Cheap non-Chinese source for 4 layer PCB manufacturing?

[Rat_Patrol]

Looking for a source outside of China for the manfuacturing of our PCBs that is still "cheap". What we have done in China costs us $20 per board delivered, but a US source would be around $300 per board delivered. We just can't pay that much extra for the same thing.

Normally we run around 150mmx200mm 4 layer PCBs. We tend to order in smaller quantities as most of what I do is custom or otherwise low production volume.

Any favorite sources?

[m98]

What's wrong with Chinese manufacturers? Too expensive?
Seriously, that trend has to stop somewhere. I don't want to see kids in Bangladesch etching PCBs with bare hands in corrosive industrial wastewater from the textile industry...

[Rat_Patrol]

I'm willing to pay a bit more than China production prices.

I'm looking to see if there is better quality at a bit higher prices, but not US production prices.

[forrestc]

What's wrong with Chinese manufacturers? Too expensive?
Seriously, that trend has to stop somewhere. I don't want to see kids in Bangladesch etching PCBs with bare hands in corrosive industrial wastewater from the textile industry...

There was a recent similar thread that ended up in bans and a not very nice back and forth.

Let me see if I can head this off:

The US government has seen fit to declare a trade war on China.   Because of the rhetoric around said trade war, many of us who manufacture/assemble in the US and sell primarily to the US market find ourselves in the unfortunate predicament that sourcing products from China is becoming a business liability with associated risks.   This results in many of us wanting to explore lower-risk options in other markets. 

The last thread devolved into political bickering.   Which ended up in at least one ban and a lot of warnings, and the original poster not getting an answer to their question.   Let's try not to go down that path.

I too would like to know the answer that the original poster posed, rephrased:  Other than sources in China what options exist for reasonably priced PCB manufacturing?   For me it's typically in the 100-500 boards category and 2 or 4 (with an occasional 6) layers.  Not sure about the original poster's quantities.

[donotdespisethesnake]

Lol, politics. 

I thought everyone had heard of https://pcbshopper.com/ Choices are basically China or expensive.

[48X24X48X]

Silvercircuits from Malaysia but not cheap.
No, I'm not associated with them.

[forrestc]

Lol, politics. 

I thought everyone had heard of https://pcbshopper.com/ Choices are basically China or expensive.

I have a feeling that the PCB fabricators we are looking for are not on pcbshopper.   I suspect the ones we're looking for are relatively old-school, where you email a zipped copy of the gerbers to a person and they reply with a quote.   A lot of PCB manufacturers don't have a slick orderable front end or well-defined prices which is what pcbshopper pretty much requires to work.

The challenge is finding them.  If you look at a list of the top manufacturers you'll find the companies which sell to Apple and Samsung and the like where an order for a few hundred isn't going to excite them.   But there have to be some smaller ones out there, the question being whether any exist at a price that one would want to buy from.  I'm not disagreeing with your sentiment at all - that's been my experience as well (China or Expensive), but one would think that Tiawan or South Korea or Japan would have something less expensive than is available in the USA (while still likely being more expensive than a Chinese sourced PCB).

[all_repair]

If such PCB houses still around, how do you think they can survive when they can't compete with the China PCB houses with their old facilities.  There is a way for them to keep serving their established clients and possibly those who cannot go direct to China PCB houses, that is to take the order and feed to China PCB houses, do the customer service and make the fat margin in between.  I am suspecting the old PCB house I used to use here is surviving this way.

[mikeselectricstuff]

What's wrong with Chinese manufacturers?

They are in the middle of a 2-week holiday right now - I have 2 projects on hold because of Chinese New Year. Customer's schedule not mine - they are currently deciding if they want to pay £500-600 for some flex prototypes that would be £100 from China. They're definitely going to wait on the other project which will be about £1000 from PCBway.

[nardev]

Try contacting this Bosnian company: https://pcb.ba/Home/PCB

They also have PCBa but the setup is like 300 EUR or something like that + per component etc.


p.s. I'm pretty sure you can negotiate price down from the first offer you get.

