Author Topic: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)  (Read 64149 times)

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Offline delfinom

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #425 on: January 20, 2022, 06:33:28 pm »
No, the argument is "Please listen to your users". I'm not even the one offering "do what I want suggestions" beyond "Consistent UI please" and "Please don't push it out the door with big chunks of the help file missing" which is a reasonably low bar to set for any software project.

Hahah. O god you don't know the magnitude of the whining we get with the documentation.

1. OMG IT MUST BE TRANSLATED TO 50 LANGUAGES!
2. OMG IT MUST COMPLY WITH LINUX DISTROS XYZ POLICY
3. OMG IT MUST USE ABC TOOLCHAIN AND GENERATE AN EPUB FILE COMPATIBLE WITH MY 10 YEAR OLD KINDLE

The result is, all the documentation contributors have quit and we have been left with outdated docs.
We just had a 50+ angry mailing list chain kickoff because somehow, people think we are idiots and don't know how HTML works. Also making some claims about things without even having explored the topic (Just use asciidoctor! it does PDFs just fine! yea....except it has an outstanding defect of CJK font support being broken).

We are listening but the moment anything is attmepted there's another group that goes NOT LIKE THAT.
We are trying to redo the entire documentation tooling to actually make contributors not need to have a degree in Linux System Administration to write a sentence.
 

Online Cerebus

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #426 on: January 20, 2022, 07:01:07 pm »
No, the argument is "Please listen to your users". I'm not even the one offering "do what I want suggestions" beyond "Consistent UI please" and "Please don't push it out the door with big chunks of the help file missing" which is a reasonably low bar to set for any software project.

Hahah. O god you don't know the magnitude of the whining we get with the documentation.

1. OMG IT MUST BE TRANSLATED TO 50 LANGUAGES!
2. OMG IT MUST COMPLY WITH LINUX DISTROS XYZ POLICY
3. OMG IT MUST USE ABC TOOLCHAIN AND GENERATE AN EPUB FILE COMPATIBLE WITH MY 10 YEAR OLD KINDLE

The result is, all the documentation contributors have quit and we have been left with outdated docs.
We just had a 50+ angry mailing list chain kickoff because somehow, people think we are idiots and don't know how HTML works. Also making some claims about things without even having explored the topic (Just use asciidoctor! it does PDFs just fine! yea....except it has an outstanding defect of CJK font support being broken).

We are listening but the moment anything is attmepted there's another group that goes NOT LIKE THAT.
We are trying to redo the entire documentation tooling to actually make contributors not need to have a degree in Linux System Administration to write a sentence.

My complaint is just "present, please" the current release has significant holes in it that weren't there in previous releases.

Quote from: from live "released" KiCad 6.0.1
4.3. Editing object properties
All objects have properties that are editable in a dialog. Use the hotkey E or select Properties from the right-click context menu to edit the properties of selected item(s). You can only open the properties dialog if all the items you have selected are of the same type. To edit the properties of different types of items at one time, see the section below on bulk editing tools.

In properties dialogs, any field that contains a numeric value can also accept a basic math expression that results in a numeric value. For example, a dimension may be entered as 2 * 2mm, resulting in a value of 4mm. Basic arithmetic operators as well as parentheses for defining order of operations are supported.

4.4. Working with footprints
NOTE
TODO: Write this section - covers footprint properties, updating from library, etc.
4.5. Working with pads
NOTE
TODO: Write this section - covers pad properties
4.6. Working with zones
NOTE
TODO: Write this section
4.7. Graphical objects
Graphical objects (lines, arcs, rectangles, circles, polygons, and text) can exist on any layer but cannot be assigned to a net. Rectangles, circles, and polygons can be set to be filled or outlines in their properties dialogs. The line width property will control the width of the outline even for filled shapes. Line width can be set to 0 for filled shapes to disable the outline.

4.7.1. Creating graphical shapes
NOTE
TODO: Write this section
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Online dunkemhigh

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #427 on: January 20, 2022, 07:13:42 pm »
Quote
The result is, all the documentation contributors have quit and we have been left with outdated docs.

