Author Topic: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)  (Read 64144 times)

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Offline delfinom

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #400 on: January 19, 2022, 01:32:09 pm »
ngspice is fine, even EAGLE/autodesk have integrated it...not that it's saying anything but hey, it works and there's not much alternative because of how extremely niche and high level mathematics the simulators are.
v6 fixes some bugs and tweak but it's not much of an change over v5 I think.

However, there is now a maintainer for the simulator and he has big plans for v7, and potentially alot more awesome goodies ;)

Even Altium has switched to ngspice: https://resources.altium.com/p/a-first-look-at-altium-designer-20. I hope some of these companies adopting ngspice throw in some resources to the developers.

Very glad to hear that there are big plans for including simulation in KiCad. I hope they focus on smoothing the workflow and output graphs first. I will keep an eye out.
Well, being able to use a component database should come first. That is the most important feature (that is still missing) to be able to use KiCad professionally for real.

The few people planning to work on the simulator are also ones that have no interest in the component database.
There is someone else throwing around that feature for v7, whether it makes it in or not is a different story


We are a open source project, nobody is forced to work on things they don't have interest in. Unlike a job where you have to suck it up and do it  ;)
« Last Edit: January 19, 2022, 01:37:38 pm by delfinom »
 

Offline Uky

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #401 on: January 19, 2022, 04:39:34 pm »
IMHO: Having a decent interface that can import or export things are the most valuable feature of any CAE software.
Adding propertys to a schematic drawing and then being able to export a netlist to an external tool such as a Spice
simulator would take some efforts out of having to write such a software within a suite.

Importing propertys from external sources as well. It would perhaps be better if KiCAD made it possible to connect
to an external database software. There are several free versions of eg. SQL than to create a proprietary system.

Flexibility is worth a lot!
 

Online nctnico

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #402 on: January 19, 2022, 05:30:55 pm »
ngspice is fine, even EAGLE/autodesk have integrated it...not that it's saying anything but hey, it works and there's not much alternative because of how extremely niche and high level mathematics the simulators are.
v6 fixes some bugs and tweak but it's not much of an change over v5 I think.

However, there is now a maintainer for the simulator and he has big plans for v7, and potentially alot more awesome goodies ;)

Even Altium has switched to ngspice: https://resources.altium.com/p/a-first-look-at-altium-designer-20. I hope some of these companies adopting ngspice throw in some resources to the developers.

Very glad to hear that there are big plans for including simulation in KiCad. I hope they focus on smoothing the workflow and output graphs first. I will keep an eye out.
Well, being able to use a component database should come first. That is the most important feature (that is still missing) to be able to use KiCad professionally for real.

The few people planning to work on the simulator are also ones that have no interest in the component database.
There is someone else throwing around that feature for v7, whether it makes it in or not is a different story


We are a open source project, nobody is forced to work on things they don't have interest in. Unlike a job where you have to suck it up and do it  ;)
I get that but having a database driven component management system would propel Kicad up to the level where Altium and Orcad are. Simulation is kinda meh. With free software like Ltspice and Microcap being around, simulation is pretty well served already.

You are not going to use one schematic for both a circuit board and simulation anyway because simulation often needs the use of dummy/extra components. Also having excess components slows simulation down so typically you only simulate parts of a circuit. IOW: don't fall into the trap thinking that having simulation integrated saves time for drawing a schematic twice; it doesn't.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2022, 05:35:14 pm by nctnico »
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Offline Bassman59

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #403 on: January 19, 2022, 06:37:31 pm »
ngspice is fine, even EAGLE/autodesk have integrated it...not that it's saying anything but hey, it works and there's not much alternative because of how extremely niche and high level mathematics the simulators are.
v6 fixes some bugs and tweak but it's not much of an change over v5 I think.

