To be fair, in KiCad 5, the “Update PCB from Schematic” button did exist, under the Tools menu. But in KiCad 6, the transition to a netlist file-less workflow is complete.
Manually exporting the net list was never a thing with KiCad 5 either. I cannot remember ever having to do it. I always used "Update PCB from Schematic".
Kicad 6? Chrome is already up to version 88 and Firefox 84, Kicad really needs to catch up.
On a more serious note: it looks like a lot of interface changes have occurred, I'll have to see how they feel in-person. I really hope eeschema's background colour hasn't changed to grey as the screenshots suggest.
Thinkfat is right about the update PCB from schematic stuff:QuoteTo be fair, in KiCad 5, the “Update PCB from Schematic” button did exist, under the Tools menu. But in KiCad 6, the transition to a netlist file-less workflow is complete.
What was incomplete about it previously? It works fine in 5.1.8 and it's on the toolbar, not just hidden in a menu. Maybe an error/oversight in this article (it's a really big article)?
On a more serious note: it looks like a lot of interface changes have occurred, I'll have to see how they feel in-person. I really hope eeschema's background colour hasn't changed to grey as the screenshots suggest.
The new schematic file format embeds the symbols used. This should completely eliminate the missing symbols issue. From the PCB side, footprints have been embedded in the PCBnew file since at least V5.
It doesn't look like they put effort into simplifying the libraries - it took me a while to figure it all out but is way more convoluted than it needs to be. Especially if you want to distribute a kicad design. There really needs to be a button that packages up all the lib elements for distribution. Something that Eagle does automatically since like 2005. I find missing symbols and footprints in all sorts of Kicad files out there. Annoying to have to chase them down, if you even can. Still haven't found the Pico's USB connector symbol.
Color schemes are now JSON files and can be selected in the preferences. The EESchema default background color (if an older configuration wasn't imported) is now something along the lines of the one in "Solarized Light" themes.On a more serious note: it looks like a lot of interface changes have occurred, I'll have to see how they feel in-person. I really hope eeschema's background colour hasn't changed to grey as the screenshots suggest.
I would assume it's configurable. The default in the older versions is blinding white, I always change it to black first thing after installing, I'd be shocked (and really annoyed) if they took away the ability to customize colors.
This is very good news. I hope in the future when the software is as mature as other established open source software, they would offer a Long Term Support (LTS) version.
My main concern is, whether the new 6th version of KiCAD can:
a) SELECT MULTIPLE OBJECTS and CHANGE a COMMON PROPERTY (like a text size, via diameter, trace width, etc.). Without this, it is still a toy PCB CAD. Having to click hundreds of objects one by one, making 5 clicks or so to change a trace width or whatever, is beyond annoying.
b) MAKE CURVED TRACES. My first task in KiCAD at my former employer was to draw a curved flex-PCB and it was almost an impossible job to do. I needed to hack around it by drawing the stuff in a graphical editor, export in DXF, import in some other (not Cu, mind you) layer and then manually switch the imported lines to a F.Cu / B.Cu layer piece by piece, arc by arc. God I hated the KiCAD since!
c) So does it finally allow to import DXF into a copper layer? Someone ingenious decided that the import DXF dialog does not contain a copper layer as a selection. :box:
d) Allow a graphical object to become an electrical one too. Like for example, how is one supposed to connect a PCB antenna pattern (or any other distributed element structure) to an electrical net? Even if you manage to go through b and c steps above, you still can not connect it electrically and need to use hacks.
e) Allow to switch the annoying quadrant IV operation into a Quadrant I, such as almost all CADs use. Yes, I am talking you, the flipped Y axis.
These are some of the stuff why I have not considered using the KiCAD so far personally, but hell I would like to!
So do you know if any of the stuff above got any improvement or at least an option is available?
My main concern is, whether the new 6th version of KiCAD can:You can't import copper and assign a net in PCBnew, but I suspect the following will work (don't have anything to test with it, though):
d) Allow a graphical object to become an electrical one too. Like for example, how is one supposed to connect a PCB antenna pattern (or any other distributed element structure) to an electrical net? Even if you manage to go through b and c steps above, you still can not connect it electrically and need to use hacks.
So do you know if any of the stuff above got any improvement or at least an option is available?
d) no. while you can draw e.g. arcs now on a copper layer (and import graphics items into copper layers), you cannot assign a net to them. you can connect traces, but it might fail DRC then. The items are recognized as obstacles by the interactive router, though.
My main concern is, whether the new 6th version of KiCAD can:
a) SELECT MULTIPLE OBJECTS and CHANGE a COMMON PROPERTY (like a text size, via diameter, trace width, etc.). Without this, it is still a toy PCB CAD. Having to click hundreds of objects one by one, making 5 clicks or so to change a trace width or whatever, is beyond annoying.
b) MAKE CURVED TRACES. My first task in KiCAD at my former employer was to draw a curved flex-PCB and it was almost an impossible job to do. I needed to hack around it by drawing the stuff in a graphical editor, export in DXF, import in some other (not Cu, mind you) layer and then manually switch the imported lines to a F.Cu / B.Cu layer piece by piece, arc by arc. God I hated the KiCAD since!
c) So does it finally allow to import DXF into a copper layer? Someone ingenious decided that the import DXF dialog does not contain a copper layer as a selection. :box:
d) Allow a graphical object to become an electrical one too. Like for example, how is one supposed to connect a PCB antenna pattern (or any other distributed element structure) to an electrical net? Even if you manage to go through b and c steps above, you still can not connect it electrically and need to use hacks.
e) Allow to switch the annoying quadrant IV operation into a Quadrant I, such as almost all CADs use. Yes, I am talking you, the flipped Y axis.
These are some of the stuff why I have not considered using the KiCAD so far personally, but hell I would like to!
So do you know if any of the stuff above got any improvement or at least an option is available?
a) yes, but only for traces (edit: also vias), it doesn't seem to work for text items.
b) yes, curved traces are available now.
c) yes
d) no. while you can draw e.g. arcs now on a copper layer (and import graphics items into copper layers), you cannot assign a net to them. you can connect traces, but it might fail DRC then. The items are recognized as obstacles by the interactive router, though.
e) yes
What I'm still missing is via fences. It's the primary reason I didn't yet ditch KiCAD 5.
Interesting new features! However, I hope the limited naming scheme for bus signals will be changed into a more practical one. The current bus[0..n] is quite cumbersome in most cases. No way to create an SPI bus with comprehensible signal names, for example.This is supported, but I don't think the documentation has been updated yet. The old syntax is still supported, and it's also possible to do something like SRAM{RW CS ACK A[0..16] D[0..16]}
Well, it does not work as easy as you say. Try it!
If you for example need to connect the pad to a ground pour, it won't work. The ground pour will avoid filling to it due to seeing the graphical line at/next to the pad as an obstacle. Same with the interactive router. You will be fighting with it to get it connected.
Even if you create it as a footprint. You can try for example the 2.4 GHz IFA PCB antenna, that is included somewhere in the KiCAD libs.
On a more serious note: it looks like a lot of interface changes have occurred, I'll have to see how they feel in-person. I really hope eeschema's background colour hasn't changed to grey as the screenshots suggest.
I would assume it's configurable. The default in the older versions is blinding white, I always change it to black first thing after installing, I'd be shocked (and really annoyed) if they took away the ability to customize colors.
Is object selection in EEschema fixed so it doesn't move selection automatically when you drag select?
Is object selection in EEschema fixed so it doesn't move selection automatically when you drag select?
Not sure what you're referring to - there is in V5 eeschema a specific behavior, that when you select an area, it automatically goes into drag/move mode. Is that what you're referring to? If yes, that's been changed (fixed?). It's now slightly less convenient to move parts of the schematic around during cleanup. You need to hit "m" to start moving the selection.
Interesting new features! However, I hope the limited naming scheme for bus signals will be changed into a more practical one. The current bus[0..n] is quite cumbersome in most cases. No way to create an SPI bus with comprehensible signal names, for example.This is supported, but I don't think the documentation has been updated yet. The old syntax is still supported, and it's also possible to do something like SRAM{RW CS ACK A[0..16] D[0..16]}
On a more serious note: it looks like a lot of interface changes have occurred, I'll have to see how they feel in-person. I really hope eeschema's background colour hasn't changed to grey as the screenshots suggest.
I would assume it's configurable. The default in the older versions is blinding white, I always change it to black first thing after installing, I'd be shocked (and really annoyed) if they took away the ability to customize colors.
You can set whatever color you want in V5.
I don't like white but I also don't like a dark background for the schematic editor. So I set it to the same as Eagle: RGB 238, 238, 206.
It looks old fashioned but it's perfect for me, no eyestrain anymore.
Interesting new features! However, I hope the limited naming scheme for bus signals will be changed into a more practical one. The current bus[0..n] is quite cumbersome in most cases. No way to create an SPI bus with comprehensible signal names, for example.This is supported, but I don't think the documentation has been updated yet. The old syntax is still supported, and it's also possible to do something like SRAM{RW CS ACK A[0..16] D[0..16]}
Interesting new features! However, I hope the limited naming scheme for bus signals will be changed into a more practical one. The current bus[0..n] is quite cumbersome in most cases. No way to create an SPI bus with comprehensible signal names, for example.This is supported, but I don't think the documentation has been updated yet. The old syntax is still supported, and it's also possible to do something like SRAM{RW CS ACK A[0..16] D[0..16]}
Some bugs found right after I downloaded the latest nightly PPA release:
1. Footprint editor will not display grid correctly.
2. Schematic library conversion gets the library lost.
I didn't test further before removing it. I'll wait for its final release.
In reading the article, I get the sense that this is more an internal change (S expressions uber alles) and some visual candy. Now that I've got all the obscure aspects memorized, time to change! Hopefully it will be easy.
It doesn't look like they put effort into simplifying the libraries - it took me a while to figure it all out but is way more convoluted than it needs to be. Especially if you want to distribute a kicad design. There really needs to be a button that packages up all the lib elements for distribution. Something that Eagle does automatically since like 2005. I find missing symbols and footprints in all sorts of Kicad files out there. Annoying to have to chase them down, if you even can. Still haven't found the Pico's USB connector symbol.
I also hope they made managing design revisions easier but it doesn't look like they did. Again, something that is trivially easy in Eagle.
Impressive review. Thanks to Peter for doing it. Kicad 6 looks to be far better than I initially thought.
So, the million dollar question - is it stable enough to switch to full time? Guess I need to get it and see for myself.
Another excellent new feature is the ability to drag a footprint - and have the P&S router drag the traces connected to it. Makes it much less work to scoot a footprint over a little.
I want the parts laid out as they were in schematic with associated components next to each other !
:rant::palm:
I want the parts laid out as they were in schematic with associated components next to each other !
That's what happens now, the positions mirror those in the schematic. Your observation is out of date.
What a useless pile of rubbish.
Still you pay your money (or not) and take your choice.
While kicad is generally ok and has good libraries I did spot a huge clanger in their software.
If I try to layout a pcb it just puts the pcb parts in a line across the top of the pcb.
This is a real pain.
I want the parts laid out as they were in schematic with associated components next to each other !
With kicads way I have to move all the parts onto the pcb then work out what should be close to what !
What a useless pile of rubbish.
Still you pay your money (or not) and take your choice.
kicads way is maybe ok for half a dozen components but for something bigger just plain stupid.
Even better:
Put the schematic on the first monitor and put the pcb layout on the second monitor.
In Pcbnew, press 't'. Enter "c413" and, voila, the component is immediately attached to your mouse cursor. No need to pan/zoom.
While it is attached to your mouse cursor, press 'r' to rotate 90 degrees and press 'f' to flip the compononent to the other side of the board.
At least this works in V5.
@Janoc, thanks for the link. ugh. I find "trash your competition" as the worst kind of marketing. And, not explaining that one is the author of a competing product is borderline unethical.
Also, like F360 it would be very useful to be able to import an image, calibrate for dimensions, and use as a backdrop (or in the case of F360, sketch canvas). This would make it very easy to create an outline to fit a specific chassis or enclosure, and get mounting holes, tabs, and other mechanicals right - without leaving KiCad and creating a DXF in some other tool.
sorta long time eagle user, ...
... they are using people as beta testers.
