Kicad - GUI is Horrific!

[golden_labels]

You obviously haven't software developed enough.

So you are trying to dismiss a general observation by providing particular exceptions? Even worse, the primary mention being SAP — a system that entered market nearly half a century ago and most of its current position is from vendor lock-in and massive branding?

[JohnG]

Side note, there will be database library support in 7.0, we are going to generalize as far as a ODBC and REST api interface and let everyone reinvent the wheel a thousand times to make whatever ERP / PLM integration they want.

A thousand thanks! This seems like an sensible approach in many ways.

John

[Kleinstein]

Much of the GUI is a question of what you are used to. For a Windows use the middle mouse botton can be iritating, and for a MAC user even the 2nd mouse botton can.
A slight problem with a projet like Kicad is that the GUI is evolving and the documentation / tuturials are often behind.
Shortcuts via keys are great, but you have know them and get used to them.
When new, other programs can be about as confusing to use and switching between different GUIs can take some time.
With open source SW the GUI is often quite good, once you get used to it, as there is often more input from users or the programs are even written from users. This may lead to a GUI that is less suitable for beginners and a little harder to learn.

[John B]

The PCB layout software has gone a step back in stability compared to version 5. I just spent the last 6 hours laying out a design and the trace router bogs down with more than one bend, also it crashed the program on one occasion. I don't remember that happening in version 5.

Whatever changed in version 6 has been there since the first release version. I'm on 6.0.4 now.

[nigelwright7557]

The PCB layout software has gone a step back in stability compared to version 5. I just spent the last 6 hours laying out a design and the trace router bogs down with more than one bend, also it crashed the program on one occasion. I don't remember that happening in version 5.

Whatever changed in version 6 has been there since the first release version. I'm on 6.0.4 now.

With software it is often 2 steps forward and one step back.
The new version not only has old bugs from previous version but new bugs from new changes.
Testing is the solution. Spend more time testing than it took to write the code.
Test for correct working, then test for incorrect working.

Microsoft have 3 stages to software design, 1 write it, 2 test it, 3 send it out to users to test it for you.

[james_s]

Microsoft laid off all of their testers years ago and relied almost entirely on automation, along with developers are supposed to test their own code 

I think they might have reversed course on this to some degree after how well it worked out when Win10 shipped.

[SiliconWizard]

Yeah, MS *used* to have separate testing teams, and these were completely separate positions from development. With different skill sets. That was like 20 years ago...

While developers testing their own code (without separate testers) is in itself dysfunctional, one thing that can make it already a bit more effective is when developers are forced to use their own software for their daily job.

How many of KiCad's developers are actually using it for designing circuits?

[james_s]

I remember a friend of mine who works there telling me that Satya Nadella stated in a presentation "who better to test the code than the developers that wrote it?" To which my thought was "who WORSE to test the code than the developers that wrote it??" 

[nctnico]

I remember a friend of mine who works there telling me that Satya Nadella stated in a presentation "who better to test the code than the developers that wrote it?"

If that is true (which I strongly doubt), then Satya Nadella is a complete idiot. Everyone knows that the developers of software are the worst candidates to test their code. Even chimpansees straight from the forrest are better for that job.

[SiliconWizard]

If you have ever heard any of his talks, he sounds like an idiot indeed. But apparently he's very good business-wise. So...

As to this statement "who better to test the code than the developers that wrote it?", I do not doubt much he said it. It's a very common gimmick coming from all these agile consultants, I've heard it numerous times.

[james_s]

If that is true (which I strongly doubt), then Satya Nadella is a complete idiot. Everyone knows that the developers of software are the worst candidates to test their code. Even chimpansees straight from the forrest are better for that job.

Why would you doubt it? I worked there myself for quite a few years, I still have numerous friends that work there. These are smart guys and reliable, not the sort who just make stuff up. Certainly it matches up with what the company is doing, they quite literally laid off all of the manual testers, relying heavily on unit testing and automated testing.

[nctnico]

Well, I'm always very carefull with hearsay information that can't be verified from a trusted source. More often than not 'hearsay information' is incomplete, mis-interpreted and/or exaggerated. All in all it would be nice to have some kind of audio / video fragment where Nadella is making that statement and the context in which it is made.

[james_s]

Frankly I don't think it matters precisely what he said, the fact remains that it's exactly what they did, lay off the test teams and ask developers to do unit testing on their own code and rely on automated testing for everything else.

[SiliconWizard]

https://petri.com/microsofts-modernized-development-workflow-begins-show-cracks/

[b_force]

How many of KiCad's developers are actually using it for designing circuits?

