Author Topic: I need 2 sine waves 90 degree phase shifted circuit  (Read 1915 times)

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Offline Harpal

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I need 2 sine waves 90 degree phase shifted circuit
« on: March 18, 2022, 01:08:47 pm »
I need 2 sine waves 90 degree phase shifted circuit for 2 inductive loads 200 watts each (4 wires )
i am a mechanical engineer....i have little knowledge of electronics

The two sine wave channels MUST be fixed 90 degrees phase shifted ( like 2 phase electricity supply ) never to change.
 no noise on the sine wave , that will be very bad like variable frequency drive for ac motors
I need adjustable frequencies 1hrz   to 4000hrz...
with  adjustable amplitude ...all running on 12 to 24 volts

 i have done my testing using computer software sine wave generator,
the software has 2 channels  , it uses the sound card as the output , the 2 channels can be phase shifted
I plugged the sound card from the computer into a 1000 watt car amplifier..the amplifier powered the two inductive loads...i got the results i needed .
Am not that advanced in electronics i know less than hobbyist ,but i can put together circuits from schematics .
the circuit i need is this .....
from Sine wave generator circuit ....goes into.... phase-shifter circuit......now i have 2 sines waves phase shifted.....then goes into........transistors that powers the 2 loads .........this circuit is what i need
I have no idea how to put this together , but for you guys its easy
thank you for your time reading this

please give price ...am based in UK
Thank you
« Last Edit: March 18, 2022, 02:55:58 pm by Harpal »
 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: I need 2 sine waves 90 degree phase shifted circuit
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2022, 01:26:15 pm »
  Since you're looking for a variable frequency and a non-insignificant power load I would look at a Variable AC Source such as one of the Elgar 251 models. They build units with one phase outputs and three phase outputs but I don't know if they build anything that has 2 phase 90d out of phase so you may need to devise your own phase shift mechanism. The good thing about the Elgars is that they use plug in oscillators to drive the main power units and IIRC they publish the interface spec so you should be able to build some kind phase shift circuit and use that to drive the 2nd power unit.

   Cold link https://www.atecorp.com/products/elgar/251b
 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: I need 2 sine waves 90 degree phase shifted circuit
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2022, 02:04:41 pm »
  Curiosity go the better of me so I went and looked up some of the data on the Elgar controllers and they do make at least one (the PIP 9023) that does handle variable phases. (And whatta know: I looked in my pile of Elgar bits and pieces and I do have one. I've never tried to use it).

    I suggest go look at E-bay and other surplus sources and see what's available and go download some of the Elgar manuals and data sheets and read them. There are also other companies that make similar devices (I have a Power Pacific? model also) but I would stick with Elgar if possible since they are widely available and have many options.

   cold link https://testequipment.center/Product_Documents/Elgar-443.1-Specifications-C7378.pdf
 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: I need 2 sine waves 90 degree phase shifted circuit
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2022, 02:20:38 pm »
  Sheesh, one more time. I just noticed I have a pile of PDF copies of various Elgar manuals that I've saved on my computer. If you need copies send me your E-mail addy and I'll send them to you.

  FWIW  I just looked at the service manual for the 251C and it (para 1-7) says that it has a single phase output but that multiple phase outputs can be obtained by using two or three additional power units and driving them with the same multiphase plug-in oscillator and using signal routing plug-ins for other phases.
 

Offline Harpal

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Re: I need 2 sine waves 90 degree phase shifted circuit
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2022, 02:42:24 pm »
Thank you for the reply :)
I do not need test equipment , i have done my testing using computer software sine wave generator,
the software has 2 channels  , it uses the sound card as the output , the 2 channels can be phase shifted
I plugged the sound card from the computer into a 1000 watt car amplifier...i got the results i needed .
Am not that advanced in electronics to understand what your saying ,but i can put together circuits from schematics .
From what i know, i need .....
from Sine wave generator ....goes into.... phase-shifter.....now i have 2 sines waves phase shifted.....then goes into........transistors that powers the 2 loads .........this circuit is what i need
I have no idea how to put this together , but for you guys its easy
thank you for your time reading this
Harpal
 

Online Ian.M

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Re: I need 2 sine waves 90 degree phase shifted circuit
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2022, 03:24:54 pm »
So you need *either* a high accuracy 90 deg phase shift *or* a high accuracy quadrature sinewave oscillator, as just part of the overall design.

Unfortunately, both are difficult to do in the analog domain with even 1% accuracy over a single decade frequency range and you want a 4 1/2 decade frequency range! 

