Author Topic: Kicad - GUI is Horrific!  (Read 59312 times)

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Offline MadScientist

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Re: Kicad - GUI is Horrific!
« Reply #75 on: March 26, 2022, 10:59:02 am »
Quote
Now I will admit I am a complete novice using Kicad. I will also acknowledge I haven't read all the documentation I should have done. But my God the interface of Kicad is F***ing HORRIFIC!!!! Why can't I have multiple schematics in a project - I have one project with a requirement of 4 PCBs. Why can I have multiple sheets without 'hierarchy'. Why can't I import a schematic into an empty Project (because I accidently loaded Eeschema independently). WHY is the F***ing cursor permanently snapping on the screen so annoying...The list goes on!!

This is typical , “ I’m a novice “ , ie I can’t be bothered To actually learn the software , “ why can’t I have xxxx”

Because the designers decided that feature wasn’t added snd others were more important. If you want to open multiple projects , start multiple versions

Try starting with any sort of sophisticated CAD , it all requires a learning curve , it’s not a friggin word processor
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Offline twospoons

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Re: Kicad - GUI is Horrific!
« Reply #76 on: March 27, 2022, 03:05:58 am »
A friend of mine published some free software years ago ( Realterm ). Some twit was complaining bitterly about some aspect of it  - so my friend offered him his money back  :-DD

Kicad is FREE. Why are any of you complaining? If you don't like it go use something else. Altium costs thousands per seat, and believe me its far from perfect.

I personally don't have any issues with Kicad's UI - sure its different, but that does not make it bad.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Kicad - GUI is Horrific!
« Reply #77 on: March 27, 2022, 10:04:43 am »
A friend of mine published some free software years ago ( Realterm ). Some twit was complaining bitterly about some aspect of it  - so my friend offered him his money back  :-DD
Then again, a lot of such tools written by engineers typically have a very convoluted user interface that is only logical to the creator of it (Realterm is no exception...).  8) I can imagine people offering constructive criticism but I get that creators are not open for that; after all the tool works for them.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2022, 10:25:58 am by nctnico »
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Offline eugene

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Re: Kicad - GUI is Horrific!
« Reply #78 on: March 27, 2022, 12:33:26 pm »
I just want to point out to anyone that didn't notice: this thread was started in 2018. Since then many of the changes made to KiCad have been to address exactly the complaints seen in here. So please, let's not perpetuate the myth that the developers are unresponsive. It's possible that not everything that any one person wants is there, but the fact is there are a lot of people generating professional level designs with KiCad and not complaining about it. That includes me.
90% of quoted statistics are fictional
 
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Online golden_labels

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Re: Kicad - GUI is Horrific!
« Reply #79 on: March 27, 2022, 04:52:36 pm »
Writing from a soft-dev perspective here.

Software built by the users suits authors’ needs and is built by adding new features as required. It is not written with other people in mind, at least initially. If you write your own program, learning a single new input action is zero effort. You go through it dozens of time while implementing the feature anyway. They are usually coming from branches unrelated to programming or are early on that path, so they lack relevant knowledge and may make unexpected choices. That leads to applications that, when first used by a newcomer, seem to be filled with unintuitive controls. As soon as the obstacle of learning them is overcome, they are not worse than any other.

Situation is different if the application is built with the intention of being sold or at least delivered internally to a vast group of workers. That type of software since beginning is developed to appeal to possibly wide audience. Any obstacle in adoption is putting the company in a serious disadvantage compared to the competition.(1) So care is taken from the very beginning to make UI familiar. Since the program is written by professional developers, who know their trade,(2) they have knowledge, experience and studies to do that. They are usually also not the pioneers in the field, but build upon existing solutions, which they copy and improve.