How many of them use it on a regular basis on a professional level?
Spitting out at least a couple of highly complicated boards every month, being paid by the hour, having to minimize developing time as much as possible.
As well as some fundamentals and science from good professional GUI's

That's what I have been wondering from the beginning.
Not a single atom in me believes it.
That's just not my own "opinion" but coming from quite some experience with other companies and teams as well.

Except for some hobbyists, I have never met a person in a professional company liking KiCad.

But anyway, not that it matters, because it seems 99% impossible to have a constructive and respectful conversation about it.
It's all just emotions fighting against each other.
I have been hearing for years that it will improve. It will probably fill a little niche, but that's it.

[ebastler]

How many of KiCad's developers are actually using it for designing circuits?

How many of them use it on a regular basis on a professional level?
Spitting out at least a couple of highly complicated boards every month, being paid by the hour, having to minimize developing time as much as possible.

I wonder how many Altium or Eagle/Fusion software developers design PCBs for a living?
Oh, they develop software for a living?
Hmm... 

[MitjaN]

But anyway, not that it matters, because it seems 99% impossible to have a constructive and respectful conversation about it.

I wonder how many Altium or Eagle/Fusion software developers design PCBs for a living?

This kind of snappy responses do not help, and just add weight on b_force's statement that it is really hard to have a conversation regarding this. I'd assume that Altium/Autodesk have (or at least should have) people employed who talk to and look at how EE's work with EDA tools. Furthermore, they certainly listen to requests from their big customers. But this is a viable mostly for big businesses. Small businesses don't really have a say what is got, what is bad and how should it be improved. Well they can say, but I doubt anybody listens

And this might have been or even might still be a KiCad weakness. There is not enough money to pay somebody to watch EE's at work or to listen to the feedback. With KiCad Services Corporation, things are improving. As professional customers can pay for the support and thus have a way to get their requested features in. Furthermore IIRC when CERN got involved, they've put two CERN developers to work on KiCad, and they have also been developing PCB for CERN using Altium, so there was (or even are currently) professional EE's developing KiCad. Furthermore, code is available and you can change it and you can add features to it. For example, I missed the Altium rooms feature, so I've coded a KiCad plugin that implements this feature. You can not really do this with closed source products, unless you are willing to spend ridiculously big bucks to pay to the supplier, to implement this.

So all is not so black and white.

[ebastler]

This kind of snappy responses do not help, and just add weight on b_force's statement that it is really hard to have a conversation regarding this.

I beg to differ.

b_force's message stated an absurd expectation, then went on to say "I have been hearing for years that [Kicad] will improve", totally ignoring the fact that Kicad has improved massively over the years. And after these polemic statements, it closed with the whining comment that one can't have a constructive and respectful conversation.

A snappy response is the most restrained answer I could come up with.

[MitjaN]

I agree his statements are too absolute, and at least to me is seems as he made up his mind. And as wiser man have said "If you’re arguing, you’re losing" so I dont really want to engage him.

But your response is just adding gasoline to the fire. I know it is hard to keep your mouth shut, but the only way we might get some of the people which have already made up their minds to open up a bit is with polite conversation. Even if the conversation from their side is not polite at times.

But we are getting OT

[ebastler]

I agree his statements are too absolute, and at least to me is seems as he made up his mind. And as wiser man have said "If you’re arguing, you’re losing" so I dont really want to engage him.

But your response is just adding gasoline to the fire. I know it is hard to keep your mouth shut, but the only way we might get some of the people which have already made up their minds to open up a bit is with polite conversation. Even if the conversation from their side is not polite at times.

You are clearly a more mature person than me... 

[eugene]

I agree his statements are too absolute, and at least to me is seems as he made up his mind. And as wiser man have said "If you’re arguing, you’re losing" so I dont really want to engage him.

But your response is just adding gasoline to the fire. I know it is hard to keep your mouth shut, but the only way we might get some of the people which have already made up their minds to open up a bit is with polite conversation. Even if the conversation from their side is not polite at times.

But we are getting OT

So what you're saying is that if a child repeatedly and unreasonably insists that peanuts are made from peas, then we should not explain to the child how they are wrong, but instead console them and tell them that we love them.

But I'm not the kid's mother.

[rsjsouza]

I agree his statements are too absolute, and at least to me is seems as he made up his mind. And as wiser man have said "If you’re arguing, you’re losing" so I dont really want to engage him.

But your response is just adding gasoline to the fire. I know it is hard to keep your mouth shut, but the only way we might get some of the people which have already made up their minds to open up a bit is with polite conversation. Even if the conversation from their side is not polite at times.

