Kicad - GUI is Horrific!

[propellerhead]

In the 50 or so designs I've done with KiCad (some simple, some not) I have have not seen this "netlist ignorance problem".  I create the schematic, then do the layout.  The layout rats next shows the netlist connections, and there's never been any confusion there.  I run the layout DRC tool and it tells me if the layout matches the schematic.  I don't change the layout connections and then back-annotate the schematic (which might be a useful thing for me to try), I always work from the schematic.  So where do you see the netlist ignorance problem?

This conversation has been going on for a couple of days.  Your question suggests that you
haven't been following it.  I have a lot of patience, but I do tire of people who come in late
and expect everything be repeated and spoon-fed to them.  You just have to go back as far
as the first post of 2023 in this thread and start reading, and all will be revealed.

[propellerhead]

"Wall of Rants" - I like it, except for the Phil Spector comparison it suggests/invites;
he was always a psychopath who made near-totally-shit music.

Is this an example of the "objective reality" we should all be striving for?

I've been a radio DJ since my the first week of my undergrad, more than 40 years ago.  Most of
my attention has been spent outside of the music mainstream, and my interviews have included
some of the most famous composers alive today (and giants who are no longer with us).  Upstairs
from my lab I'm surrounded by a collection of 6000 records and CDs and have an equally imposing
library on the subject.  In February I flew to Paris to see a band that has been foundational in
progressive music since 1970.  I take music as seriously as a sucking chest wound, and yeah, I'll
stand by what I said:  A psychopath and a hack.

[fourfathom]

I take music as seriously as a sucking chest wound, and yeah, I'll
stand by what I said:  A psychopath and a hack.

And you know absolutely nothing about my background in music.  So you have an opinion -- congratulations!

As for the rest, never mind.  I'm also out of patience.

[propellerhead]

See you - it's been a pleasure not meeting you!

[themadhippy]

a band that has been foundational in progressive music since 1970

whos that then?

[wilfred]

I'm guessing you are referring to realtime ERC.

Nope.  My recommendation would be to go back and actually read what I wrote rather than guessing.

Do you mean this?

"Oh, I wish you hadn't gone there.  I read that pop junk as a teenager shortly after it came out, rejected it as
the edge-of-new-age woo-woo that it is, and opted for a life of engineering instead that wasn't informed by
Jonathan Livingston Seagull or Carlos Castaneda or whatever other silliness occupied the bestseller charts at
the time.  I talk about stuff like that over Sunday coffee with old university pals who took the arts+philosophy
route, and as I did at the time and have in the decades since, continue to gently mock them for ever having
taken it seriously, and over time most of them have gradually swung over to my side and acknowledged that
it really was a complete waste of time.

But that stuff was harmless, and the world's become in many ways too serious to tolerate that kind of mushy
thinking - that's essentially why the US political scene is the giant smoking trash fire that it is.  As a society
they allowed themselves to be steered, by sinister forces, into believing that objective truth does not exist
and that "alternative facts" is a valid notion.  Take that step, and the next thing you know half of your electorate
believes in goddamn Qanon.

So, contrary to your claim, I'm out on the ramparts fighting for objective truth, which includes "This is superior
to that, and if you think otherwise and lack evidence, experience, and a sound and compelling argument, it is
not a mere 'matter of opinion'.  You are a cult victim."

Ultimately the choice is yours.  As we say, "Your gun, your foot.""

or this,

"And you know absolutely nothing about my background in music.  So you have an opinion -- congratulations!

As for the rest, never mind.  I'm also out of patience."

In a thread about the Kicad GUI I didn't want to read it the first time.

[propellerhead]

a band that has been foundational in progressive music since 1970

whos that then?

Magma

[ebastler]

Look, I don't get into these bunfights because I have some weird personality defect that craves conflict,
a perverse need to lord superior knowledge over others, etc. 

Ah, thank you for clarifying that. I might have jumped to wrong conclusions otherwise, but now you have put my mind at rest.

