Kicad - GUI is Horrific!

[nctnico]

As other have noted: Altium's schematics capture isn't better in any way compared to Kicad. For starters: try to get rid of Altium's default Times font they use for pins and labels. Times is by far the worst font for that purpose if you want to print readable schematics and Altium makes it nearly impossible to change it 

[propellerhead]

I'm in no rush.  It's something I might get around to... or not.

[TimFox]

Before I retired, I did my schematic capture (after working hours) on Orcad.
When I lost access to that, I downloaded Kicad for my schematic capture (I don't do PCB layout).
My first point on the learning curve was the difference between "Move" and "Drag", and the appropriate keystrokes, which differed from Orcad.
Having learned that, I proceeded to use it.

[tooki]

As other have noted: Altium's schematics capture isn't better in any way compared to Kicad. For starters: try to get rid of Altium's default Times font they use for pins and labels. Times is by far the worst font for that purpose if you want to print readable schematics and Altium makes it nearly impossible to change it 

While it is a bit of a pain to eliminate Times New Roman (mostly in that there are a LOT of defaults you need to change once, and then setting the document font once), once you’ve done it, it’s more or less gone.

As for the schematic capture: I quite disagree more. I find Altium’s schematic capture to be appreciably better. Heck, until just now with version 7, it couldn’t even do basic dragging without turning all the attached connections to shit (rubberbanding instead of orthogonal). That’s why KiCad schematics so often rely ruthlessly on ports, rather than connections.

[SiliconWizard]

As other have noted: Altium's schematics capture isn't better in any way compared to Kicad. For starters: try to get rid of Altium's default Times font they use for pins and labels. Times is by far the worst font for that purpose if you want to print readable schematics and Altium makes it nearly impossible to change it 

While it is a bit of a pain to eliminate Times New Roman (mostly in that there are a LOT of defaults you need to change once, and then setting the document font once), once you’ve done it, it’s more or less gone.

Yeah, anyway, while I do prefer a sans serif font for schematics, even Times looks cleaner and more readable than the default KiCad font. IMHO. I know many people would disagree.
KiCad's font looks particularly horrific (in the sense of unreadable) at low zoom levels, and that's an objective fact though.

But KiCad v7 allows using any font, although it currently adds significant lag (a known issue as of now) and the rendering is so-so.
It's really down to the on-screen rendering rather than the font itself - even the standard KiCad one looks much better printed than on screen.

Other than that, Altium's schematic capture is better IMO. KiCad's one has become usable, certainly, and I do like the hierarchical sheets which allow a lot more than just multi-sheet schematics.
But dragging stuff still is rather meh.

[Uky]

BTW...

Those who (like me sometimes) have difficulties distinguishing an O for an 0 could try using "Andale Dot" font.
In that font, the number 0, zero is represented with a dot in the center of the oval...

 

[coppice]

BTW...

Those who (like me sometimes) have difficulties distinguishing an O for an 0 could try using "Andale Dot" font.
In that font, the number 0, zero is represented with a dot in the center of the oval...

 

These things don't bother me. I have zero tolerance.

[shapirus]

new kicad user here.

tried to place a resistor, a cell, a switch and connect them with wires. then tried to figure out how to run simulation. 15 wasted minutes later: apt-get purge 'kicad*', back to (pirated) proteus under wine. works like a charm!

this thing was most definitely created by a brain-damaged person, and, unlike the case of vim and TeX, there is no positive connotation in that.

[james_s]

new kicad user here.

tried to place a resistor, a cell, a switch and connect them with wires. then tried to figure out how to run simulation. 15 wasted minutes later: apt-get purge 'kicad*', back to (pirated) proteus under wine. works like a charm!

this thing was most definitely created by a brain-damaged person, and, unlike the case of vim and TeX, there is no positive connotation in that.

You spent only 15 minutes trying to learn to use a complex piece of software and then decided there's a problem with the software and dumped it? That says a lot more about you than it does about the software. Try to learn to use Solidworks or Photoshop or Blender or any other similarly complex software in such a short time and you'd have the same problem. For those of us that even occasionally use the software for paid jobs pirated tools are not an option.

[woody]

new kicad user here.

tried to place a resistor, a cell, a switch and connect them with wires. then tried to figure out how to run simulation. 15 wasted minutes later: apt-get purge 'kicad*', back to (pirated) proteus under wine. works like a charm!

this thing was most definitely created by a brain-damaged person, and, unlike the case of vim and TeX, there is no positive connotation in that.

