Are expensive soldering stations really worth it?

[coppice]

The main reason people adjust the temperature of their iron is to crank it up so the temperature doesn't plummet too much when they apply the iron to a large object. The whole point of the Metcal design is to reduce those temperature drops, so twiddling the temperature becomes a moot point.

I think the metcal doesn't do this fundametally different than other irons, though. I suspect people get the impression it performs better, simply because the setpoints of the pokey metcal tips is so high, combined with a sleep stand.

The whole point of a Metcal (and the Hakko and other irons which work in a similar way) is it DOES do things differently. The RF heating makes the thing respond almost instantly to a drop in temperature, with a rapid influx of energy right to the tip. That's thy the temperature drop is much smaller than with any resistive heating iron.

[KL27x]

The whole point of a Metcal (and the Hakko and other irons which work in a similar way) is it DOES do things differently. The RF heating makes the thing respond almost instantly to a drop in temperature, with a rapid influx of energy right to the tip. That's thy the temperature drop is much smaller than with any resistive heating iron.

I don't believe any of that. If the temperature drop were much smaller, then it wouldn't need to be 398C.

The RF heating makes the thing respond almost instantly to a drop in temperature, with a rapid influx of energy right to the tip.

I understand how they work, and I understand how a "traditional" 888 style works. And I've used both. And this entire sentence is irrational to me. I don't believe this is the case.

The main benefit of the metcal system is that more of the heat goes to the tip, not to the handle. In the really demanding tasks what would make a Hakko 888 handle piece uncomfortably hot, this is where the cartridge system is super beneficial. Regarding temp regulation, not so much different as two different ways to skin the same cat.

That said, the Metcal is going to punch the hardest for the watt rating.

I don't expect you to follow this. Not too many people understand the physics of this and have spend weeks contemplating and comparing in practice different iron designs.

Best to just ignore me and continue thinking you are right. That puts you in the best company. I'm not being condescending. I've come to realize I'm the grammar-nazi of physics and marketing wank, and no one else really cares about the semantics.

[Shock]

Yes they are worth it, but cartridge based stations are more for the prosumer/professional than hobbyist. Consumer based products are built to cost rather than quality and as such are bound to fail quicker.

China just happens to be the world leader in making cheap plastic shit at a time when people are realizing waste is a big issue. Not all plastic is bad and it's not just Chinas fault, everyone from manufacturers to consumers are to blame.

I get typically 10-20 years out of everything I own and a few years back I realized I'll never need to buy another TV in my life due to the failure rates just out of warranty, I've virtually an unlimited supply of broken ones to choose from.

I've recently replaced a washing machine as the PCB enclosure (hard plastic) had become brittle after 20 years or so, but that is about it.

[ebastler]

I don't expect you to follow this. Not too many people understand the physics of this and have spend weeks contemplating and comparing in practice different iron designs.

[KL27x]

Except I don't get a smile out of it. I just get shit on.

[Shock]

The whole point of a Metcal (and the Hakko and other irons which work in a similar way) is it DOES do things differently. The RF heating makes the thing respond almost instantly to a drop in temperature, with a rapid influx of energy right to the tip. That's thy the temperature drop is much smaller than with any resistive heating iron.

RF technology or induction heating on it's own doesn't mean all Metcal models are going to be better than anything else out there. Here is a chart from JBC which highlights this and two other things: JBC tips don't always heat up in 2 seconds and their stations overshoot ~20C .

[KL27x]

Just wanted to add another major advantage of the cartridge tips (metcal/JBC/T12/ADS) vs old ceramic heater styles, so's I'm not trying to say they're the same in every regard.

They are way better for using sleep stands. The 888 style tips need way more mass of copper to work properly, so will cchange temp slower. So if you run temps/tips where you benefit from sleep and are frequently in/out of the stand, then cartridges will provide a major advantage, which should provide longer tip life under these conditions, and faster operation out of the stand.

So, for many people the Metcal is going to be better. And in exactly the scenarios they imagine. It's the common reasoning of the how and the why which I disagree with. Once up to temp, this "responding faster and dumping more heat faster" thing is not actually the case (in any significance) how I understand it.

The RF Curie deal does not do anything to correct the sag between base/sensor copper and tip copper (and this is the sag that matters). What it does is make it faster to raise and lower the entire saggy bed, between sleep temp and the sliding scale of fixed set temps that compensate for the tip type. Same for pretty much all cartridge tip irons, but with those others, you have to jack up the dial, yourself.