Seriously though: Since you are so fond of instructing others to re-read the thread to understand the full depth of your wisdom -- would you mind doing the same, and re-considering your above claim?

Well, I guess on some level you already know, since you must have received similar feedback regularly over the decades. You do feel the need to lord your "superior" views over others, be it on EDA systems, music, or whatever you will bring up next.

Edit: Digression removed.

[propellerhead]

Seriously though: Since you are so fond of instructing others to re-read the thread...

"Fond of"?  No, it's an utter bore.  But it's more efficient than than repeating myself at length for
those who jump in late, can't be bothered to read enough of the prior conversation to grasp the
subject at hand, and ask that it be restated for them.  It's enough working explaining it to those
who have read it and just don't yet get it without adding the extra layer of tedium.

What makes this difficult experience worthwhile are those clueful, experienced few who not only
get it, but agree and don't feel compelled to defend the suboptimal behaviour of someone else's
code - or get distracted by the style in which the argument is presented.  They're the ones who
help get the message out.

[Monkeh]

What makes this difficult experience worthwhile are those clueful, experienced few who not only
get it, but agree

The ego is impressive, at least.

[propellerhead]

The ego is impressive, at least.

I get by.  But you need to ask why you're fixated on the messenger rather than the message.

[Monkeh]

The ego is impressive, at least.

I get by.  But you need to ask why you're fixated on the messenger rather than the message.

No, I don't. The message is received, it's not the message you believe you're sending. You need to ask why you can't understand how the two are linked.

I'll give you a hint: You'll get far further in your endeavours if you're able to describe issues without insulting people and their work. Further still if you take the time to consider that your opinion is just that, an opinion, and that varying experiences and goals will lead to differing opinions. Converging these requires something called tact.

I'm sure you'll have some argument along the lines of 'engineers are supposed to be above these things' - but that's merely denial of reality.

[propellerhead]

Evidently you have no appreciation for how tedious these little lectures on improving one's
character are, particularly when they come from the colonists.

As fascinating as you find me to be, the conversation here is actually about CAD software.

To the matter of "opinions":  There is a professional category of "PCB Designers".  Not EEs
like me and many others who happen to do their own boards too; specialists who do not
design the electronics, but whose job it is to get others' designs 100% correct on boards.
Those are the people usually found in the $250K/license seats.  I know a bunch of those
guys, they were my teachers, and I have tremendous respect for them and would never
presume to be at their level.  So when we're out for a beer and I tell them about this up-
and-coming open-source package that, despite being considered by many to be ready
for prime-time, exhibits awful behaviour because the authors have an inexplicable blind
spot - and they agree that doing it that way is utterly barmy - it's no longer simply a
matter of my opinion.  It is now a fact agreed to by the experts, offered here to explain
that you could be using better tools than you are, and in hope that somehow, someday,
the necessary behaviour makes its way into the code.

That's all.  About the rest, I. Simply. Couldn't. Give. A. Toss.

[JohanH]

I really don't care. But I must say it doesn't sound like you understand why and how an open source program, like KiCAD in this case, exists. And it really does sound like you don't care, either. So we are all good. But IF you had cared, you could have done it in another way and not this ridiculous thread.

[Monkeh]

Evidently you have no appreciation for how tedious these little lectures on improving one's
character are, particularly when they come from the colonists.

Evidently you have no appreciation for how tedious and insulting your rants are. Bringing my country into it is just another fallacious argument.

As fascinating as you find me to be, the conversation here is actually about CAD software.

There's that ego again. It's not helping you.

About the rest, I. Simply. Couldn't. Give. A. Toss.

Including about making an effective argument, apparently. Makes it look more like you're interested in argument than improving a piece of software you don't use and never will considering your attitude, further reinforcing the appearance that all you want is an argument which makes you feel superior.

[johansen]

I haven't used kicad since 2011 and i dont remember editing a part causing thr netlist to break.