I asked ChatGPT: Place a resistor, a cell, a switch and connect them with wires in kicad and then simulate the schematic

Here is what it said:

As an AI language model, I do not have the ability to perform physical actions such as placing components in Kicad. However, I can provide you with a step-by-step guide on how to create a circuit with a resistor, a cell, a switch, and wires in Kicad and simulate the schematic using a SPICE simulator.

    Open Kicad and create a new project.
    In the schematic editor, select the "Place a Component" tool from the toolbar or press the "A" key.
    From the component library, search for "Resistor" and select the resistor symbol you want to use. Place the resistor symbol on the schematic editor by clicking on the desired location.
    Repeat step 3 for the "Cell" and "Switch" components.
    Next, select the "Place a Graphic Line or Wire" tool from the toolbar or press the "W" key.
    Draw a wire from the positive terminal of the cell to one end of the resistor.
    Draw a wire from the other end of the resistor to one of the terminals of the switch.
    Draw another wire from the other terminal of the switch back to the negative terminal of the cell.
    Save your schematic.
    Click on the "Generate Netlist" button in the toolbar to generate a netlist for the circuit.
    Open a SPICE simulator, such as LTSpice or Ngspice, and create a new schematic.
    In the SPICE simulator, select "File" and then "Import Netlist". Navigate to the location where you saved the netlist from Kicad and select it.
    Verify that the imported netlist matches the circuit you created in Kicad.
    Add the appropriate SPICE models for the components used in your circuit. If you're unsure which models to use, you can often find them online by searching for the component name and "SPICE model".
    Set up your simulation parameters, such as the simulation time and step size.
    Run the simulation and view the results.

Note: In order to simulate a circuit, you need to have a good understanding of how the components work and how they are connected. If you're new to circuit design, it may be helpful to consult resources such as textbooks or online tutorials to gain a better understanding of circuit theory and SPICE simulation.

[shapirus]

You spent only 15 minutes trying to learn to use a complex piece of software and then decided there's a problem with the software and dumped it?

yes, that's precisely what happened.

complex software does not have to be horribly difficult to get started with. besides, there is nothing complex in drawing a very basic circuit.

for comparison, i needed literally 5 minutes to get started with proteus: its UI follows the industry standard principles of user interaction and has no apparent goal of preventing the user from using it intuitively, which makes it easy to get started with, but, at the same time, not less powerful when it comes to more complex tasks.
obviously, considerable effort of a team of professionals in the respective area was put into getting it right.

in addition, proteus can run interactive simulation, which is a killer feature, at least, for a hobbyist like me who is still learning. but that's beyond the scope of its comparison with kicad, because the latter never claimed it could do it.
with proteus, I build a circuit, add voltage/current probes, add virtual voltmeters or ammeters or an oscilloscope, hit the obvious green triangle "play" button, and it starts and works right away, unless there is a flaw or a transitional condition in the circuit that it cannot simulate.
why doesn't kicad have this very obviously necessary feature? I don't know.

kicad obviously works for some (or rather many) people. good for them. but I find it to be a failure, or at least failing at making simple things simple, which any properly designed software must do.

on the other hand, kicad is free, proteus isn't, so again it's not a fair comparison. however, there are tools (however less powerful) which are free to use and still don't fail at UI/UX like kicad does, such as some online simulators: falstad, everycircuit, and maybe there are others.

Try to learn to use Solidworks or Photoshop or Blender or any other similarly complex software in such a short time and you'd have the same problem.

good point!

now, I have not had a chance to use solidworks or blender, but I did use photoshop. takes zero time to get started with (of course, complex tasks take more time to learn). and guess what, there is something to compare it with... that's right, you guessed it: gimp! yet another example of "do a research on the best practices in UI/UX and implement the opposite".

that being said, however, I can use gimp. I had to learn it because no alternatives (running in linux) existed at that time. yet I still call it a good example of how not to design a picture editor.

For those of us that even occasionally use the software for paid jobs pirated tools are not an option.

good point too, but my case is occasional hobby usage. yes I'd much prefer not to use a pirated copy. I'd even buy it if it had a hobbyist license for a reasonable price, say, $50 or $100, and I'd do it even more willingly if it had a native linux build. but starting at $7k? really? are you kidding me? don't be surprised that your software is pirated.

p.s. nevermind. having read the discussion in the last few dozens of posts regarding how the schematic editor works w/r/t netlist and connections, I understand that the authors of kicad implemented something very contrary of what one would expect from an electronics CAD tool.
in other words, it's not worth the pain of trying to learn it.
many thanks to @propellerhead for taking the time to explain what I would have run into, should I have decided to keep learning how to use it for the purpose of giving a FOSS CAD a chance. it's not a case of a tool being "not ideal", but it's a pretty good implementation of wrong approaches and goals, and since "it's not a bug, it's a feature", it's never going to be fixed.