(1) That’s also the reason why interfaces are getting simpler and simpler, with features removed. In both software and hardware. Give people too much and they are lost. Let them tweak too much and they will break something, and then whine publicly it’s your company’s fault. In either case competition gains and you lose.
(2) Right, since 2010s that becomes rarer. But it’s also easier for a newbie to write a decent UI with close to no knowledge.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2022, 04:54:44 pm by golden_labels »
People imagine AI as T1000. What we got so far is glorified T9.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Kicad - GUI is Horrific!
« Reply #80 on: March 27, 2022, 06:03:33 pm »
Kicad is FREE. Why are any of you complaining? If you don't like it go use something else.

I really hate this attitude, it is unfortunately pervasive in many open source communities and it does a lot of damage to the open source movement. Just because software is free doesn't mean it has to be garbage, and it doesn't mean people aren't allowed to criticize it. A sensible author will listen to criticism and at least take it into consideration. Yes the software is free, but so is all the QA they are getting from the people that are criticizing it. A lot of free software is very good, very polished, and continues to improve, free is not an excuse for being crap.
 
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Online golden_labels

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Re: Kicad - GUI is Horrific!
« Reply #81 on: March 27, 2022, 10:06:02 pm »
I would say it’s more complicated. We are adults and a I expect a mature person to never refuse discussion, if only it makes sense to have it. But there is a whole range to consider: from demanding to politely suggesting. It’s important to understand that: because as much as “because it’s free” is harmful to the community, so is authors’ burn-out due to people constantly demanding attention.

If software is created as a part of business, I do not care if the product is offered for me “free” or not. Being part of the business it’s never really free and I see no reason to behave any different than as if I paid for it directly. Make your demands and complain loudly if they do not listen “because it’s ‘free’”. Open source or not, free or not, doesn’t matter as long as it’s a part of their business.

On the other end of the scale are authors, who share their creations simply because they find they may be useful to someone. Instead of hiding software for their own use, they simply put it out for everyone to have. In a manner best described by: hey, look what I made — maybe you will find that useful, so take it if you want. Those authors are not planning to put any effort to maintaining it beyond what they need themselves, but also do not expect any help from others. They are usually not paid for that and already donate their time. In this case demanding support is a really bad approach. Politely asking, if something may be added or improved: sure. As I said, we are adults. But you should not entitled to be listened to. Aside from that, open source community has a strong DIY ethos, which is one of the core reasons why the entire movement has began. The source is given, so you could tinker with it. Feedback is very often expected to include some effort from you.

Most of software lies somewhere between those two extremes and the approach should be adjusted accordingly. If one promotes their project, even if it’s free, they are accepting some level of responsibility for maintaining it. If they receive help from community, the community is entitled to be listened to. If the project becomes popular, even without one’s intention for that, they should at least try recognizing it’s no longer only their private issue. That’s my primary gripe with one popular widgets toolkit and a desktop environment based on it. The project became so popular, that the constant “you are free to fork it, if you don’t like what we do” is a slap to the face of the entire community.

Obligatory xkcd :)
People imagine AI as T1000. What we got so far is glorified T9.
 
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Offline nigelwright7557

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Re: Kicad - GUI is Horrific!
« Reply #82 on: March 28, 2022, 01:19:04 am »
I wouldn't call drawing parts a "skill". Srsly, a square with pads is not hard to draw.  Drawing pads for non-standard packages is far more tedious (and error-prone).


Making your own parts does require skill.
Its not just drawing a square but getting all the squares the right size and right distance apart in x and y directions.

I once designed a SMD part and made all pads a set distance apart. The pcb came back wrong.
The distance between the pads in the CAD software was imperial and I was converting metric to imperial and it wasnt exact.
So over the 20 the pads the inexactness mounted up until last pad was half a pad out !

 

Offline nigelwright7557

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Re: Kicad - GUI is Horrific!
« Reply #83 on: March 28, 2022, 01:24:16 am »

If software is created as a part of business, I do not care if the product is offered for me “free” or not. Being part of the business it’s never really free and I see no reason to behave any different than as if I paid for it directly. Make your demands and complain loudly if they do not listen “because it’s ‘free’”. Open source or not, free or not, doesn’t matter as long as it’s a part of their business.