(For me, I have almost zero use for pokey tips, or protoyping of multilayer boards, so I don't need to use high temps/sleep. Even if the pokey tip provided insta result and didn't require more frequent wiping/cleaning, I would still gravitate towards the largest tips for the job for the way they interact with and handle solder.)

[twospoons]

Over the last 40 years I've used all sorts of irons -  from cheap no-name ones,  to Weller, Pace, Hakko, Ersa and Metcal. Both variable and fixed temps.
I own a Metcal PS-900 and I love it.  For me it seems to just work really well, no matter what the job.

So yes, expensive soldering stations really are worth it. Once you've used a really good iron you wont want to go back to a cheap junker. Which you choose comes down to personal preference - as can be seen from the varied opinions expressed so far. I like Metcal - you may like something else. So long as it works for you thats all that really matters.

[Shock]

Cartridges pros: easier to swap when hot and less chance of damaging anything delicate like a ceramic heater. Not limited by geometry like models which have a sleeve slide over the tip. Faster to heat up and subsequently come out of standby. Generally a slimmer profile handpiece. Less to fail inside the handpiece (most of them are just a holder with a socket for the cartridge). If the heater in one cartridge fails it doesn't render the station inoperable. Shorter working distance. As KL27x mentioned, less coupling from the cartridge to the handpiece can mean less loss and cooler operator temps.

Cartridges cons: typically the station is more expensive. Most genuine cartridge tips (Pace is a bit of an exception) aren't cheap. Dropping a cartridge is a bad idea but it's not the end of the world if you have a spare.

[tszaboo]

The whole point of a Metcal (and the Hakko and other irons which work in a similar way) is it DOES do things differently. The RF heating makes the thing respond almost instantly to a drop in temperature, with a rapid influx of energy right to the tip. That's thy the temperature drop is much smaller than with any resistive heating iron.

I don't believe any of that. If the temperature drop were much smaller, then it wouldn't need to be 398C.

The RF heating makes the thing respond almost instantly to a drop in temperature, with a rapid influx of energy right to the tip.

I understand how they work, and I understand how a "traditional" 888 style works. And I've used both. And this entire sentence is irrational to me. I don't believe this is the case.

Except theregular lead free tip temperature is 357C. I typically set the Weller to 350 before that, so thats within margin of error. Also, I am fairly sure you havent used this iron, as you wouldnt write this much bullshit.

[KL27x]

Except theregular lead free tip temperature is 357C.

I assume you had a brainfart and meant to type "the regular leaded tip temp."

357C is the maximum temp of the 600 series. A lot of people use this for lead, but the 700 seems to be more popularly recommended, IME, and it's the middle of the 5 rages for Metcal. If you use the 600 series and use the eye poker tip and it works on multilayer boards with internal planes, then say so, and I believe you.

The Metcal 700 series ranges up to 413C per their PDF, and the Thermaltronics 700 series ranges up to 398C, per their website.

On the MFR range Metcal only lists 3 temp categories, and the one recommended for all FR-4 uses goes to 421C. The low one they list "temperature sensitive applications" tops out at 366C.

I have never owned or bought tips for one, but I have used a Metcal, and I liked it a lot. Being made for production use, I am not surprised if the 700 series is too hot for hobbyists. It might be more bang-on for production work with lead.



The Thermaltronics webpage is more illuminating, because it displays the temp minimum for the series, too, so you see the entire range of temp. Fattest tip vs pointiest tip makes ~50C difference. You turn the knob on any station 50C higher after putting on a skinnier tip, and it's gonna be cooking with some fire.

[Shock]

It's ok to adjust the temp NANDBlog, Metcal sells each tip in 4 to 5 different temps just for that exact purpose.

[thm_w]

Thm_W: But what temp did you run your 951 at? And did you remember that the pointier of the 700 series tips run as high as 398C? 

I believe the Metcal is worth every penny... if you like it. The ergos and balance is very good and very unique. And it is ruggedly built and well-supported for heavy production use. And it works, great. I'm sure it more than holds its own, even when you compare apples to apples. But if I were outfitting my own employees with them, I might wonder if I wasn't paying some extra $$$ for what is my own personal preference, compared to some cheaper alternatives.  For myself, if I like it? Sure, what's a few hundos?

On second thought, the Metcal system is maybe the best for professional use, because you can't adjust the temp. For me, I like to adjust for the job. But in a work environment, if the station is adjustable, completely wrong settings get used... for a week before anyone realizes why output has dropped and error rate has gone up.