[Monkeh]

why doesn't kicad have this very obviously necessary feature? I don't know.

Because you haven't written it yet.

[shapirus]

Because you haven't written it yet.

and I never will, because of the amount of effort it requires to get started and do simple things. it fails to get new users quickly addicted to it, thus losing potential future contributors.
this is, unfortunately, a fundamental problem of many FOSS projects.

[John B]

I don't know how you can go through life with the mentality that if it's not easily achieved in 15 mins then just give up. No complex activity is going to be easy after 15 mins. At least watch a few tutorial videos to get started and get a feel for the workflow, otherwise I don't really think you wanted to give it a chance at all.

[james_s]

yes, that's precisely what happened.

complex software does not have to be horribly difficult to get started with. besides, there is nothing complex in drawing a very basic circuit.

for comparison, i needed literally 5 minutes to get started with proteus: its UI follows the industry standard principles of user interaction and has no apparent goal of preventing the user from using it intuitively, which makes it easy to get started with, but, at the same time, not less powerful when it comes to more complex tasks.
obviously, considerable effort of a team of professionals in the respective area was put into getting it right.

The problem here is not with the software, the problem is that you're clueless and refused to spend anywhere near the time required to learn to use a tool then decided that tool was crap. If you're happy stealing Proteus and it works for you then keep doing that, but many thousands of people are able to use KiCad without the problems that you had, because they have an attention span longer than that of a gnat and take the time to use it. I don't find anything difficult about drawing a very basic circuit in KiCad, the software works just fine, it is you that have the problem as you are expecting it to work just like a $7,000 product that you stole.

[james_s]

and I never will, because of the amount of effort it requires to get started and do simple things. it fails to get new users quickly addicted to it, thus losing potential future contributors.
this is, unfortunately, a fundamental problem of many FOSS projects.

They don't want you as a contributor anyway. They need people that can stay focused and that are willing to take the time to learn to do something properly rather than getting bored and wandering off the moment something shiny catches their eye. It's also not useful to have somebody just complaining about something but refusing to do anything to improve it. It's pretty obvious that you just came here to complain.

[SiliconWizard]

this is, unfortunately, a fundamental problem of many FOSS projects.

The fundamental problem of FOSS projects is that they are not commercial projects. In other words. Very insightful, thanks.

[propellerhead]

They don't want you as a contributor anyway.... It's also not useful to have somebody just complaining about something but refusing to do anything to improve it. It's pretty obvious that you just came here to complain.

This statement is about eight kinds of wrong, beginning with being predicated on a false equivalency:  That
being an expert user somehow equates with being an expert - or even a merely competent - programmer.

Don't make me go on.

[LazyJack]

I don't know. This is either an obvious trolling or some really clueless user. When I first met KiCAD it took me a couple of hours from installing to send the gerbers for manufacture.
This whole thread is starting to resemble a Conversation with Zuzu Petals.

[james_s]

This statement is about eight kinds of wrong, beginning with being predicated on a false equivalency:  That
being an expert user somehow equates with being an expert - or even a merely competent - programmer.

Don't make me go on.

You think they want someone contributing that can't even be bothered to spend more than 15 minutes to learn how to use the software at even the most basic level and instead just brags about their own incompetence, laziness and felony theft? I never said anyone needs to be an expert user, not even close, but come on, 15 minutes? Somehow I don't believe someone with that short of an attention span has invested anywhere close to the time required to be a competent software developer. I've worked with a thankfully very few people that had that sort of impatience and they had a net negative productivity because we spent more time coaching them through redoing work they had half assed than it would have taken to just have one of the other devs take it.

But, they can feel free to prove me wrong by posting some of their projects.

[shapirus]

why is it not at all unexpected to receive personal attacks in response to criticism about the obviously flawed UI of a product that badly needs attention of a proper UI/UX professional? it should also be noted that I am not alone in this.

no, sorry, gentlemen, when the software product is well designed, it does not require new users, who already have significant experience with other similar products and with computer systems in general, to invest any considerable effort into learning and forcing themselves to change their habits developed over decades of using products that follow the UI/UX practices that are considered standard in the industry.

if it does that, then the problem is in the software, not in new users trying to get started. the fact that it is free and/or open source does not cancel the fact that the user experience it provides is poor.

of course, I cannot demand that a FOSS product absolutely must have a professionally designed UI or anything else, and, for those who haven't noticed, I don't do it. I merely state that this product, unlike some, if not many, others fails to provide an easy start for new users, and for some users, who have alternatives, it is a sufficient reason to dump this product altogether.


p.s. w/r/t "stealing" software. this is an incorrect term. it's not stealing, because stealing makes someone lose something that they own, which is not the case with pirated software: if someone makes a copy, the original does not disappear.
it's not even lost profit, because, in my case, I wouldn't pay for this software anyway: at this ridiculous price point, it's either pirated or nothing, and it brings up an interesting question of what of these two choices is actually more useful for its maker (remember how pirating windows 95 actually helped it to gain enormous popularity and finish off the competitor).

