Author Topic: This "feature" almost cost me a project.  (Read 1431 times)

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Offline alj

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This "feature" almost cost me a project.
« on: May 01, 2019, 06:09:24 pm »
The feature that automatically and silently joins all hidden pins into own nets even if you manually connect labeled nets to them.

https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/912529

I understand why someone might like this feature, but the fact that you cannot disable it makes a whole set of library components to be not usable if you want to use separate power rails. Also it is not very obvious way to automatically and silently modify your schematics. Simple rule to disable behavior if hidden pin has connection would be "thing of beauty, joy forever" like certain people say.

What do you think?
 

Offline awallin

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Re: This "feature" almost cost me a project.
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2019, 06:25:17 pm »
hidden power pins are not allowed for new symbols, and are considered bugs that should be fixed in the current library.
see e.g.
http://kicad-pcb.org/libraries/klc/S3.8/
https://github.com/KiCad/kicad-symbols/issues/756

it would help if there was a list of symbols that are affected, as an issue on github. maybe this could be script-generated or if the number is small perhaps manually..

seems the fix is to use symgen to generate new symbols: https://github.com/bobc/kicad-symgen/tree/master/symgen
and the consensus seems to be to fix these by 6.0 - so not sure where this work should go now while we are on 5.1.x... (is there a 6.0 branch of the libs?)
 

Offline alj

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Re: This "feature" almost cost me a project.
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2019, 06:38:34 pm »
The whole 74xGxx and 74xIEEE library in the latest KiCAD is affected.
 

Offline alj

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Re: This "feature" almost cost me a project.
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2019, 06:45:45 pm »
The question is - if this is "prohibited" feature - why not just disable it in a software and make all hidden pins visible?

If it is there, someone will create new symbols with hidden pins because they can.

 

Offline nctnico

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Re: This "feature" almost cost me a project.
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2019, 04:20:39 am »
The feature that automatically and silently joins all hidden pins into own nets even if you manually connect labeled nets to them.

https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/912529

I understand why someone might like this feature, but the fact that you cannot disable it makes a whole set of library components to be not usable if you want to use separate power rails. Also it is not very obvious way to automatically and silently modify your schematics. Simple rule to disable behavior if hidden pin has connection would be "thing of beauty, joy forever" like certain people say.

What do you think?
This is how all (professional) CAD packages work when it comes to power pins. I agree though that it is very outdated given the fact that many digital designs have 2 or more supply voltages nowadays.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline mstevens

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Re: This "feature" almost cost me a project.
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2019, 11:06:21 am »
The question is - if this is "prohibited" feature - why not just disable it in a software and make all hidden pins visible?

Download the source and make the modification yourself. It is an open source project.
 
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Offline Ranayna

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Re: This "feature" almost cost me a project.
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2019, 05:56:03 pm »
 :-BROKE
Nice one. An attitude like that is one of the biggest reasons why open source has such a bad reputation with many people. Congratulations on reinforcing that image. :clap:
Arrogance like that really puzzles me. Do you not want people to use open source? Do you really expect that everyone who uses open source software needs to be an expert programmer?

Hrmpf, sorry for ranting here, but that comment broke the camels back.
 
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Offline LapTop006

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Re: This "feature" almost cost me a project.
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2019, 11:18:30 pm »
The question is - if this is "prohibited" feature - why not just disable it in a software and make all hidden pins visible?

On its own that would make footprints with many pins all expected to be at the same potential messy. Sometimes putting them each on their own pin makes sense, sometimes not.

A change could be made to show one where there's a stack of several, but that also wouldn't solve everything as some chips have a bunch of N/C pins, and keeping those as hidden pins does make sense.
 

Offline donotdespisethesnake

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Re: This "feature" almost cost me a project.
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2019, 05:52:53 am »
:-BROKE
Nice one. An attitude like that is one of the biggest reasons why open source has such a bad reputation with many people. Congratulations on reinforcing that image. :clap:
Arrogance like that really puzzles me. Do you not want people to use open source? Do you really expect that everyone who uses open source software needs to be an expert programmer?

Hrmpf, sorry for ranting here, but that comment broke the camels back.