I was running it over 700, the heat just gets sucked out of the small tips, you can't really compensate for it.
Normally I use the Hakko at 650 and its great, its just terrible with the tiny/long conical tips on multi-layer boards.

I totally agree with what you are saying though, the tips run hot, most of mine are 600 series though and I use leaded solder wherever possible for rework. If I were on lead-free I'd have to be a fair bit more careful, due to higher risk of burning sensitive parts. You'll want good air exhaust as well.

[tszaboo]

Except theregular lead free tip temperature is 357C.

I assume you had a brainfart and meant to type "the regular leaded tip temp."

No, I did mean lead free. You are only ruining your electronics, if you are soldering anywhere above 360. I was able to solder busbars into 4 layer, 70 um pcbs at this temperature. You might need to pre-heat, or use two irons, but guess what, thats why they have 2 channel stations. On the other hand your result is working electronics, and no burn marks on your PCB.
I mean soldering means different things for different people. If you are tinning wires and every second counts, by all means go with higher temperature. But for PCBs, and components on it, even 350-360 is too much.

[ebastler]

I was able to solder busbars into 4 layer, 70 um pcbs at this temperature. You might need to pre-heat, or use two irons, but guess what, thats why they have 2 channel stations.

Hmm... I was always under the assumption that 2-channel stations were built to allow you to rapidly switch between two handpieces, for alternating different soldering tasks. Also, I have used two irons at once for desoldering parts at times (and felt that it was an unprofessional workaround). But how do you juggle two irons and the solder at once?

The busbar example is not the most relevant for temperature control discussions, btw. I don't think the busbars woud have complained about a somewhat higher tip temperature...

[bd139]

Over the last 40 years I've used all sorts of irons -  from cheap no-name ones,  to Weller, Pace, Hakko, Ersa and Metcal. Both variable and fixed temps.
I own a Metcal PS-900 and I love it.  For me it seems to just work really well, no matter what the job.

So yes, expensive soldering stations really are worth it. Once you've used a really good iron you wont want to go back to a cheap junker. Which you choose comes down to personal preference - as can be seen from the varied opinions expressed so far. I like Metcal - you may like something else. So long as it works for you thats all that really matters.

I second this. Once you go Metcal you don't go back.

99%+ of the time you really don't need to give a crap about the tip temperature. What matters is the dwell time. And with a Metcal that is probably the lowest time out there.

What I really like about the Metcal is I can go from soldering 0603's to PCB boxes without having to futz with it. Then off to banging 20 joints a minute. It just does it and shuts up.

[Mp3]

I hope i get the opportunity to try a Metcal one day, but i was pretty damn impressed with the ADS200, it handled some jobs tonight that were big frustrating heat sinks to work on.

Left it at 700 and it was perfect.

Then went and assembled some thru hole + 0603 kits. No adjustments, and a nice long handle so i could work on a 76-key piano while it was on a keyboard stand next to my workstation. 

It's the first iron I ever besides some cheap T12 clone garbage that lets me hot-swap the tip, so that's fun too.

I love the ADS200 but i wonder if someone can compare it to a Metcal so i can satisfy some of my curiosity without spending a few hundred 

That said, i feel little desire to ever use my TS100 again after the ADS200; which is how i felt after trying the TS100 when the best i'd ever tried prior to that was the Hakko 888.

[all_repair]

Whatever expensive soldering iron you may want to collect later, you need at least a T12 now.  There are improved T12 handle on taobao that allow easy replacement of tips (hope you can sense the momentum behind). For this handle, the tip is inserted and is held by friction force so a locking nut is not needed.  Recently, I tapped a few tips (relatively less painful as non-Hakko tips are available cheaply and with plenty of different shapes) to hold the various kind of heating heads available on taobao (aliexpress should have also).  The head that can hold sharp blade for removing of glue on LCD or electronics, or for cutting plastics.   And there is another head to hold soft silicone which allow it to reheat/solder LCD ribbons.   To lower your cost, you can pick up used genuine Hakko T12 tips for your soldering needs.   From my last purchase, the condition of these used irons were very good.
For T12 controllers, I will get a high thermal capacity for a start.
Waiting time for heating or cooling is not a concern to me, my bench tidying can use it.

[epongenoir]

At work, I use a JBC CD-B with the T245 handle. It is so much better than other cheaper irons (Hakko, Weller etc) that I sold my Hakko station at home and bought the same JBC for home.