There are 3 modes for software, paid for directly by user, completely free and funded free software.
Kicad is funded around $20k a year.
There is paid for software that isnt funded that much.


 

Offline eugene

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Re: Kicad - GUI is Horrific!
« Reply #84 on: March 28, 2022, 02:19:50 am »
There are 3 modes for software, paid for directly by user, completely free and funded free software.

Seems like a simplistic view, but I suppose that's the point.

Quote
Kicad is funded around $20k a year.

Which is enough to pay a single programmer for about 1/2 day each week. To what does that entitle the typical KiCad user?
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Offline Monkeh

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Re: Kicad - GUI is Horrific!
« Reply #85 on: March 28, 2022, 03:41:15 am »
Quote
Kicad is funded around $20k a year.

Which is enough to pay a single programmer for about 1/2 day each week. To what does that entitle the typical KiCad user?

He's just sore because he couldn't earn that with his significantly less capable software.
 

Offline twospoons

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Re: Kicad - GUI is Horrific!
« Reply #86 on: March 28, 2022, 03:46:31 am »
Kicad is FREE. Why are any of you complaining? If you don't like it go use something else.

I really hate this attitude, it is unfortunately pervasive in many open source communities and it does a lot of damage to the open source movement. Just because software is free doesn't mean it has to be garbage, and it doesn't mean people aren't allowed to criticize it. A sensible author will listen to criticism and at least take it into consideration. Yes the software is free, but so is all the QA they are getting from the people that are criticizing it. A lot of free software is very good, very polished, and continues to improve, free is not an excuse for being crap.

There's a world of difference between providing constructive feedback to the developers, and whining about something on an unassociated forum.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Kicad - GUI is Horrific!
« Reply #87 on: March 28, 2022, 03:58:07 am »
There's a world of difference between providing constructive feedback to the developers, and whining about something on an unassociated forum.

People are allowed to whine, get over it. If you don't like it, don't read it.
 
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Online golden_labels

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Re: Kicad - GUI is Horrific!
« Reply #88 on: March 28, 2022, 04:57:15 am »
People are allowed to whine, get over it. If you don't like it, don't read it.
People are allowed to whine about whining, get over it. If you don’t like it, don’t read.  :popcorn:
People imagine AI as T1000. What we got so far is glorified T9.
 
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Offline jma

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Re: Kicad - GUI is Horrific!
« Reply #89 on: March 28, 2022, 06:59:03 am »
Hi,

I'm a novice too, and i Reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally  like Kicad, free, furthermore, members or forum available for questions.

I you have plenty of money, buy a profesional CAD, and don't critize open source software!!!!!!!!

Been used from earlier versions, of course changes occured, but  " you want , you can " ........

Nice day. :popcorn:


jm


 

Offline Bassman59

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Re: Kicad - GUI is Horrific!
« Reply #90 on: March 28, 2022, 03:18:42 pm »
Writing from a soft-dev perspective here.


.... again, as eugene notes, this thread was started in 2018 and many (most?) of the complaints in it have been addressed by the Kicad developers. They really are responsive to user requests.

There are some outstanding requests -- notably in the library system -- that remain.

It seems to me that everyone who has made a suggestion about a database driven library has a specific way they want it implemented and they're all different. And nobody with such an opinion has stepped up to the plate and actually written an implementation proposal.

In the meantime, the developers have concentrated on the nuts-and-bolts usability of the application, and honestly, it's quite excellent.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Kicad - GUI is Horrific!
« Reply #91 on: March 28, 2022, 03:24:50 pm »
It seems to me that everyone who has made a suggestion about a database driven library has a specific way they want it implemented and they're all different. And nobody with such an opinion has stepped up to the plate and actually written an implementation proposal.
In the end the will to make a change has to come from the inside; some of the Kicad developers have created an implementation proposal for a database driven component system and it is being developed. AFAIK to be included in release 7. Nobody had a different opinion about that BTW; most CAD packages that have it, implement it in the exact same way.

