the original conversation. I'm not going to accuse Dunning or Kruger of plagiarism,  but perhaps a name change is in order.  :)
This sounds a lot like the stages of competence and seems to have a large overlap.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: More TBHS soldering fail
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2017, 06:34:01 pm »
Quote
I take it then, that you've never...

My, y'all do like jumping to assumptions. I know full well how soldering is supposed to happen, but this is NOT about what I know or do. It is about what HE does and shows. Did he look like he is maintaining standards with that iron? Is the beginner that copies him going to? Of course not! Splash it, clean up, done.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: More TBHS soldering fail
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2017, 06:55:44 pm »
Quote
I take it then, that you've never...

My, y'all do like jumping to assumptions. I know full well how soldering is supposed to happen, but this is NOT about what I know or do. It is about what HE does and shows. Did he look like he is maintaining standards with that iron? Is the beginner that copies him going to? Of course not! Splash it, clean up, done.

I can further take it that you don't know what a question mark is. In a rhetorical question it's there to indicate that the question's statement is open to correction.

I take it then, that you've never looked at the acceptable soldering time versus temperature graphs that appear near the end of many SMD component data sheets?

And you're not doing a very good job of communicating that you do know how it's supposed to be done. Here's what you said, in its entirety:

Sure, but that's not actually relevant for splashing blobs on SMD chips, is it? So long as the stuff is molten and isn't evaporating, the job's a good 'un.

If you choose to display apparent ignorance, then it's a little unfair to rebuke people for taking you at your word. Would you prefer that we treat you as a man who can't be taken at his word? I suspect not.
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Offline PlainName

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Re: More TBHS soldering fail
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2017, 08:26:24 pm »
Quote
I can further take it that you...

There you go again. That's a statement of your belief rather than an unsure query.

But, if you insist... I take it that you're a trolling windbag.

 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: More TBHS soldering fail
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2017, 08:39:01 pm »
Quote
I can further take it that you...

There you go again. That's a statement of your belief rather than an unsure query.

Yes, that was the, I think quite clear, intent.



But, if you insist... I take it that you're a trolling windbag.

Methinks the lady doth protest too much, and is going to be roundly ignored from this point on. It's pretty clear that you're just looking for a fight.
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: More TBHS soldering fail
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2017, 08:42:16 pm »
Play nice, lads.
 


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