[coppice]

but one would think that Tiawan or South Korea or Japan would have something less expensive than is available in the USA (while still likely being more expensive than a Chinese sourced PCB).

Taiwan, South Korea and Japan moved all their low cost manufacture to China long ago. Now rising costs in China mean they've moved a lot of the simplest assembly work to Vietnam, Indonesia and other cheaper countries. Why would high cost countries like Taiwan, South Korea or Japan be able to offer a substantially cheaper service than the US, anyway? The only way China can compete with Vietnam is through high levels of automation, and a highly skilled, but not overly expensive, workforce.

[nardev]

Just checked with the Bosnian manufacturer. Looks pretty ok.

I didn't ask for 4 layer board but it looks like it's fairly proportional as other manufacturers are. So here is the example:

60 EUR Fee for a project start +
60 EUR per panel of size 305x460mm where 20mm padding is for each side.

I think that some significant number of panels can be more affordable. Also, they do all the paneling or what ever else you might need.

Also, another standard size of a panel is 530x410mm, price is slightly higher.

They don't do less than one panel.

Contact them if you need more info: https://pcb.ba/Home/PCB

p.s. They don't play with copper thickness, what you agree you get!

[Weston]

I find it encouraging that others are also looking to alternative sourcing. You better find an answer quickly though before the nationalist get all worked up   

I have not gotten to try them yet, but one of the better solutions that was recommended to me last time this conversation happened was Circuit Labs  / PCB Zone in New Zealand http://pcbzone.net/ . It seems like their price calculator breaks on larger boards though.

Other than that, there are some South Korean PCB fabs that only have Korean websites: https://www.hsdgt.com/

Aisler is similar to OSHPark but with a cheaper pricing structure. They seems to have better fabs for the European market though and are still figuring out the USA side (a few months ago the price calculator was broken for 4L PCBs)  https://aisler.net/

[asmi]

If such PCB houses still around, how do you think they can survive when they can't compete with the China PCB houses with their old facilities.

Simple - they pray on those unfortunate enough to have to deal with ITAR and other export shenanigans. Lack of online quote system is a feature and not an oversight - their business model is to extract as much money as possible from customers who have no choice, as opposed to making process more streamlined and efficient. This is also why they don't really feel any need to optimize their process to become more competitive. The usual excuse they come up with - high workforce cost - is known to be BS to anyone who ever been at (or at least seen videos of) modern PCB factory with high level of automation. And this is a real reason why the likes of jlcpcb are so competitive - they've built a very streamlined and efficient process from order to shipping, which is also complimented by extremely efficient logistics for both sourcing materials as well as shipping finished products.
But I think they are wrong, and sooner or later someone in US will realize that the key to cost reduction is not outsourcing, but automation. This is going to come with some compromises for customers - like one-way street for ordering ("once you press this button, the order goes into the pipeline and can not be changed under any circumstances") , or lack of 24/7 customer service - but they will be more than made up for with the lower price.

[forrestc]

But I think they are wrong, and sooner or later someone in US will realize that the key to cost reduction is not outsourcing, but automation. This is going to come with some compromises for customers - like one-way street for ordering ("once you press this button, the order goes into the pipeline and can not be changed under any circumstances") , or lack of 24/7 customer service - but they will be more than made up for with the lower price.

Having had a discussion with a couple of PCB manufacturers in the US over the years, a big chunk of the challenge in the US is not labor but draconian EPA (environmental) rules about the waste products and the expense of disposal.   The EPA has progressed in the US to the point where it considers things that no sane person would consider hazardous waste to be hazardous waste.  As a result, a large part of the cost of manufacturing PCB's in the US is the expense of disposing of these 'hazardous' materials. 

I'm sure that the PCB manufacturing in China is the other extreme - that pollution is generally not really thought about and things a sane person thinks should be treated in some way are just dumped in the environment.   I'd rather pick somewhere in the middle.

[Rat_Patrol]

Again with Wurth, what cost me $20/piece from China is $340/piece from Wurth.


Crazy how I can't find a middle ground anywhere.