... and i know it is open source but feels like at first sign of somewhat bug free release they will probably somehow try to sell it.
sorta long time eagle user, have been forcing myself to try kicad every major release and now and then, i want to use it and like it but it is still unfinished software, lots of bugs, lots of changes from version to version that seems to backfire as old bugs stay and new are introduced, waste of time since sometimes you loose your data, very unstable overall. tried pointing out bugs on their forum yet posts get removed, targeted moderation. they are using people as beta testers and i know it is open source but feels like at first sign of somewhat bug free release they will probably somehow try to sell it.
rant off: do anyone know how to setup kicad libraries on ubuntu 20.10, nothing works. thanks.
sorta long time eagle user, ...
... they are using people as beta testers.
Cadsoft Eagle was indeed very stable. The autodesk Eagle is terrible.
Nowadays all software uses their users as betatesters, commercially or not. Welcome in the age of agile programming.
If your posts to the KiCad forum were all like the post above, I need not ask why you were threatened with a lifelong ban.
yes autodesk f*ked up eagle, thats why i am rooting for kicad.but they threatening me on official kicad forums that they will ban me for saying on their forums that damned thing dont work for me, well this is interesting, maybe they are for real forcing only positive feedback posts.
thing is, lets say eagle freezes up or i i have brownout and my pc restarts in middle of routing some pcb and i forgot to save for few hours, with eagle there are autosaves, happened many times that those saved me few hours of re-work, and i am used to that "protective" approach, safety first. with kicad everything ok, saved many times, open board next time there is no components?! or making some custom part waste whole morning on it, save it and tomorow its gone, like i cant understand is it that i am so dumb that i cant use it or is it realy not well designed.
yes autodesk f*ked up eagle, thats why i am rooting for kicad.but they threatening me on official kicad forums that they will ban me for saying on their forums that damned thing dont work for me, well this is interesting, maybe they are for real forcing only positive feedback posts.
thing is, lets say eagle freezes up or i i have brownout and my pc restarts in middle of routing some pcb and i forgot to save for few hours, with eagle there are autosaves, happened many times that those saved me few hours of re-work, and i am used to that "protective" approach, safety first. with kicad everything ok, saved many times, open board next time there is no components?! or making some custom part waste whole morning on it, save it and tomorow its gone, like i cant understand is it that i am so dumb that i cant use it or is it realy not well designed.
Well, let's think about it for a nanosecond...how's that their fault? Save your work frequently. :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:
It just strikes me as absurd for blaming a user for the problems in software. :palm:Uh, so this is what you appear to be saying - if I know that a given program I am relying on doesn't autosave and I don't save as I am going along, it isn't my fault if it crashes and I lose my work. You don't see anything slightly absurd with that?
It just strikes me as absurd for blaming a user for the problems in software. :palm:Uh, so this is what you appear to be saying - if I know that a given program I am relying on doesn't autosave and I don't save as I am going along, it isn't my fault if it crashes and I lose my work. You don't see anything slightly absurd with that?
What ever happened to personal responsibility???
OK, show me how I misinterpreted your comment. I'm willing to learn.It just strikes me as absurd for blaming a user for the problems in software. :palm:Uh, so this is what you appear to be saying - if I know that a given program I am relying on doesn't autosave and I don't save as I am going along, it isn't my fault if it crashes and I lose my work. You don't see anything slightly absurd with that?
What ever happened to personal responsibility???
What ever happened to not putting works in other peoples' mouths?
Should I invent something for how I interpret your post and question that?
OK, show me how I misinterpreted your comment. I'm willing to learn.It just strikes me as absurd for blaming a user for the problems in software. :palm:Uh, so this is what you appear to be saying - if I know that a given program I am relying on doesn't autosave and I don't save as I am going along, it isn't my fault if it crashes and I lose my work. You don't see anything slightly absurd with that?
What ever happened to personal responsibility???
What ever happened to not putting works in other peoples' mouths?
Should I invent something for how I interpret your post and question that?
If your posts to the KiCad forum were all like the post above, I need not ask why you were threatened with a lifelong ban.
Well, let's think about it for a nanosecond...how's that their fault? Save your work frequently. :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:
What part of Free don't you understand?
....
lets be clear i want kicad to work and be replacement for all people that have no money to buy altium or similar. but with behavior surounding it i am afraid it will never happen.If your posts to the KiCad forum were all like the post above, I need not ask why you were threatened with a lifelong ban.
how is sincere feedback on bug report forums bad? should not they expect only negative feedback i n order to make it better, well i give only negative feedback on bug report forums (pun intended).
but i am dedicating my time each major release with trying to get it work and fail each time, hence implied that i am either stupid or something aint right, maybe both.Probably, but we need more information from you. "Libraries don't work" doesn't provide much to go on.
can you answer how to get it working on ubuntu 20.10? or am i not allowed to say it does not work?
both manualy added libraries downloaded from git and installed trough apt dont show up in schematic editor when pressing button to add part, i cant explain it any other way.
also there is no kicad folder in root/.config.
Just tried spinning up an Ubuntu 20.10 VM and installing KiCad using the distribution packages. It's on 5.1.6 when the latest is 5.1.9, but otherwise started up file and did the normal auto-population of the symbol libraries when starting a project for the first time.both manualy added libraries downloaded from git and installed trough apt dont show up in schematic editor when pressing button to add part, i cant explain it any other way.
also there is no kicad folder in root/.config.
Then you may need to configure the paths properly. Bear in mind they're not responsible for the mess your distro may make.
Also, why on earth are you running as root?
Here's how I deal(t) with it, both Eagle and KiCad.
I disabled the auto-save functionality.
I press ctl-s after making a (small) modification.
Every hour or so, depending on the kind of modification, I enter "git commit -a" and "git push" in the terminal.
I never forget it because I trained myself to do this and it became a habit and now I do it without thinking.
I never lost a (part of a) project.
You can create and setup free, private git repo's on Gitlab.
p.s. I have been using Alium Designer for a year (on windows) and it was much easier to end up with a broken,
non-functional schematic or pcb file.
Really, how hard is it to type Ctrl-S (or Cmd-S on a Mac) after making a change, even a minor one? I’ve been in the habit of “save often” since the days of DOS.
You are saying people are at fault for not hitting save, rather than accepting that the software is at fault for obliging the user to allow for its brokenness.
Running it as root using sudo also works fine (though I'd never actually use it like this).
Ofcourse, that doesn't mean that you are not allowed to criticize software.
...
But yes, I do wonder why the heck is he trying to run this as root? I guess he likes playing with fire. Given this I come to think that his messed up config likely isn't a KiCAD issue ...
I don't quite remember how my first KiCAD install went, but I think you need to just add the libraries manually. I'm not sure if the Ubuntu install will do that automatically or not.
Adding the symbol libraries can be done in bulk, all of them at once. Same for the footprint libraries.
$ aptitude search kicad | grep -v doc
i kicad - Electronic schematic and PCB design software
p kicad-common - Old common files used by kicad - Transitional Package
i A kicad-demos - Demo projects for kicad
i A kicad-footprints - Footprint symbols for KiCad's Pcbnew
i A kicad-libraries - Virtual package providing common used libraries by kicad
p kicad-packages3d - 3D models for 3D viewer in KiCad's Pcbnew and Footprint Editor
i A kicad-symbols - Schematic symbols for KiCad's Eeschema
i A kicad-templates - Project templates for KiCad
I've never found any CAD tool to be intuitive. It's all complex software to achieve complex goals and requires a time investment to use effectively. Those unwilling to make a time investment will inevitably fail and complain loudly about how hard it all is.
I've never found any CAD tool to be intuitive. It's all complex software to achieve complex goals and requires a time investment to use effectively. Those unwilling to make a time investment will inevitably fail and complain loudly about how hard it all is.
There was never an affordable electric vehicle... until there was.
But I find that some user interfaces/workflows click with me. Others don't. Unfortunately KiCAD is one that doesn't.
I've never found any CAD tool to be intuitive. It's all complex software to achieve complex goals and requires a time investment to use effectively. Those unwilling to make a time investment will inevitably fail and complain loudly about how hard it all is.
There was never an affordable electric vehicle... until there was.
Well, there still isn't, so..
You seem to confuse my point with "the software need not improve" - that's on you. Using tools is a skill, a skill one must learn and practice. This applies whether it's a CAD tool or a bloody hammer.
Not going to go on an on about this with you, but the fact that a tool has to be learned is not justification for a user interface that needs to be "improved". It is that simple in spite of your protestations.
just as your claim there are no affordable electric cars is wrong. Currently there are nearly 2 million EV owners in the US who say you are wrong.
I do find it interesting how many people are ready to jump on a bash Windows or Office when they change their interface in ways that aren't obvious, while the response in KiCAD's case is often to leap to their defense. I'm not a fan of MS changing the interface all the time, but given the huge user base it usually only takes a couple of minutes on Google to find the solution to your frustration. The much smaller user base of specialist software like KiCAD means that those resources are far more sparse. A little venting after hours or days fighting what seems like an impossible problem is not unexpected, and probably should be greeted with some tolerance.
just as your claim there are no affordable electric cars is wrong. Currently there are nearly 2 million EV owners in the US who say you are wrong.
just as your claim there are no affordable electric cars is wrong. Currently there are nearly 2 million EV owners in the US who say you are wrong.
Logical fallacy alert! You have no way of knowing whether those 2 million people agree or disagree with you just because they happen to own an EV. And as an EV owner, if you will allow me to read practicality into the concept of affordability, I would contend that for a very large majority of Americans (can't say elsewhere) an electric vehicle is not 'affordable', in the sense that they can't reasonably afford the extra expense of owning and operating an EV over a conventional gas car or hybrid. Especially the hybrid.
b/t/w, glad to read your honest renditions of your experience with Tesla. I know of people who have had repeated issues that more than qualify them for lemon-law protection but they won't even admit publicly that their cars have broken, let alone return them.
I'll ignore the issue of 2 million car owners thinking their cars are not affordable. The issue of the "extra" expense of an EV is a fallacy. EVs have lower operating costs including lower repair costs, lower maintenance costs and lower fuel costs making the total cost of ownership lower than an equivalent ICE. That's not me talking, that is many sources including government agencies that have them and track the costs as they wear them out including police.
On a more serious note: it looks like a lot of interface changes have occurred, I'll have to see how they feel in-person. I really hope eeschema's background colour hasn't changed to grey as the screenshots suggest.
I would assume it's configurable. The default in the older versions is blinding white, I always change it to black first thing after installing, I'd be shocked (and really annoyed) if they took away the ability to customize colors.
On a more serious note: it looks like a lot of interface changes have occurred, I'll have to see how they feel in-person. I really hope eeschema's background colour hasn't changed to grey as the screenshots suggest.
I would assume it's configurable. The default in the older versions is blinding white, I always change it to black first thing after installing, I'd be shocked (and really annoyed) if they took away the ability to customize colors.
I found a bug today in kicad in regards to keeping schematic layout when converting to a pcb.
At least on my version it just puts components along top of pcb to place.
I prefer components already placed where they were on schematic.
Associated components then stay next to each other which makes laying out better on medium to large sized pcb's.
After a lot of to-ing and fro-ing they eventually accepted it was a bug.
Bug ticket number 5480 !!!!!!
A few hours later they came back with a statement saying that due to hierarchical sheets they couldn't find a way around it.
Well, there still isn't, so..
You seem to confuse my point with "the software need not improve" - that's on you. Using tools is a skill, a skill one must learn and practice. This applies whether it's a CAD tool or a bloody hammer.
That they did no such thing is a matter of public record.. in issue 7480, for those wondering what a five month old bug about multi-line comments has to do with component autoplacement.
I do find it interesting how many people are ready to jump on a bash Windows or Office when they change their interface in ways that aren't obvious, while the response in KiCAD's case is often to leap to their defense. I'm not a fan of MS changing the interface all the time, but given the huge user base it usually only takes a couple of minutes on Google to find the solution to your frustration. The much smaller user base of specialist software like KiCAD means that those resources are far more sparse. A little venting after hours or days fighting what seems like an impossible problem is not unexpected, and probably should be greeted with some tolerance.
See, the problems for both Kicad and Microsoft are that:
(i) some people don't like the interfaces and some people do, but the users get on with it and do the task at hand.
(ii) if the user interface is changed to appease the people who didn't like the old interface, the other users complain, even if the new interface is better.
(iii) users who a few years ago tried the program and found the interface lacking in whatever manner still use that obsolete experience to complain about the interface -- even if the interface has changed to what might be more their liking.