What's needed to be able to write the docs? Other than a grasp of English :)

ISTM that even a current user might not be an appropriate person unless they have inside knowledge of how things are supposed to work. Documenting what you managed to find out through trial and error would be better than nothing, I guess, but the ideal would be to document what it's supposed to do. How would one go about getting involved in that?
 

Offline thinkfat

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #428 on: January 20, 2022, 07:29:07 pm »
So, summing up the arguments: "You need to do what I want and if you don't you're stupid"!
Did I get that right?

No, the argument is "Please listen to your users". I'm not even the one offering "do what I want suggestions" beyond "Consistent UI please" and "Please don't push it out the door with big chunks of the help file missing" which is a reasonably low bar to set for any software project.

Well, I didn't respond to you in particular, but "whom the shoe fits"...

What I got is "This release was not ready, because X", with X being of such importance it dwarfs every other achievement that makes the release a proper milestone. This is not much different from "Feature X MUST be worked on or you're stupid".
Everybody likes gadgets. Until they try to make them.
 

Offline phs

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #429 on: January 20, 2022, 07:30:14 pm »
Warning:  Long post ahead.  There is a “bottom line” towards the bottom....

Just wanted to give a tremendous thanks to the KiCad team!!  A number of years ago, we had some major projects lined up and had purchased some new seats of Altium.  The incompetent crooks at Altium (which we had been using and recommending for many years, including introducing their products to numerous Universities as well as to our own customers) screwed things up so badly that we were unable to use the new seats for many many months, and no amount of emailing or calling them helped.  Their sales director for our region at the time even told us through one of his underlings that they didn't have to compensate us in any way because he knew we'd HAVE to renew again the next year. 

HE WAS WRONG!

At that point we ended our relationship with Altium, forever.  We immediately moved to KiCad, as well as one of Altium's competitors, who was more than willing to give us a significant discount and actually had a competent customer service department.  I personally had had experience with GEDA at the time, which I still love, but at that time it seemed that significant resources had chosen to back the KiCad project.  Also, KiCad had gotten just far enough along that, especially combined with FreeCAD, it proved to be capable enough for us to save the day and complete our projects successfully -- all with KiCad and FreeCAD.  Didn't even need to use the seat of Altium's commercial competitor that we had purchased.

Of course back then there were numerous issues and inconveniences we had to learn and adjust to, and FreeCAD was also changing rapidly with a huge learning curve, but after a couple of months of very hard work, it was possible to establish an extremely capable, efficient and reliable workflow.  Being able to have full control to customize nearly every aspect of the development tool chain via scripting, plugins, etc. has proven to be a huge advantage over the constrictions Altium had forced on us for all of those previous years.  And not having to deal with the tremendous cost of Altium – often wasting many hours dealing with their ridiculous bugs and crashes, with no power whatsoever to influence them to add new features, was a surprisingly excellent stress-reliever.  Sure KiCAD had plenty of quirks, but there was so much more we could do about those issues than we ever could have with Altium. 

Were/are there things Altium is capable of that KiCad wasn’t/isn't -- yet --?  Of course, but KiCad’s development pace has been so much faster than I expected, that it has enabled the completion of some quite complicated and extensive projects.  And it’s great that our customers can use the same software that we use – without having to pay exorbitant fees and restrictions for the privilege of doing so.

Being cross-platform is a huge plus, too.  Not having to deal with Microsoft licensing – in fact, at this point not having to deal with any proprietary licensing at all, relieves stress levels as well.  We even have bootable USB sticks you can plug into just about any computer to boot Linux and run our complete dev toolchain.  Try that with Altium.

The other pleasant and heart-warming surprise was the discovery of the power of the KiCad forums and user networks.  Nearly any issue that came up was readily resolved by just reading, or on occasion, asking, on the forums.  There are extremely bright and helpful folks there who spend countless hours helping to improve KiCad and help its users in any way possible.  The same is true with FreeCAD.

A quick aside about FreeCAD:  Yes, it can be really intimidating at first – especially if you’re not comfortable with true parametric design, and/or don’t have a lot of experience using CAD tools.  It is also undergoing rather rapid development in a wide variety of areas, and there are many experiments with different branches of development, which all can be confusing and concerning to newcomers.