[tooki]

What’s so weird about this thread is that it somewhat had me on the side of defending KiCad, despite the fact that I have very mixed feelings about it.

I’m a former UX professional, and IMHO KiCad gets lots of things wrong with regards to usability (which, as I have said many times before and no doubt will say many more times, is a really common problem in open source software). But it’s not horrible. What I find puzzling about it is how, despite having some fairly advanced features, in other areas it’s astoundingly basic. I’m a proficient Altium user, and whenever I need to work in KiCad, I get irritated at things that aren’t there (like really good alignment/snap tools). I’m sure that some things are simply it not being what I’m used to, but others really aren’t there. Something I use all the time in Altium that KiCad can’t do is editing multiple objects at once. That’s something so fundamental I am flabbergasted it can’t do it. (And yes, I’ve verified that it really can’t.)

On the flip side, it’s fast, the resulting PCBs are good, and it’s free. That’s nothing to sneeze at, and the developers deserve credit for that.

[propellerhead]

Something I use all the time in Altium that KiCad can’t do is editing multiple objects at once.

I don't understand.  Can you explain that, svp?

[thinkfat]

why is it not at all unexpected to receive personal attacks in response to criticism about the obviously flawed UI of a product that badly needs attention of a proper UI/UX professional? it should also be noted that I am not alone in this.

no, sorry, gentlemen, when the software product is well designed, it does not require new users, who already have significant experience with other similar products and with computer systems in general, to invest any considerable effort into learning and forcing themselves to change their habits developed over decades of using products that follow the UI/UX practices that are considered standard in the industry.

Translation: I have spent years getting proficient on a very particular set of tools and I can't be arsed to learn any other tool if it does not cater to my every need in just the same way. So I just declare my habits as "industry standard" and make derisive comments on the ("obviously" flawed) tools that don't comply with those habits.

if it does that, then the problem is in the software, not in new users trying to get started. the fact that it is free and/or open source does not cancel the fact that the user experience it provides is poor.

of course, I cannot demand that a FOSS product absolutely must have a professionally designed UI or anything else, and, for those who haven't noticed, I don't do it. I merely state that this product, unlike some, if not many, others fails to provide an easy start for new users, and for some users, who have alternatives, it is a sufficient reason to dump this product altogether.

The problem is then, IMHO, that the experienced users have accumulated habits and workflows that get in their way when starting with a new product. When I started using KiCad with version 5 (v4 was just too broken), I was still a beginner to electronic design, but I had used CircuitMaker before for designing my very first circuits and PCBs. I had no complaints about CM as an EDA suite, except for the libraries being completely broken and the footprints being a hotch-potch mess, forcing me to create my own footprints and even symbols many times, which is a common criticism. Switching to KiCad was not a "hitting the ground running", but I still mostly battled my lack of overall knowledge, not KiCad as a tool. But I was willing to learn.

p.s. w/r/t "stealing" software. this is an incorrect term. it's not stealing, because stealing makes someone lose something that they own, which is not the case with pirated software: if someone makes a copy, the original does not disappear.
it's not even lost profit, because, in my case, I wouldn't pay for this software anyway: at this ridiculous price point, it's either pirated or nothing, and it brings up an interesting question of what of these two choices is actually more useful for its maker (remember how pirating windows 95 actually helped it to gain enormous popularity and finish off the competitor).

You have very odd idea about theft. If you don't buy a ticket for the subway and use it nevertheless, on the argument that it's too expensive, maybe that is not technically "theft", but it's not legal, either.

[JPortici]

Something I use all the time in Altium that KiCad can’t do is editing multiple objects at once.

I don't understand.  Can you explain that, svp?

Assign same value/constraint/field to multiple objects, last i've checked they have promised it's in the works because for now the solution is "just write a python script to do that"
But it's been a while since i used any PCB cad, too many programming jobs lately

You have very odd idea about theft. If you don't buy a ticket for the subway and use it nevertheless, on the argument that it's too expensive, maybe that is not technically "theft", but it's not legal, either.

it's them who started the whole you wouldn't steal a car thing in that sense copying a file is not theft