It is of course possible to generate the quadrature sinewaves digitally, and the max. frequency is low enough that it should be possible on a fast MCU running software DDS driving a couple of DACs, but how much filtering will then be required to meet your 'no noise' 'requirement'?

"... but for you guys its easy"  :-DD  :--

Then there's the issues involved with speccing the power amplifiers.  12V to 24V supply and a '200W' inductive load.  No impedance data provided.

At a first guess, firming up your requirements to get something an EE engineer can quote for would be several hours work, mostly face-to-face clarifying your requirements, helping you to distinguish between ones that are essential, and others that are simply nice to have, and putting numbers on the specification limits.   Several hours work for an experienced consulting EEE in a 1st world country is likely to be in the ballpark of $500 before the actual design process even starts ..... 

Once you've got proper engineering specifications, you'll still have to commission the design.  Some desperate 3rd world undergraduate might knock out something that half-works for a similar fee, or they might simply vanish with your down-payment 'for parts and materials'.
 If you want a qualified engineer as project lead, and reasonable assurances the project will produce working deliverables, you are looking at an order of magnitude or more higher costs.

I'm therefore not surprised Stray Electron has been pushing you hard in the direction of quite reasonably priced off-the-shelf modular test equipment.


However, frequently people not familiar with a particular field of engineering incur excessive  costs because they are narrowly focused on implementing 'one true solution' they have dreamed up when anyone with even technician level experience in that field would make very different choices.   I'd give 50% odds you have an an XY problem, and giving a 'big picture' description of the whole system, what it needs to be able to do and how this quadrature power driver circuit fits into the 'big picture' would let us offer cheaper/better suggestions to get similar results. 
The only reasons *NOT* to tell us more is if you intend to patent the system, or if its commercially sensitive and you cant get a release from your legal dept. to discuss it publicly, or if its subject to any government security classification.

N.B. I don't 'have a horse in this race' as I'm not in any way interested in taking on consultancy work in this field.

« Last Edit: March 18, 2022, 03:40:02 pm by Ian.M »
 

Online gf

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Re: I need 2 sine waves 90 degree phase shifted circuit
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2022, 04:10:08 pm »
i have done my testing using computer software sine wave generator, the software has 2 channels, it uses the sound card as the output, the 2 channels can be phase shifted. I plugged the sound card from the computer into a 1000 watt car amplifier...
i got the results i needed.

What's the problem then? Obviously you already have have a working solution.
 

Offline Harpal

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Re: I need 2 sine waves 90 degree phase shifted circuit
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2022, 04:44:35 pm »
Wow am still dizzy from reading your post ...thank you for posting ..
I play with magnets and electromagnets

I forgot to mention above that the output is rectified before it goes to the coils ,so you having pulsing DC 90 degrees phase shifted

The circuit is for 2 electromagnets doing a seesaw motion ....

I have used VFD's on coils ....the noise the coil makes is not nice, hence analog
it is pulsed DC GOING TO The coils the resistance of the coil varies from 2 ohms to 50 max depends on which coils am playing with
the frequencies is actually maxed out at about 500hrz for steal cores of the electromagnets after that i get heating and weaker fields ,i made it 4000hrz a little extra thought it dint matter .

what em i doing with it ? you will just laugh at me  :( but i will tell you  ..at least you laughed laughter is good for you

am creating a fluctuating MONO-POLE in the air with out any trace of its opposite

What can you do with that ?  8)

am looking for polyphase electrcity , like the old days , its easy to build 2 phase alternator but its too bulky ,

i need a electric power supply
 
« Last Edit: March 18, 2022, 05:03:45 pm by Harpal »
 

Offline cncjerry

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Re: I need 2 sine waves 90 degree phase shifted circuit
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2022, 10:10:19 pm »
Depending on your budget, there are low cost DSP boards from Wondom that can take the place of the sound card for dirt cheap.  You use free software from Analog devices to program the DSP module graphically.  it comes with digital inputs and outputs but also some pots to set the frequency.  Using it, you wouldn't need a quadrature generator as the signals would be sin/cos digital sine wave oscillators and very clean.

if you aren't going to have a sound card and the DSP above is too complex, another way to do this is to generate a square wave using a 555 timer ic and then use a switched capacitor filter to turn the square waves into clean sine waves.

After the 555 time, you would us a quadrature generator circuit like those used to generate I/Q signals for SDRs using what is called the "Tayloe Method".  You should be able to find it pretty easily with google.  Switched capacitor filters can be used to automatically follow the incoming square wave.   Only hangup with this is the input square wave has to be some multiple of the quadrature output (4x ?) and depending on your maximum output frequency, a 555 might not work.