Make no mistake, however – FreeCAD is extremely capable, and can compete in many many areas with the big boys out there.  For anyone needing a seriously powerful, reliable mechanical CAD tool that also doesn’t lock in all of your design files to hostile proprietary file formats, has extensive scripting capabilities, and pretty seamless integration with KiCad, FreeCAD is worth the time and effort.  If you find it crashing on you frequently, don’t give up – once you’ve learned its ways (almost always “ways” that are simply best-practice CAD design principles), it is actually a remarkably reliable design tool.  And yes, it will take a substantial amount of time to get really comfortable with.  Robust parametric modeling isn’t something you just learn in a day or two – even with the most powerful CAD tools out there.  But there are many “pros” who complete commercial projects with FreeCAD every day, and prove it’s absolutely capable of a huge array of design tasks.

Another consideration regarding the time one invests in complex tools like these is that with the proprietary tools you have no control whatsoever about the ultimate direction their management might take in the future.  As many folks using the “free” proprietary packages have discovered recently, your tool might be bought, phased out, dramatically increased in price, severe changes in licensing, etc.  Who would ever want to go through what Eagle users have?  Many of them even got to PAY for that “service”!  And what do you then do with all of the data you’ve generated with those tools?

With KiCad, FreeCAD, and so many other powerful open source design tools available, there may be (or not so much) an additional time investment in the beginning to learn the use of the tools, as well as get them customized to maximize workflow efficiency, but the bonus is that they’ll be there for you for as long as you need them – even if their development project were to die, you’ll still be able to build from the source code if necessary, and your data won’t be locked up in a file format that you don’t have access to.  Not to mention there are no licensing restrictions that prevent you from packaging up your entire dev environment in virtual machines/containers that can serve as backup snapshots that can be usable indefinitely.

Of course, just because a tool is open source DOES NOT MEAN that it’s a great tool, or that it will do everything you need.  But there are more and more open source tools available these days that compete very closely with their commercial competitors.  And, many of the open source tools are leveling the playing field at what I believe is an astonishing pace.

KiCad, along with InvenTree, K-nTree, Interactive HTML BOM, RF plugin, StepUp plugin combined with FreeCAD, plus a few others allow me to now laugh at how sick I felt when Altium jerked us around, with us paying many thousands of dollars for the privilege of being completely screwed and possibly ruined.  NEVER AGAIN!  Must admit, though – in the end they did us a great favor!  Scary to consider how much time, money and terror that painful lesson cost, though...

The fact that Digi-key, LCSC, and other distributors are putting resources into supporting KiCad, and more and more manufacturing houses are also seamlessly supporting it, means the picture is getting better every day for a highly efficient, reliable development/production process.

Another great thing about KiCad is that if anyone has a feature/bug they’d like to see addressed, it’s incredibly easy to file the bug or request on the list the developers refer to.  Try that with Altium – they simply don’t care about the little company or individual, because as they made abundantly clear to us:

Either you have enough resources to sue us, or we don’t have to listen to you – at all. 

This is something I think all small businesses would do well to be acutely aware of.  If we hadn’t been able to rapidly come up to speed with affordable/capable alternatives to Altium, we surely would have lost important customers, and might have even had to deal with lawsuits.  This can be the utter destruction of a business, and you know what – ALTIUM DOESN’T CARE!  They fully admit that they think they have you locked in, and that you’re very unlikely to leave them because they pretty much own all of your data, locked up in their proprietary format.

When I see folks complaining about KiCad, FreeCAD, or other similarly capable tools I can certainly understand at least some of their frustration.  But there are easily accessed, numerous ways to get help, and if you are desperate to get a feature implemented, you can always work with the developers and offer to pay for it.  It might actually be far cheaper to pay KiCad devs for needed features than to pay for proprietary products – especially in the long run.

Another piece of advice I’d toss out to new adopters of these tools would be to keep up with the vast wealth of information on the user and developer forums.  Make sure to peruse them daily, if at all possible. 