However, there is now a maintainer for the simulator and he has big plans for v7, and potentially alot more awesome goodies ;)

Even Altium has switched to ngspice: https://resources.altium.com/p/a-first-look-at-altium-designer-20. I hope some of these companies adopting ngspice throw in some resources to the developers.

Very glad to hear that there are big plans for including simulation in KiCad. I hope they focus on smoothing the workflow and output graphs first. I will keep an eye out.
Well, being able to use a component database should come first. That is the most important feature (that is still missing) to be able to use KiCad professionally for real.

The few people planning to work on the simulator are also ones that have no interest in the component database.
There is someone else throwing around that feature for v7, whether it makes it in or not is a different story


We are a open source project, nobody is forced to work on things they don't have interest in. Unlike a job where you have to suck it up and do it  ;)
I get that but having a database driven component management system would propel Kicad up to the level where Altium and Orcad are. Simulation is kinda meh. With free software like Ltspice and Microcap being around, simulation is pretty well served already.

You are not going to use one schematic for both a circuit board and simulation anyway because simulation often needs the use of dummy/extra components. Also having excess components slows simulation down so typically you only simulate parts of a circuit. IOW: don't fall into the trap thinking that having simulation integrated saves time for drawing a schematic twice; it doesn't.

I agree in principle that a database-driven library system would be a worthwhile addition to the Kicad feature set.

But out of everyone who says "Kicad needs database libraries!" zero of them have been willing to step up and write a description of what that actually means and offer a design proposal for discussion.

And since none of the database enthusiasts have done so, the developers have continued fixing and refining the program's main functionality.

Is anyone willing to start that discussion with the developers on the Gitlab site or the mailing list, or will it just remain on forums?
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #404 on: January 19, 2022, 07:09:24 pm »
As the reply of delfinom already indicates; the developers of Kicad seem to be unaware of the huge value of having a database driven component system. Love has to come from both sides...

A couple of years ago I have seriously considered of shelling out several k euro for someone to add a database driven component system to Kicad. However my (bad) experience with contributing to other open source projects has made me decide not to go this route. If there is no love from the core team for a feature then it won't be maintained and it is likely to be abandoned in future versions. So I spend the money at the local Orcad distributor.

AFAIK there is a specification for what a database driven component system for Kicad should look like and IIRC it looks pretty complete. And it is not like this is something new; I have been using Orcad with a database driven component system for 20+ years. There is tons of information from Altium and Orcad on how such a system should work. Copy & paste
« Last Edit: January 19, 2022, 07:12:34 pm by nctnico »
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Offline John B

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #405 on: January 19, 2022, 08:05:18 pm »
In KiCad 5, I used a plugin to duplicate PCB footprint layouts based on hierarchical sheets:

https://github.com/MitjaNemec/Kicad_action_plugins

Are there any other options with KiCad 6, or just hang tight till there's some plugins available?
 

Offline delfinom

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #406 on: January 19, 2022, 08:33:31 pm »
As the reply of delfinom already indicates; the developers of Kicad seem to be unaware of the huge value of having a database driven component system. Love has to come from both sides...

A couple of years ago I have seriously considered of shelling out several k euro for someone to add a database driven component system to Kicad. However my (bad) experience with contributing to other open source projects has made me decide not to go this route. If there is no love from the core team for a feature then it won't be maintained and it is likely to be abandoned in future versions. So I spend the money at the local Orcad distributor.

AFAIK there is a specification for what a database driven component system for Kicad should look like and IIRC it looks pretty complete. And it is not like this is something new; I have been using Orcad with a database driven component system for 20+ years. There is tons of information from Altium and Orcad on how such a system should work. Copy & paste

Again, if you actually read my post. There is already somebody planning to work on it.
There are others planning work on the simulator.

You don't have a carpenter do your plumbing. The same thing applies here. Otherwise, they both can use hand tools, so why can't they do either job ;)  The only thing I can otherwise say is you are just being disrespectful of programmers if you are trying to say "why don't they all work on this to serve me", abstract organizational tooling is the same as linear algebra in spice right?