[donotdespisethesnake]

Crazy how I can't find a middle ground anywhere.

As a business, you either race to the bottom, or move to the premium end. Stay in the middle and get crushed by both sides. So your finding does not surprise me.

[rea5245]

As a business, you either race to the bottom, or move to the premium end. Stay in the middle and get crushed by both sides. So your finding does not surprise me.

I don't think so. Cars, restaurants, clothes, housing, furniture, electronic gadgets - basically everything - have dirt cheap options, premium options, and mid-range options all co-existing successfully.

- Bob

[rx8pilot]

As a business, you either race to the bottom, or move to the premium end. Stay in the middle and get crushed by both sides. So your finding does not surprise me.

I let that happen to my own business - trying to hold on to the middle ground too long. I had to make a choice to buy PCB's and other parts from China for <10% the cost of the USA options.

While I stood firm paying the big bucks for USA parts, my competition was enjoying the ultra-cheap Chinese costs and the middle-ground customers did not care. Lesson learned the hard way.

I have been searching for non-Chinese PCB manufacturers for a long time and not found anything in the middle. Not even close. PCB's are either shockingly cheap or shockingly expensive as far as I can tell.

[rea5245]

I let that happen to my own business - trying to hold on to the middle ground too long.

If you're going to go middle-ground or premium, your product needs to be somehow better than the dirt-cheap products. With PCBs, however, there's no significant difference between what you get from cheap Chinese factories vs. expensive US/European factories. At least for most products. Perhaps for harsh environments, the expensive PCBs survive better, but that's not an issue for most things.

So the problem comes when someone tries to sell a commodity at a premium price. (My brother, who was a business major, pointed out to me once that Frank Purdue, of Purdue chicken fame, managed to take a commodity product and somehow sell it as a premium product. But it's rare that someone can pull that off.)

- Bob

[olkipukki]

Again with Wurth, what cost me $20/piece from China is $340/piece from Wurth.

Did you try to find out why the difference so high?

Just drop an email / contact support and ask for explanation nicely, they might give you a hit where their calculator became crazy.

P.S.
Not related to above, but some house quote 1000% mark up to change color from green to red 

[coppice]

Not related to above, but some house quote 1000% mark up to change color from green to red 

For prototyping prices go all over the place when you want anything but the commonest form, but colour makes little difference to the price for volume orders - assuming you want a colour they deal with.

[olkipukki]

I suspect the ones we're looking for are relatively old-school, where you email a zipped copy of the gerbers to a person and they reply with a quote. 

Actually, I found this is one of most efficient way to do!

I would say as self pay kiosk vs concierge service 

You don't waste your time to fill in one hundred and one fields here and there across webpages, dealing with some non-sense UI and many keyboard/mouse  clicks.

You just send a spec (that can be prep or auto generated on your side  in advance ) and attach gerbers, that's all.
If a house offers APIs, much better - fully integrate in your pipeline, but I don't come across it yet (somebody used jlcpcb api?)


Of course, you should have strong feeling in an expecting pricing.

[olkipukki]

For prototyping prices go all over the place when you want anything but the commonest form, but colour makes little difference to the price for volume orders - assuming you want a colour they deal with.

Ehhh... that's a tricky question what is "volume" for a house.

Do you think they will happy to clean these for free if somebody want "non standard" colour?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljOoGyCso8s&feature=youtu.be&t=915

[all_repair]

As a business, you either race to the bottom, or move to the premium end. Stay in the middle and get crushed by both sides. So your finding does not surprise me.

I don't think so. Cars, restaurants, clothes, housing, furniture, electronic gadgets - basically everything - have dirt cheap options, premium options, and mid-range options all co-existing successfully.

That "premium" can exist due to hollow perception and good feeling of the end user.  For components that people cannot see nor feel, and only functionality matters then that premium is difficult to last.   

[thm_w]

Having had a discussion with a couple of PCB manufacturers in the US over the years, a big chunk of the challenge in the US is not labor but draconian EPA (environmental) rules about the waste products and the expense of disposal.   The EPA has progressed in the US to the point where it considers things that no sane person would consider hazardous waste to be hazardous waste.  As a result, a large part of the cost of manufacturing PCB's in the US is the expense of disposing of these 'hazardous' materials. 