Long, long time ago and far away, I used a PLL divisor and the quadrature generator with a switched capacitor filter to generate the sin/cos pair of waves this way.  It seemed to work well enough for bode plots.

Jerry
 
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Offline Harpal

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Re: I need 2 sine waves 90 degree phase shifted circuit
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2022, 10:34:56 pm »
cncjerry thank you for posting....i do not understand everything you are saying, i know very little about electronics, but thank you

I simply need a 2 phase AC power supply ,can anyone make me one? 2 phase power is 90 degree phase shifted
VFD are 3 phase 120 degree phase angle ...can any one make me a 2 phase VFD 90 degree angle?
Thank you

 

Online Bud

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Re: I need 2 sine waves 90 degree phase shifted circuit
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2022, 12:09:38 am »
Harpal,
I just want to save your time. Your expectations about this forum are unrealistic. People are hanging here to share knowledge and offer advice, not to fulfill "my professor wants me to do this and my work is due tomorrow, please kindly send me a design" kind of requests.
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 
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Offline bdunham7

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Re: I need 2 sine waves 90 degree phase shifted circuit
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2022, 02:07:32 pm »
Are you looking for a one-off for some experiment/project/unique device or are you looking for this to be refined and cost-optimized into something like a reasonable commercial product? 

I could set this up on my bench easily enough with just an arbitrary waveform generator and two large audio amplifiers.  You appear to have done essentially the same thing.  To make it into a product or at least a neater experiment, you probably want to do things the same way--a 2-channel DDS waveform generator, a large SMPS and two Class-D DC audio amplifiers.  It is going to be much easier and cheaper to simply buy those components off-the-shelf than to have them all custom designed.  But if you want a 'product' level design, I'm sure someone can do it for you.  It won't be cheap.

It would help if you would describe your use and the load a little better.  From reading what you did write, I'm thinking this is a physically reactive and inductive load that approximates a large 4-ohm loudspeaker and the 200 watts  you need means a peak current of ~10A or so.  Is that about right?



A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline Harpal

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Re: I need 2 sine waves 90 degree phase shifted circuit
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2022, 02:33:35 pm »
Hello
It a one-off for experiment/project/unique device .
everything you say is correct .
The best option i found is ready made 400watt class D amp 12volts with built in Sd card reader or USB . very chap on ebay
I have to record the sine waves on SD card as mp3 and switch between tracks .its annoying
Am trying to make my project neater and small/mobile
 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: I need 2 sine waves 90 degree phase shifted circuit
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2022, 02:49:29 pm »
The best option i found is ready made 400watt class D amp 12volts with built in Sd card reader or USB . very chap on ebay
I have to record the sine waves on SD card as mp3 and switch between tracks .its annoying
Am trying to make my project neater and small/mobile

So if you already have or can get a PSU and amplifier that is suitable, all you need is an AWG to drive it.  This will work:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/124764409018?hash=item1d0c89ccba:g:sWkAAOSwTnBgwH1S

I have one.  The user interface is not great, but I just confirmed you can set CH2 phase at 90 degrees and then sync the frequencies so that you can dial the frequency up and down on CH1 and always get the same frequency on CH2 with a 90 degree phase shift.  Assuming your amplifier would have RCA input jacks,  you just need a custom BNC-to-RCA cable set and you're in business.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 
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Offline Harpal

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Re: I need 2 sine waves 90 degree phase shifted circuit
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2022, 03:03:15 pm »
that frequencies generator is way to big, my laptop is smaller ...i been searching for something much smaller that i can put inside the amplifier that does what your snowing me (phase shift)....and thank you for helping out  :)
 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: I need 2 sine waves 90 degree phase shifted circuit
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2022, 03:10:55 pm »
that frequencies generator is way to big, my laptop is smaller ...i been searching for something much smaller that i can put inside the amplifier that does what your snowing me (phase shift)....and thank you for helping out  :)

It's not big, it is about 8" wide x 7" deep and 3" tall and light as a feather.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline Harpal

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Re: I need 2 sine waves 90 degree phase shifted circuit
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2022, 06:42:32 pm »
@bdunham7

I have been watching youtube vids about this FY6900 DDS Signal generator, user manual /tear-downs/reviews ect.
Its 80% empty inside , i can fit a class  D amplifier inside it easily and i need to replace its mains power supply which i can do.

Thumps up to you bdunham7 8) ......after posting this post am of to Ebay to buy one ....

Thank you bdunham7 8)

« Last Edit: March 19, 2022, 06:53:20 pm by Harpal »
 


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