Anyone tried PCBWin?

[nwvlab]

Hi there!

I found PCBWin (http://www.pcbwin.com/), which seems to have good price/capabilities performances for low quantities (some seems better than PCBWay, in particular the minimum solder bridge). Anyone tried it? Would you recommend it?

Cheers

Nicola

[wraper]

Seem to be yet another face of PCBway, 3PCB and pcbgogo. Choose the one which will offer better price, PCBs will be from the same factory. Also, if you upload the files, and get price increased from what was given by online quote, upload them again in a few hours. Gerbers will be checked by different person, and very likely price won't be increased.

[wraper]

doesn't order progress bar look similar?
http://www.pcbwin.com/online_order
http://www.pcbgogo.com/pcb-board-quote.html
http://www.3pcb.com/pcb-board-quote.html

[nwvlab]

Thank you, also for the hints

Yes, the progress bars look similar, but maybe they just copied the layout
In fact, some specs are slightly different each other, and some offer more options (panelization, etc.).

cheers

[wraper]

All others also have different design, different quotation parameters yet are exactly the same guys.

[nwvlab]

All others also have different design, different quotation parameters yet are exactly the same guys.

I sent all of them similar questions ^^ I wonder if they realized this ^^

[technotronix]

I don't have any experience yet but can can take review from their client and also compare quality, tun around and cost with others.

[wraper]

It does not look bad, at least. When choosing a fab, I take a look at these factors, any of these trigger my BS alarm:

1. They offer or even advertise PCB clone or MCU decrypt service.
2. Obvious typo or grammar issues in their front page.
3. Computer rendered photos of their facility.

Seems like it passed my BS test.

3. "factory" building photo with computer rendered logo.

[wraper]

Though they seem to be different enough from other 3 websites and seem to use their own photos. Domain was registered on 2016-02-23, by different person and using different registrar unlike 3 other clones. Domain name probably chosen to be similar to pcbwing.com to get hits from the wrong input. So dunno, not 100% sure if it is or isn't pcbway clone. No photos of the box in which PCBs get shipped, so not possible to check by that either.
But all websites were certainly made at the same place. Once you start ordering, they are nearly identical.
The difference is that order gets reviewed after the payment, unlike on other websites where it is done before payment.

[nwvlab]

  ?!? Do you think they might be scammers? I was just about to place an order in few minutes!
I'm a bit afraid now 

[wraper]

I don't think they are scammers, pretty sure your boards will get delivered.

[wraper]

?!? Do you think they might be scammers? I was just about to place an order in few minutes!
I'm a bit afraid now 

If you are concerned about rendered factory logo on the building, pcbway have rendered logo too.

[nwvlab]

So... I placed the order...

I hope the quality is good

[wraper]

please tell the result once they arrive.

[nwvlab]

I will.

I'm also curious, because they claim some features (minimum soldermask bridge) which were lacking in PCBWay... Order has been reviewed and now it's under processing.

cheers!

[wraper]

Ordered 50 panels with 19x16 cm size consisting of 8 PCBs each, ENIG and matte blue solder resist, $280 including delivery which is about $50 cheaper than PCB way and matte solder resist at no additional cost. As quantity is significant, should have some guess about quality and consistency.

[nwvlab]

On 20/09 I ordered 10 panels 4x4 cm each  (yep, each board is very small, and I did not need a huge quantity for my prototype), 4 layers, black matte sm, ENIG finish, with stencil (you must drop a line asking for it, and they will manually adjust the price). The total price was 130$ including shipping. They also sent me a checkplot (I asked for it), before actually manufacturing the stencil.

Unfortunately they had a 12-hours power failure, so they are going to ship the boards tomorrow, instead of today. I'm not in a hurry, therefore this  was not a problem to me. I really do hope that the quality is as claimed!

If they keep their word about their specs, in my opinion this was the best price. In fact, for instance, they claim a minimum solder mask bridge of 0.12 mm, if the pin2pin spacing is 0.2mm*: therefore, I think that the soldermask alignment should be better than 2 mils, otherwise there could be soldermask over the pads. We'll see.

I'll keep you updated.

*to be honest, they claim minimum bridge (with 0.2mm spacing) for green sm, and 0.12 mm (I assume therefore with 0.22 mm spacing) for other sm colors.

[nwvlab]

Sooo, here I am again.

Finally, the package arrived. It was much bigger than I expected, with a lot of protective foam: they could have packaged in a much easier (and cheaper for them) way.
 