OF COURSE DOCUMENTATION WILL LAG!  Those of us who depend on these tools want new features/bug fixes released as quickly as possible – we don’t care nearly as much about the documentation always being kept precisely up to date, because it is so simple to just check the forums, tutorials, and GASP – actually ask politely for some help.  I think you’ll find the KiCad forums far more accommodating and far less likely to delete any critical posts when compared to the freak show I witnessed on the Altium forums back in the day.

After having been forced, for a variety of reasons, to rely on so many proprietary tools over the years, I am so excited and relieved to have access to such power – not just the power of the tools themselves, but the power of being free from asinine, uncaring corporations, and the power of being free to customize the development toolchain and workflow to best suit our needs.  I’d much rather give KiCad, FreeCAD, and other open source projects my money, than to repeat the terrifying, expensive, and potentially ruinous experiences with the greedy corps.

Bottom line:  It takes arguably more work up front, but tools like KiCad, FreeCAD, ARM dev tools, Blender, Darktable Luxrender, JupyterLab, Linux itself, and so many more, are easily capable of being used professionally to produce quite complex commercial products.  People are doing it every day.  And the hundreds or thousands, of people-hours you might invest in these tools won’t be wasted because they’ll likely be here for you well into the future.  And, even if they’re not, there will always be ways to fully access and utilize the data you’ve created with them.  Plus you can help in so many different ways to make these tools even better.

So, when you’re frustrated, and feel the urge to moan about issues you’re facing, it might be worth asking a few questions, like:  Are these issues stopping other folks from getting their work done?  Are there any forum posts, tutorials, code repository tickets, or other resources out there that may be helpful?  Is it worth considering you may have to take a slightly different approach to how you use the tool, and that they new approach may even have some advantages that you aren’t able to recognize yet?  Have you politely asked on the forums for help?  And possibly most important:  Have you thought about the most constructive, polite, respectful ways that you might be able to help the situation?? 
And, yes, it’s always good to check the documentation before reaching out to avoid both wasting your own time, but also the very precious time of the developers and other users who try to help others.  Even if the docs might not be as up to date as you think they should be...

If instead, people decide to complain without regard to the fact that others are successfully just getting the job done, or ignoring the wealth of resources available, or aren’t willing to do the least bit to help out and make the situation better, then it’s probably best that they are ignored, because this just wastes everyone’s time and leaves a stench about that no reasonable person wants to deal with.

These are great times for powerful open tools that are rapidly leveling the playing field.  It is truly a miraculous time to be alive, so get away from the stench, and breath the crisp fresh air of exciting new possibilities and – enjoy the fact that even you can make beneficial contributions – no matter who you are!

Freedom to all and to all a good day!
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #430 on: January 20, 2022, 07:34:30 pm »
We are listening but the moment anything is attmepted there's another group that goes NOT LIKE THAT.

That is an inherent problem with open projects. Sure in closed projects, you can also have some disagreement, but it's usually only a few people, and managers just make decisions and everyone follows.
In open projects, *anyone* (whether being active or not in the project) feels entitled to weigh in (and merely having an opinion makes some people think they are active contributors), and contrary to a "closed" environment, none of them feels like anyone in the core team can have the authority to act as a manager. Of course, in large open-source projects, there ARE actual "managers". Linus for Linux is a particularly telling example. But that's also why he is constantly being called a prick by many, who would dream of Linus being kicked out of Linux. (And then, the project would likely become a huge mess, but that's another story...)

Point is: projects need some form of management. And the distributed nature of open-source projects makes it highly probable that many people will question the management of the project, whatever it is.

Social networks in general (and forums in particular) are a good example of what happens when discussions go on "unmanaged".
 

Online nctnico

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #431 on: January 20, 2022, 07:57:58 pm »
No, the argument is "Please listen to your users". I'm not even the one offering "do what I want suggestions" beyond "Consistent UI please" and "Please don't push it out the door with big chunks of the help file missing" which is a reasonably low bar to set for any software project.

Hahah. O god you don't know the magnitude of the whining we get with the documentation.