I'm sure that the PCB manufacturing in China is the other extreme - that pollution is generally not really thought about and things a sane person thinks should be treated in some way are just dumped in the environment.   I'd rather pick somewhere in the middle.

I would think a large plant like JLC is properly treating their wastewater, and is being audited by the government. Not going to be as strict as some places in the US, but, hopefully its a lot better than Indonesia:



Large textile plants dumping toxic chemical waste straight into the river.

[Rat_Patrol]

Just got back a quote from these folks in South Korea:

http://quickturnpcb.co.kr/

They are almost the exact same price or my needs (150mmx200mm, 2oz inner copper, 2.5 ounce outer copper) as PCBWay (About $20 each), so long as I order 20 minimum.

[newbie666]

I've worked with these guys before, top notch quality of PCBs and pricing is decent (there's an online calculator)
https://tspcb.pl/de/prototypen-tska/ausfuhrung-technologie

[Gandalf_Sr]

I've used PCBWay before and had reasonable results, on a few occasions the registration and quality of the silk screen component marking has been marginal but for prototypes that's fine.

I have 2 sets of 2-sided bare PCB prototypes out to JLC PCB right now (first time I've tried them) and that order seems to have got stuck in the CNY+Coronovirus perfect storm, they been in process now for over a week and are only 83% done; not a complaint, just an observation.

Once I've proved a design out, I work with a local CM such as Saline Lectronics for runs in the 1,000s.

As folks here are observing, 5 bare PCBs for $5 total in China vs $20 each in the USA.

[Rat_Patrol]

I've Placed an order from quickturnpcb out of South Korea.

I got back a very reasonable quote from TS PCB out of Germany, but after I already placed an order with quickturnpcb. They have a significant setup fee of 115 EU, but that is a one time, and not applied for repeat identical PCB orders, but their prices are very reasonable, especially with 20 day lead times and larger orders (50+). I do believe I will give them a try when I'm off of prototypes. For an order of 20 boards, I was looking at 577 EU plus shipping, but that is a 150x200mm board, 4 layer, 2oz copper on all layers. Even PCBWay is $23/board.

Nice bonus is that TS PCB can apparently do sequential numbering on the silkscreen. This would save us having to apply Kapton stickers, and $500 to buy a spool of customized kapton stickers.

Anybody aware of any US manufactured PCBs that can compete on that price?

[Rat_Patrol]

I've used PCBWay before and had reasonable results, on a few occasions the registration and quality of the silk screen component marking has been marginal but for prototypes that's fine.

PCBWay is my normal go-to for prototype boards. I've noticed that the solder mask is not particularly durable, and frequently small areas (such as between SMD pads) will come off during re-work. Its OK for prototyping, but not ideal for final products.

[AndyC_772]

Don't mind me, I'm just subscribing to this thread because I'd like the same thing... somewhere where I can pay "a bit" more than I'd have to pay one of the myriad super-cheap Chinese fabs, and get a better level of quality and service.

I too have found that "a bit" usually equates to "add a zero", and sorry, no, that's never going to happen without compelling commercial justification.

[exmadscientist]

Just got back a quote from these folks in South Korea:

http://quickturnpcb.co.kr/

They are almost the exact same price or my needs (150mmx200mm, 2oz inner copper, 2.5 ounce outer copper) as PCBWay (About $20 each), so long as I order 20 minimum.

For what it's worth, we love these guys for prototype runs. The price is a bit above China, but the quality is -- literally -- as good as anything I've ever seen. They have caught mistakes in submitted gerbers, too... which Very Very Expensive US fabs have not. Their 24 hour expedite is expensive, sure, but it's 24 hour expedite that delivers on time, so what do you expect?

The other company who's good for prototypes is PCBZone/Circuit Specialists out of NZ. If you need 1 or 2 boards, they're usually cheaper than U&I; at 3+, U&I will usually win. Their quality is also excellent and their expedite is similar.

