So that's why python screwed Windows 7

[PlainName]

Again, I'm not sure I understand. Since you say onboard graphics, I'll assume you bought a computer designed to run Win 10 and now you want to install Win 7.

No, I bought a computer to run Windows 7 which was fine. Then there was a hardware issue so I dropped in a replacement motherboard and CPU. The problem is it's a I7-7700. Windows 7 would be fine with that but Microsoft persuaded Intel not to release drivers that would work on Windows 7. There is nothing special about the graphics hardware or drivers, but since you can't get a working driver for new Intel processors later than I7-6xxx (or AMD, of similar vintage, I think), except for Windows 10, the only option is to use an external card.

So the software is fine. The hardware is fine. Microsoft just think that if I can run hardware this new then I should be using Windows 10, for no technical reason at all. And they go out of their way to enforce that.

Same with NVME SSDs. There are no official Windows 7 drivers. Unfortunately for Microsoft, they did release a driver a long time ago and people made a copy, which is available if you know where to look. Works fine but, again, if you're running hardware new enough to use NVME you must surely be forced to run Windows 10 if you want to use it.

[Karel]

Wasn't that the same when windows vista arrived? Many printers became suddenly obsolete because
HP refused to release printerdrivers for vista for their older printers. Those printers continued to work
fine with a modern Linux distro 

[PlainName]

Vista wasn't compatible with XP, so the drivers would be technically different. That's not the case with W7.

Besides which, no-one in their right minds used Vista 

[nimish]

If you didn't pay for extended support until 2023, that's on you. That's only for security upgrades.

Sucks but there's been replacements for over a decade.

Ask the python and kicad devs for a refund of the $ you spent on work to keep it compatible with 7.

[PlainName]

If you didn't pay for extended support until 2023...

I get the impression you haven't been following this thread properly. The issue is not that I would like support forever and a fortnight. It is merely that I don't want things deliberately broken when, without any action, they would otherwise work.

Which means your comment is probably meant for a different thread since it has no relevance to this one.

[nimish]

If you didn't pay for extended support until 2023...

I get the impression you haven't been following this thread properly. The issue is not that I would like support forever and a fortnight. It is merely that I don't want things deliberately broken when, without any action, they would otherwise work.

Which means your comment is probably meant for a different thread since it has no relevance to this one.

You're complaining that a major (i.e., breaking backwards compat is on the table) update version of software made a decision to remove Windows 7 support, but a) you chose to move to KiCad 6 (and not stick with 5.X like you are with Windows 7) b) you have latched on to the python 3 dependency as the culprit despite it being a core part of KiCad 6's pcbnew and necessary for many of the improved plugins and API, including the footprint wizards.

Next time, read the changelog more carefully and don't assume they dropped compatibility without reason. It's incoherent too, why did you upgrade beyond 5.X yet stick to win 7?

Have you gotten your money back yet?

cf. https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Bike-Fall.jpg

[Karel]

I also don't get it.
You have at least three options:

• stick with KiCad V5 and windows 7
• buy a windows 10 licence or buy a new pc
• use Linux

[johnh]

Dual boot if you need to use windoze software

I also don't get it.
You have at least three options:

• stick with KiCad V5 and windows 7
• buy a windows 10 licence or buy a new pc
• use Linux

[PlainName]

You're complaining that a major (i.e., breaking backwards compat is on the table) update version of software made a decision to remove Windows 7 support

No! Can you not read? I am complaining that they deliberately broke it so it couldn't work anyway. Without the ACTIVE breaking it may well have worked. If it didn't, them's the breaks and such is life, but that's not what happened.

[PlainName]

buy a windows 10 licence or buy a new pc

Not a chance. It is shit and worse than an unsupported W7. I already have it on a laptop and it is loathsome.

[PlainName]

Didn't want to keep bringing this up, but something was nagging at my mind and today I realised what it was.

My PC has a recent i7 with reasonably decent onboard graphics, but I have to use a graphics card with Windows because Microsoft decided they weren't going to support cheapskates who can afford a recent computer but not an upgrade to W10. Thus there are no drivers.

But... Linux works fine. Doesn't give a shit about arbitrary obsolescence. Indeed, there is support in there for all kinds of ancient and no longer available hardware, and it seems to be quite rare that hardware is just dumped on a whim. It seems to me that the sort of support there is attractive to those trying to ween off Windows, or just someone looking to something to get some old stuff working.

So the mindset of the Kicad/Python crew that "hey, it's old, get over it and buy something new" is counter to the perceived view of Linux and OS in general and more like that of Microsoft.

[Karel]

So the mindset of the Kicad/Python crew that "hey, it's old, get over it and buy something new" is counter to the perceived view of Linux and OS in general and more like that of Microsoft.