The problem with CAD software, whether for mechanical design or for electronics design, is that there really is no "best" way to do it. If there was, every program would follow the same paradigm.
gnuarm's assertion that "schematic capture and layout are inherently simple processes that were done for a very long time with pencil, paper and tape. That's how simple it is." is reductive. "Inherently" simple, perhaps, but the devil is in the details. Paper-based schematics and rubylith-based layouts were used when there was no other option, but for obvious reasons those processes have been abandoned. Can a paper-based schematic output a BOM for purchasing? Can you absolutely guarantee correspondence between all nets on the paper schematic and all traces on the rubylith layout? Can you manage the correspondence between a resistor symbol on your paper schematic and the footprint on the PCB and the part you order? The point here is that the tools have grown to manage that complexity, but of course that means that the tools themselves have gotten more complex.
I'll ignore the issue of 2 million car owners thinking their cars are not affordable. The issue of the "extra" expense of an EV is a fallacy. EVs have lower operating costs including lower repair costs, lower maintenance costs and lower fuel costs making the total cost of ownership lower than an equivalent ICE. That's not me talking, that is many sources including government agencies that have them and track the costs as they wear them out including police.
An EV to meet my needs would cost three to four times what my car cost, and would not in my current (excluding pandemic-induced changes) usage pattern recoup this in the next 10 years. This is not 'affordable', this is 'waste of money'. My needs are not your needs, my means are not your means. Your truth is not the only truth.
Wouldn't be possible to have a single thread in this forum where EVs are not mentioned?
On a more serious note: it looks like a lot of interface changes have occurred, I'll have to see how they feel in-person. I really hope eeschema's background colour hasn't changed to grey as the screenshots suggest.
I would assume it's configurable. The default in the older versions is blinding white, I always change it to black first thing after installing, I'd be shocked (and really annoyed) if they took away the ability to customize colors.
I found a bug today in kicad in regards to keeping schematic layout when converting to a pcb.
At least on my version it just puts components along top of pcb to place.
I prefer components already placed where they were on schematic.
Associated components then stay next to each other which makes laying out better on medium to large sized pcb's.
After a lot of to-ing and fro-ing they eventually accepted it was a bug.
Bug ticket number 5480 !!!!!!
A few hours later they came back with a statement saying that due to hierarchical sheets they couldn't find a way around it.
In any case, you're still selecting and moving parts, so whether you do it as a group and fiddle, or whether you do it one by one and fiddle, there's not much time difference in the end.
In any case, you're still selecting and moving parts, so whether you do it as a group and fiddle, or whether you do it one by one and fiddle, there's not much time difference in the end.
Pcbnew's shortcut 't' ("Get and Move Footprint) comes to mind...
Schematic layout should be for readability, which is not necessarily the same as a functional board placement, especially for complex schematics. So initial placement based on schematic is not much of an advantage.
I find many plop down circuits in little pieces with scarce structure above that. I prefer to show the flow, both electrical and functional, in the schematic.
I find the 't' command to be a bit tedious. I much prefer to have the schematic up on the second monitor. When I click a part on the schematic, it's highlighted on the layout and I can place it as required.In any case, you're still selecting and moving parts, so whether you do it as a group and fiddle, or whether you do it one by one and fiddle, there's not much time difference in the end.
Pcbnew's shortcut 't' ("Get and Move Footprint) comes to mind...
My way of working is to have all the part footprints outside the board area, out of sight & off screen, then use t to select and place each. I usually keep the ratsnest hidden for initial placement. I also take some care to work out roughly where everything will go before I start placing, but I mainly only route analogue PCBs. For boards like these, placement is much the harder problem, routing is pretty easy, and I don't want any automation messing the placement up for me!
I find the 't' command to be a bit tedious. I much prefer to have the schematic up on the second monitor. When I click a part on the schematic, it's highlighted on the layout and I can place it as required.In any case, you're still selecting and moving parts, so whether you do it as a group and fiddle, or whether you do it one by one and fiddle, there's not much time difference in the end.
Pcbnew's shortcut 't' ("Get and Move Footprint) comes to mind...
My way of working is to have all the part footprints outside the board area, out of sight & off screen, then use t to select and place each. I usually keep the ratsnest hidden for initial placement. I also take some care to work out roughly where everything will go before I start placing, but I mainly only route analogue PCBs. For boards like these, placement is much the harder problem, routing is pretty easy, and I don't want any automation messing the placement up for me!
It's 2 clicks vs 5 clicks.
[…] especially now that 'schematicless' workflow will be supported […]
I recently ―less than a month ago― tried KiCAD for the first time (no nightly builds, but stable 5.1.9), coming from Eagle (and before of it, from OrCAD). Although I have found some oddities, it is really usable, and much more user friendly, and I decided to definitely switch to it. I'm not a heavy user of PCB design tools (I only design PCB as hobby, not work, and usually try to avoid it) so I'm not really aware of such schematicless workflow in KiCAD or in any other tool, but designing now some μstrip and GCPW RF circuits such approach seems quite desirable. Do you have more information about the way it is supported in KiCAD?
Thanks & regards.
It is pads, honestly taht is one feature that I actually miss from pads. Other than that I love my KiCAD and wouldn't want to go back to that peace of shit software.
I still recall the bad old days (30 years ago) where importing a netlist resulted in a pile of footprints at (0,0). Having them spread on a grid is a vast improvement.
Schematic layout should be for readability, which is not necessarily the same as a functional board placement, especially for complex schematics. So initial placement based on schematic is not much of an advantage.
Some bugs found right after I downloaded the latest nightly PPA release:
1. Footprint editor will not display grid correctly.
2. Schematic library conversion gets the library lost.
I didn't test further before removing it. I'll wait for its final release.
I still recall the bad old days (30 years ago) where importing a netlist resulted in a pile of footprints at (0,0). Having them spread on a grid is a vast improvement.kicad lines up components along top of pcb. Or at least my version does.
Schematic layout should be for readability, which is not necessarily the same as a functional board placement, especially for complex schematics. So initial placement based on schematic is not much of an advantage.
Some bugs found right after I downloaded the latest nightly PPA release:
1. Footprint editor will not display grid correctly.
2. Schematic library conversion gets the library lost.
I didn't test further before removing it. I'll wait for its final release.
Your a brave man saying that about kicad.
kicad is the best thing since sliced bread and has NO bugs or issues.
However when you consider they had $20,000 funding last year they should be doing a better job........
Shock horror ! no kicads not free, you pay for it through taxes and grants.
Some bugs found right after I downloaded the latest nightly PPA release:
1. Footprint editor will not display grid correctly.
2. Schematic library conversion gets the library lost.
I didn't test further before removing it. I'll wait for its final release.
Your a brave man saying that about kicad.
kicad is the best thing since sliced bread and has NO bugs or issues.
However when you consider they had $20,000 funding last year they should be doing a better job........
Shock horror ! no kicads not free, you pay for it through taxes and grants.
I pay no extra money to use Kicad. That’s “free” as far as I’m concerned
However when you consider they had $20,000 funding last year they should be doing a better job........$20,000 funding in the last year. Wow. That must be a fortune for for-profit software company. Shock and horror for Altium. Software giants like Microsoft and Adobe are jealous.
Shock horror ! no kicads not free, you pay for it through taxes and grants.
However when you consider they had $20,000 funding last year they should be doing a better job........
Shock horror ! no kicads not free, you pay for it through taxes and grants.
If only that GBP30B had gone to KiCAD instead.
Shock horror ! no kicads not free, you pay for it through taxes and grants.
Please don't feed the Trolls.
I think I need a bit longer to mature before I am usable.There, fixed it.
Feedin' the Troll, again... :scared:I think I need a bit longer to mature before I am usable.There, fixed it.
So I'm not sure now where to look for the problem.
I must admit I'm a bit disappointed as well but I don't blame the developers.
I prefer they polish it as much as possible and release it when they feel confident.
I hate agile software development...
Some people feel 5.99 is stable enough for daily use.
Things have gone quiet regarding the KiCad 6 release. I am aware of the team's "it' will be ready when it's ready" approach and appreciate that it is not a commercial product with a committed schedule. But weren't they hoping to release 6.0 sometime during the first half of the year?
A quick web search did not find any recent updates or discussions. Does anyone have further insights into the current status and plans?
The lead development team has agreed on a version 6 release schedule as follows:
- String freeze November 1.
- Tag RC1 on November 15.
- All repos frozen on December 14.
- Tag all repos with 6.0.0 on December 15.
- 6.0.0 release announcement December 31 (maybe the day before Christmas
just for fun).
- Branch V6 and open master for new feature development on January 1.
Our goal is to stick to that as closely as possible [...]
Hopefully the version 6 release will go reasonably smoothly and we can get started on version 7 in 2022.
I'll be curious to have a look when it's ready. I'm still using 2013-07-07, I tried 5.1.0 a while back but experienced a lot of problems with the rendering and trying to convert existing designs just made a big mess so I rolled back.
Jeez, they're up to 5.10 now -- and that's much improved over 5.1.0. And the old 2013? Yikes. Upgrade, man, upgrade!
Jeez, they're up to 5.10 now -- and that's much improved over 5.1.0. And the old 2013? Yikes. Upgrade, man, upgrade!
Actually it's 5.1.10, i.e. the same 5.1 series as 5.1.0. And 5.1.11 has just been released.
I downloaded the v5.99 version (or whatever it was a couple of months ago), and it looked good, but I'm afraid to transition my work in progress to it as it apparently uses a different library structure and you can't revert back. Since I'm pretty happy with v5.1.8 I was planning to hold out for the official 6 release.
Have you in general been able to update (or try 5.99 in parallel with your prior version?) without problems?
i's sure nice to see the cut/paste/move/drag command keyboard shortcuts normalized between the schematic and PCB tools
I just installed the latest 5.99 (after archiving all my existing jobs and libraries) and it is really nice. Setting up the library path was easy (I use my own custom library), and as a test I opened up an existing test project. Schematic, layout, 3D render -- all look good. I tried a little board editing, and while I haven't checked all the functions i's sure nice to see the cut/paste/move/drag command keyboard shortcuts normalized between the schematic and PCB tools. I added a couple of layers to a 2-layer test board and it all went smoothly. The PCB layer opacity features are nice. Thanks, Cerebus, for nudging me to upgrade.
[edit] And it has hatched area fills! I don't know if I need them, but it's a nice feature.
[edit] And it has hatched area fills! I don't know if I need them, but it's a nice feature.
Can you elaborate on the steps for setting up your own library path? I'm in exactly the same situation and have been putting it off because I didn't want to mess around.
They show version 6.0.0-rc1 as 100% complete with no open issues, but there isn't either an RC2, or a full release milestone.
Does this mean it's ready and they are just working on logistics of pushing out the official v6 release?
Is there some other place where they are keeping track of what's left to do for the 6 release?
They show version 6.0.0-rc1 as 100% complete with no open issues, but there isn't either an RC2, or a full release milestone.
Does this mean it's ready and they are just working on logistics of pushing out the official v6 release?
Is there some other place where they are keeping track of what's left to do for the 6 release?
Complete means that task (RC1) was done. Other tasks remain to be done before release.
I like what I see. There are numerous improvements to functionality and "quality of life".
I can't see going backwards to 5.x from a nightly....
I like what I see. There are numerous improvements to functionality and "quality of life".
Just liking the new experience. :)
Has anyone here achieved a successful install of the reynaud nightlies on Ubuntu or Mint virtual machine lately, as in the last few days?
This legacy PPA should not be used anymore for new configuration. Please use official PPA instead:
ppa:kicad/kicad-dev-nightly
See https://www.kicad.org/download/ubuntu/ (https://www.kicad.org/download/ubuntu/) for details
Looks like 6.0.0 has been tagged in the source repository, I'm compiling it as I write this post. The master branch has already been switched to version "6.99.0". Libraries and 3D models were also tagged, I've already downloaded and installed them.
I'm guessing all that's left is writing the announcement ;)
sudo add-apt-repository --yes ppa:kicad/kicad-6.0-releases
sudo apt update
sudo apt install --install-recommends kicad
Using freshly produced code isnt always sensible.
The latest nightly from http://ppa.launchpad.net/kicad/kicad-dev-nightly/ubuntu (http://ppa.launchpad.net/kicad/kicad-dev-nightly/ubuntu) is "6.0.0-rc2-unknown-160328abc7~144~ubuntu21.10.1, release build" built on Dec 20 2021 21:03:28.
sudo add-apt-repository --yes ppa:kicad/kicad-dev-nightly
sudo apt update
sudo apt install kicad-nightlyI guess better to stick to "sudo add-apt-repository ppa:kicad/kicad-6.0-releases" nowThe latest nightly from http://ppa.launchpad.net/kicad/kicad-dev-nightly/ubuntu (http://ppa.launchpad.net/kicad/kicad-dev-nightly/ubuntu) is "6.0.0-rc2-unknown-160328abc7~144~ubuntu21.10.1, release build" built on Dec 20 2021 21:03:28.