We found both companies through PCBshopper and I'd trust either one with full production of any design within their spec.

[Rat_Patrol]

Just got back a quote from these folks in South Korea:

http://quickturnpcb.co.kr/

They are almost the exact same price or my needs (150mmx200mm, 2oz inner copper, 2.5 ounce outer copper) as PCBWay (About $20 each), so long as I order 20 minimum.

For what it's worth, we love these guys for prototype runs. The price is a bit above China, but the quality is -- literally -- as good as anything I've ever seen. They have caught mistakes in submitted gerbers, too... which Very Very Expensive US fabs have not. Their 24 hour expedite is expensive, sure, but it's 24 hour expedite that delivers on time, so what do you expect?

The other company who's good for prototypes is PCBZone/Circuit Specialists out of NZ. If you need 1 or 2 boards, they're usually cheaper than U&I; at 3+, U&I will usually win. Their quality is also excellent and their expedite is similar.

We found both companies through PCBshopper and I'd trust either one with full production of any design within their spec.

Its funny you say they caught errors, because they just caught an error on my prototype! One of my vias was as a pad, so the trace on I2 went nowhere instead of using a via to get back to C1. That was a $500 mistake on my end (cost of my batch of boards, which would have been worthless), and we would have been going in circles for who knows how long before figuring it out. That alone has earned more business from me!

[EEVblog]

How about New Zealand?
https://www.pcbzone.net/
http://www.circuitlabs.co.nz/

[JPortici]

What can you tell me about Aisler in europe? I'm about to hit buy (90 euro, 3pcs instead of 200 euro, 2pcs which is what i was quoted everywhere else)
I've only seen a few reviews, mixed results. Anytime they had problems the boards were remanufactured, but since it takes 8 working days i may just wait for the 17th hoping that chinese fabs will not push back further

[doppelgrau]

Ordered twice from aisler, no problems.
Will do it again for prototypes, if the 4 layer stacking fits the application (currently only 18um on the outer layer for 4 layer PCBs).

[wraper]

Ordered twice from aisler, no problems.
Will do it again for prototypes, if the 4 layer stacking fits the application (currently only 18um on the outer layer for 4 layer PCBs).

IMHO it's typo. Claiming 35u inner layer and 18u outer is a sort of nonsense. Initially both inner and outer should be 18u with outer layers having plated copper which increases copper thickness to 35u. Also don't bother with their Gerber naming instructions. It seems to do nothing to automatic layer recognition, I wasted half a day trying to feed files according to their tutorial to only get them recognized wrong for most of my designs. Change file extensions to what Seed studio/China services use (.GBO, .GTO, etc) and it recognizes everything correctly.

[doppelgrau]

The 18um are no typos. Mentioned in too many places, including a german forum, where "Felix" said they are considering changing the stackup:

https://aisler.net/help/design-rules-and-specifications/specifications
https://aisler.net/help/design-rules-and-specifications/4-layer-pcb-stackup
https://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/483895#6075656

[GerardG]

Most boards I have done for automotive had 1oz (35) inner layers and 0.5oz(18)+plating outer layers. (35µm inner and outer)

That said, if traces get smaller we also used 12, 9 or 5µm start copper.

It depends on the type of board you want to build.  Thinner copper will help on etching characteristics.
Best practice is to check what type of boards a manufacturer is already producing.

[nardev]

So far i haven't find as cheap in Europe as this one in Bosnia that i mentioned. I just don't like that 60EUR setup fee but as i see, others are even more expensive.
https://pcb.ba/Home/PCB

Having this prices in mind, i just can't understand how pcbway and jlcpcb make it.

[Gandalf_Sr]

...Having this prices in mind, i just can't understand how pcbway and jlcpcb make it.

I agree, they can't be paying their workers much   but the video views of their factories look like they are enormous.

Here's an update of my prototype PCB order crawling through JLCPCB during the CNY + Coronovirus situation. My order was placed Jan 23, production started Jan 24 but wasn't finished until Feb 1 (8 days later) and, ever since then, the DHL tracking number against my order indicates that it hasn't been given to DHL yet (5 days and counting).

