Author Topic: Bringing PCB assembly in-house with Dima Optimat?  (Read 6506 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jmelson

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1260
  • Country: us
Re: Bringing PCB assembly in-house with Dima Optimat
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2018, 08:48:59 pm »
I'm about 3 years down the road from the place you are today.  THe best thing i ever did was stop relying on CM, and brought it in house.   I've gone Yamaha ( now have 2 Yv-100iis) and will be adding a third slightly newer machine..    I've also had chinese desktops and i'd just say avoid them, it will just result in pain.      I'm using Vapour Phase and its great.   I dont' have too much problem with electrolytics,  ( we dont' use lots though ).. Tombstones are a matter of good solder paste application..  dont' underestimate solder paste application.. that is where 90%+ of your issues will start.
I did this 11 years ago.  I bought a used Philips CSM84 (made by Yamaha).  It has 3 nozzles, so can mount different size nozzles for different size range of parts.  Although vision is an available option on this model, my machine did not have it.  I never used CM's, I did it all by hand before.  I made my first board within 2 weeks of getting the machine in.  I hacked a big toaster oven with a ramp-and-soak thermocouple controller to do the reflow profile.

I have done close to 2000 boards on this system, now, and have had, maybe TWO real tombstones!  I have had a few "head in pillow" defects where the paste never joined to the component.  But, that is also fairly rare.

I do not teach the assembly, I get the placement file out of my CAD system and convert it to the machine's native file format with a program I wrote in C.  I only teach non-standard pick-up locations, like from a waffle tray.

I do look at these Chinese machines, and the open PnP project, but it seems they just are not up to the capabilities of the commercial machines (yet).  My very old (1995-vintage) Philips has excellent recovery from a wide range of errors, and tries to keep on going even when things are going wrong.  I have only had to wipe the parts and paste off a few (less than 4) boards out of those nearly 2000 boards when things went seriously wrong.

Jon
 

Offline mrpackethead

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2825
  • Country: nz
  • D Size Cell
Re: Bringing PCB assembly in-house with Dima Optimat?
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2018, 10:15:39 pm »
I would suggest 1-2 weeks is very very optimistic.
For a known-working machine with dealer support it's probably quite doable if you don't have much else to do
Just make sure you have PLENTY  of spare parts and PCBs, and make more than you need to deliver soon

yes, maybe my expereince was tainted by buying some machines at Auction, with NO manuals,  and having to do it by just trying and learning!     Having someone to show you would dramatically improve things.
On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 

Offline jmelson

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1260
  • Country: us
Re: Bringing PCB assembly in-house with Dima Optimat?
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2018, 08:23:56 pm »

yes, maybe my expereince was tainted by buying some machines at Auction, with NO manuals,  and having to do it by just trying and learning!     Having someone to show you would dramatically improve things.
OHHH!  No, that would be HORRIBLE with the complexity of these machines and software.  I got some manuals with my machine, and later the previous owner found a bunch more manuals of different vintage.  I now have 3 different generations of manuals for my generic machine, and the quality is QUITE different.  Obviously, the first one is a pretty literal translation from the Japanese manual, the second is a modest clean-up, and the 3rd one is a total rewrite done by a native English speaker who was deeply experienced in the P&P world.  WOW, what a difference experience in both the language and the subject matter can make!

I would have NEVER gotten as conversant with the machine and especially the software without these manuals.  I still have run into really cryptic stuff, and even error messages that are NOT anywhere in the manuals, so I had to guess what the cause was.  But, nevertheless, the manuals made a steep learning curve possible.

Jon
 

Offline mrpackethead

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2825
  • Country: nz
  • D Size Cell
Re: Bringing PCB assembly in-house with Dima Optimat?
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2018, 09:27:12 pm »
Just for clarification, i had the 'user-manual' but not the programming manual for VIOS..  The Vios files are SPACE delimited, and its absolutely critical that everthign is perfect, or you get really weird errors!
On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 

Offline Styno

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 70
  • Country: nl
  • Gently fused by gravity
Re: Bringing PCB assembly in-house with Dima Optimat?
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2018, 10:57:38 pm »
I’ve received two board configuration files for the dima. One for a single board and one for a panel. Being text files, they look pretty self explanatory and mostly comma separated.

