Alternatice UI

[PlainName]

There's a lot of things I like about Kicad, but using it isn't one of them. Have none of the devs used Windows in their life? Modeless consistency is the way to go: having to select a mode, do something, unselect the mode, select another mode, etc, is so DOS-era. And right click to do something with an object but left drag to select is... well, I was going to say perverse, but it isn't compared to dragging to select and then attaching to the mouse pointer regardless of mouse button! Every time I make a selection like that I end up moving whatever I've selected.

So, is there an alternative interface that does things in a more Windows-like way? OK, a more pre-W10-like way?

[b_force]

At this moment no, it has been an issue for a while know.
If you have enough programming skills (and time), I guess you can basically port the whole project and work on your own 

[PlainName]

Thanks. Good to know my view isn't too perverse!

Maybe I'll let them have another go at it before jumping in to show 'em how it's done

[b_force]

Thanks. Good to know my view isn't too perverse!

Maybe I'll let them have another go at it before jumping in to show 'em how it's done

Depends who you're asking I guess, some seem to enjoy it.. 

[ebastler]

There's a lot of things I like about Kicad, but using it isn't one of them.

 

I'll frame that and put it up on the wall over my bench.
Thank you for a good laugh!

[delfinom]

There's a lot of things I like about Kicad, but using it isn't one of them. Have none of the devs used Windows in their life? Modeless consistency is the way to go: having to select a mode, do something, unselect the mode, select another mode, etc, is so DOS-era. And right click to do something with an object but left drag to select is... well, I was going to say perverse, but it isn't compared to dragging to select and then attaching to the mouse pointer regardless of mouse button! Every time I make a selection like that I end up moving whatever I've selected.

So, is there an alternative interface that does things in a more Windows-like way? OK, a more pre-W10-like way?

Windows dev here who tries and fix Windows problems.

I am confused by your issue. You are upset because KiCad has a concept of tools that you must select? This is similar to EAGLE and other CAD programs work, you have to enter modes for everything. How do you expect it to know you want to draw a line instead of a via otherwise? We don't exactly have neural interfaces...
The expectation is you learn the hotkeys and everything becomes instant which is true for most CAD programs. Heck, all the online CADs also do the same.

Left click to drag select is how literally drag select works in any program on Windows?

It's also impossible to drag select and move components by accident. You have to activate the move tool _after_ the selection is made by either pressing M or right click move. Even double click on a selection does nothing other than open the properties window.

[Cerebus]

Thanks. Good to know my view isn't too perverse!

No you're not. Exactly the same issues drive me to distraction too.

[Cerebus]

Depends who you're asking I guess, some seem to enjoy it.. 

Well, there are people who pay good money to be tied up and abused too. Takes all sorts...   

[PlainName]

You are upset because KiCad has a concept of tools that you must select?

No, I am disappointed with being in a mode. What tends to happen is you go to some mode (say, placing a track) and click, click, oh just check the incoming email/reference pdf/EEVblog so send your mouse to a different window and it doesn't go because it's locked into track placement mode inside that window. And you've just panned 20 feet away from what you were placing because the window pans when you hit the edge. Etc.

This is similar to EAGLE and other CAD programs work

Ah, right. It should be shit because other things are shit? OK.

The expectation is you learn the hotkeys and everything becomes instant

Arse about face error. The stuff is allegedly there to help me and pander to my whims (aka make things easier), not have me make contortions to fit its foibles. Progress is not made by accepting problems will never be solved and going out of your way to perpetuate them.

[digression]
Speaking of which, the browser address bar is a classic (at least in Firefox and derivatives): start typing a previously-used address and you get URL completion with the suggested part highlit. Sometimes you type the wrong key - say, "eevbr" - and some unwanted auto-completion is offered. No problem, just backspace your bad key and type the right one. Except that backspace deletes the suggest and you need two backspaces to delete your original mistake. Bad, right? But it gets worse because if there was no auto-suggestion you only need one backspace. So you can't sensibly edit a URL in the address bar without looking at what is being typed there. Has no dev ever thoguht to themselves, "Er, this could be a bit confusing"? Hasn't anyone figured that the delete key should delete the actual real keystroke and not a virtual string? This is an example of us being forced to pander to technology (OK, someone's stupid coding/design) rather than having technology work for the user.
[/digression]

Left click to drag select is how literally drag select works in any program on Windows?

Indeed it is, and  you might note that it's not that which I am whining about. It is the instant attaching of the selection to the mouse (despite releasing the left mouse button) so moving the mouse moves whatever is selected. Thus you cannot select something you really don't want to move without a large amount of trepidation, which doesn't encourage one to do the thing!