If the boards are OK when (if) they arrive, I will try JLCPCB again as the Coronavirus caused a delay of people coming back to work from the CNY of at least a week (CN government mandated that) plus all the problems around travel restrictions and airlines not flying to/from China; JLPCB and DHL must be swamped assuming they are even back up to full staffing levels.

I heard yesterday on National Public Radio that most airlines get twice as much money from carrying freight in their cargo hold as they do flying first class passengers; the program also said that was often "2 semi-truck full(s) of cargo" on a typical international flight.

[Koen]

There's this interesting page up since January 15 :

https://support.jlcpcb.com/article/73-jlcpcb-spring-festival-holiday-schedule

where you can read things like :

"Meanwhile, international logistics like DHL service will temporarily be suspended till February 6 (officially resume on February 10)."

and stop speculating.

[Gandalf_Sr]

There's this interesting page up since January 15 :

https://support.jlcpcb.com/article/73-jlcpcb-spring-festival-holiday-schedule

where you can read things like :

"Meanwhile, international logistics like DHL service will temporarily be suspended till February 6 (officially resume on February 10)."

and stop speculating.

I missed that, thanks

[EDIT] The DHL tracking has just changed to status "Shipment Picked Up" so hopefully, things are starting to move again.

[Weston]

Does anyone have info solder mask tolerances for PCBZone? There is nothing on their website about it. I have been wanting to try them but I have a solder mask defined footprint I don't want messed up.

I have emailed them twice now about this and gotten no reply. The only thing I can think of is that they filter out EDU emails or have an aggressive spam filter.

[Rat_Patrol]

Got my tracking info from quickturnpcb.

Coming in hot! Shipped today, scheduled for delivery tomorrow.

Of course its coming FedEx, so who really knows when it will show up 

[Rat_Patrol]

They arrived this morning!

I only quickly glanced at them, the whole stack is going into the reflow oven to bake for the rest of the day. I want to ramp up the temp slowly (only 45c to start) up to about 100c in a few hours, leave it there for a few hours so it penetrates the whole stack, then let them cool down.

[jake111]

China also has EPA, just with more sense.
Basically, you have to precipitate all heavy metal ions form etching, and make sure your PH is adjusted to 7, and no VOC other than common non toxic exceptions like alcohol, is drained.
Other than that, there's no stupid rules such as limiting sodium ion.
Also, OSHA in China is not governed by EPA, but by DOL, which has less power. Thus, worker protection is also less stringent in China, which greatly increased productivity per worker.

Single most hilarious post I've read online.  However, I took it as a broad statement, applying to all of china, and I assume you are speaking of just the PCB manufacturer(s) you are familiar with in your locale.

Broadly speaking, china is the dirtiest country I've ever visited.  They have established themselves as leaders in modern CFC-11 emissions, after developed countries banned them decades ago for the obvious reasons.  Let's not even get into plastics... batteries... etc...

Sorry, I had to point it out.  Taken broadly, it's a funny statement 

[coppice]

Broadly speaking, china is the dirtiest country I've ever visited.

You need to get out more.

[Simon]

Can we stay off the politics please.

[Georg - PY5ZSE]

To come back to the original question, try this:

www.aetzwerk.de

German company, good quality, friendly people. 150x200, 4 layers, @50 pieces (that's the max the online calculator handles) € 13,20 a piece. 3 prototypes € 87 each.

For prototypes significantly more expensive than the Chinese, in small batch production IMHO reasonable.

[Koen]

Any experiences in India ? Thank you

[Simon]

I sued Aisler although their website is a nightmare and the options very limited. I hope they grow up soon and stop using that stupid fisher price website, that calls thing "repositories"..... The next time i order i will send them the files manually for a proper quote alonf with specific stencils required and a single shipping cost. I just ordered 3 boards at work and we paid 15 euros shipping 3 times because the site is too stupid to have a proper cart. Won't be doing that again, but they are cheap and they make in Germany.