1. OMG IT MUST BE TRANSLATED TO 50 LANGUAGES!
2. OMG IT MUST COMPLY WITH LINUX DISTROS XYZ POLICY
3. OMG IT MUST USE ABC TOOLCHAIN AND GENERATE AN EPUB FILE COMPATIBLE WITH MY 10 YEAR OLD KINDLE

The result is, all the documentation contributors have quit and we have been left with outdated docs.
We just had a 50+ angry mailing list chain kickoff because somehow, people think we are idiots and don't know how HTML works. Also making some claims about things without even having explored the topic (Just use asciidoctor! it does PDFs just fine! yea....except it has an outstanding defect of CJK font support being broken).

We are listening but the moment anything is attmepted there's another group that goes NOT LIKE THAT.
We are trying to redo the entire documentation tooling to actually make contributors not need to have a degree in Linux System Administration to write a sentence.
Show me a PCB CAD package that has coherent documentation nowadays...  ;) When I need to know how to get something done in Allegro (Orcad) or Atlium I use Google to find a forum post or instruction video. Usually that is far more informative than using the help function. 15+ years ago Altium came with (thick) paper manuals which described each step of each process (like making symbols) but that only covered the basics.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2022, 08:06:34 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline delfinom

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #432 on: January 20, 2022, 08:23:59 pm »
Quote
The result is, all the documentation contributors have quit and we have been left with outdated docs.

What's needed to be able to write the docs? Other than a grasp of English :)

ISTM that even a current user might not be an appropriate person unless they have inside knowledge of how things are supposed to work. Documenting what you managed to find out through trial and error would be better than nothing, I guess, but the ideal would be to document what it's supposed to do. How would one go about getting involved in that?


1. Learn asciidoc/asciidoctor (it's not that bad, it's a sane alternative to markdown)
2. Know basic git and gitlab to open a merge request
3. Figure out how to get asciidoctor installed, if on Windows you need ruby + the gem
4. Install VSCode + Asciidoc Extension to get live previews

https://gitlab.com/kicad/services/kicad-doc
 

Online Cerebus

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #433 on: January 20, 2022, 08:26:35 pm »
So, summing up the arguments: "You need to do what I want and if you don't you're stupid"!
Did I get that right?

No, the argument is "Please listen to your users". I'm not even the one offering "do what I want suggestions" beyond "Consistent UI please" and "Please don't push it out the door with big chunks of the help file missing" which is a reasonably low bar to set for any software project.

Well, I didn't respond to you in particular, but "whom the shoe fits"...

What I got is "This release was not ready, because X", with X being of such importance it dwarfs every other achievement that makes the release a proper milestone. This is not much different from "Feature X MUST be worked on or you're stupid".

In the case of basic, functioning documentation, as in help file "this is what control X does", yes, if it's missing then I would wholeheartedly endorse a point of view that it MUST be there. That's the equivalent of the garage telling your car is ready, and when you get there it's only got three wheels on.

You are the one throwing emotive words like 'stupid' around, the most insulting term I've used in relation to the matter in hand is 'amateurish' and that wasn't even in this thread. In fact I don't recall anyone who has said something to the effect of "I'd like to see X" use the kind of insulting language you're putting into their mouths. That borders on, perhaps, is, making ad-hominem arguments and there's no point in continuing to try and discuss this if you're determined to do that rather than offer reasoned counter arguments to the points made.

Chivvying people on to be better is not the same as calling them stupid. You may chose to insult people you wish to persuade if you like, but personally I find it rather counter productive.

Don't bother replying to me personally because I'm hitting "ignore thread" after this, circular arguments in place of constructive discussion are not what I want to spend my time on. It's ironic that earlier in the thread I'm the one urging people who had previously given up on it to give KiCad another go in light of recent improvements, and now I'm giving up in the face of unthinking zealotry. Go figure.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Online Ed.Kloonk

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #434 on: January 20, 2022, 08:52:32 pm »
Warning:  Long post ahead.  There is a “bottom line” towards the bottom....

..../

Holy Moly. Nominal Animal has a new apprentice.

 ;D
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Offline phs

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #435 on: January 20, 2022, 09:01:11 pm »
Quote
Holy Moly. Nominal Animal has a new apprentice.