No, it isn't. I've just installed the latest nightly using the following commands:Code: [Select]sudo add-apt-repository --yes ppa:kicad/kicad-dev-nightly
sudo apt update
sudo apt install kicad-nightly
The version reported is:
Version: 6.99.0-a9ca49a600~144~ubuntu20.04.1, release build
Date: Dec 23 2021 15:10:40
already getting 7.0 changes, the file format has already changed
Why do the file formats keep changing?File format includes generating KiCad version. Even if nothing changes each major version will have a "unique" format. This might change in the release if no actual changes to the format happen.
Quotealready getting 7.0 changes, the file format has already changed
Why do the file formats keep changing? One of the nice things about Altium is the backwards and forwards compatibility - I've used the '09 viewer to view '21 files and it works. Complains about new things it doesn't know about and outputs a list of them, but shows the essentials just fine. And, of course, the latest version opens the most ancient without quibbling.
I could understand it a format change happened once a decade or so, but every version? Suggests someone has not just dropped the ball but is dribbling with it.
Just downloaded V6.00
Now I have V6 and V6.99 nightly so I can compare new features. I'll only be using V6 for any manufactured boards though.
-Support for any font you want under the sun in the schematic and pcb editorHow would that work? Does it mean TTF fonts? Do you embed the font somehow? What happens if the font is not present on the opening machine?
-Support for any font you want under the sun in the schematic and pcb editorHow would that work? Does it mean TTF fonts? Do you embed the font somehow? What happens if the font is not present on the opening machine?
The KiCad project is proud to announce the release of version 6.0.0.
https://www.kicad.org/blog/2021/12/KiCad-6.0.0-Release/ (https://www.kicad.org/blog/2021/12/KiCad-6.0.0-Release/)
The KiCad project is proud to announce the release of version 6.0.0.
https://www.kicad.org/blog/2021/12/KiCad-6.0.0-Release/ (https://www.kicad.org/blog/2021/12/KiCad-6.0.0-Release/)
Excellent, and thanks for the notification.
But... I just went to download and I see that Windows 7 is 'unsupported'. Nothing new there, except that Windows 8.1 is 'unsupported, will most likely still function'. The implication is that it won't work on Windows 7. Is that the case?
Oh, pity. I was looking forward to trying 6 but doesn't look like I will be after all :(
I'd like to see that happen! I've been screwing around trying to get Python 3.9 working on Win 7. I even tried the Chocolatey package managerhttps://chocolatey.org/ (https://chocolatey.org/) which says I can do it but then fails..... :horse:
Oh, pity. Some googling seems to indicated that it is possible to make python 3.9 work on win7 by copying some files from a newer windows
The kicad repo contains all patches to make their python 3.9 plugin compatible with windows 7:
https://gitlab.com/kicad/packaging/vcpkg/-/tree/kicad/ports/python3
But sadly this patch it is not activated by default.
Holger
Hi! Building Kicad is relatively easy
Its explained in detail here:
>https://dev-docs.kicad.org/en/build/windows-msvc/ (https://dev-docs.kicad.org/en/build/windows-msvc/)
- Kicad "detects" this patch and shows a "nag-screen" on windows7 machines on startup.
So the developers spent A LOT OF WORK to prevent running the program on windows 7.
+++ RIP +++ Kicad 6,
I'm still under Win7 with NO MONEY for buying a new computer.
Thanks to all the developers for this brutal ending.
A happy new year to everybody who is still using Win7.
The comment in the code explains why it is necessary. They don't want to see bug reports from unsupported systems. This is not an empty or additional work, it serves the purpose bigger than just a nag screen.
Dual boot is a productivity killer. Unless there is a really really compelling reason to boot the other OS, and stay there for an appreciable time, it just won't happen after the first couple of goes.
VM would be much better but has it's own issues.
Thinking about this, I wonder if non-current Linux distros are prevented from running Kicad.
And... Windows 7 shouldn't actually need support since it is a mature OS with isn't being constantly dicked around with by Microsoft. The functionality is there and fixed
Support must be be very expensive to be worth the loss of that income stream. (Of course, since Kicad is free the sums are very different there.)
There are two types of hierarchy that can exist simultaneously: the first one has just been evoked and is of general use. The second consists in creating symbols in the library that appear like traditional symbols in the schematic, but which actually correspond to a schematic which describes their internal structure.
This second type is used to develop integrated circuits, because in this case you have to use function libraries in the schematic you are drawing.
Eeschema currently doesn’t treat this second case.
+++ RIP +++ Kicad 6,
I'm still under Win7 with NO MONEY for buying a new computer.
Thanks to all the developers for this brutal ending.
A happy new year to everybody who is still using Win7.
+++ RIP +++ Kicad 6,
I'm still under Win7 with NO MONEY for buying a new computer.
Thanks to all the developers for this brutal ending.
A happy new year to everybody who is still using Win7.
Why would you need a new computer? Just install Windows 10 on the one you have; it does not need more hardware resources. Last I tried, Win 7 license keys were still accepted by Win 10, hence the upgrade is totally free.
If someone feels the need to still use Windows 7 (which has not received security patches for nearly two years now, I believe) for whatever reason, I don't mind. But please don't whine about the fact that new software released today does not support Win 7.
+++ RIP +++ Kicad 6,
I'm still under Win7 with NO MONEY for buying a new computer.
Thanks to all the developers for this brutal ending.
A happy new year to everybody who is still using Win7.
Why would you need a new computer? Just install Windows 10 on the one you have; it does not need more hardware resources. Last I tried, Win 7 license keys were still accepted by Win 10, hence the upgrade is totally free.
If someone feels the need to still use Windows 7 (which has not received security patches for nearly two years now, I believe) for whatever reason, I don't mind. But please don't whine about the fact that new software released today does not support Win 7.
Windows 7 is completely insecure at this point
But when was the last time you saw a software product with good, extensive and complete documentation?
don't whine about the fact that new software released today does not support Win 7
Quotedon't whine about the fact that new software released today does not support Win 7
The problem not that it doesn't support Win7, it is that it actively breaks on Win7. It's the difference between "If it works it works, otherwise tough shit" and "might have worked but we're making sure you can't try and find out".
Quotedon't whine about the fact that new software released today does not support Win 7
The problem not that it doesn't support Win7, it is that it actively breaks on Win7. It's the difference between "If it works it works, otherwise tough shit" and "might have worked but we're making sure you can't try and find out".
Quotedon't whine about the fact that new software released today does not support Win 7
The problem not that it doesn't support Win7, it is that it actively breaks on Win7. It's the difference between "If it works it works, otherwise tough shit" and "might have worked but we're making sure you can't try and find out".
I seem to recall one of the reasons for having an OS was to provide a consistent programming interface across different hardware and time. If the OS itself breaks software over time, that seems to be counter productive. I suppose it does seem to match the thinking of the day where everything is disposable and it is expected that you throw away the old and just buy the new all the time.
It seems to me it should be imperative that a new OS not break the old software. But I think you are talking about a new release of the software not working on the older OS. That's a different matter.
Someone referred to Windows 7 as being four versions back from the current. So Win 10, Win 8, Win 7... I only count two. Vista was before 7, right? Did I miss another named release after Win 7? Was it Windows Ralph maybe?
QuoteWindows 7 is completely insecure at this point
So what? That has nothing to do with the functionality of running programs. It is not the business of an ECAD suite to worry about system security.
Quotedon't whine about the fact that new software released today does not support Win 7
The problem not that it doesn't support Win7, it is that it actively breaks on Win7. It's the difference between "If it works it works, otherwise tough shit" and "might have worked but we're making sure you can't try and find out".
I seem to recall one of the reasons for having an OS was to provide a consistent programming interface across different hardware and time. If the OS itself breaks software over time, that seems to be counter productive. I suppose it does seem to match the thinking of the day where everything is disposable and it is expected that you throw away the old and just buy the new all the time.
It seems to me it should be imperative that a new OS not break the old software. But I think you are talking about a new release of the software not working on the older OS. That's a different matter.
yes, if you insist on an old OS, you might be stuck with old softwareSomeone referred to Windows 7 as being four versions back from the current. So Win 10, Win 8, Win 7... I only count two. Vista was before 7, right? Did I miss another named release after Win 7? Was it Windows Ralph maybe?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Microsoft_Windows_versions
7,8,8.1,10,11
Is 11 a thing? I thought we were still on 10!
My local tame, and very competent, Windows developer says that this kind of thing is actually Microsoft's fault.
QuoteWindows 7 is completely insecure at this point
So what? That has nothing to do with the functionality of running programs. It is not the business of an ECAD suite to worry about system security.
It's your business as computer admin.
I don't get the complaints here.
if software uses those APIs, then it will obviously not work on older versions
That's fine. But if it doesn't use those APIs? The complaint is that we are not being allowed to find out, or to provide compatible APIs. Instead, it is being actively broken.Who is stopping you from providing it? Python could check the version of the OS and provide its own implementation of the missing API if it wants to work on W7. Or not use that API at all.
But if it doesn't use those APIs?Win7 used CodePage 65001 and had completely fragmented UTF-8 support. Win10 uses UTF-8 natively and has only partial legacy support for CP65001 using special interfaces intended for things like file conversion and migration to UTF-8. The two are not compatible, and having to support both is grossly impractical since character set encoding is used everywhere, and this particular MS legacy stuff is not easily encapsulated or abstracted out. Basically, MS has abandoned CP65001 in favor of UTF-8. Which is a good technical reason to throw Win7 in the trashbin of history where it belongs.
My computer admin says relevant precautions are in place and it is fine.
Yes, it is one of the tricks Microsoft use to push users to Windows 10. No technical reason for it, just a way of fucking up people that want proper windows with actual borders and discoverable features.
But if it doesn't use those APIs?Win7 used CodePage 65001 and had completely fragmented UTF-8 support. Win10 uses UTF-8 natively and has only partial legacy support for CP65001 using special interfaces intended for things like file conversion and migration to UTF-8. The two are not compatible, and having to support both is grossly impractical since character set encoding is used everywhere, and this particular MS legacy stuff is not easily encapsulated or abstracted out. Basically, MS has abandoned CP65001 in favor of UTF-8. Which is a good technical reason to throw Win7 in the trashbin of history where it belongs.
I don't get the complaints here. Win has excellent backwards compatibility. Stuff from 1995 still works today. But they have to introduce new APIs in new versions of windows, and if software uses those APIs, then it will obviously not work on older versions. Sure, you can write software using only APIs from 1995, but why?
I don't get the complaints here. Win has excellent backwards compatibility. Stuff from 1995 still works today. But they have to introduce new APIs in new versions of windows, and if software uses those APIs, then it will obviously not work on older versions. Sure, you can write software using only APIs from 1995, but why?
Old software only works by chance, not by design or mandate. I have some old software that works under Win 10, but just barely. The File Open dialog is really messed up and many other features of the UI are crippled.
Microsoft does not offer support for older program interfaces. In fact, they intentionally end support for some things like help files. I suppose there is a reason why, but I can't see where this doesn't hurt MS in the end. I guess it's just a tiny paper cut. I hope it doesn't get infected. ::)
I have some old software that works under Win 10, but just barely. The File Open dialog is really messed up and many other features of the UI are crippled.This is an interesting statement because Microsoft intentionally has kept the file open dialogs exactly the same across Windows versions depending on the API you use. So on Windows 10, programs using the Windows 98 era API will get the 98 era file dialog which is awful. Getting the Vista+ dialog requires using the Vista+ API.
I don't get the complaints here. Win has excellent backwards compatibility. Stuff from 1995 still works today. But they have to introduce new APIs in new versions of windows, and if software uses those APIs, then it will obviously not work on older versions. Sure, you can write software using only APIs from 1995, but why?
Old software only works by chance, not by design or mandate. I have some old software that works under Win 10, but just barely. The File Open dialog is really messed up and many other features of the UI are crippled.
Microsoft does not offer support for older program interfaces. In fact, they intentionally end support for some things like help files. I suppose there is a reason why, but I can't see where this doesn't hurt MS in the end. I guess it's just a tiny paper cut. I hope it doesn't get infected. ::)
The help files system aka CHM had weekly CVEs filed and they threw them in the dumpster. It's bad design dating back to the IE era of development.
QuoteI have some old software that works under Win 10, but just barely. The File Open dialog is really messed up and many other features of the UI are crippled.This is an interesting statement because Microsoft intentionally has kept the file open dialogs exactly the same across Windows versions depending on the API you use. So on Windows 10, programs using the Windows 98 era API will get the 98 era file dialog which is awful. Getting the Vista+ dialog requires using the Vista+ API.
QuoteQuoteI have some old software that works under Win 10, but just barely. The File Open dialog is really messed up and many other features of the UI are crippled.This is an interesting statement because Microsoft intentionally has kept the file open dialogs exactly the same across Windows versions depending on the API you use. So on Windows 10, programs using the Windows 98 era API will get the 98 era file dialog which is awful. Getting the Vista+ dialog requires using the Vista+ API.
I have no idea what you mean by "exactly the same across Windows versions". The bottom line is the program has worked under every version of Windows from 95 up to at least Vista. I think it started crapping out on Win 8, but I'm not certain (I don't have a copy of Win 7 running). I know it works poorly under Win 10. So where is the preservation??? When you talk about using an API, you are talking about the application using the API. I don't think the program has changed anything. The variable is the version of Windows.
Ok, so you agree that MS does not support older program interfaces and trashes some features intentionally.Yes, some features that are better off dead. Nobody used those horrible CHM interfaces.
QuoteQuoteI have some old software that works under Win 10, but just barely. The File Open dialog is really messed up and many other features of the UI are crippled.This is an interesting statement because Microsoft intentionally has kept the file open dialogs exactly the same across Windows versions depending on the API you use. So on Windows 10, programs using the Windows 98 era API will get the 98 era file dialog which is awful. Getting the Vista+ dialog requires using the Vista+ API.
I have no idea what you mean by "exactly the same across Windows versions". The bottom line is the program has worked under every version of Windows from 95 up to at least Vista. I think it started crapping out on Win 8, but I'm not certain (I don't have a copy of Win 7 running). I know it works poorly under Win 10. So where is the preservation??? When you talk about using an API, you are talking about the application using the API. I don't think the program has changed anything. The variable is the version of Windows.
Yes, Microsoft has elected to "box in" the file dialogs to APIs. Depending on which API you use, that's the generation of file dialog you get even on Windows 10 which is using the Vista
This page roughly shows you the three generation if dialogs https://www.codeproject.com/Articles/16678/Vista-Goodies-in-C-Using-the-New-Vista-File-Dialog (https://www.codeproject.com/Articles/16678/Vista-Goodies-in-C-Using-the-New-Vista-File-Dialog)
Your old programs should be using the first, Windows 2000 dialog. It works the same as it always have.
QuoteOk, so you agree that MS does not support older program interfaces and trashes some features intentionally.Yes, some features that are better off dead. Nobody used those horrible CHM interfaces.
Of course they did. That's why so many old programs no longer have help. It was used extensively and now unsupported.There are a lot of independent CHM viewers.
Nobody used those horrible CHM interfaces.
Not supporting it menas that new applications would not use it as a help format.
Pah! 27 new ones to my system in 2021 used it.But do they come from 2021 software? Of course you will always have some in any year if you keep installing software from 1995.
How to overcome the the installation lock on Windows 7?
Python 3.9, which itself doesn't support Windows 7 anymore.
QuotePython 3.9, which itself doesn't support Windows 7 anymore.
I haven't looked into that yet, but my StreamDeck doesn't support Windows 7 in that it won't install, and if you extract the files it won't run because some DLLs are missing. The trick there is to shove fake DLLs in the install directory, and it runs. The only purpose of those DLLs is to answer the question "is this W8.1+?". The DLLs do nothing other than fake that. Maybe Python9 is similar.
Now I tried to build KiCad from source, that can be done on Windows with MSYS2, and would thus yield executables working on Win 7. This is documented there: https://dev-docs.kicad.org/en/build/windows-msys2/ , and I am used to building cross-platform apps using MSYS2, so no problem with that. So far, it won't build though, because KiCad 6 apparently requires the very latest version of wxWindows (3.1.5 IIRC), while MSYS still has wxWindows 3.0... so we'll have to wait till MSYS2 updates wxWindows. And then I'll keep you posted. If it does build, that will be a solution.
You'll have to dual-boot with windows 7 which is not ideal
QuoteYou'll have to dual-boot with windows 7 which is not ideal
Dead loss. I often fire up Altium briefly to check something, and if that means saving and closing everything, restarting with a differerent OS then 2 mins later do the reverse... Not going to happen.
That is another option. The free VMWare allows for only one VM but that could be a limitation because I recon you'll want to run more VMs simultaneously.QuoteYou'll have to dual-boot with windows 7 which is not ideal
Dead loss. I often fire up Altium briefly to check something, and if that means saving and closing everything, restarting with a differerent OS then 2 mins later do the reverse... Not going to happen.
In that case, what about running altium in VMware on Linux? You'll have to pay $249 but that's one time only.
The free VMWare allows for only one VM
QuoteYou'll have to dual-boot with windows 7 which is not ideal
Dead loss. I often fire up Altium briefly to check something, and if that means saving and closing everything, restarting with a differerent OS then 2 mins later do the reverse... Not going to happen.
In that case, what about running altium in VMware on Linux? You'll have to pay $249 but that's one time only.
What's the $249 for?
Why, if one was a Linux user, would one choose a proprietary hypervisor when there are perfectly good free ones?
Wouldn't it be easier to use the Linux version of KiCad?
You'll have to dual-boot with windows 7 which is not ideal [...]
Why, if one was a Linux user, would one choose a proprietary hypervisor when there are perfectly good free ones? The only reason to be running VMware workstation under Linux that I can see is if one wanted to maintain integration/compatibility with a VMware ESXi estate, or if VMware is all that one understood how to 'drive'. (I've nothing against VMware itself, I use VMware fusion myself on macOS, but I do have ESXi machines to integrate with.)This is a bit off-topic but what VMware can and Virtualbox does not is being able to run 3D accelleration in a virtual machine. Or better put: all my attempts to use 3D (like OpenGl) in Virtualbox has failed where with VMware it worked right out of the box.
Why, if one was a Linux user, would one choose a proprietary hypervisor when there are perfectly good free ones? The only reason to be running VMware workstation under Linux that I can see is if one wanted to maintain integration/compatibility with a VMware ESXi estate, or if VMware is all that one understood how to 'drive'. (I've nothing against VMware itself, I use VMware fusion myself on macOS, but I do have ESXi machines to integrate with.)This is a bit off-topic but what VMware can and Virtualbox does not is being able to run 3D accelleration in a virtual machine. Or better put: all my attempts to use 3D (like OpenGl) in Virtualbox has failed where with VMware it worked right out of the box.
Why, if one was a Linux user, would one choose a proprietary hypervisor when there are perfectly good free ones? The only reason to be running VMware workstation under Linux that I can see is if one wanted to maintain integration/compatibility with a VMware ESXi estate, or if VMware is all that one understood how to 'drive'. (I've nothing against VMware itself, I use VMware fusion myself on macOS, but I do have ESXi machines to integrate with.)This is a bit off-topic but what VMware can and Virtualbox does not is being able to run 3D accelleration in a virtual machine. Or better put: all my attempts to use 3D (like OpenGl) in Virtualbox has failed where with VMware it worked right out of the box.
I've had Altium working "well enough" in a VirtualBox VM on Linux and macOS, but I'd agree one's chances of first time success are higher with VMWare.
QuotePython 3.9, which itself doesn't support Windows 7 anymore.
I haven't looked into that yet, but my StreamDeck doesn't support Windows 7 in that it won't install, and if you extract the files it won't run because some DLLs are missing. The trick there is to shove fake DLLs in the install directory, and it runs. The only purpose of those DLLs is to answer the question "is this W8.1+?". The DLLs do nothing other than fake that. Maybe Python9 is similar.
Nah, unfortunately. This is a bunch of api-ms-win* DLLs here that were introduced in Win 8 or 8.1 and I don't think you can fake them to get any useful result. They contain a lot of system functions.
If someone manages to "fake" that, that would make a number of applications usable in Win 7, such as Python 3.9+, Vivado, KiCad, and many others...
Now I tried to build KiCad from source, that can be done on Windows with MSYS2, and would thus yield executables working on Win 7. This is documented there: https://dev-docs.kicad.org/en/build/windows-msys2/ (https://dev-docs.kicad.org/en/build/windows-msys2/) , and I am used to building cross-platform apps using MSYS2, so no problem with that. So far, it won't build though, because KiCad 6 apparently requires the very latest version of wxWindows (3.1.5 IIRC), while MSYS still has wxWindows 3.0... so we'll have to wait till MSYS2 updates wxWindows. And then I'll keep you posted. If it does build, that will be a solution.
Now I tried to build KiCad from source, that can be done on Windows with MSYS2, and would thus yield executables working on Win 7. This is documented there: https://dev-docs.kicad.org/en/build/windows-msys2/ , and I am used to building cross-platform apps using MSYS2, so no problem with that. So far, it won't build though, because KiCad 6 apparently requires the very latest version of wxWindows (3.1.5 IIRC), while MSYS still has wxWindows 3.0... so we'll have to wait till MSYS2 updates wxWindows. And then I'll keep you posted. If it does build, that will be a solution.
Wouldn't it be easier to use the Linux version of KiCad?
You'll have to dual-boot with windows 7 which is not ideal, but still saves you much time,
also because I expect monthly updates for KiCad V6.
Building wxwidgets from source is not that difficult on Windows. Though I find it a bit ignorant that Kicad binaries don't work on Windows 7 out of the box. Most of the professional CAD software does because a lot of places still use Windows 7.
... A few pages back I complained that I couldn't get the 6.0 nightlies running in virtualbox mint linux 20.2. ...
QuotePython 3.9, which itself doesn't support Windows 7 anymore.
I haven't looked into that yet, but my StreamDeck doesn't support Windows 7 in that it won't install, and if you extract the files it won't run because some DLLs are missing. The trick there is to shove fake DLLs in the install directory, and it runs. The only purpose of those DLLs is to answer the question "is this W8.1+?". The DLLs do nothing other than fake that. Maybe Python9 is similar.
Nah, unfortunately. This is a bunch of api-ms-win* DLLs here that were introduced in Win 8 or 8.1 and I don't think you can fake them to get any useful result. They contain a lot of system functions.
If someone manages to "fake" that, that would make a number of applications usable in Win 7, such as Python 3.9+, Vivado, KiCad, and many others...
Now I tried to build KiCad from source, that can be done on Windows with MSYS2, and would thus yield executables working on Win 7. This is documented there: https://dev-docs.kicad.org/en/build/windows-msys2/ (https://dev-docs.kicad.org/en/build/windows-msys2/) , and I am used to building cross-platform apps using MSYS2, so no problem with that. So far, it won't build though, because KiCad 6 apparently requires the very latest version of wxWindows (3.1.5 IIRC), while MSYS still has wxWindows 3.0... so we'll have to wait till MSYS2 updates wxWindows. And then I'll keep you posted. If it does build, that will be a solution.
HI!
I've explained a working solution two or three pages earlier:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/kicad/kicad-6-is-coming (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/kicad/kicad-6-is-coming)!/msg3897506/#msg3897506
"vcpkg/vs2019" is the officially way to build kicad 6.0.
If you enable the win7 compatibility patch you'll get a set of binaries which run fine under win7
But windows 10 is also good
QuoteBut windows 10 is also good
Windows 10 is pretty much the same as Windows 7 under the bonnet so technically it is fine. The problem with it is that the user interface is shit, confusing and ignores even Microsoft's own guidelines. But it has to do that so it can be different and 'new'. There's also the forced updates, lack of quality control, the push online income streams, etc.
I started shifting over projects from version 5 to 6. Firstly I needed to add my custom symbols and footprints, but it's also worth noting there's quite a few changes to the standard library of symbols. Quite a few of the standard schematic symbols need to have the library reference updated, otherwise when you go into the PCB editor it will delete the footprint. I was partway through a project, so the schematic was complete but the PCB was half done. Probably my own fault there...
The 3D model references all need to be reselected too, otherwise nothing will show up in the 3D view of the PCB, but that seems to be purely cosmetic. The symbols in the schematic can be updated in bulk with only a few clicks but I can't see how to update all 3D models in one go.
Also, does anyone find the path finding ability when laying tracks almost broken? The PCB editor starts to lag badly after 1 or 2 bend in the tracks and never wants to lay a track through obviously large enough gaps unless its only 1 bend. There has obviously been significant changes in that regard compared to version 5.
And as long as most people continue to use windows, microsoft gets away with it and nothing will change.
Only drug dealers and software companies call their customers "users".
How's systemd going for you?I personally like systemd and it improved my life quite a bit. I had no issues with it, and creating services never been easier.
Note that the freshly released KiCad 6.0 on some Linux distros is still a bit shaky.
7. Footprints and footprint libraries
7.1. Managing footprint libraries
NOTE
TODO: Write this section
7.2. Creating and editing footprints
NOTE
TODO: Write this section
7.2.1. Custom pad shapes
7.2.2. Footprint attributes
NOTE
Mention net ties here
7.2.3. Footprint wizards
For more information about creating new footprint wizards, see the Scripting section of the Advanced Topics chapter.
8. Advanced topics
And as long as most people continue to use windows, microsoft gets away with it and nothing will change.
Only drug dealers and software companies call their customers "users".
As long as most people switch to Windows 10, you mean. Nothing wrong with Windows pre-8 that couldn't have been done without the screwup of Metro. But instead of holding out, like happened to force a rethink of Win8 and ME, everyone succumbs to the W10 giveaway and Microsoft's dirty tricks.
...
it's crazy to say we should all be holding out
It's not as if this is the only place, there are 29 occurrences of "TODO" in the pcbnew help file alone.
Personally I find this very embarrassing. I've been doing quite a lot of proselytising recently telling people who have previously tried and discarded KiCad things like "No, you should try KiCad again, they're getting better and better". Now I'm going to have to eat my words, "No, you were right, it is still amateur hour.".
Instead of complaining about the help files, do something about it. I spent 3 years (2004-2007) translating the original French help files into English with the help of several volunteer translators. I started off using machine translation as I don't speak French.
4.4. Working with footprints
NOTE
TODO: Write this section - covers footprint properties, updating from library, etc.
4.5. Working with pads
NOTE
TODO: Write this section - covers pad properties
4.6. Working with zones
NOTE
TODO: Write this section
In the commercial world a decision like that would get a project manager fired the next working day after the "release" got into the hands of customers with the letter from HR citing "reputational damage", "damage to the standing of the product in the marketplace", "costs to rectify", "loss of goodwill" and so on.
Point is, whereas I can understand it from a commercial vendor, I find it unacceptable for open-source software. Open-source software should never add anything to explicitely prevent people from building and/or running the software on any platform they see fit, under their own responsibility.
I find this pretty bad. As I said earlier, even Firefox, which would be much more sensitive to potential security issues, has not done this.
Combined income of Mozilla Foundation and Mozilla Corporation
2015 $420 million
2016 $520 million
2017 $562 million
2018 $436 million
// Python 3.8 switched to Windows 8+ API, we do not support Windows 7 and will not
// attempt to hack around it. A normal user will never get here because the Python DLL
// is missing dependencies - and because it is not dynamically loaded, KiCad will not even
// start without patching Python or its WinAPI dependency. This is just to create a nag dialog
// for those who run patched Python and prevent them from submitting bug reports.
So, I looked up in the source code to locate this check, and got the bottom line. It's only, and entirely due to Python. From comments in the source code:Maybe you can get Kicad to make your binaries -if you get that far- available on their website. I'm sure you'll be doing a lot of people a favour. Not supporting Windows7 is way too soon.Quote// Python 3.8 switched to Windows 8+ API, we do not support Windows 7 and will not
// attempt to hack around it. A normal user will never get here because the Python DLL
// is missing dependencies - and because it is not dynamically loaded, KiCad will not even
// start without patching Python or its WinAPI dependency. This is just to create a nag dialog
// for those who run patched Python and prevent them from submitting bug reports.
So it's nothing related to KiCad source itself, or even wxWidgets, but Python only. There's actually another app I use that requires Python, and the same problem - latest versions don't run anymore.
Now, under MSYS2, Python is at 3.9.7, and it works - so the MSYS2 Python package is built accordingly. This is why KiCad builds without an issue and has no problem launching... But still exits when it initializes Python. The reason is that I try running the built KiCad outside of MSYS2. One easy workaround is to run KiCad from within MSYS2 - actually, I noticed MSYS2 has a package for KiCad 6.0.0, so it should work there.
But I'd like to make it independent of MSYS2. And, I don't much care about Python scripting anyway in KiCad, so I'm currently re-building without this. Of course, it should also be possible to build Python 3.9 so that it runs on Win 7, and use that. Might look into that later.
I'll keep you posted... I guess a few people at least may be interested. And if not, at least you have the bottom line.
How about creating a new topic on whining about Windows 7 support by KiCAD and staying with actual V6.0 news in this topic.
The 3D model references all need to be reselected too, otherwise nothing will show up in the 3D view of the PCB, but that seems to be purely cosmetic. The symbols in the schematic can be updated in bulk with only a few clicks but I can't see how to update all 3D models in one go.
The 3D model references all need to be reselected too, otherwise nothing will show up in the 3D view of the PCB, but that seems to be purely cosmetic. The symbols in the schematic can be updated in bulk with only a few clicks but I can't see how to update all 3D models in one go.
Yeah. After looking at this, it's because the name of the environment variables for the various paths, including 3D models, have changed. So any existing design made with an older version will suffer here.
I think they could have done something to ease the migration...
* I did manage to build a fully working KiCad for Windows 7, including Pcbnew which was the hardest part - this is the one that absolutely requires Python, the other KiCad executables can run without it.
It sounds too easy, so there must be a reason it won't work, but how about going to www.python.org (http://www.python.org) and downloading and installing 3.8 on your Win 7 machine.That would not do anything to KiCad. They are using Python as a library for scripting. Specific version of Python is linked to the final binary, it does not use anything from the outside system.
* I did manage to build a fully working KiCad for Windows 7, including Pcbnew which was the hardest part - this is the one that absolutely requires Python, the other KiCad executables can run without it.
Are parts of the program written in Python now, like what Eagle did with its scripting language? Or is it just the coder mentality of the devs shining through?
I never really came across a good use case for scripting in PCB CAD software. The only time I've heard of it being useful is for placing components (LED clocks are a good example). But that could be achieved by importing the component positions from a file, created in the user's favourite scripting language.
I added a new directory alias so all the KISYS3DMOD will work now. But am I right in thinking the old KiCad 5 .mod files wont work in 6? They are .wrl instead. The model doesn't work when I select the old models from KiCad 5. Some of them are missing in 6.
You can fix that in bulk by just setting KISYS3DMOD to whatever KICAD6_3DMODEL_DIR points to.
there won't be any installer (you'll have to extract it anywhere you like)
Oh, and I've seen that it now supports importing Cadstar and Altium? It's worth a shot, haven't tried it yet! Has anyone tried?
The 3D model references all need to be reselected too, otherwise nothing will show up in the 3D view of the PCB, but that seems to be purely cosmetic. The symbols in the schematic can be updated in bulk with only a few clicks but I can't see how to update all 3D models in one go.
Yeah. After looking at this, it's because the name of the environment variables for the various paths, including 3D models, have changed. So any existing design made with an older version will suffer here.
I think they could have done something to ease the migration...
Oh, and I've seen that it now supports importing Cadstar and Altium? It's worth a shot, haven't tried it yet! Has anyone tried?
I haven't tried either of those, but I tried the Eagle import recently for a third party board that I had a very poor pinout guide for but could get the original Eagle files. It did a good job as far as it went (the Eagle schematic and Eagle PCB are still two separate, independent objects as far as KiCad is concerned but it served my, read-only, purposes). Last time I tried it on an older version it was a disaster.
Now just a note regarding the schematic editor: while it got a few new nice features, there's something that is, IMO, still severely lacking: the support of TrueType fonts. The default font is OK(-ish) for PCBs, although I would also like being able to select different fonts, but for schematics, it's really annoying. It doesn't look clean on schematics, especially on screen, and even makes it hard to read at lower zoom levels. I know this was one feature listed for v6 actually - and I'm disappointed it didn't end up in it.
Now just a note regarding the schematic editor: while it got a few new nice features, there's something that is, IMO, still severely lacking: the support of TrueType fonts. The default font is OK(-ish) for PCBs, although I would also like being able to select different fonts, but for schematics, it's really annoying. It doesn't look clean on schematics, especially on screen, and even makes it hard to read at lower zoom levels. I know this was one feature listed for v6 actually - and I'm disappointed it didn't end up in it.
Somebody has done an independent add-on, but more oriented to presentation elements than replacing the Hershey fonts; native support for "any font, not just Hershey" is slated for V7.
Now just a note regarding the schematic editor: while it got a few new nice features, there's something that is, IMO, still severely lacking: the support of TrueType fonts. The default font is OK(-ish) for PCBs, although I would also like being able to select different fonts, but for schematics, it's really annoying. It doesn't look clean on schematics, especially on screen, and even makes it hard to read at lower zoom levels. I know this was one feature listed for v6 actually - and I'm disappointed it didn't end up in it.
Microsoft has dropped all the Windows update servers for Windows 7 [...] They also nuked all downloads from their web pages for Windows 7
Now just a note regarding the schematic editor: while it got a few new nice features, there's something that is, IMO, still severely lacking: the support of TrueType fonts. The default font is OK(-ish) for PCBs, although I would also like being able to select different fonts, but for schematics, it's really annoying. It doesn't look clean on schematics, especially on screen, and even makes it hard to read at lower zoom levels. I know this was one feature listed for v6 actually - and I'm disappointed it didn't end up in it.
Somebody has done an independent add-on, but more oriented to presentation elements than replacing the Hershey fonts; native support for "any font, not just Hershey" is slated for V7.
Custom fonts already added to the latest 7.0 nightlies.
(I get it that the graphics engine is probably the same for schematics and layout, which IMO is a mistake, but that's probably KiCad's long legacy.)
(I get it that the graphics engine is probably the same for schematics and layout, which IMO is a mistake, but that's probably KiCad's long legacy.)
I did not realize schematics entry and PCB layout had a common legacy in KiCad. To me they alwas felt like they were originally developed by two entirely separate teams?
What teams? The original KiCad was essentially developed by one guy.
What teams? The original KiCad was essentially developed by one guy.
Thanks, I had not realized. I have been assuming all along that eeschema and pcbnew came from different origins since their user interfaces feel so different. (Different command letters for equivalent commands, different logic for commands with/without prior selection etc.).
And I think I need to clarify, Test Label Text and LBMxxxx are written in goofy fonts, font rendering is not that bad :) The jagged lines from no AA or subpixel rendering is all there though.
Certainly, if you're one of those who can't tell that Eagle schematics look terrible (in particular for the lack of antialiasing, and questionable symbols), I can understand it's not a problem for you.I like how Eagle schematics look like, so obviously it is all a matter of personal preference.
If you want to see what decent schematic rendering looks like - Altium is a good start.I've seen plenty of shitty schematics done in Altium. That's where my concern with allowing custom fonts comes from.
I tried it. Here is an assortment of random fonts. Currently there seems to be a bug where only standard font gets selection highlight outline. So it it impossible to see selected items.
Also, no anti-aliasing, since those labels disappear with AA, at least in my VM, which does not have ideal 3D acceleration.
Also one thing I noticed is that size control is harder with custom fonts. The same size in points results in different visual heights. So "C6" and "22 uF" have the same size, I only changed the font name. Yet they look very different. So alignment with other schematic elements may be an issue. Probably less of an issue if you stick with one font. "TP6" and "OUT" were on the same level in the original font, but here they are shifted with two different fonts. Edit: Although this one is just the optical effect because of different sizes, baseline is the same.
Thanks. So for now, it doesn't really help readability and kinda looks like shit. I'm not considering the bugs - of course there will be for a while. But I'm afraid the rendering aspect itself may never really improve unless they make a major modification... (I get it that the graphics engine is probably the same for schematics and layout, which IMO is a mistake, but that's probably KiCad's long legacy.)
any idea about inclusion of korean/japanese fonts ?Now just a note regarding the schematic editor: while it got a few new nice features, there's something that is, IMO, still severely lacking: the support of TrueType fonts. The default font is OK(-ish) for PCBs, although I would also like being able to select different fonts, but for schematics, it's really annoying. It doesn't look clean on schematics, especially on screen, and even makes it hard to read at lower zoom levels. I know this was one feature listed for v6 actually - and I'm disappointed it didn't end up in it.