Quote
In the meantime, the developers have concentrated on the nuts-and-bolts usability of the application, and honestly, it's quite excellent.
You can always wish for all improvements / new features to be part of the next release but the reality is: One step at a time.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2022, 03:32:01 pm by nctnico »
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Online golden_labels

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Re: Kicad - GUI is Horrific!
« Reply #92 on: March 28, 2022, 05:42:17 pm »
... again, as eugene notes, this thread was started in 2018 and many (most?) of the complaints in it have been addressed by the Kicad developers. They really are responsive to user requests.
The message, to which I was responding, was written yesterday, not in 2018.
People imagine AI as T1000. What we got so far is glorified T9.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Kicad - GUI is Horrific!
« Reply #93 on: March 28, 2022, 06:54:02 pm »
Kicad is FREE. Why are any of you complaining? If you don't like it go use something else.

I really hate this attitude, it is unfortunately pervasive in many open source communities and it does a lot of damage to the open source movement.

Yes, well. Some people hate this attitude, some other people hate those who whine while not being entitled to anything much.
Either way, hating is the easy part.

Thing is, open-sourcing some software in itself doesn't make developers owe anything to their users. They're already cool enough to share their projects and give them essentially free time.
And your attitude is bound to change completely depending on which side you're on. As a user, you feel your suggestions, rants and whining are all reasonable, useful and should be listened to. The same people getting on the other side of the fence suddenly realize there's a bunch of people "watching you work" while explaining to you how you should do it.

Now sure things get a bit different when said software gets *promoted* in some way - which is always the case when the project gets backed up by some large organization. For KiCad, that was the CERN. As a project gets "pushed" as an alternative to commercial solutions, users' expectations grow. That's natural. And if you actively promote your project, you become responsible for that. It's no more some kind of personal project that you have happened to share, and don't care if other people use it or not.

As to KiCad more specifically - the UI is not that bad for the layout editor. But the layout editor is what has seen the most overhaul so far. It's on par with many other commercial ones. All CAD software pretty much have quirks anyway. The schematic editor - and project management - is something else. It's more questionable indeed, and most of it comes from legacy. Same for library management. I don't think it's like developers don't want to make things better - it's more that it's a big endeavor, and since many users have become used to that, any changes may trigger as much, if not more whining than the current situation.

And as to funding, I honestly thought it got more than this. Around $20k-$30k a year is very little. Must be one of the most ridiculous amount I've seen for such a (now) widely-used project.
At some point, I think there were a few developers working (and getting paid) full-time on it. From what I've read, the lead developer for instance had been hired full time but he got laid off? Not sure what is the current situation. If someone has more details...

Given that KiCad has now a solid user base, but quite a few with divergent views on how it should evolve, I'm surprised there hasn't been a working fork yet. Or maybe there is, and I'm not aware of it?
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Kicad - GUI is Horrific!
« Reply #94 on: March 28, 2022, 07:43:26 pm »
Thing is, open-sourcing some software in itself doesn't make developers owe anything to their users. They're already cool enough to share their projects and give them essentially free time.
And your attitude is bound to change completely depending on which side you're on. As a user, you feel your suggestions, rants and whining are all reasonable, useful and should be listened to. The same people getting on the other side of the fence suddenly realize there's a bunch of people "watching you work" while explaining to you how you should do it.

I have released a handful of open source projects, while I can't cater to the whim of every user that comes to me with requests or complaints one thing that I have never done is been an ass to them and told them "if you don't like it then use something else!" That is just pointless, I want people to use my projects, I want people to contribute to them, I want people to fork them, I'm more than happy to offer suggestions and I do what I can to make my projects as good as possible. It's not the lack of action that I don't like, it's the attitude. It doesn't cost anything to not be a dick. If somebody doesn't like the approach I will politely suggest that they fork it and give them what information I can.
 