Haha, that one's been building up for a few years.  If you ventured in, I hope you made it out unscathed!

I do love the posts from the Animal, though!
 
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Offline phs

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #436 on: January 20, 2022, 09:04:11 pm »
Quote
But I do know that I would like to be able to integrate my personal component database into my KiCad design flow.  I would be happy to change out my database if that's what it took.

fourfathom:  You may want to check out InvenTree/K-nTree...
 

Online dunkemhigh

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #437 on: January 20, 2022, 09:06:05 pm »
Quote
The result is, all the documentation contributors have quit and we have been left with outdated docs.

What's needed to be able to write the docs? Other than a grasp of English :)

ISTM that even a current user might not be an appropriate person unless they have inside knowledge of how things are supposed to work. Documenting what you managed to find out through trial and error would be better than nothing, I guess, but the ideal would be to document what it's supposed to do. How would one go about getting involved in that?

1. Learn asciidoc/asciidoctor (it's not that bad, it's a sane alternative to markdown)
2. Know basic git and gitlab to open a merge request
3. Figure out how to get asciidoctor installed, if on Windows you need ruby + the gem
4. Install VSCode + Asciidoc Extension to get live previews

https://gitlab.com/kicad/services/kicad-doc

Thanks, but what I meant was more: where does one get the knowledge to put in the documentation?
 

Online dunkemhigh

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #438 on: January 20, 2022, 09:08:47 pm »
Quote
You may want to check out InvenTree/K-nTree...

The InvenTree mention looks good - thanks for mentioning that (which hadn't crossed my radar yet and is pretty much what I am looking out for at the moment).

but Google/DuckDuck fail miserably to give any clue as to what K-nTree is. Do you have a link?
 

Offline fourfathom

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #439 on: January 20, 2022, 09:19:26 pm »
Here's K-nTree: https://github.com/sparkmicro/Ki-nTree/
(I found it while skimming the InvenTree site).  I have not actually looked at either of these yet, just following up on the phs post (thanks, phs!)
 
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Offline delfinom

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #440 on: January 20, 2022, 09:31:37 pm »
Quote
The result is, all the documentation contributors have quit and we have been left with outdated docs.

What's needed to be able to write the docs? Other than a grasp of English :)

ISTM that even a current user might not be an appropriate person unless they have inside knowledge of how things are supposed to work. Documenting what you managed to find out through trial and error would be better than nothing, I guess, but the ideal would be to document what it's supposed to do. How would one go about getting involved in that?

1. Learn asciidoc/asciidoctor (it's not that bad, it's a sane alternative to markdown)
2. Know basic git and gitlab to open a merge request
3. Figure out how to get asciidoctor installed, if on Windows you need ruby + the gem
4. Install VSCode + Asciidoc Extension to get live previews

https://gitlab.com/kicad/services/kicad-doc

Thanks, but what I meant was more: where does one get the knowledge to put in the documentation?

Alot of it can be done just by being a normal user that figures it out/understands things. Some of it might require knowing developer intention, but many sections are like, "Want to make a curved track? Press this button and do this".
Or, "This button here does this"
 

Offline thinkfat

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #441 on: January 20, 2022, 09:34:12 pm »
So, summing up the arguments: "You need to do what I want and if you don't you're stupid"!
Did I get that right?

No, the argument is "Please listen to your users". I'm not even the one offering "do what I want suggestions" beyond "Consistent UI please" and "Please don't push it out the door with big chunks of the help file missing" which is a reasonably low bar to set for any software project.

Well, I didn't respond to you in particular, but "whom the shoe fits"...

What I got is "This release was not ready, because X", with X being of such importance it dwarfs every other achievement that makes the release a proper milestone. This is not much different from "Feature X MUST be worked on or you're stupid".

In the case of basic, functioning documentation, as in help file "this is what control X does", yes, if it's missing then I would wholeheartedly endorse a point of view that it MUST be there. That's the equivalent of the garage telling your car is ready, and when you get there it's only got three wheels on.