You are contradicting yourself. The (latest) Linux runs fine also on older hardware which means you can run the latest
KiCad also on older hardware (by using Linux).

[nctnico]

So the mindset of the Kicad/Python crew that "hey, it's old, get over it and buy something new" is counter to the perceived view of Linux and OS in general and more like that of Microsoft.

You are contradicting yourself. The (latest) Linux runs fine also on older hardware which means you can run the latest
KiCad also on older hardware (by using Linux).

You are missing the point here. Which is: why obsolete something 'just because'. And still you'd need to update a Linux box to a recent version which you may not want to do because older software might not be compatible with a newer Linux version. The best way is to always make software as compatible as possible with various OS versions to avoid causing problems for the user.

[PlainName]

So the mindset of the Kicad/Python crew that "hey, it's old, get over it and buy something new" is counter to the perceived view of Linux and OS in general and more like that of Microsoft.

You are contradicting yourself. The (latest) Linux runs fine also on older hardware which means you can run the latest
KiCad also on older hardware (by using Linux).

I am not. You are misunderstanding my point thrust. As Linux is to hardware, Kicad is to software.

[Karel]

The best way is to always make software as compatible as possible with various OS versions to avoid causing problems for the user.

Perfect is the enemy of good.

The best way to get what you want is to offer money. How much did you offer?

Feel free to fork KiCad and start your own variant. If you are right, it shouldn't be too hard to find enough volunteers
to help you. Probably many developers from the KiCad team will follow you. What do you think?

[nctnico]

The best way is to always make software as compatible as possible with various OS versions to avoid causing problems for the user.

Perfect is the enemy of good.

The best way to get what you want is to offer money. How much did you offer?

Feel free to fork KiCad and start your own variant. If you are right, it shouldn't be too hard to find enough volunteers
to help you. Probably many developers from the KiCad team will follow you. What do you think?

I think the Kicad developers are typical software engineers that do no care about common deployment problems for users. IOW: a bunch of amateurs that still need to learn A LOT about writing software to be used in a production environment. Just look at how much convincing and time it took for them to take implementing a parts database properly even serious. And now there is only one guy working on it.

[ataradov]

There is a solution - don't use products from amateurs, nobody is forcing you. Windows compatibility solved.

Maintaining outdated software has costs. You don't have to do a full fork. If you feel like this part could be improved - spend your own time. They have delivered a product that works on current OSes.

[nctnico]

There is a solution - don't use products from amateurs. Windows compatibility solved.

Indeed. That is why I bought Orcad (which works fine on Windows 7 and an older release of Linux) instead of dumping my money into Kicad.

[Karel]

There is a solution - don't use products from amateurs. Windows compatibility solved.

Indeed. That is why I bought Orcad (which works fine on Windows 7 and an older release of Linux) instead of dumping my money into Kicad.

Well then, I guess that's what dunkemhigh should do as well... Let's see what he thinks about that 

[PlainName]

There is a solution - don't use products from amateurs

Can't, though I'd quite like to try it out. Perhaps you missed that bit which is, after all, only the majority of this thread

[PlainName]

There is a solution - don't use products from amateurs. Windows compatibility solved.

Indeed. That is why I bought Orcad (which works fine on Windows 7 and an older release of Linux) instead of dumping my money into Kicad.

Well then, I guess that's what dunkemhigh should do as well... Let's see what he thinks about that 

As you should know, I use Altium. Which works on W7 perfectly happily, but then it's a serious commercial product so you'd expect that. I would quite like to try Kicad again to see what's changed, and if those things address my previous problems with it. Who knows, if I liked it enough I might switch, or at least add it to my repertoire. Doesn't look like I will have the opportunity to find out, though.

[Karel]

If you are used to use windows and don't feel like switching OS, and if you are satisfied with altium,
then why don't you stick with it as long as possible?
No need to try KiCad because you already paid for altium.
And the longer you wait, the more evolved and polished KiCad will be when you give it a try.

[PlainName]

Is there some reason why one shouldn't be inquisitive, look at different things, perhaps try to improve one's lot?

[Karel]

Is there some reason why one shouldn't be inquisitive, look at different things, perhaps try to improve one's lot?

A reason could be that a certain thing you would like to try, doesn't work on your pc / platform / configuration.
So hop on to something else worth trying, maybe something that actually works on your pc?

 

[PlainName]

I think Windows 7 users are typical users that do not care about the amount of time and effort it takes to develop software.

Actually, if you would be bothered to understand this thread instead of knee-jerking your outrage, you'd realise that we would quite like you NOT to make the effort to DELIBERATELY disable something you don't care about. If it were just left alone we would all be happy - you would ignore 'old stuff' and we could see how brill your product is. But someone, somewhere has made specific effort to prevent that. That's what this thread is about.