Exporting one board from CAD and then use the machine UI to convert it into a panel should be pretty easy as well. Looking good so far.
 

Offline mrpackethead

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2825
  • Country: nz
  • D Size Cell
Re: Bringing PCB assembly in-house with Dima Optimat?
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2018, 11:32:55 pm »
Attached is a VIOS config file.
On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 

Offline Styno

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 70
  • Country: nl
  • Gently fused by gravity
Re: Bringing PCB assembly in-house with Dima Optimat?
« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2018, 05:50:58 am »
Thanks, the ViOS format is way less readable and more complex than Dima’s. I’ll post one as well later.
 

Offline mrpackethead

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2825
  • Country: nz
  • D Size Cell
Re: Bringing PCB assembly in-house with Dima Optimat?
« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2018, 06:03:18 am »
The clever people will note that the vios file i provided does not carry all the specific data for each component ( which you could do ).   When i import the the file, i then do a 'match to component database' which then uses the parameters from teh database, rather than my own specific stuff.  Otherwise its just a bit hard.
On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 

Offline Styno

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 70
  • Country: nl
  • Gently fused by gravity
Re: Bringing PCB assembly in-house with Dima Optimat?
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2018, 07:39:46 pm »
Update. To use a fitting Dutch proverb: the bullet is through the church! Yep, that probably does not make a lot of sense to most of you but it means that the decision has been made to make the investment and upgrade to the IBL vapour phase oven. Can’t wait for the machines to arrive  :D
 

Offline RobK_NL

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 250
  • Country: nl
Re: Bringing PCB assembly in-house with Dima Optimat?
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2018, 09:01:04 pm »
"The die is cast"
Tell us what problem you want to solve, not what solution you're having problems with
 

Offline Styno

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 70
  • Country: nl
  • Gently fused by gravity
Re: Bringing PCB assembly in-house with Dima Optimat?
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2018, 06:17:56 pm »
At the last moment we received an offer to upgrade the VP oven to a much newer Asscon Quicky VP450 and management agreed.
Reasons to upgrade:
-much newer
-smaller footprint
-needs about 5kg Galden to work instead of 15kg.
-Galden-wise much more efficient (less loss per cycle)
-closed-loop cooling
-looks much better (yes that is somehow important  :palm: )

The hardware gets delivered in about two to three weeks so it’s time to cleanup shop and make sure enough electrical circuits are available. I guess the oven, compressor and PnP/stencil machine all need separate circuits.
 

Offline Styno

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 70
  • Country: nl
  • Gently fused by gravity
Re: Bringing PCB assembly in-house with Dima Optimat?
« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2018, 08:57:18 am »
We will need additional adapters for large reels (e.g. 330mm), anyone knows what those would cost approximately?
 

Offline RobK_NL

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 250
  • Country: nl
Re: Bringing PCB assembly in-house with Dima Optimat?
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2018, 09:35:17 am »
Styno,

Those adapters (p/n SMPM-5051) should cost less than a feeder, I think. It's only a steel plate with a bolt through it.

Peter-Paul should be able to tell you. There is also a company called TwenTech that seems to sell them.
Tell us what problem you want to solve, not what solution you're having problems with
 
The following users thanked this post: Styno

Offline mike_58

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 114
  • Country: 00
  • LEGO playground
Re: Bringing PCB assembly in-house with Dima Optimat?
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2018, 05:27:05 am »
Hi,

I came across this Guy- I would recommend this Co. from China if you ever need spare parts - they have a large old stock and plenty of used feeders for quite a good price:
Jacky Gao (Sales Manager)
sales@jmsaohar.cn
Shenzhen JM Saohar technology Co.,Ltd
Motink Technology Limited
http://www.smt2000.com/
Cellphone/Wechat: +86-18503055169
QQ: 55016787            Skype: tinkeijacky

Good luck!
Mike
 

Offline Styno

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 70
  • Country: nl
  • Gently fused by gravity
Re: Bringing PCB assembly in-house with Dima Optimat?
« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2018, 07:57:50 pm »
Today the machines were delivered and we spent a good deal of the day setting them up. Unfortunately some issues popped up.