You have to activate the move tool _after_ the selection is made by either pressing M or right click move.

That's not how it happens for me. Maybe there is some setting to switch between the two, but I know not where or what it is.

[delfinom]

Ah, right. It should be shit because other things are shit? OK.

It is the entire industry, this is 20+ years of UX considerations. Nobody else is complaining. We don't have brain interfaces yet for a computer to magically know what we want it to do on a click.

oh just check the incoming email/reference pdf/EEVblog so send your mouse to a different window and it doesn't go because it's locked into track placement mode inside that window.

This is not possible. KiCad does not attempt to block your mouse from leaving the window and I just retested on 5.1 and had no issue switching windows with a tool activated.

Indeed it is, and  you might note that it's not that which I am whining about. It is the instant attaching of the selection to the mouse (despite releasing the left mouse button) so moving the mouse moves whatever is selected. Thus you cannot select something you really don't want to move without a large amount of trepidation, which doesn't encourage one to do the thing!

Ah I see. This is a schematic editor specific issue in 5.1. This is fixed in the nightlies/master with other significant changes.

Progress is not made by accepting problems will never be solved and going out of your way to perpetuate them.

Progress is also not made by complaining about problems but not proposing an actual solution.
Also submitting a detailed report to the issue tracker helps, we want to know about issues users are facing. But we need them in one place and not forums. We need to know your version, your operating system, the tool being used, the steps taken, etc. That is how progress is made.

[PlainName]

This is fixed in the nightlies/master with other significant changes

OK 

Progress is also not made by complaining about problems but not proposing an actual solution.

To point. It's possible to know that something is wrong (catching a novel infection, say) without knowing how to fix it. However, in this case one only has to look at Windows pre-10 to see how it can be done nicely.

Also submitting a detailed report to the issue tracker helps

Yes, and were I a consistent user I would no doubt do that. A drive-by report without chance of a follow-up might actually do more damage than it fixed.

[Cerebus]

Ah, right. It should be shit because other things are shit? OK.

It is the entire industry, this is 20+ years of UX considerations. Nobody else is complaining. We don't have brain interfaces yet for a computer to magically know what we want it to do on a click.

Oh, I've heard plenty of people complaining, about KiCad and other CAD tools having crappy UIs. The reason that you don't hear about it is that folks who have found CAD UIs less than stellar have given up talking to people who trot out the same tired defences rather than going "OK, what's wrong?". Tired defences like "nobody else is complaining" when quite clearly they are.

[delfinom]

Ah, right. It should be shit because other things are shit? OK.

It is the entire industry, this is 20+ years of UX considerations. Nobody else is complaining. We don't have brain interfaces yet for a computer to magically know what we want it to do on a click.

Oh, I've heard plenty of people complaining, about KiCad and other CAD tools having crappy UIs. The reason that you don't hear about it is that folks who have found CAD UIs less than stellar have given up talking to people who trot out the same tired defences rather than going "OK, what's wrong?". Tired defences like "nobody else is complaining" when quite clearly they are.

Ok, but there's still the second part. It's one thing to say "this is terrible". It's another to say "This is terrible, this is my suggested alternative solution that'll work like XYZ which has benefits ABC over the existing solution" that is far more conducive to getting changes made. Like I'm being serious about the neural interface bit, I personally do not know of any other way to make program determine the intended action selection otherwise. If someone were to describe an alternative or even find something else that is readily accessible like a video or other tool as an example of an alternative, that helps far more.

KiCad in particular does have UX quirks here and there. There has been work in improving a bit of things in the next major version. I've made it my own goal to fix Windows specific UX issues and harass other devs with a stick to fix UX/workflow issues as well. But unless people report clear issues with what is wrong, why is it wrong and what is better, it's really hard to realize things are wrong. We programmers end up stuck in mental sandboxes just like any other engineer may get "arrogant" with his designs until shown the light.

[dl6lr]

Hi,

I find the way KiCad works much more intuitive than i.e. Eagle. There are some shortcomings, of course, but they are not within the UI of the basic functions. It is rather some strange issues I had with library management not recognising my user defined paths, which where resolved magically after some twiddeling.

Regards, Bernd

[PlainName]

It's one thing to say "this is terrible". It's another to say "This is terrible, this is my suggested alternative solution

The click-drag-release is terrible. My suggestion is to copy any Microsoft Windows app: click-drag to select, leave selected but free the mouse. Only if the left button is pressed inside the selection should the selection be dragged or moved.

Bearing in mind your earlier comment I just tried this again now. You can click on something to select and then choose M or whatever to move. Why? Why not just let the thing be dragged with a left mouse button drag? Anyway, I then did a drag select (left mouse button, drag the cursor across the objects to select - this is a 'block select') and then released the mouse button. Moving the mouse dragged the selected objects.