You are the one throwing emotive words like 'stupid' around, the most insulting term I've used in relation to the matter in hand is 'amateurish' and that wasn't even in this thread. In fact I don't recall anyone who has said something to the effect of "I'd like to see X" use the kind of insulting language you're putting into their mouths. That borders on, perhaps, is, making ad-hominem arguments and there's no point in continuing to try and discuss this if you're determined to do that rather than offer reasoned counter arguments to the points made.

Chivvying people on to be better is not the same as calling them stupid. You may chose to insult people you wish to persuade if you like, but personally I find it rather counter productive.

Don't bother replying to me personally because I'm hitting "ignore thread" after this, circular arguments in place of constructive discussion are not what I want to spend my time on. It's ironic that earlier in the thread I'm the one urging people who had previously given up on it to give KiCad another go in light of recent improvements, and now I'm giving up in the face of unthinking zealotry. Go figure.

Okay. Zealot. I've been called many things. But "Zealot" is new. Anyway I don't care if you read this or not, others will, and I'm writing for their sake.

Let me say a few things from my perspective both as a professional software developer as well as contributor to a number of open source software projects. Free Software lives by and large off of spare time dedicated by individuals. There are a few "big money" projects with a majority of contributors on some companies payroll, KiCAD is not one of them.

For every such project comes a point where you _have_ to make a release. Distributions, which are your primary customers, demand it. They want something they can package and ship. Your end users demand a release, because of all the shiny bling you have been showing on conferences for the past two years. So you take inventory of the outstanding issues. And since you know you cannot fix all of them, ever, you hold a triage. And then you sacrifice stuff, and if you don't have people to contribute documentation or translations, this is what gets chopped. Because you know it's not the end of the world for your users. But a bug in pcbnew that crashes it when you draw a trace, that will hurt. So you'll find someone to fix it and you will delay the release to have it fixed. Because that's essential for your users, where a "TODO" in a help file is not, because there's always a community of other users out there that they can ask.

In a professional setup, the story is a little different. Customer gets what is in the contract. If the contract says, you need to deliver documentation, you better have a work package for it and manpower reserved. And if push comes to shove, you can still play "Escalate!" and coax management into getting you an additional technical writer on the team to help you out. Because nobody wants to argue with the customer and talk him out of what he can rightfully expect.

Call me a zealot for knowing the difference. But don't call people "amateurish" who know what is _actually_ important for their users and what isn't.
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Online dunkemhigh

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #442 on: January 20, 2022, 09:44:42 pm »
Quote
Here's K-nTree: https://github.com/sparkmicro/Ki-nTree/

Thanks! Using the correct spelling works wonders  :-DD
 

Offline MadScientist

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #443 on: January 30, 2022, 10:12:17 pm »
I moved from a professional license version of DipTrace to Kicad 6. ( I had used Kicad 5 for some personal designs ). I don’t find the lack of documentation that bad the  vast majority of Kicad features are intuitive and the rest get answers by the Kicad community . I just completed 6 designs last week and was very happy with Kicad 6 . With very little effort I was productive with Kicad.

Give me features over documentation  any day.

Great software , keep going guys
« Last Edit: January 30, 2022, 10:14:47 pm by MadScientist »
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Offline thinkfat

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #444 on: January 31, 2022, 07:42:16 am »
KiCAD 6.0.1 has been released.
Everybody likes gadgets. Until they try to make them.
 

Online Ed.Kloonk

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #445 on: January 31, 2022, 08:02:58 am »
KiCAD 6.0.1 has been released.

Now with full documentation of every feature.  ;)
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Online langwadt

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #446 on: January 31, 2022, 11:21:09 am »
KiCAD 6.0.1 has been released.

Now with full documentation of every feature.  ;)

just look at the code ;)
 
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Offline IanJ

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Re: KiCad 6 is coming! (has arrived!!)
« Reply #447 on: January 31, 2022, 05:18:40 pm »
With very little effort I was productive with Kicad.

This is a key feature of KiCad.
A big year coming for KiCad i think!

Ian
Ian Johnston - Manufacturer of the PDVS2, PDVS2mini & author of the free WinGPIB app.
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