Stencil printer is missing one of the two pcb transport belts. These are very thin so is easily overlooked I guess.
The PnP was probably setup while not level before transport so when we set it up level in the shop the pcb transport rails were slightly twisted which locked the axels. We noticed this only when we tried to load a pcb, it burned out the pcb belt drive motor.
Obviously the feeders are secondhand where some look brand new still while others have broken/incomplete spools, some have missing parts too.

So, I feel a bit ‘meh’ right now. Especialy the missing belt and broken/incomplete feeders make me feel that the delivery preparation was a bit sloppy. The supplier will be back in a few days with a new motor and fixed feeders. Hopefully, by then, we can get to acquint ourselves with the machines.

PS. Galden LS230 vapor stinks! I had not realised this, but even the tiny bit that escapes when you open the lid smells overwhelmingly nasty  :--
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 08:00:22 pm by Styno »
 

Offline mrpackethead

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2825
  • Country: nz
  • D Size Cell
Re: Bringing PCB assembly in-house with Dima Optimat?
« Reply #40 on: December 21, 2018, 08:06:13 am »
PS. Galden LS230 vapor stinks! I had not realised this, but even the tiny bit that escapes when you open the lid smells overwhelmingly nasty  :--

Is your machine clean, or is there lots of flux residue lying around inside it.    My machines dont' smell badly when clean and new galden. I'm sure its related to the flux.

On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 
The following users thanked this post: Styno

Offline Styno

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 70
  • Country: nl
  • Gently fused by gravity
Re: Bringing PCB assembly in-house with Dima Optimat?
« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2018, 12:28:25 pm »
Thanks for that. I really don't know if or what is wrong at this stage as I haven't read the manual yet, but I'm told there is a paper filter (like a really big coffee filter) for removing the flux.

The supplier assured me that there was enough fluid present but I have my doubts as the heating element at one point raises slightly above the Galden. But the machine is apparently content with the level.
 

Offline mrpackethead

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2825
  • Country: nz
  • D Size Cell
Re: Bringing PCB assembly in-house with Dima Optimat?
« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2018, 12:41:48 pm »
i filter my galden with coffee filters, and a funnel,  it gets rid of most of the crud.

I'm not familar with your machine, but with mine, i litterally only have about 5mm of galden in the bottom of the tank.   A little bit makes a LOT of vapour.

Something to keep it mind, it appears to be quite hydroscopic, and on teh first heat cycle it can create 'clouds'. Dont' be tricked into thinking that its galden, it often is just steam.



On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 

Offline Styno

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 70
  • Country: nl
  • Gently fused by gravity
Re: Bringing PCB assembly in-house with Dima Optimat?
« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2018, 06:12:40 pm »
I'll ask the seller if the Galden is newly added, if the VP machine has been cleaned and/or if the filter has been replaced. Thanks.

Today, I played a bit with the P&P and the feeders. The feeders have really simple mechanics and it took less than 5 minutes to figure out how they operate and then to load the first reel. It seems we will be able to run through our stock of cut-tape first without losing any components using only an SMT cover tape leader like this.
 

Offline jmelson

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1260
  • Country: us
Re: Bringing PCB assembly in-house with Dima Optimat?
« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2018, 08:15:05 pm »
I'll ask the seller if the Galden is newly added, if the VP machine has been cleaned and/or if the filter has been replaced. Thanks.

Today, I played a bit with the P&P and the feeders. The feeders have really simple mechanics and it took less than 5 minutes to figure out how they operate and then to load the first reel. It seems we will be able to run through our stock of cut-tape first without losing any components using only an SMT cover tape leader like this.
I just splice the cover tape with masking tape, works very well.  I have yards of old cover tape laying around.  I don't worry over losing 2 SMT resistors when starting with cut tape.  Resistors and caps are so cheap, I generally buy a whole reel of almost anything passive.  For the ICs, I can take out two at the beginning of the tape, and then put them back in near the end so I can use all parts.  I almost always buy a few extra so I can do repairs and to cover for parts dropped by the machine (relatively rare, but it happens once in a while.)