That's one of the reasons I stopped contributed to Open Source projects. Many users are arrogant and entitled, and expect other people to work for free to fulfill there every wish. The fact is, no developer is in anyway obliged to the "user" to provide any level of support, nor provide the software in the first place.

About 1 in every 100 thanked me for my work, the rest seemed to expect 24 hour support, help with creating their projects, and implementing any new feature they can think of. 1 person overall offered to help with design, ZERO offered any financial support to reimburse time or costs.

Open Source is available to download and modify... that is a fact. If stating that makes the developers "arrogant", you live in a very twisted world.

It's kinda like borrowing a neighbors lawnmower, then demanding he also mow the lawn for you. Shouldn't you be returning the favor, rather than placing more demands? Anyway, I got tired working as other people's developer bitch, those ungrateful users can go use commercial software which steals their data. I really don't care.
Bob
"All you said is just a bunch of opinions."
 
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Offline Bassman59

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Re: This "feature" almost cost me a project.
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2019, 07:05:10 am »
The question is - if this is "prohibited" feature - why not just disable it in a software and make all hidden pins visible?

If it is there, someone will create new symbols with hidden pins because they can.

Because, while the idea of hidden pins is shitty in the extreme, it was also the standard for many years (if you ever did +5V TTL design you'd know why).

Kicad is flexible and doesn't preclude anyone's particular workflow. If you don't like hidden power pins, create symbols that don't use them, or modify symbols that do. You should always vet your libraries prior to using them, anyway.

Also as someone else noted, the volunteer Kicad library team has put out their library standard, and that prohibits hidden pins, and they've been working to update all of the standard libraries to conform. It is unfortunate that they missed one.
 

Offline Ranayna

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Re: This "feature" almost cost me a project.
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2019, 08:04:47 am »
Of course no one is entitled to free work.

But then you have to ask yourself when working on OSS: Why are you doing this? There surely is a reason.
Don't complain that only few people are using the program you contributed to, when it is too complicated to use or riddled with bugs and inconsistencies.

I am not a programmer. I know the basics. I can slap together a quick script, maybe even with a little GUI, but thats it. I know that i do not know enough to be able to realisticly modify an OSS program (and have it still work :p), especially in an programming language i am not familiar with.

When i then see issues reported, or i report them myself, on whatever channel, it is so damn often that i see this reply, boiling down to: "Do/fix/change it yourself, it's open source".
The problem i have with this is not really the fact that there is an issue. There are always bugs ;). But when i see the "Fix it yourself" answer, and nothing else, that is arrogance. Funny enough, i think most of the time this is not even coming from active contributers.
I think that everyone who would be able to fix that issue themselves would likely not even ask, or rather just ask if you are aware yet or not. It should be a reasonable assumption, that someone who reports an issue and asks for a fix, is not able to do it himself.
Acknowlegde the issue. And if you do not want to fix the issue, or cannot, for whatever reason, please say so as well. Any user should then accept this. If not, that is where the entitlement starts.

Gah, i'm ranting again. I am sorry if i am coming across as horribly entitled. I always try to be reasonable. I do not know you, nor your projects, so i will not presume to offer hollow thanks. But maybe this post can help you see the "other side".
 

Online Bud

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Re: This "feature" almost cost me a project.
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2019, 08:21:25 am »
Hiding pins helps make schematic look clean. Seems the problem here is not with the feature but with implementation.
 

Offline Bassman59

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Re: This "feature" almost cost me a project.
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2019, 03:21:54 am »
When i then see issues reported, or i report them myself, on whatever channel, it is so damn often that i see this reply, boiling down to: "Do/fix/change it yourself, it's open source".
The problem i have with this is not really the fact that there is an issue. There are always bugs ;). But when i see the "Fix it yourself" answer, and nothing else, that is arrogance. Funny enough, i think most of the time this is not even coming from active contributers.

Bingo.

If you follow the Kicad developer's email list or monitor the bug tracker, you will never see "fix it yourself." That group of developers is the least arrogant of any open-source project I've seen. Certainly less so than the people who populate this forum.
 


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