Is anyone willing to start that discussion with the developers on the Gitlab site or the mailing list, or will it just remain on forums?

I wouldn't worry about it. It's been brought up on the mailing list before and it usually dies off for the same reason, people who make no code contribution argue in endless circles. Design by committee almost never works or else you just get USB 3.2 2x2 Extreme Edition. The gitlab issue is open here: https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/7436

Since the Jon assigned it to himself, it'll probably get done for v7 ;)
« Last Edit: January 19, 2022, 08:44:26 pm by delfinom »
 

Online dunkemhigh

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #407 on: January 19, 2022, 09:04:37 pm »
Quote
you are just being disrespectful of programmers if you are trying to say "why don't they all work on this to serve me"

But that isn't what they are saying. They are actually saying that if you want the product to appeal to the end user, and be treated as a grown-up product, it needs to do such and such. Being open source and all that, the developers are free to do whatever their desire dictates, but then they shouldn't be surprised if the end result doesn't appeal too much.

What if one is not a programmer, or not a programmer of desktop programs, or not a programmer of the language du jour? Are suggestions/requirements automatically void because you can't implement them yourself? How about if you've contributed with funds - does that make you more or less worthy than someone who's contributed a lot of code that wasn't up to scratch and got rejected?
 

Online nctnico

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #408 on: January 19, 2022, 09:14:49 pm »
Quote
you are just being disrespectful of programmers if you are trying to say "why don't they all work on this to serve me"

But that isn't what they are saying. They are actually saying that if you want the product to appeal to the end user, and be treated as a grown-up product, it needs to do such and such. Being open source and all that, the developers are free to do whatever their desire dictates, but then they shouldn't be surprised if the end result doesn't appeal too much.
Precisely! As an outsider looking in I'm simply stating what is missing. It is up to the developers to pick it up or not.

From https://www.kicad.org/about/kicad/
Mission Statement
The goal of the KiCad project is to provide the best possible cross platform electronics design application for professional electronics designers. Every effort is made to hide the complexity of advanced design features so that KiCad remains approachable by new and inexperienced users, but when determining the direction of the project and the priority of new features, the needs of professional users take precedence.


Professional users need a database driven component system so why hasn't this been implemented yet? And why get hostile towards people pointing that out?  >:D The so typical  'do it yourself if you want this feature' response is getting a bit old.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2022, 09:52:44 pm by nctnico »
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Online Cerebus

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #409 on: January 19, 2022, 09:59:12 pm »
Professional users need a database driven component system so why hasn't this been implemented yet? And why get hostile towards people pointing that out?  >:D

This seems to be the KiCad ethos, at least as put forward by KiCad people I have seen commenting on the EEVBlog forum. There seems to be a general antipathy from them towards experienced electronics professionals remarking on what an electronics CAD tool needs. The usual final retort is "well if you want that why don't you contribute" where contribute means "write code" completely ignoring that contributing requirements and insights is also contributing.

The problem with these kind of projects is that people work on what they want to, what interests them, rather than what is needed. That's the nature of the beast and it would take much cannier project management than you ever see to steer the ship in the direction of doing "what's needed" rather than "what Johnny, who can do this, feels like playing with". Case in point, I see "linear algebra" mentioned above. That suggests to me that someone who wants to write their own circuit simulator from scratch is working on the simulation side of things, because you need to know next to nothing about linear algebra to improve the integration with existing simulation tools such as ngspice.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline sethhillbrand

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #410 on: January 20, 2022, 12:23:58 am »

This seems to be the KiCad ethos, at least as put forward by KiCad people I have seen commenting on the EEVBlog forum. There seems to be a general antipathy from them towards experienced electronics professionals remarking on what an electronics CAD tool needs. The usual final retort is "well if you want that why don't you contribute" where contribute means "write code" completely ignoring that contributing requirements and insights is also contributing.