Somebody has done an independent add-on, but more oriented to presentation elements than replacing the Hershey fonts; native support for "any font, not just Hershey" is slated for V7.
Custom fonts already added to the latest 7.0 nightlies. Only 3d viewer support is lacking and some bug fixes over time needed.
any idea about inclusion of korean/japanese fonts ?Now just a note regarding the schematic editor: while it got a few new nice features, there's something that is, IMO, still severely lacking: the support of TrueType fonts. The default font is OK(-ish) for PCBs, although I would also like being able to select different fonts, but for schematics, it's really annoying. It doesn't look clean on schematics, especially on screen, and even makes it hard to read at lower zoom levels. I know this was one feature listed for v6 actually - and I'm disappointed it didn't end up in it.
Somebody has done an independent add-on, but more oriented to presentation elements than replacing the Hershey fonts; native support for "any font, not just Hershey" is slated for V7.
Custom fonts already added to the latest 7.0 nightlies. Only 3d viewer support is lacking and some bug fixes over time needed.
Likely none of the original code exists today :popcorn: As part of a small team I've been working on an inherited project as well for a couple of years and by now I think we have touched about 95% of the original code.(I get it that the graphics engine is probably the same for schematics and layout, which IMO is a mistake, but that's probably KiCad's long legacy.)
I did not realize schematics entry and PCB layout had a common legacy in KiCad. To me they alwas felt like they were originally developed by two entirely separate teams?
What teams? The original KiCad was essentially developed by one guy.
And, I didn't take a deep look at the source code - especially recently - but this would be my guess that the graphics engine for drawing schematics and PCBs is essentially the same, or at least with a large chunk of common stuff.
Hmm, looks like the macOS builds of the nightlies have been failing for the last 19 days. I wanted to grab the latest 6.99 to look at the font stuff and the cupboard was empty - no nightlies at all. The font stuff hadn't made it into the nightlies for the last macOS build of 6.99 that was available before xmas (and which is now missing too).
(I get it that the graphics engine is probably the same for schematics and layout, which IMO is a mistake, but that's probably KiCad's long legacy.)
I did not realize schematics entry and PCB layout had a common legacy in KiCad. To me they alwas felt like they were originally developed by two entirely separate teams?
What teams? The original KiCad was essentially developed by one guy.
And, I didn't take a deep look at the source code - especially recently - but this would be my guess that the graphics engine for drawing schematics and PCBs is essentially the same, or at least with a large chunk of common stuff.
Anyway, point was not about the tools being separate executables, but the fact they probably share a significant chunk of code, in particular for the graphics rendering. They may have diverged a bit for the OpenGL backend while eeschema didn't have it yet, but otherwise there's probably a lot in common. delfinom can confirm that.
Couldn't they just have added text rendering in the schematic editor using *text rendering* and not reusing the underlying graphics engine, which kind of bites?
As a side note, I recommend against using "Comic Sans". Ever. For anything. ::)
As a side note, I recommend against using "Comic Sans". Ever. For anything. ::)
For a newcomer, what would be the right version to start learning KiCad, v5 or v6?V6, of course. Why learn on an old version?
For a newcomer, what would be the right version to start learning KiCad, v5 or v6?
As a side note, I recommend against using "Comic Sans". Ever. For anything. ::)
Why?
Anyway, point was not about the tools being separate executables, but the fact they probably share a significant chunk of code, in particular for the graphics rendering. They may have diverged a bit for the OpenGL backend while eeschema didn't have it yet, but otherwise there's probably a lot in common. delfinom can confirm that.
Please re-read what I wrote.
In the beginning there was no code shared between PCB and schematic.
Couldn't they just have added text rendering in the schematic editor using *text rendering* and not reusing the underlying graphics engine, which kind of bites?
"They" did not do it because the code to use the underlying engine can be used for Gerbers, which was originally the whole point
There is still a lot to do in kicad and I'd like to see pin/gate swapping with back propagation to the schematic, so I hope they do not waste time on an auto-router.
i have been using the kicad 5.1 and it has very poor simulation features. Am hoping that Kicad 6 has improved on the simulation features such tat we do not need to look for another external source of simulation.
Also hope the autorouting process is back so that it can be very helpful when training our beginner students.
Anyway, point was not about the tools being separate executables, but the fact they probably share a significant chunk of code, in particular for the graphics rendering. They may have diverged a bit for the OpenGL backend while eeschema didn't have it yet, but otherwise there's probably a lot in common. delfinom can confirm that.
Please re-read what I wrote.
In the beginning there was no code shared between PCB and schematic.
Oh really. Do you have proof of that? And are you saying that the original author of KiCad was so stupid that he never reused any part of his code in both tools?
Are you in particular (because this was my point) saying that no code at all was ever shared for the font rendering, while it was the same font and looked exactly the same in both? Uh?
i have been using the kicad 5.1 and it has very poor simulation features. Am hoping that Kicad 6 has improved on the simulation features such tat we do not need to look for another external source of simulation.
Also hope the autorouting process is back so that it can be very helpful when training our beginner students.
I don't think much has changed there. The simulation engine is still ngspice and you still have to hunt high and low for spice or xspice models for your components.
ngspice is fine, even EAGLE/autodesk have integrated it...not that it's saying anything but hey, it works and there's not much alternative because of how extremely niche and high level mathematics the simulators are.
v6 fixes some bugs and tweak but it's not much of an change over v5 I think.
However, there is now a maintainer for the simulator and he has big plans for v7, and potentially alot more awesome goodies ;)
Well, being able to use a component database should come first. That is the most important feature (that is still missing) to be able to use KiCad professionally for real.ngspice is fine, even EAGLE/autodesk have integrated it...not that it's saying anything but hey, it works and there's not much alternative because of how extremely niche and high level mathematics the simulators are.
v6 fixes some bugs and tweak but it's not much of an change over v5 I think.
However, there is now a maintainer for the simulator and he has big plans for v7, and potentially alot more awesome goodies ;)
Even Altium has switched to ngspice: https://resources.altium.com/p/a-first-look-at-altium-designer-20 (https://resources.altium.com/p/a-first-look-at-altium-designer-20). I hope some of these companies adopting ngspice throw in some resources to the developers.
Very glad to hear that there are big plans for including simulation in KiCad. I hope they focus on smoothing the workflow and output graphs first. I will keep an eye out.
Well, being able to use a component database should come first. That is the most important feature (that is still missing) to be able to use KiCad professionally for real.
Well, being able to use a component database should come first. That is the most important feature (that is still missing) to be able to use KiCad professionally for real.ngspice is fine, even EAGLE/autodesk have integrated it...not that it's saying anything but hey, it works and there's not much alternative because of how extremely niche and high level mathematics the simulators are.
v6 fixes some bugs and tweak but it's not much of an change over v5 I think.
However, there is now a maintainer for the simulator and he has big plans for v7, and potentially alot more awesome goodies ;)
Even Altium has switched to ngspice: https://resources.altium.com/p/a-first-look-at-altium-designer-20 (https://resources.altium.com/p/a-first-look-at-altium-designer-20). I hope some of these companies adopting ngspice throw in some resources to the developers.
Very glad to hear that there are big plans for including simulation in KiCad. I hope they focus on smoothing the workflow and output graphs first. I will keep an eye out.
I get that but having a database driven component management system would propel Kicad up to the level where Altium and Orcad are. Simulation is kinda meh. With free software like Ltspice and Microcap being around, simulation is pretty well served already.Well, being able to use a component database should come first. That is the most important feature (that is still missing) to be able to use KiCad professionally for real.ngspice is fine, even EAGLE/autodesk have integrated it...not that it's saying anything but hey, it works and there's not much alternative because of how extremely niche and high level mathematics the simulators are.
v6 fixes some bugs and tweak but it's not much of an change over v5 I think.
However, there is now a maintainer for the simulator and he has big plans for v7, and potentially alot more awesome goodies ;)
Even Altium has switched to ngspice: https://resources.altium.com/p/a-first-look-at-altium-designer-20 (https://resources.altium.com/p/a-first-look-at-altium-designer-20). I hope some of these companies adopting ngspice throw in some resources to the developers.
Very glad to hear that there are big plans for including simulation in KiCad. I hope they focus on smoothing the workflow and output graphs first. I will keep an eye out.
The few people planning to work on the simulator are also ones that have no interest in the component database.
There is someone else throwing around that feature for v7, whether it makes it in or not is a different story
We are a open source project, nobody is forced to work on things they don't have interest in. Unlike a job where you have to suck it up and do it ;)
I get that but having a database driven component management system would propel Kicad up to the level where Altium and Orcad are. Simulation is kinda meh. With free software like Ltspice and Microcap being around, simulation is pretty well served already.Well, being able to use a component database should come first. That is the most important feature (that is still missing) to be able to use KiCad professionally for real.ngspice is fine, even EAGLE/autodesk have integrated it...not that it's saying anything but hey, it works and there's not much alternative because of how extremely niche and high level mathematics the simulators are.
v6 fixes some bugs and tweak but it's not much of an change over v5 I think.
However, there is now a maintainer for the simulator and he has big plans for v7, and potentially alot more awesome goodies ;)
Even Altium has switched to ngspice: https://resources.altium.com/p/a-first-look-at-altium-designer-20 (https://resources.altium.com/p/a-first-look-at-altium-designer-20). I hope some of these companies adopting ngspice throw in some resources to the developers.
Very glad to hear that there are big plans for including simulation in KiCad. I hope they focus on smoothing the workflow and output graphs first. I will keep an eye out.
The few people planning to work on the simulator are also ones that have no interest in the component database.
There is someone else throwing around that feature for v7, whether it makes it in or not is a different story
We are a open source project, nobody is forced to work on things they don't have interest in. Unlike a job where you have to suck it up and do it ;)
You are not going to use one schematic for both a circuit board and simulation anyway because simulation often needs the use of dummy/extra components. Also having excess components slows simulation down so typically you only simulate parts of a circuit. IOW: don't fall into the trap thinking that having simulation integrated saves time for drawing a schematic twice; it doesn't.
As the reply of delfinom already indicates; the developers of Kicad seem to be unaware of the huge value of having a database driven component system. Love has to come from both sides...
A couple of years ago I have seriously considered of shelling out several k euro for someone to add a database driven component system to Kicad. However my (bad) experience with contributing to other open source projects has made me decide not to go this route. If there is no love from the core team for a feature then it won't be maintained and it is likely to be abandoned in future versions. So I spend the money at the local Orcad distributor.
AFAIK there is a specification for what a database driven component system for Kicad should look like and IIRC it looks pretty complete. And it is not like this is something new; I have been using Orcad with a database driven component system for 20+ years. There is tons of information from Altium and Orcad on how such a system should work. Copy & paste
Is anyone willing to start that discussion with the developers on the Gitlab site or the mailing list, or will it just remain on forums?
you are just being disrespectful of programmers if you are trying to say "why don't they all work on this to serve me"
Precisely! As an outsider looking in I'm simply stating what is missing. It is up to the developers to pick it up or not.Quoteyou are just being disrespectful of programmers if you are trying to say "why don't they all work on this to serve me"
But that isn't what they are saying. They are actually saying that if you want the product to appeal to the end user, and be treated as a grown-up product, it needs to do such and such. Being open source and all that, the developers are free to do whatever their desire dictates, but then they shouldn't be surprised if the end result doesn't appeal too much.
Professional users need a database driven component system so why hasn't this been implemented yet? And why get hostile towards people pointing that out? >:D
This seems to be the KiCad ethos, at least as put forward by KiCad people I have seen commenting on the EEVBlog forum. There seems to be a general antipathy from them towards experienced electronics professionals remarking on what an electronics CAD tool needs. The usual final retort is "well if you want that why don't you contribute" where contribute means "write code" completely ignoring that contributing requirements and insights is also contributing.
This seems to be the KiCad ethos, at least as put forward by KiCad people I have seen commenting on the EEVBlog forum. There seems to be a general antipathy from them towards experienced electronics professionals remarking on what an electronics CAD tool needs. The usual final retort is "well if you want that why don't you contribute" where contribute means "write code" completely ignoring that contributing requirements and insights is also contributing.
Just a quick note as a "KiCad person". No lead developer of KiCad would ever take this approach. We actively seek out experienced users and mine them for ideas about what would help their workflows. We maintain a contact sheet with large design houses to identify where their pain points are when using KiCad and actively work to remove these.