So im curious did you change the pin numbers on the part or did you simply move them?

[propellerhead]

Makes it look more like you're interested in argument than improving a piece of software you don't use and never will...

Except that your claim is contrary to my explicit statement that I look forward to KiCAD crossing
this bridge so I can give it another try and see if it's ready to be taken seriously, because I think
it could be useful.  So it would seem this is just another skimmer inferring my intentions to fit his
own mental model rather than actually reading what I wrote.

[Monkeh]

Makes it look more like you're interested in argument than improving a piece of software you don't use and never will...

Except that your claim is contrary to my explicit statement that I look forward to KiCAD crossing
this bridge so I can give it another try and see if it's ready to be taken seriously, because I think
it could be useful.  So it would seem this is just another skimmer inferring my intentions to fit his
own mental model rather than actually reading what I wrote.

And you will inevitably find yet another deviation from your comfort zone and decide the software is still unusable.

If you wish the software to improve, make an effective argument instead of insulting people. Make an effort to adapt to it, rather than believing it should adapt to you.

[propellerhead]

I haven't used kicad since 2011 and i dont remember editing a part causing thr netlist to break.

So im curious did you change the pin numbers on the part or did you simply move them?

You're coming in late and missing the point.  The result of my editing a symbol was the revelation
that schematic capture has no netlist.  The lack of a netlist in schematic capture is the point.
KiCAD only generates it later, as a postprocessing step from the completed schematic.

[propellerhead]

And you will inevitably find yet another deviation from your comfort zone and decide the software is still unusable.

Personally, I don't like making predictions, especially about the future.

[Monkeh]

And you will inevitably find yet another deviation from your comfort zone and decide the software is still unusable.

Personally, I don't like making predictions, especially about the future.

And yet they're so useful, and mine just came true again.

I'll make another: You'll continue to ignore the human element and argue ineffectually, thus making slow or no progress towards your stated (but not necessarily true) goal. You have fun with that.

[propellerhead]

I'll make another: You'll continue to ignore the human element and argue ineffectually, thus making slow or no progress towards your stated (but not necessarily true) goal. You have fun with that.

Oh, for god's sake, let it go.  If all you can do is stay OT and obsess over my abundant and
evident character defects, the least you can do is just stop typing, because I don't think
anyone here wants - or needs - to hear it.

I'm still here to discuss a basic problem with KiCAD's schematic capture that'll bring a huge
improvement in its usability, if taken seriously.  I will not entertain further discursion from
you on my style of presentation, so save the keystrokes, colonist.

[ebastler]

I'm still here to discuss a basic problem with KiCAD's schematic capture that'll bring a huge
improvement in its usability, if taken seriously.  I will not entertain further discursion from
you on my style of presentation, so save the keystrokes, colonist.

How do you expect to have a "discussion" if, as soon as any criticism of your opinion is voiced, you get condescending and arrogant and try to attack people on a personal level?

You seem to be intelligent, you apparently have a lot of relevant experience -- I am sure you have worthwhile ideas and proposals. But I am baffled that you can't see how massively you stand in your own way. Well, either that, or you just enjoy trolling us.

[PlainName]

I'm still here to discuss a basic problem with KiCAD's schematic capture that'll bring a huge
improvement in its usability, if taken seriously.

Why?

Seriously, you've stated what you think is wrong with the schematic (although I struggle to see how that results in the 'GUI' title). What will ranting about it achieve now? No-one here is going to dash off to make code changes, take a developer aside and 'strongly suggest' to them anything, or even stop using the thing.

[propellerhead]

Seriously, you've stated what you think is wrong with the schematic (although I struggle to see how that results in the 'GUI' title).

Well, sorry about that part - I ran across the dormant thread inadvertently and kind of hijacked
it to discuss this issue.  It's not that it isn't a GUI problem, but it's a deeper one that's reflected
in the schematic GUI.