Back to the board:

The overall quality seems a bit better than PCBWay. In particular:
1) The routing was much better and precise (now round corners are actually round!).
2) I can't decide which silkscreen is better in terms of readability, compared to PCBWay. However:
   a) The silkscreen alignment is very good (much better compared to PCBWay). For instance I wrote some "+" in the panel, in all layers (including silkscreen) and the metal and the silkscreen are perfectly aligned.
   b) PCBWay used a very large clearance between pads and silkscreen, so they cut many text, which were "too close" (not that much) to pads. Instead, in this PCBWin run, the silkscreen is readable near the pads.
Still, (but that's a problem of my homemade reflow oven calibration), the silkscreen is more "sensitive" to high temperature, with respect to PCBWay (I mean, the silkscreen became a little bit yellowish. But you almost cannot notice it).
3) The solder bridge is present, however, I don't know why, between SOME pads of the same QFN chip there is no soldermask bridge! (see later about gerber edits)

However, some things made me a bit upset:
1) They edited my gerbers    For instance:
   a) by adding one hole on the route tabs. Ok, this allows to break the panel by hand (I use a knife for my prototypes), but it's somewhat annyoing knowing that someone edits your gerbers, without even knowing the final application.
   b) It seems to me that they reduced the stencil aperture of two pads (those of the chassis) of the USB connector... that's strange.
   c) Instead, it seems they changed (enlarged) the soldermask aperture for some components :/ Maybe this is  why between some pads the soldermask bridge is missing.
 2) The stencil appears a bit thick. Ok, I have been stupid, because I forgot to specify the thickness. However I asked esplicitly "For any questions contact me please!", so they should have contacted me asking for the thickness. And furthermore, if you see fine pitch and 0402 components, you won't go for a very thick soldermask. Fortunately, the solder paste I use actually does miracles and it is VERY forgiving, and I got no shorts, no tombstoning, no issues

After reflow (i soldered one panel, i.e. two boards) it's working

I will post later some pictures.

A final rant goes to TNT: do not use TNT, at least if you live in Italy. They have a fixed import administration fee of 24.4€. VAT was 25.5€ (perfectly aligned to what I payed, unlike DHL). They almost doubled the VAT!!!
TNT, however, had the lowest shipping fee (10.4$)... I will check if other carriers are cheaper overall.

Cheers!

[wraper]

Why the hell they put PCB count in the invoice, not panel count  . Now customs asking me what I'm going to do with 400 pcbs, sounds much more than 50 panels. The funny part is in a few days another order with 20 panels will arrive, 2400 tiny PCBs in total  .

[nwvlab]

Why the hell they put PCB count in the invoice, not panel count  . Now customs asking me what I'm going to do with 400 pcbs, sounds much more than 50 panels. The funny part is in a few days another order with 20 panels will arrive, 2400 tiny PCBs in total  .

In mine they just put the number of panels. I sent them the panel with two pcbs. Did you ask them to panelize your board or did you send the panel? Anyway you can just ask them what they should specify in the invoice (including price ).

[wraper]

I supplied them panel gerbers. But in online quotation you set the total PCB count for some reason, not panel count.

[wraper]

Anyway you can just ask them what they should specify in the invoice (including price ).

Too late. Also specifying the price don't work here, unless you want to forge the paypal or bank statement (and potentially get into serious trouble). It never clears the customs automatically (any courier except post and EMS), you always need to provide documents before it gets cleared.

[nwvlab]

Anyway you can just ask them what they should specify in the invoice (including price ).

Too late. Also specifying the price don't work here, unless you want to forge the paypal or bank statement (and potentially get into serious trouble). It never clears the customs automatically (any courier except post and EMS), you always need to provide documents before it gets cleared.

Yep, that's why I told them to write the full price, even if they offered to declare a lower value. In fact, TNT requested me the invoice (despite it was outside the package!), but I also sent the last paypal transactions for confirmation.

For the panel/PCB numbers, I can't find where you must specify the number of pcbs. Yes,you specify the number of copies in the array (so they will do the math), but, well I guess I have been lucky and they just wrote the number of PCBs

[wraper]

For the panel/PCB numbers, I can't find where you must specify the number of pcbs. Yes,you specify the number of copies in the array (so they will do the math), but, well I guess I have been lucky and they just wrote the number of PCBs

Normally you specify number of panels. With pcbwin there is PCB quantity in the panel, and there is just quantity, which, obviously, is a number of PCBs, as panel quantity gets calculated out of that. Panel quantity cannot be input directly, unless you input 1 pcb in the panel. I guess you selected 2 different designs in the panel and that counts as one copy.
First batch got cleared after I wrote them a fairy tale.

[nwvlab]

nope I just set 1 different design (each panel contained two copies)