If for no other reason that the heat is turned off after putting the pencil back in the holder, it was worth it (no more hot iron for days by mistake!). Of course, being able to change the tips easily when it is still hot is another "never go back" feature (5 seconds).

This leads to the thermal perfomance, witch is fantastic with the normal conical tip, and rediculous with the chunky tip (both included), used for ground planes, copper sheets, thick cables, whatever. I bought a C245-937 tip to improve the 0.6mm conical tip thermal performance for fine soldering on large planes.

Once I showed it to the local tech space, they bought one too.

This, absolutely. I had a cheap ATTEN 8586 some time ago.
One friend of mine hada JBC, showed me, and i bought one.
Never been happier with soldering. It's AMAZING how fast and high performance that thing is.
For work in the field i use a TS100 with the laptop charger.

[bd139]

Just a point on the T12. The two units I had were either dangerous or blew up. The mains version is dodgy as fuck at best and the handles both went short and blew the MOSFET on the control board. Really poor quality.

[all_repair]

You need to be specific with your controllers.  T12 is referring to the tips.  There are genuine tips that are generally better quality.  You must be referring to the controllers, there are so many types available and many are experimental, DIY, some went for smallest form factor, and some went for high thermal capacity, some went for field portability.  I have at least 5 different kinds, excluding the TS100, none gave me any problem so far. 

[Monkeh]

Except theregular lead free tip temperature is 357C.

I assume you had a brainfart and meant to type "the regular leaded tip temp."

No, I did mean lead free. You are only ruining your electronics, if you are soldering anywhere above 360. I was able to solder busbars into 4 layer, 70 um pcbs at this temperature. You might need to pre-heat, or use two irons, but guess what, thats why they have 2 channel stations. On the other hand your result is working electronics, and no burn marks on your PCB.
I mean soldering means different things for different people. If you are tinning wires and every second counts, by all means go with higher temperature. But for PCBs, and components on it, even 350-360 is too much.

Nonsense. They've used these things in production for decades. You're expected to actually be competent at soldering and not sit there roasting your parts for 30 seconds a joint.

[coppice]

Except theregular lead free tip temperature is 357C.

I assume you had a brainfart and meant to type "the regular leaded tip temp."

No, I did mean lead free. You are only ruining your electronics, if you are soldering anywhere above 360. I was able to solder busbars into 4 layer, 70 um pcbs at this temperature. You might need to pre-heat, or use two irons, but guess what, thats why they have 2 channel stations. On the other hand your result is working electronics, and no burn marks on your PCB.
I mean soldering means different things for different people. If you are tinning wires and every second counts, by all means go with higher temperature. But for PCBs, and components on it, even 350-360 is too much.

Nonsense. They've used these things in production for decades. You're expected to actually be competent at soldering and not sit there roasting your parts for 30 seconds a joint.

Perhaps, but the interest in high performance soldering irons is really a result of lead free solder. Any old simple Weller or Hakko iron kept people happy in the lead solder days, and allowed them to work quickly.

[Monkeh]

Except theregular lead free tip temperature is 357C.

I assume you had a brainfart and meant to type "the regular leaded tip temp."

No, I did mean lead free. You are only ruining your electronics, if you are soldering anywhere above 360. I was able to solder busbars into 4 layer, 70 um pcbs at this temperature. You might need to pre-heat, or use two irons, but guess what, thats why they have 2 channel stations. On the other hand your result is working electronics, and no burn marks on your PCB.
I mean soldering means different things for different people. If you are tinning wires and every second counts, by all means go with higher temperature. But for PCBs, and components on it, even 350-360 is too much.

Nonsense. They've used these things in production for decades. You're expected to actually be competent at soldering and not sit there roasting your parts for 30 seconds a joint.

Perhaps, but the interest in high performance soldering irons is really a result of lead free solder. Any old simple Weller or Hakko iron kept people happy in the lead solder days, and allowed them to work quickly.

I still enjoy the heating time, rapidly changed tips, and ability to handle large masses which lesser systems struggle with, even with leaded solder.

That said, I have a cheap and nasty light-dimmer controlled hot poker which I can solder just fine with too - it's more the user than the tool if the tool has the basic capacity.

[tooki]

Perhaps, but the interest in high performance soldering irons is really a result of lead free solder. Any old simple Weller or Hakko iron kept people happy in the lead solder days, and allowed them to work quickly.

Lead-free may have exacerbated the situation, but high performance soldering stations have been in use far longer than lead-free was a thing. And if lead-free were the reason, then industries that are exempt from lead-free (like aerospace) would not bother with high-performance stations.