But we are getting OT

So what you're saying is that if a child repeatedly and unreasonably insists that peanuts are made from peas, then we should not explain to the child how they are wrong, but instead console them and tell them that we love them.

But I'm not the kid's mother.

That is not what MitjaN is saying. Bring back solid arguments in a polite/calm manner and, if all else fails, ignore and do not engage anymore. That works with children of all ages, including the ones well beyond their teenage years.   

[eugene]

[Childish and passive aggressive response deleted.]

I'm frustrated because this thread is five pages and four years of going in circles. The complaints seem largely unchanged even though the thing being complained about has changed. Moreover, those changes have been a direct result of the complaints, yet the complaints keep coming more or less unchanged.

There is no logical argument left unmade. Still, I apologize for not being more patient and will try harder to just stay shut up if there is nothing of value to add.

[rsjsouza]

I'm frustrated because this thread is five pages and four years of going in circles. The complaints seem largely unchanged even though the thing being complained about has changed. Moreover, those changes have been a direct result of the complaints, yet the complaints keep coming more or less unchanged.

I couldn't agree more with you. Being a user of Kicad for years, I can attest to how improved the newer versions are. Being also a user of Altium and Cadence as well, I can tell that each can stand on their own merits.

[eugene]

That's just not my own "opinion" but coming from quite some experience with other companies and teams as well.

Except for some hobbyists, I have never met a person in a professional company liking KiCad.

My own experience in professional companies is that those companies need to select standards in order to keep everything running smoothly and sustainably. (I can't believe I just used the popular buzz word "sustainable", but I think its use is appropriate here.) All sorts of standards need to be established and maintained: BOM formats, drawing formats, title blocks, .. the list is nearly endless. At the bottom of all of that are the software programs chosen to generate all of the files. In other words, once a company decides that all of the schematics and PCBs will be developed using, for example, Altium, then it's law until the company is forced to make a new choice.

Some years ago I started working at a small company where Circuit Maker was used. Just about the time that I started there, Altium bought Circuit Maker and essentially stopped supporting it. So the growing company was forced to choose a new standard. I reported that I had used Orcad years prior, but was more familiar with Altium. I didn't really like either, but Altium seemed like as good an option as any. Since Altium was offering a "low cost" upgrade path from Circuit Maker to Altium, that was the direction taken.

All but one of the existing engineers complained incessantly while unlearning Circuit Maker quirks and learning new Altium quirks. But eventually they able to get work done with it. All admitted that they didn't like Circuit Maker or Altium.

I suppose the lesson here is that I have never met a person in a professional company liking any ECAD tool. They stop complaining once they are familiar any particular tool, But the fact is, professional companies all standardize on a small number of high price tools, so that is all that the engineers are familiar with.

When I became an independent consultant I was in a position to choose my own standards moving forward. I considered buying a yearly license for Altium, but also looked seriously at lower cost options. I didn't need anything free, but I'll be honest that I wasn't interested in spending thousands of USD every year just to keep something that I was used to. I tried KiCad V5 and I found that although the interface was very different from Altium, once I learned how to use it I was able to complete designs just as well and quickly. These are complex designs, with multiple schematic sheets and often six layer PCBs. The complexity ruled out most free and open source programs, but the specifications of KiCad were sufficient, so I gave it a try. I learned to use it and I learned to like it at least as well as Altium.

So now you know one person that works at a professional company that likes KiCad. The company has only one employee (me), but don't you dare suggest that it is not professional! 

For the past couple of years I have worked with an organization where everyone is "1099" as we say in USA. In other words, there are no regular employees; everyone is classified as an independent consultant, even the student interns. There is one other EE that used Eagle for years while working for large companies. When he went independent he purchased an Eagle license of his own.

As you probably know, Eagle has been purchased by Autodesk and the licensing has been switched from perpetual to a yearly subscription. He understandably didn't like the change so was considering different software. I told him I use KiCad. He said that he had heard that it was shitty with a horrific interface. I took him on a quick tour of V5 showing what I like and don't like about it... he installed a copy and gave it a try. The fact that it will import Eagle projects made it easier.

He complained and whined that it doesn't work the way Eagle does, but he also admitted that Eagle is shitty with a horrific interface and that he continued using it only because he already knew how. Now he uses KiCad for all new projects and recently commented that he actually likes V6 better than Eagle even though he's still learning to use it efficiently.

Now you know of two professional EE's that use and like KiCad. You are no longer entitled to say "I have never met a person in a professional company liking KiCad." 

I have been hearing for years that it will improve.

For years it has been improving. If you haven't given it a serious try since V4, then I hope you will at least reconsider it before repeating the same complaints we've been hearing for years.