Jon
 

Offline Styno

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 70
  • Country: nl
  • Gently fused by gravity
Re: Bringing PCB assembly in-house with Dima Optimat?
« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2018, 09:05:44 pm »
I realised too late that spent cover tape could be useful for use in the feeders so I didn’t instruct my collueges to save some. Fortunately those extenders are pretty cheap.
 

Offline Styno

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 70
  • Country: nl
  • Gently fused by gravity
Re: Bringing PCB assembly in-house with Dima Optimat?
« Reply #46 on: January 01, 2019, 05:55:49 pm »
According to the manual I need some tools to calibrate the p&p machine, most notably an aluminium plate covered with (double cross) fiducials that needs to be placed on the pcb conveyor and some smaller plates with one fiducial or small text that need to be mounted on the nozzle. The big plate is for getting info on x/y inaccuracies while the smaller are for calibrating the component camera.

Unfortunately these did not come with the machine. Does anyone have these or photo’s/drawings of them? I’m also interested in the service manual.
 

Offline mrpackethead

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2825
  • Country: nz
  • D Size Cell
Re: Bringing PCB assembly in-house with Dima Optimat?
« Reply #47 on: January 01, 2019, 07:47:37 pm »
According to the manual I need some tools to calibrate the p&p machine, most notably an aluminium plate covered with (double cross) fiducials that needs to be placed on the pcb conveyor and some smaller plates with one fiducial or small text that need to be mounted on the nozzle. The big plate is for getting info on x/y inaccuracies while the smaller are for calibrating the component camera.

Unfortunately these did not come with the machine. Does anyone have these or photo’s/drawings of them? I’m also interested in the service manual.

The yamaha machines, use a special pcb for this task, but i could not get one, so i had one made. ( single sided  ).   You might need to do something similar?  Its probably cheaper and easier than using an aluminu plate>
On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 

Offline Styno

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 70
  • Country: nl
  • Gently fused by gravity
Re: Bringing PCB assembly in-house with Dima Optimat?
« Reply #48 on: January 02, 2019, 08:36:42 am »
Creating a pcb was indeed on my mind but I'm guessing the machine has some hardcoded(?) info on the amount and spacing of the fiducials it expects on that pcb/plate?

From the Calibration Manual Ver 2.50 Chapter 2.3.6:
Quote
Now that the main machine deficiencies are known, the next step is to make a map of the machine co-ordinates. By measuring each spot in the work area, a table can be build in which all machine co-ordinates are related to a physical spot in the work area. In this way the Optimat software van compensate for (mechanical) flaws and inacuracies in the positioning system. To accomodate this, you should used the aluminium calibration plate which is covered with fiducials.

If this option is selected the user is requested to place the correction plate (see Appendix B) on the run-in side of the transport. The plate will be transported into the work area. The user first has to position the crosshair over the bottom left fiducial and over the bottom right fiducial of the correction plate. These two measurements determine the angle under which the plate is loaded. Now the crosses on the plate will be measured. This will take approximately a half hour. The measurement can be stopped by pressing the ESC key.

Finally, the user is asked whether the new correction data must be stored (in  the file Correct.dat). Previous correction data will be renamed to Cor_old.dat.
 

Online SMTech

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 289
  • Country: gb
Re: Bringing PCB assembly in-house with Dima Optimat?
« Reply #49 on: January 02, 2019, 09:12:38 am »
It would indeed almost certainly be hardcoded grid of fiducials it was expecting, I would expect most people who had an Optimat to not own a calibration plate. Instead that would be something Dima/their local service representative would have and would use as part of every regular service. Companies that have lots of machines and do more of the mechanical support themselves might go so far as to have one but I'm not sure there were many/any people who had lots of Optimats. Unless you can either get a proper drawing of one or the real thing, the best bet might be to leave well alone.

Our Essemtec machine has what seems like a similar calibration routine. A large glass/ceramic plate covered in fiducials is used in conjunction with 2 smaller plates the machine picks up and moves around the large plate. The smaller plates came with the machine (so we can lose them perhaps) & the large glass/ceramic one is owned by the service engineer. I'm not sure what Dima were like but Essemtec are decidedly not keen on end users carrying out much more than basic cleaning type maintenance on the easily accessible parts and so are not that keen on users owning things like calibration kit.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf