From Eagle to KiCad - Is it worth it?

[ppTRN]

Hi,
I am an Eagle user, and it seems to me that it is a whidely spread opinion that since it was held to Autodesk it is not receiving the - how can I call it -  "necessary attention". I use eagle both for work and for education (I am a teacher), so having a full license is not an issue.

Now the big question. Would you suggest me to INVEST TIME AND ENERGY in switching to KiCad?

I am not asking this question lightely, i know that learning KiCad is going to take time and effort, so i would expect some kind of return in the long term. Speaking of "long term", another reason i am tempted to switch to KiCad is that updates seems to be more frequent and consistent.

Thank you.

[ataradov]

You don't really have an option (apart from switching to something else). Eagle is officially dead. The only path forward is the Fusion 360 integrated version, but as they admitted themselves, it is mostly a complete rewrite.

I was a heavy Eagle user and I did the switch around the time KiCad v6 was released. It was not painful at all. It took some time to figure out where the things are. And I would not switch back even if Eagle somehow became relevant again. KiCad is just better.

In education setting Fusion 360 may be a good option too, but it still won't be the old Eagle, so you would have to learn new stuff anyway. And in that case might as well use KiCad.

[SiliconWizard]

You don't really have an option (apart from switching to something else). Eagle is officially dead. The only path forward is the Fusion 360 integrated version, but as they admitted themselves, it is mostly a complete rewrite.

Yeah. I remember having claimed that a while ago (maybe one or two years ago?) and got some pretty strong reactions.
But history is showing we were right.

I was a heavy Eagle user and I did the switch around the time KiCad v6 was released. It was not painful at all. It took some time to figure out where the things are. And I would not switch back even if Eagle somehow became relevant again. KiCad is just better.

In education setting Fusion 360 may be a good option too, but it still won't be the old Eagle, so you would have to learn new stuff anyway. And in that case might as well use KiCad.

I never liked Eagle and fortunately haven't had to use it myself in ages - except for just viewing designs.

But I have used Altium and Cadstar extensively, and switched to KiCad 6 a few months ago. I already had some experience with KiCad, but of course there are some quirks you'll learn along the way, as with any other CAD program.

For switching, the most painful part, which is not specific to KiCad, are the libraries. If you are a long-term user of Eagle, you probably have large libraries of parts that you have built and validated over time, and you'll have to more or less start from scratch again. Also, don't trust third-party libraries too much, always check. There's a LOT of dodgy KiCad symbols and footprints out there.

[ataradov]

Yeah. I remember having claimed that a while ago (maybe one or two years ago?) and got some pretty strong reactions.
But history is showing we were right.

At this point they explicitly stated that in their forum post. So, this is not a speculation or a guess anymore, it is a fact.

For switching, the most painful part, which is not specific to KiCad, are the libraries. If you are a long-term user of Eagle, you probably have large libraries of parts that you have built and validated over time, and you'll have to more or less start from scratch again.

I only use my own libraries and that was the first thing I did - migrate all my libraries (apart from a few devices that were only useful in a single project long time ago). It took about a week. But it also gave me an opportunity to clean up my graphics and general library structure. And doing that gave me a lot of training to get used to editing features, grid behaviour and stuff like that.

Thankfully both systems use plain text files for the libraries, so the pin assignments and other really critical parts were done in the text editor, where it is much harder to make an error and the process is pretty fast.

[ppTRN]

That's it then. So sad to watch such a powerful software just die. But I guess that's the price for progress. Since we're here, any suggestion on where to start? Phil's Lab youtube channel often posts videos of entire boards designed with KiCad. I may start there.
As you said, the main problem is just to learn again how to quickly find commands and, most importantly, learn to design components that are not in any built in library

[Benta]

@atadarov and @SiliconWizard:
Excellent points that reflect my experiences 100% as well.
Thanks.

[Benta]

Since we're here, any suggestion on where to start?

https://forum.kicad.info/
Check the FAQs (top of page) first, then get an overview of the threads running. Friendly and helpful forum.

[ataradov]

Since we're here, any suggestion on where to start?

I'm not aware of any tutorials. At the time v6 was just released and most of the material was about v5, and they have some substantial differences in the workflow. So, I just started working on a random board with a microcontroller and a few Buttons/LEDs to have some concrete project. And the rest I was just googling or asking as I went. This let me start building up the libraries with basic components as well .

[SiliconWizard]

There are video tutorials on YT, with varying quality.

But your best bet is to start with the official documentation:
https://docs.kicad.org/

The forum mentioned above is also a good resource.

[Benta]

BTW, there is one limitation you need to know before opting for KiCAD:
The philosophy/flow is laid out as one project -> one PCB, which works perfectly.
If you need a system that will handle daughter boards with backplanes, modules etc.; it can be done but is really kludgy and tortuous.
That's the main decision factor (to me, at least).

[retiredfeline]

Just make sure that you view videos that are about v6. There are a lot of old videos out there are about v5 or worse v4, and you'll be confused when the screen doesn't match the video or there are better ways to do things now.

[Doctorandus_P]

Would you suggest me to INVEST TIME AND ENERGY in switching to KiCad?

Another wholehearted yes. KiCad is definitely worth investing some time and energy to learn.

I switched to Linux about 7 years ago and was in need of a PCB design program and I took some trials with about any program I could find that worked on Linux. I tried eagle back then but I did not like it. The forth or so program I tried was KiCad, and I liked it so much that I did not even look at the last of the other options. I just staid with KiCad. Part of that decision is that I like open source software a lot. I rather donate to open source projects I like, than pay in advance for commercial software. It did have some serious limitations back then, but there is quite a lot of development in KiCad, and the development of KiCad has also been increasing significantly over the last few years.

KiCad V7 is also just around the corner. (Release expected end of January) There is a long thread on the new features in the Post V6 thread on the KiCad user forum:
https://forum.kicad.info/t/post-v6-new-features-and-development-news/32633

There are now 84 posts in that thread of announcements of new features, and that is just from a single year of development.

Because I have been KiCad now for quite some years I don't look at beginners tutorials much, but I've seen parts of severaly youtube video's and they seem to cover most of the basic workflow quite decently. They also miss out on some nice KiCad features that are less obvious (such as repetition with the >[Ins] key. The KiCad like a pro book from Peter Dalmaris may be worth it's money.

https://techexplorations.com/so/kicad-like-a-pro-3rd-edition/
And you may be able to use his course material in your classroom.

The KiCad site itself also has some pointers to learning resources:

https://www.kicad.org/help/learning-resources/

[nctnico]

Hi,
I am an Eagle user, and it seems to me that it is a whidely spread opinion that since it was held to Autodesk it is not receiving the - how can I call it -  "necessary attention". I use eagle both for work and for education (I am a teacher), so having a full license is not an issue.

Now the big question. Would you suggest me to INVEST TIME AND ENERGY in switching to KiCad?

Maybe take a step back: why Kicad specifically? Do you need a low cost package? And who are you educating? Perhaps your students will be better off using a commonly used commercial package that gets them a headstart at their first job. IOW: I'd investigate where your students are likely to end up, figure out which software is commonly used and get an educational license for that software.

[james_s]

Maybe take a step back: why Kicad specifically? Do you need a low cost package? And who are you educating? Perhaps your students will be better off using a commonly used commercial package that gets them a headstart at their first job. IOW: I'd investigate where your students are likely to end up, figure out which software is commonly used and get an educational license for that software.

KiCad is free, students that use it at school can install and use it on their own personal machines, that is a HUGE advantage in this scenario. If they go on to do PCB work professionally they can learn Altium or whatever easily enough. I tried out a lot of EDAs when I got started and found the workflow is broadly the same for all of them, once you know the workflow learning a new tool is just a matter of learning the quirks.

[ppTRN]

Wow, didn't expect such strong opinions. Anyway, i think I should clarify more about the reasons of migrating TO KiCad. I teach in an high school, so the free option is great, and KiCad seems to be more "student friendly" than others such Altium or Proteus. More about my personal jobs: I usualy stick to simple design, small pcb with uC and a little bit of discrete components. The doubt I am start to having are about my future professional life! What if i seriously start making more advanced PCB? Altium or OrCad might be more useful, but learning how to use them will take a lot more effort than KiCad. Also, I am still studying Electronic Engeneering so i migh be able to get free year-to-year renouvable license for Altium.

Anyhow, getting away from EAGLE seems to be the only thing you can all agree upon.

[LazyJack]

Exactly. I used OrCAD, Protel - Altium a lot. Once I decided to try KiCAD with version 5, I had my first PCB designed by evening that day. So if you know the way EDA tools work in general, you'll have no problem using any of them. Sure, it will take a lot of time to be master in the specific tool, but you start with simple projects and gradually build up. The most pain is libraries and old projects, but that is not really KiCAD's fault, you have this problem any time you change a tool.
However, since KiCAD is available to anyone, there are not restrictions like pin count or layers and it is multiplatform I think it is ideal for education purposes. Sure there may not be extensive (but not neccesarily good quaility) training material or documentation like commercial packages may have, but frankly, I think part of studying and becaming an engineer is to be able to figure out stuff.
KiCAD is absolutely fine for teaching the EDA workflow, so I say go for it. 

[djsb]

I mostly use Kicad, but also have a personal perpetual Licence for Altium 21.4.1. I work in a UK university, and we also just use KiCad for our 3rd year embedded systems class. Students are able to work on their PCB design's OUTSIDE the formal classes and make use of YouTube Video's for learning. It also helps that I've also been using KiCad for over 15 years and can help students with support. All of our PCB designs for hardware in our classes are also made with KiCad. It took a while to get KiCad on our PC's but I kept pushing for adoption and now it's worked out fine.
It also helps that Kicad 7.0 is able to import both Altium schematic AND PCB design files as well as Eagle (which I have not used much). Version 7 is currently in release candidate stage (RC1 so far) and is heading for final release at the end of January. The release candidates can be downloaded from here https://kicad-downloads.s3.cern.ch/index.html?prefix=windows/nightly/

HTH.

[nctnico]

Maybe take a step back: why Kicad specifically? Do you need a low cost package? And who are you educating? Perhaps your students will be better off using a commonly used commercial package that gets them a headstart at their first job. IOW: I'd investigate where your students are likely to end up, figure out which software is commonly used and get an educational license for that software.

KiCad is free, students that use it at school can install and use it on their own personal machines, that is a HUGE advantage in this scenario.

I don't know about Orcad but Altium has free student licenses as well so there is no difference there.
Edit: Both Orcad and Altium have free student licenses as well so there is no difference there.

It is about the end goal. Is the goal to learn the students to use a professional CAD tool that they likely encounter at their first job? OR is it all about having a quick way to get some boards designed? For the first Altium / Orcad are good options, for the latter Kicad is likely a better fit (but don't go around thinking you'll find Kicad at places where they do a serious amount of design work). With just Kicad under the belt, a student will have a harder time getting a job that requires CAD skills compared to having some Orcad / Altium experience (or whatever is popular in Italy). Despite all the fanboyism you have to stay realistic.

When I started my EE study, I was thaught Orcad and have been using Orcad for the majority of the designs I have done because most of the employers I have worked for used Orcad.

[Doctorandus_P]

The doubt I am start to having are about my future professional life! What if i seriously start making more advanced PCB?

What sort of complexity do you have in mind? On: https://www.kicad.org/made-with-kicad/ you can see about 50 designs made with KiCad, and several have much more complexity then I would ever need to make myself.

Altium also already claims to have KiCad import, and as KiCad is getting more popular, other programs are also more likely to get import functionality for KiCad files. Because of it's Open Source philosophy and documented file types, KiCad files are relatively easy to import. As of V6 all of KiCad's files are standard S-expressions, and this means that getting a KiCad design file into memory is just a few lines of code and this also helps a lot with writing an importer.

I don't agree with this:

Perhaps your students will be better off using a commonly used commercial package that gets them a headstart at their first job. IOW:

For students, it's not about learning some PCB program, it's about the principles of schematic and PCB design and how the parts all fit together. Influences of GND planes and routing, etc. In the end the program itself is just a tool, and Once you've learned how to design a proper PCB, then switching to another program is relatively easy.

I also have very strong feelings about Open Source software and the philosophy behind it. Especially in educational settings it is a huge advantage if the students can freely install and use the software for self study.

I also do not give much credit to "free student licenses" of commercial software, especially when they are temporary. It's unlikely students will go from university straight to a PCB design job. With Open Source software they can keep on using the software (and get updates) indefinitely, and this makes it easier to keep on using the program for hobby purposes, and in turn this keeps the learned skills current.

[nctnico]

I don't agree with this:

Perhaps your students will be better off using a commonly used commercial package that gets them a headstart at their first job. IOW:

For students, it's not about learning some PCB program, it's about the principles of schematic and PCB design and how the parts all fit together. Influences of GND planes and routing, etc. In the end the program itself is just a tool, and Once you've learned how to design a proper PCB, then switching to another program is relatively easy.

That is a fatal way of thinking especially where it comes to electronics CAD software. Every piece of electronics CAD software I have come across works fundamentally different even though the output requirements are the same. The only thing you know is that something should be possible but the differences between the software is like night and day. Naming conventions are slightly different etc. I have been designing boards using a computer for over 30 years now and every time I switched to a different package, there is a huge learning curve taking 200 to 300 hours before getting to a level where I can use a piece of software efficiently. Again, if somebody already has a couple of hundred hours under the belt with a specific package, that person will have a huge advantage over other applicants applying for the same job.

[Doctorandus_P]

I have been designing boards using a computer for over 30 years now and every time I switched to a different package, there is a huge learning curve taking 200 to 300 hours before getting to a level where I can use a piece of software efficiently. Again, if somebody already has a couple of hundred hours under the belt with a specific package, the person will have a huge advantage over other applicants.

I also designed my first PCB over 30 years ago. That does not mean much apart from your implied age. I don't know at what level these students to reach in PCB design, but it's unlikely they will spend more then 20 to 50 hours on schematics and PCB design. When I started with KiCad (about 7 or 8 years ago) the "Getting Started in KiCad V4." guide was excellent, and I designed my first PCB with KiCad in the same afternoon I installed it for the first time. It does indeed take much more time to get to know all the little details, accelerator keys and tricks to work efficiently with a program, but are the students expected to spend that much time with it?

Another thing that is easy to look over if you've designed PCB's for 30 years is how you got started. Drawing a schematic in a logical way, so it's easy to read for others too. Matching schematic symbols with PCB footprints, Importance of GND planes, differential pair routing, length matching, getting stuck by not leaving enough PCB area for tracks, EMC considerations during PCB design. All those and more are things that first time students have to learn too, and that knowledge is more important than knowing which buttons to push in a certain PCB design program.

[ppTRN]

My goal as a teacher is not to teach students how to use a specific EDA that they will likely find at work, but it is to explain all the rules in pcb designs and the manufactury process.

The doubt I am start to having are about my future professional life! What if i seriously start making more advanced PCB?

What sort of complexity do you have in mind? On: https://www.kicad.org/made-with-kicad/ you can see about 50 designs made with KiCad, and several have much more complexity then I would ever need to make myself.

The design proposed pretty much reflect my needs, if not even more.

[tchiwam]

Here's a few quirks Kicad has

• Inner layer vs Outer layer / per layer net definition on the PCB is all manual
• Passing differential busses with P N endings are not possible in [] making for very long Hierarchy connectors.
• Impedance control using board stack up is rather limited and very manual

For what you are doing, none of these should affect you.

[ppTRN]

And what about sincronization with other devices? Using eagle i simply sync the EAGLE folder in MEGA and add the sincronization in all the PC i need. Does KiCad offer an embedded solution?
Other than this, i guess that it will be my job (other than my pleasure actually) to doscover all of its features.

[Karel]

Like many others, I use Git to do that (I did it for Eagle and now I do it as well for KiCad).