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Offline Wilksey

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Re: Kicad - GUI is Horrific!
« Reply #95 on: March 28, 2022, 10:10:03 pm »
At least you don't have to endure Altium and constant crashing.
I think AD17 was the last "stable" release.

For the price, KiCAD is orders of magnitude better than many other free or "low cost" design tools - and this statement holds true for anyone else who has the same opinion.

Yeah at the end of the day it is your own personal choice, i'm glad most OSHW projects have moved to KiCAD and away from Autodesk's abomination (the Eagle has flown the nest), I suggest that anyone downloads free versions or trial versions of a few packages and tries them and make their own decisions, KiCAD although very capable when you learn how to use it correctly isn't everyone's cup of tea.

It is OK not to like it, it is OK to like it, as for updates / features, I guess if you want to make a difference become a developer and chip in, as most dev's will be working on features that they want over ones that you want.
 

Offline IanJ

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Re: Kicad - GUI is Horrific!
« Reply #96 on: March 29, 2022, 02:06:54 pm »
I looked at KiCad V5 when I was using Altium CircuitStudio. Decided to stay with Altium, the GUI in KiCad and some of the features didn't suit me.

When V6 came out I had another look.......and got hooked. I'd recommend anyone else giving it a serious look, especially as the importers are quite mature now IMHO.

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Offline nigelwright7557

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Re: Kicad - GUI is Horrific!
« Reply #97 on: March 29, 2022, 06:42:38 pm »
He's just sore because he couldn't earn that with his significantly less capable software.

Not sore at all, just glad to be out of something that made very little due to massive competition.

I now design, build and sell valuable hardware/software systems where people dont give them away.
A winner all round.

 

Offline delfinom

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Re: Kicad - GUI is Horrific!
« Reply #98 on: March 30, 2022, 12:52:07 am »

It seems to me that everyone who has made a suggestion about a database driven library has a specific way they want it implemented and they're all different. And nobody with such an opinion has stepped up to the plate and actually written an implementation proposal.

Side note, there will be database library support in 7.0, we are going to generalize as far as a ODBC and REST api interface and let everyone reinvent the wheel a thousand times to make whatever ERP / PLM integration they want.

Quote
Writing from a soft-dev perspective here.

Software built by the users suits authors’ needs and is built by adding new features as required. It is not written with other people in mind, at least initially. If you write your own program, learning a single new input action is zero effort. You go through it dozens of time while implementing the feature anyway. They are usually coming from branches unrelated to programming or are early on that path, so they lack relevant knowledge and may make unexpected choices. That leads to applications that, when first used by a newcomer, seem to be filled with unintuitive controls. As soon as the obstacle of learning them is overcome, they are not worse than any other.

Situation is different if the application is built with the intention of being sold or at least delivered internally to a vast group of workers. That type of software since beginning is developed to appeal to possibly wide audience. Any obstacle in adoption is putting the company in a serious disadvantage compared to the competition.(1) So care is taken from the very beginning to make UI familiar. Since the program is written by professional developers, who know their trade,(2) they have knowledge, experience and studies to do that. They are usually also not the pioneers in the field, but build upon existing solutions, which they copy and improve.

You obviously haven't software developed enough.

You know why there are multiple competing ERP solutions in the world? Because everyone wants the dumb ERP tailored to their business needs a thousand times differently. Then you have the cancerous nuclear waste called SAP where they decided to make everything so configurable for every business, you need to hire a team of consultants to train another team of consultants you hire, just to teach your guys in house how to configure the ERP to your needs.

The business world is just as much as a dumpster fire.

And don't get me started with CAD. Mentor PADS is a world's different user interface/experience than say Altium which are both different than OrCad Capture.

It's impossible to tailor to everyone.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2022, 12:53:48 am by delfinom »
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Kicad - GUI is Horrific!
« Reply #99 on: March 30, 2022, 12:53:46 am »
Agreed with above.
 


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