Just a quick note as a "KiCad person".  No lead developer of KiCad would ever take this approach.  We actively seek out experienced users and mine them for ideas about what would help their workflows.  We maintain a contact sheet with large design houses to identify where their pain points are when using KiCad and actively work to remove these.

Now, KiCad users posting on eevblog forums are another story.  They are welcome to broadcast any sort of provocative talk they like.  That doesn't represent the KiCad project.  If you are a professional CAD designer/engineer, we would welcome your input.  This doesn't happen on forum postings, though.  You can post issues on GitLab and we can arrange offline contact options as well to facilitate the sort of information exchange that we need to improve the system for everyone.
 
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Offline RoGeorge

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #411 on: January 20, 2022, 01:17:33 am »

This seems to be the KiCad ethos, at least as put forward by KiCad people I have seen commenting on the EEVBlog forum. There seems to be a general antipathy from them towards experienced electronics professionals remarking on what an electronics CAD tool needs. The usual final retort is "well if you want that why don't you contribute" where contribute means "write code" completely ignoring that contributing requirements and insights is also contributing.


Just a quick note as a "KiCad person".  No lead developer of KiCad would ever take this approach.  We actively seek out experienced users and mine them for ideas about what would help their workflows.  We maintain a contact sheet with large design houses to identify where their pain points are when using KiCad and actively work to remove these.

Now, KiCad users posting on eevblog forums are another story.  They are welcome to broadcast any sort of provocative talk they like.  That doesn't represent the KiCad project.  If you are a professional CAD designer/engineer, we would welcome your input.  This doesn't happen on forum postings, though.  You can post issues on GitLab and we can arrange offline contact options as well to facilitate the sort of information exchange that we need to improve the system for everyone.

That's a very complicated way to say "KiCad devs don't give a dead rat about what you all are talking here", because forums are usually lame, therefore you all must be noobs talking bollocks.

Offline fourfathom

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #412 on: January 20, 2022, 01:34:15 am »
If you are a professional CAD designer/engineer, we would welcome your input.

OK.  Since this seems to be how KiCad wants to plan future enhancements, does anyone here (EEVblog) want to engage on the component database issue, via GitLab or elsewhere? 

Not me though.  I'm a retired EE and we had CAD people to do the boards and component people to manage the database, so I don't know any of the details.  But I do know that I would like to be able to integrate my personal component database into my KiCad design flow.  I would be happy to change out my database if that's what it took.
 

Online Cerebus

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #413 on: January 20, 2022, 02:16:57 am »
That's a very complicated way to say "KiCad devs don't give a dead rat about what you all are talking here", because forums are usually lame, therefore you all must be noobs talking bollocks.

That's a rather jaundiced view, but given the tenor of one of the other 9 contributions in total that sethhillbrand has made here I'm not sure that it's necessarily unjustified.

You know I would pay for Kicad if the paid option was for a useable interace.

OK.

https://giving.web.cern.ch/civicrm/contribute/transact?reset=1&id=6

That glib quip isn't what I'll call a highly valuable contribution from someone who presents themselves as in a position to influence KiCad's direction, especially when it makes up 11% of someone's posting to date.

The EEVBlog forum probably presents the highest concentration of EEs online. Unlike some other electronics fora it's not loaded with incentives to gain points or popularity which can heavily influence who makes contributions and why. Here you only speak up if you think you've something to contribute, and don't get a little dopamine rush of contributor points for doing so. I think that makes this a very valuable place to gather opinions, ideas, and use as a sounding board. If it was me, and I was genuinely looking for input I'd try and find a way to leverage that, rather than direct people towards vaguely defined routes to contribute and hint at privileged access to "large design houses".

I find it all rather unconvincing. People all over the place have been bitching, justifiably, about the KiCad UI for ages. In 6.0 they've cleaned a lot up, but tab ordering is still random and crazy (especially for a hotkey centric app), keystrokes still do different things in different places, and so on. If anyone was actually interested in listening and acting on what they hear those niggles would have been fixed ages ago.

I wish I could find more positive things to say, but every time I start discussing KiCad (like pointing out the embarrassing release of 6.0 with big chunks of basic documentation missing) I get faced with someone whose only answer is to ignore the criticisms and fall back on "Why don't you go off and fix it?". Not everybody who has a criticism, insight, suggestion or whatever has the skillset to "Go and fix it.". Similarly, sethhillbrand's remarks don't sound like "OK. Go ahead, I'm listening" but a handwaving "If you are a professional CAD designer/engineer, we would welcome your input." followed by "You can post issues on GitLab and we can arrange offline contact options as well to facilitate the sort of information exchange that we need to improve the system for everyone.". As I've read through quite a lot of other people's KiCad tickets on exactly the issues that I find pain points I've noticed that they tend to just get closed, not acted on, no matter how much effort someone has put into authoring the ticket. Thus I'm inclined to be highly reluctant to go and waste a few hours on creating tickets just to find them quietly and unaccountably closed a while later.

People don't want to write tickets that they suspect might quietly close without action, they don't want to engage in an "offline contact option"*  to participate in a "facilitated information exchange"*. They want to talk, and be listened to.



*Do I need to point out that those phrases sound like bullshit? Maybe they are, maybe they aren't, but they sound like it.

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Online Ed.Kloonk

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #414 on: January 20, 2022, 02:28:28 am »
Keep in mind as a dev of open source, you start a project because of what else is around that bugs you. Sometimes, it's just one thing that annoys you so much you make the start. The problem is these things grow legs and turn into a monster.
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Offline delfinom

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #415 on: January 20, 2022, 04:12:30 am »
The problem with these kind of projects is that people work on what they want to, what interests them, rather than what is needed. That's the nature of the beast and it would take much cannier project management than you ever see to steer the ship in the direction of doing "what's needed"

That's the problem my dude. This isn't a commercial entity, the majority aren't paid to do this work and it would be unreasonable to demand that kind of compliance. People do this as a hobby, not a second job that pays nothing. There are certain reasonable expectations as a result.

Quote
I get faced with someone whose only answer is to ignore the criticisms and fall back on "Why don't you go off and fix it?". Not everybody who has a criticism, insight, suggestion or whatever has the skillset to "Go and fix it."

I'm really confused why you are going on this tangent. I have not seen any of this in this thread.

Quote
I've noticed that they tend to just get closed, not acted on, no matter how much effort someone has put into authoring the ticket

* citation required

If you haven't noticed there's a large pile of issues, and we aren't here to provide customer support. Crashes get fixed first, bugs get fixed second, then there is staring at wishlight items over time which can be months or years unforunately as there is not enough manpower or time to do everything.

Also v6 had rocky development, it was in development for too long, it was in feature freeze for too long and the result is that wishlist pile was ignored even longer.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2022, 04:16:47 am by delfinom »
 

Online Cerebus

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #416 on: January 20, 2022, 05:00:16 am »
Quote
I get faced with someone whose only answer is to ignore the criticisms and fall back on "Why don't you go off and fix it?". Not everybody who has a criticism, insight, suggestion or whatever has the skillset to "Go and fix it."

I'm really confused why you are going on this tangent. I have not seen any of this in this thread.

It's a recurring theme. Just because it hasn't happened in this thread doesn't mean it hasn't happened, and moreover happened often enough in front of me to form the opinion that it is stereotypical behaviour.

Quote

Quote
I've noticed that they tend to just get closed, not acted on, no matter how much effort someone has put into authoring the ticket

* citation required

If you haven't noticed there's a large pile of issues, and we aren't here to provide customer support. Crashes get fixed first, bugs get fixed second, then there is staring at wishlight items over time which can be months or years unforunately as there is not enough manpower or time to do everything.