[thinkfat]

I sued Aisler although their website is a nightmare and the options very limited. I hope they grow up soon and stop using that stupid fisher price website, that calls thing "repositories"..... The next time i order i will send them the files manually for a proper quote alonf with specific stencils required and a single shipping cost. I just ordered 3 boards at work and we paid 15 euros shipping 3 times because the site is too stupid to have a proper cart. Won't be doing that again, but they are cheap and they make in Germany.

Eh? What happened to https://aisler.net/help/shipping/ordering-more-than-project ? Not applicable?

[Simon]

Well I am not sure this actually worked. It's too airy fairy. On the understanding tat they are cheap anyway a senior colleague was happy to make triple payments. i am pretty sure we paid shipping multiple times but can only confirm once we get the invoices. The cart for each order showed shipping.

[ebastler]

I sued Aisler although their website is a nightmare

That's overreacting even if the website is really bad, I'd say. 

[Simon]

I sued Aisler although their website is a nightmare

That's overreacting even if the website is really bad, I'd say. 

No, only my poor motor skills on a keyboard overreacted. Well spotted 😂

[Weston]

I got some boards from Pcbzone yesterday. The look great and came really fast and were only a bit more than the Chinese fabs, probably the same price if you want the same lead time. The stencil I got from them is pretty meh though. Its not flat and the back side has a number of small beads of metal stuck on it, which I assume are from the laser cutting process. Given that OSHStencil costs less than their stencil service and ships quickly I think I will avoid their stencil service in the future.

My biggest complaint about Pcbzone is that I emailed them three times asking about solder mask tolerance and never got a response. Perhaps I need to try the Circuit Lab email addresses. I totally plan on using them in the future.

I have some PCBs + Stencils coming from Aisler on Tuesday, I will have to update with how they come out. I do agree though, their website is ass.

[Simon]

The boards I got look ok but not used them yet. The stencils seem to have a fixed amount of margin to the PCB edge. Obviously you don't get to chose the thickness. The problem I have which is why next time they will take my files by email and quote manually or I go elsewhere is that I am having my workplace make me a pasting jig that will require 4mm holes every 10mm to engage in the clamp. The easiest thing to do is to put those clamp holes in the PCB design but this can cause confusion and as i can't seperately upload a file for the stencil I don't know what else to do. PCB train allows a separate stencil file as the stencil order is separate so i could probably export to DXF and use 3D CAD to put the holes on and send them a DXF file.

[Rat_Patrol]

Got some stencils in from PCBWay from Shenzen China.

I don't need them right now, so I'll just let the box sit outside...

[JPortici]

Pulled the trigger on Aisler. Really weird website.
In any case, if the boards turns out okay i think i'll switch to them for future orders. I used elecrow/jlc/allpcb in the past a lot, but almost always for prototypes, so i just needed a couple of PCBs, not 5 or 10.
And for two layer boards, once you factor in shipping via DHL and possible import tax with associated extortion fee by the courier, price is nearly the same (plus or minus some cents)

[Simon]

Aisler are cheaper and faster. I have been exchanging emails with Felix and he says they will redesign the website. They are so cheap that for work where it's not my money I don't care about repeat 15 EUR shipping costs. For me personally i will use free shipping.

My only concern is that I am getting a stencil printer made at work that will need a series of holes each side of the stencil. With Aisler I can only use the main board data for the stencil so will put the holes in my design as a last act with a text note that they are for the stencil and let them figure it out.

[thinkfat]

I suspect Aisler are a bit overwhelmed by the attention they're getting now. If you look at their website and mission statement, they were targetting small orders from the hobbyist and Open Hardware camp. They even go as far as adding a small donation to KiCAD to your bill if you upload a KiCAD file instead of Gerbers. Which is fine for me, I use KiCAD and like to support them. Of course you can always erase that line from the bill before ordering.

I sure hope they don't collapse and up their offering based on the feedback they're getting now. It's really useful to have these non-Asian manufacturers around.