So:

1. Only drag/move when the left mouse button is being pressed

2. When the left mouse button is being pressed, drag/move whatever is under it if it's selected.

[janoc]

To point. It's possible to know that something is wrong (catching a novel infection, say) without knowing how to fix it. However, in this case one only has to look at Windows pre-10 to see how it can be done nicely.

Keep in mind that KiCAD is not Windows software, it is a cross-platform software, working also on a Mac and Linux. So an "only has to look at Windows pre-10" sort of reference is not very helpful because I am pretty sure that "fixing" one UI niggle in this manner will bring a torrent of enraged Mac or Linux users who are used to different UI conventions.

Also submitting a detailed report to the issue tracker helps

Yes, and were I a consistent user I would no doubt do that. A drive-by report without chance of a follow-up might actually do more damage than it fixed.

That's fine but then how do you expect the issue to be actually fixed? Or do you expect the developers to be reading 20 random forums, Stack Overflow, Youtube comments and what not to check whether someone didn't write a complaint about their software there today? I hope that we can agree that this would be unmanageable, especially for a project that doesn't have a paid bug triage team and PR/marketing department full of people with nothing better to do.

Bug trackers exist for a reason and it isn't to keep people from reporting problems. The tracker will typically send you an e-mail if there are additional questions or something happens with your report (e.g. it gets resolved), so you don't need to be actively following it.

[sleemanj]

If kiCad want to fix the interface, then they just need to fire up a copy of DipTrace to see how it should be done.

I've tried a few times to give kiCad a go, but the UI and controls just drive me mad every time, it's like you get a new keyboard and the keys are out of your muscle memory, but worse, like all the keys are in completely random order like no other keyboard made.

[janoc]

Oh, I've heard plenty of people complaining, about KiCad and other CAD tools having crappy UIs. The reason that you don't hear about it is that folks who have found CAD UIs less than stellar have given up talking to people who trot out the same tired defences rather than going "OK, what's wrong?". Tired defences like "nobody else is complaining" when quite clearly they are.

You have a point there but the problem with UIs is that pretty much everyone hates them - and everyone wants them to work in *their* way. Good luck trying to reconcile this.

This sort of "KiCAD/Eagle/X UI sucks because it doesn't work the same as software Y" thread is an evergreen and most developers will ignore it because rarely anything constructive comes out of it.

Case in point - personally I like both the KiCAD and Blender UIs because I am a heavy keyboard user - left hand hitting shortcuts activating modes, right hand on a mouse, which makes it very efficient.

Other people hate these UIs because since they don't have everything on a button or a menu entry, it is not discoverable and hard to use for mouse-centric users. E.g. in the case of Blender this type of complaint came often from people switching from 3DS Max/3D Studio where you are totally screwed without a mouse because most things don't really have shortcuts. So people got "trained" to use a mouse for everything and Blender with its different UI philosophy was alien and unusable to them (even though the "two handed" concept with keys/mouse is/was clearly described in the manual).

Then you have programs like MicroCap, that has a horrible UI mess, with buttons everywhere because the authors have obviously tried to expose everything as a button to cater to mouse users.

User interfaces are an entire engineering and design discipline by themselves. Unfortunately a lot of people think they know how it should be done without really knowing much about the subject. Both users and developers.

If kiCad want to fix the interface, then they just need to fire up a copy of DipTrace to see how it should be done.

I've tried a few times to give kiCad a go, but the UI and controls just drive me mad every time, it's like you get a new keyboard and the keys are out of your muscle memory, but worse, like all the keys are in completely random order like no other keyboard made.

You know that you can redefine pretty much all the shortcuts, right? And re "fire up a copy of DipTrace to see how it should be done." - see above.

[Cerebus]

Oh, I've heard plenty of people complaining, about KiCad and other CAD tools having crappy UIs. The reason that you don't hear about it is that folks who have found CAD UIs less than stellar have given up talking to people who trot out the same tired defences rather than going "OK, what's wrong?". Tired defences like "nobody else is complaining" when quite clearly they are.

You have a point there but the problem with UIs is that pretty much everyone hates them - and everyone wants them to work in *their* way. Good luck trying to reconcile this.

No what people want is for UIs to be consistent with conventions for the platform they are on. This is why the drag/select of KiCad is jarring - it doesn't fit the conventions that every other application under the sun uses.

In terms of self-consistency application UIs on different platforms are: terrible on Unix/Linux, OK on Windows, and good on MacOS and I can't help thinking that the Unix/Linux origins of many CAD programs haven't helped here. Word processing applications, both on and across platforms, tend to be surprisingly consistent - I can drive just about any modern word processor on any platform without learning anything before I try using them. Whereas every, and I mean, every schematic entry editor I have ever used on any CAD application is different, wildly different and requires prior study to us, even if you have used every other comparable CAD application beforehand

Why have CAD application designers failed to create a common UI grammar in the way other application designers have in areas like word processing, graphics, spreadsheets and so on? And why do they so often make choices that are inconsistent with the behaviour of other applications in general?

My final complaint with CAD software in general, and most definitely with KiCad in particular, is that every lesson about UI usability learned over the past 35 years since we started using GUIs seems to get ignored. Lessons about modality, non-modality, presenting information consistently, making common operations easy and so on, real basic stuff. It is as difficult to place a resistor in KiCad, something you will do dozens of times in a schematic, as it is to place an obscure seldom used component, it ought to be easy to do the common things quickly, not at exactly the same level of complexity as it is to do an uncommon thing.

[PlainName]

Keep in mind that KiCAD is not Windows software, it is a cross-platform software

Yes, but Microsoft invested a lot in usability studies and got it pretty much spot on while Apple/Linux were learning from mistakes. It is not being partisan to say "Do it like the one that works"

User interfaces are an entire engineering and design discipline by themselves.

Indeed. And ideally should be treated that way. Would you let a web developer program your IoT hardware (probably with node.js or something)?

[ebastler]

Yes, but Microsoft invested a lot in usability studies and got it pretty much spot on while Apple/Linux were learning from mistakes.

BRACE! BRACE! BRACE!

 

[delfinom]

It's one thing to say "this is terrible". It's another to say "This is terrible, this is my suggested alternative solution

The click-drag-release is terrible. My suggestion is to copy any Microsoft Windows app: click-drag to select, leave selected but free the mouse. Only if the left button is pressed inside the selection should the selection be dragged or moved.

Bearing in mind your earlier comment I just tried this again now. You can click on something to select and then choose M or whatever to move. Why? Why not just let the thing be dragged with a left mouse button drag? Anyway, I then did a drag select (left mouse button, drag the cursor across the objects to select - this is a 'block select') and then released the mouse button. Moving the mouse dragged the selected objects.

So:

1. Only drag/move when the left mouse button is being pressed

2. When the left mouse button is being pressed, drag/move whatever is under it if it's selected.

Like I said, the behavior was changed altogether in the nightlies to be identical between schematic and pcb editor, along with substanial changes to event processing.

You can obtain a nightly from here (scroll to the bottom for latest)
https://kicad-downloads.s3.cern.ch/index.html?prefix=windows/nightly/

But be warned that this is the development version and it should not be used for new designs yet.


> Why? Why not just let the thing be dragged with a left mouse button drag?

Ok.
So I'm trying to understand your description which I can now read better because claiming this is "Windows behavior" made no sense at all.
Are you saying you want to click on items and while still holding the mouse button be able to immediately drag it?

[ebastler]

> Why? Why not just let the thing be dragged with a left mouse button drag?

Ok.
So I'm trying to understand your description which I can now read better because claiming this is "Windows behavior" made no sense at all.
Are you saying you want to click on items and while still holding the mouse button be able to immediately drag it?

dunkemhigh's earlier description seems very clear to me. It's how things work in any standard Windows application, and as far as I am aware also on MacOS and (most?) Linux GUIs:

My suggestion is to copy any Microsoft Windows app: click-drag to select, leave selected but free the mouse. Only if the left button is pressed inside the selection should the selection be dragged or moved.

[PlainName]

Are you saying you want to click on items and while still holding the mouse button be able to immediately drag i

Yes.

[sleemanj]

@dunkemhigh

If you are just looking for a more intuitive package, just download DipTrace, yeah it's not open source, but the free download version is quite sufficient for hobbiests, it's not tied to the cloud so nobody can take it away from you, and if you need more then it's not that expensive to buy - especially the pricing for non profit hobbiests

It works mostly like you expect it should work.

Here is a screen capture I made spending less than 5 minutes to do a very crude demo for you.  I used the keyboard twice, once to enter "10k" and once to CTRL-R rotate the led, everything else just mouse exactly like you expect, want to place a component pick it from the side pane and drop it where you want, want to move a thing, click and drag, want to draw a wire, click and click, want to cancel drawing a wire, right click, want to move stuff without breaking connections, just click drag, want to move a bunch of stuff click-drag to select all the stuff you want to select, and then click-drag to move the selected stuff, mouse wheel to zoom in/out, middle button to pan.  The components I used are from my own custom library, which is another bonus of DipTrace the component (and footprint for pcb) editor is just as intuitive making it very easy to make your own library how you want it.