I'm not going to spend 2 hours finding an example in the 8,842 closed issues, or weeks monitoring the  1,404 open issues purely to find an example just to prove a point - my time is worth more to me than that. And while I wasn't saying that sethhillbrand's "open an issue" was a deliverate brush-off, merely less than helpful, you do seem to be saying so if there are too many issues for anyone to take notice of a new one that isn't panic inducing. Which one is it? Opening an issue would be a valuable way of providing input, or it would just be ignored because there are too many? I believe that this ticking petard is yours.

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Offline thinkfat

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #417 on: January 20, 2022, 07:26:20 am »
So, summing up the arguments: "You need to do what I want and if you don't you're stupid"!
Did I get that right?
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Offline MitjaN

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #418 on: January 20, 2022, 08:40:48 am »
In KiCad 5, I used a plugin to duplicate PCB footprint layouts based on hierarchical sheets:

https://github.com/MitjaNemec/Kicad_action_plugins

Are there any other options with KiCad 6, or just hang tight till there's some plugins available?

Well I’ve started on porting the plugin, but as I’ll also refactor it, I don’t expect to finish before middle of February.

If you are in a hurry though, I believe that existing ReplicateLayout plugin from “5.99_test” branch should work with KiCad 6.0.x

 
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Offline John B

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #419 on: January 20, 2022, 09:54:19 am »
In KiCad 5, I used a plugin to duplicate PCB footprint layouts based on hierarchical sheets:

https://github.com/MitjaNemec/Kicad_action_plugins

Are there any other options with KiCad 6, or just hang tight till there's some plugins available?

Well I’ve started on porting the plugin, but as I’ll also refactor it, I don’t expect to finish before middle of February.

If you are in a hurry though, I believe that existing ReplicateLayout plugin from “5.99_test” branch should work with KiCad 6.0.x

Thanks so much for your effort (also getting the thread back on track  ;) )

I'll give the old plugin a shot.
 

Offline JohnG

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #420 on: January 20, 2022, 02:12:51 pm »
I really wish there was a "whining" or "whinging" filter for this forum...

I demand someone else do something about it!!! :popcorn:
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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #421 on: January 20, 2022, 03:28:28 pm »
So, summing up the arguments: "You need to do what I want and if you don't you're stupid"!
Did I get that right?

No, the argument is "Please listen to your users". I'm not even the one offering "do what I want suggestions" beyond "Consistent UI please" and "Please don't push it out the door with big chunks of the help file missing" which is a reasonably low bar to set for any software project.
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Online Cerebus

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #422 on: January 20, 2022, 03:30:35 pm »
I really wish there was a "whining" or "whinging" filter for this forum...

I demand someone else do something about it!!! :popcorn:

There's an "ignore user" feature. If you don't like what someone says you can use it and live in a little bubble of people that all agree with you.
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Online ebastler

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #423 on: January 20, 2022, 04:33:23 pm »
I really wish there was a "whining" or "whinging" filter for this forum...
I demand someone else do something about it!!! :popcorn:

There's an "ignore user" feature. If you don't like what someone says you can use it and live in a little bubble of people that all agree with you.

You might have your "ignore tongue-in-cheek subtext" filter still turned on?  ::)

That aside, you are putting JohnG down for a feature he did not ask for. He was not suggesting to ignore all posts from user X, but ignore all whining posts.
 

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #424 on: January 20, 2022, 04:44:03 pm »
I really wish there was a "whining" or "whinging" filter for this forum...
I demand someone else do something about it!!! :popcorn:

There's an "ignore user" feature. If you don't like what someone says you can use it and live in a little bubble of people that all agree with you.

You might have your "ignore tongue-in-cheek subtext" filter still turned on?  ::)

That aside, you are putting JohnG down for a feature he did not ask for. He was not suggesting to ignore all posts from user X, but ignore all whining posts.

You'll get that when you get a "moon on a stick, and a pony" tickbox as well.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 


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