Now, KiCad users posting on eevblog forums are another story. They are welcome to broadcast any sort of provocative talk they like. That doesn't represent the KiCad project. If you are a professional CAD designer/engineer, we would welcome your input. This doesn't happen on forum postings, though. You can post issues on GitLab and we can arrange offline contact options as well to facilitate the sort of information exchange that we need to improve the system for everyone.
If you are a professional CAD designer/engineer, we would welcome your input.
That's a very complicated way to say "KiCad devs don't give a dead rat about what you all are talking here", because forums are usually lame, therefore you all must be noobs talking bollocks.
You know I would pay for Kicad if the paid option was for a useable interace.
OK.
https://giving.web.cern.ch/civicrm/contribute/transact?reset=1&id=6
The problem with these kind of projects is that people work on what they want to, what interests them, rather than what is needed. That's the nature of the beast and it would take much cannier project management than you ever see to steer the ship in the direction of doing "what's needed"
I get faced with someone whose only answer is to ignore the criticisms and fall back on "Why don't you go off and fix it?". Not everybody who has a criticism, insight, suggestion or whatever has the skillset to "Go and fix it."
I've noticed that they tend to just get closed, not acted on, no matter how much effort someone has put into authoring the ticket
QuoteI get faced with someone whose only answer is to ignore the criticisms and fall back on "Why don't you go off and fix it?". Not everybody who has a criticism, insight, suggestion or whatever has the skillset to "Go and fix it."
I'm really confused why you are going on this tangent. I have not seen any of this in this thread.
QuoteI've noticed that they tend to just get closed, not acted on, no matter how much effort someone has put into authoring the ticket
* citation required
If you haven't noticed there's a large pile of issues, and we aren't here to provide customer support. Crashes get fixed first, bugs get fixed second, then there is staring at wishlight items over time which can be months or years unforunately as there is not enough manpower or time to do everything.
In KiCad 5, I used a plugin to duplicate PCB footprint layouts based on hierarchical sheets:
https://github.com/MitjaNemec/Kicad_action_plugins
Are there any other options with KiCad 6, or just hang tight till there's some plugins available?
In KiCad 5, I used a plugin to duplicate PCB footprint layouts based on hierarchical sheets:
https://github.com/MitjaNemec/Kicad_action_plugins
Are there any other options with KiCad 6, or just hang tight till there's some plugins available?
Well I’ve started on porting the plugin, but as I’ll also refactor it, I don’t expect to finish before middle of February.
If you are in a hurry though, I believe that existing ReplicateLayout plugin from “5.99_test” branch should work with KiCad 6.0.x
So, summing up the arguments: "You need to do what I want and if you don't you're stupid"!
Did I get that right?
I really wish there was a "whining" or "whinging" filter for this forum...
I demand someone else do something about it!!! :popcorn:
I really wish there was a "whining" or "whinging" filter for this forum...
I demand someone else do something about it!!! :popcorn:
There's an "ignore user" feature. If you don't like what someone says you can use it and live in a little bubble of people that all agree with you.
I really wish there was a "whining" or "whinging" filter for this forum...
I demand someone else do something about it!!! :popcorn:
There's an "ignore user" feature. If you don't like what someone says you can use it and live in a little bubble of people that all agree with you.
You might have your "ignore tongue-in-cheek subtext" filter still turned on? ::)
That aside, you are putting JohnG down for a feature he did not ask for. He was not suggesting to ignore all posts from user X, but ignore all whining posts.
No, the argument is "Please listen to your users". I'm not even the one offering "do what I want suggestions" beyond "Consistent UI please" and "Please don't push it out the door with big chunks of the help file missing" which is a reasonably low bar to set for any software project.
No, the argument is "Please listen to your users". I'm not even the one offering "do what I want suggestions" beyond "Consistent UI please" and "Please don't push it out the door with big chunks of the help file missing" which is a reasonably low bar to set for any software project.
Hahah. O god you don't know the magnitude of the whining we get with the documentation.
1. OMG IT MUST BE TRANSLATED TO 50 LANGUAGES!
2. OMG IT MUST COMPLY WITH LINUX DISTROS XYZ POLICY
3. OMG IT MUST USE ABC TOOLCHAIN AND GENERATE AN EPUB FILE COMPATIBLE WITH MY 10 YEAR OLD KINDLE
The result is, all the documentation contributors have quit and we have been left with outdated docs.
We just had a 50+ angry mailing list chain kickoff because somehow, people think we are idiots and don't know how HTML works. Also making some claims about things without even having explored the topic (Just use asciidoctor! it does PDFs just fine! yea....except it has an outstanding defect of CJK font support being broken).
We are listening but the moment anything is attmepted there's another group that goes NOT LIKE THAT.
We are trying to redo the entire documentation tooling to actually make contributors not need to have a degree in Linux System Administration to write a sentence.
4.3. Editing object properties
All objects have properties that are editable in a dialog. Use the hotkey E or select Properties from the right-click context menu to edit the properties of selected item(s). You can only open the properties dialog if all the items you have selected are of the same type. To edit the properties of different types of items at one time, see the section below on bulk editing tools.
In properties dialogs, any field that contains a numeric value can also accept a basic math expression that results in a numeric value. For example, a dimension may be entered as 2 * 2mm, resulting in a value of 4mm. Basic arithmetic operators as well as parentheses for defining order of operations are supported.
4.4. Working with footprints
NOTE
TODO: Write this section - covers footprint properties, updating from library, etc.
4.5. Working with pads
NOTE
TODO: Write this section - covers pad properties
4.6. Working with zones
NOTE
TODO: Write this section
4.7. Graphical objects
Graphical objects (lines, arcs, rectangles, circles, polygons, and text) can exist on any layer but cannot be assigned to a net. Rectangles, circles, and polygons can be set to be filled or outlines in their properties dialogs. The line width property will control the width of the outline even for filled shapes. Line width can be set to 0 for filled shapes to disable the outline.
4.7.1. Creating graphical shapes
NOTE
TODO: Write this section
The result is, all the documentation contributors have quit and we have been left with outdated docs.
So, summing up the arguments: "You need to do what I want and if you don't you're stupid"!
Did I get that right?
No, the argument is "Please listen to your users". I'm not even the one offering "do what I want suggestions" beyond "Consistent UI please" and "Please don't push it out the door with big chunks of the help file missing" which is a reasonably low bar to set for any software project.
We are listening but the moment anything is attmepted there's another group that goes NOT LIKE THAT.
Show me a PCB CAD package that has coherent documentation nowadays... ;) When I need to know how to get something done in Allegro (Orcad) or Atlium I use Google to find a forum post or instruction video. Usually that is far more informative than using the help function. 15+ years ago Altium came with (thick) paper manuals which described each step of each process (like making symbols) but that only covered the basics.No, the argument is "Please listen to your users". I'm not even the one offering "do what I want suggestions" beyond "Consistent UI please" and "Please don't push it out the door with big chunks of the help file missing" which is a reasonably low bar to set for any software project.
Hahah. O god you don't know the magnitude of the whining we get with the documentation.
1. OMG IT MUST BE TRANSLATED TO 50 LANGUAGES!
2. OMG IT MUST COMPLY WITH LINUX DISTROS XYZ POLICY
3. OMG IT MUST USE ABC TOOLCHAIN AND GENERATE AN EPUB FILE COMPATIBLE WITH MY 10 YEAR OLD KINDLE
The result is, all the documentation contributors have quit and we have been left with outdated docs.
We just had a 50+ angry mailing list chain kickoff because somehow, people think we are idiots and don't know how HTML works. Also making some claims about things without even having explored the topic (Just use asciidoctor! it does PDFs just fine! yea....except it has an outstanding defect of CJK font support being broken).
We are listening but the moment anything is attmepted there's another group that goes NOT LIKE THAT.
We are trying to redo the entire documentation tooling to actually make contributors not need to have a degree in Linux System Administration to write a sentence.
QuoteThe result is, all the documentation contributors have quit and we have been left with outdated docs.
What's needed to be able to write the docs? Other than a grasp of English :)
ISTM that even a current user might not be an appropriate person unless they have inside knowledge of how things are supposed to work. Documenting what you managed to find out through trial and error would be better than nothing, I guess, but the ideal would be to document what it's supposed to do. How would one go about getting involved in that?
So, summing up the arguments: "You need to do what I want and if you don't you're stupid"!
Did I get that right?
No, the argument is "Please listen to your users". I'm not even the one offering "do what I want suggestions" beyond "Consistent UI please" and "Please don't push it out the door with big chunks of the help file missing" which is a reasonably low bar to set for any software project.
Well, I didn't respond to you in particular, but "whom the shoe fits"...
What I got is "This release was not ready, because X", with X being of such importance it dwarfs every other achievement that makes the release a proper milestone. This is not much different from "Feature X MUST be worked on or you're stupid".
Warning: Long post ahead. There is a “bottom line” towards the bottom....
..../
Holy Moly. Nominal Animal has a new apprentice.
But I do know that I would like to be able to integrate my personal component database into my KiCad design flow. I would be happy to change out my database if that's what it took.
QuoteThe result is, all the documentation contributors have quit and we have been left with outdated docs.
What's needed to be able to write the docs? Other than a grasp of English :)
ISTM that even a current user might not be an appropriate person unless they have inside knowledge of how things are supposed to work. Documenting what you managed to find out through trial and error would be better than nothing, I guess, but the ideal would be to document what it's supposed to do. How would one go about getting involved in that?
1. Learn asciidoc/asciidoctor (it's not that bad, it's a sane alternative to markdown)
2. Know basic git and gitlab to open a merge request
3. Figure out how to get asciidoctor installed, if on Windows you need ruby + the gem
4. Install VSCode + Asciidoc Extension to get live previews
https://gitlab.com/kicad/services/kicad-doc
You may want to check out InvenTree/K-nTree...
QuoteThe result is, all the documentation contributors have quit and we have been left with outdated docs.
What's needed to be able to write the docs? Other than a grasp of English :)
ISTM that even a current user might not be an appropriate person unless they have inside knowledge of how things are supposed to work. Documenting what you managed to find out through trial and error would be better than nothing, I guess, but the ideal would be to document what it's supposed to do. How would one go about getting involved in that?
1. Learn asciidoc/asciidoctor (it's not that bad, it's a sane alternative to markdown)
2. Know basic git and gitlab to open a merge request
3. Figure out how to get asciidoctor installed, if on Windows you need ruby + the gem
4. Install VSCode + Asciidoc Extension to get live previews
https://gitlab.com/kicad/services/kicad-doc
Thanks, but what I meant was more: where does one get the knowledge to put in the documentation?
So, summing up the arguments: "You need to do what I want and if you don't you're stupid"!
Did I get that right?
No, the argument is "Please listen to your users". I'm not even the one offering "do what I want suggestions" beyond "Consistent UI please" and "Please don't push it out the door with big chunks of the help file missing" which is a reasonably low bar to set for any software project.
Well, I didn't respond to you in particular, but "whom the shoe fits"...
What I got is "This release was not ready, because X", with X being of such importance it dwarfs every other achievement that makes the release a proper milestone. This is not much different from "Feature X MUST be worked on or you're stupid".
In the case of basic, functioning documentation, as in help file "this is what control X does", yes, if it's missing then I would wholeheartedly endorse a point of view that it MUST be there. That's the equivalent of the garage telling your car is ready, and when you get there it's only got three wheels on.
You are the one throwing emotive words like 'stupid' around, the most insulting term I've used in relation to the matter in hand is 'amateurish' and that wasn't even in this thread. In fact I don't recall anyone who has said something to the effect of "I'd like to see X" use the kind of insulting language you're putting into their mouths. That borders on, perhaps, is, making ad-hominem arguments and there's no point in continuing to try and discuss this if you're determined to do that rather than offer reasoned counter arguments to the points made.
Chivvying people on to be better is not the same as calling them stupid. You may chose to insult people you wish to persuade if you like, but personally I find it rather counter productive.
Don't bother replying to me personally because I'm hitting "ignore thread" after this, circular arguments in place of constructive discussion are not what I want to spend my time on. It's ironic that earlier in the thread I'm the one urging people who had previously given up on it to give KiCad another go in light of recent improvements, and now I'm giving up in the face of unthinking zealotry. Go figure.
Here's K-nTree: https://github.com/sparkmicro/Ki-nTree/
KiCAD 6.0.1 has been released.
KiCAD 6.0.1 has been released.
Now with full documentation of every feature. ;)
With very little effort I was productive with Kicad.