[Simon]

Yes indeed. My orders have been for prototypes and one offs but i still want a stencil that I can actually use. I am considering the component supply service for work where again even if more expensive not my money and would save a lot of time (money) trying to get parts out of the likes of RS.

I particularly like the donate to kicad option and always use it for work as well. I wish they would make the donation have optional higher amounts perhaps calculated on order value. Work will never pay for something they don't have to and i chose to use kicad but this way every time we design something with KiCad they get something out of work.

[mxhll]

Yes I think Aisler is having some problems with the high number of orders now that chinese production is slowed down.

They state 2 days of leadtime for basic pcbs on their website, but they take more like 5 days.
But I'm very grateful that someone is trying to compete with cheap chinese pcb pools. And the quality seems to be fine aswell.

[thinkfat]

Yes I think Aisler is having some problems with the high number of orders now that chinese production is slowed down.

They state 2 days of leadtime for basic pcbs on their website, but they take more like 5 days.
But I'm very grateful that someone is trying to compete with cheap chinese pcb pools. And the quality seems to be fine aswell.

2 days is only for the "Blitz" queue. The "snail" (they call it HD) queue takes 5 days.

[mxhll]

Sure, I know. My latest order has just been sent, it took 4 business days. Thats still faster than JLC+Express shipping has been for me (last year)

[Gandalf_Sr]

Sure, I know. My latest order has just been sent, it took 4 business days. Thats still faster than JLC+Express shipping has been for me (last year)

I've just received an order from JLCPCB and they were fast in manufacture plus DHL got the PCBs to me in record time.  My only gripe with JLC is that their cheap 2-layer PCBs sometimes have splodgy silk screen; this time I specified ENIG on 2 and 4 layers PCBs (together in the same order) and I got really nice results with good silk screen too on both sets.

Seems to me like JLC is back up and running.

[coppice]

Overall I'm pretty happy with JLC, rest of their stupidly inaccurate outline routing. They are okay buying expensive 3.5mil lithography and etching machines, yet they save pennies on a routing mill .

It might just be a timing thing. Only a fool would change their entire system in one go. The rational change a section, stabilise it, and then move on.

[Weston]

I don't know if they are still open due to coronavirus, but my personal best for PCB order time was from PCBZone. Really high quality PCBs too.

I don't see why anyone would consider JLC a high quality manufacture. Sure they can down to 3.5/3.5 but their solder mask processing sucks and they non-consensually modify your stencil apertures without warning. I have had them remove soldermask slivers that meet the fab rules between pads on solder mask defined footprints before, making the PCBs almost useless.

[TheHolyHorse]

I've used Aisler as well a few times with zero issues, I think they might be the best option in Europe at least cheapest.

They are a little more expensive than JLC but with DHL shipping and all the import duties the price ends up being about the same.
Also I'd rather pay a bit more to not buy it in China, everything is already made there. We don't have to give them everything.

[Reckless]

I want to move away from jlcpcb.  They have been way too unpredictable lately so I hope Aisler can replace them for me.  I don't mind paying 10% more for faster service.  Has anyone used them for stencils?  I tried jlcpcb and their stencils were crap. 

I tried uploading my file on their website and it continually says "Preparing your final production data..." and never does anything.  I tried emailing them but haven't heard a response.  How long do they normally take to respond? 

[Weston]

The Aisler USA service is different than the European service. It also takes longer. I was satisfied with the quality of the PCBs and stencils I got (the olive green soldermask is pretty interesting), but the order flow is pretty rough. Hopefully it will get better in the future.

I would argue that right now PCBZone is the best source for relatively low cost and quick / high quality PCBs fabricated outsize of China.

[Reckless]

See messages from pcbzone website:
"COVID-19 UPDATE - We will be accepting work for Government, Education and Research and COVID19 related products ONLY. DON'T SUBMIT AN ORDER UNTIL YOU HAVE EMAILED US TO CHECK. getboards@pcbzone.net"

They are not quoting prices currently. 

[Ribster]

Has anyone used them for stencils?  I tried jlcpcb and their stencils were crap. 

Can you elaborate ? My experience is vastly different, so i'm interested into how you experience it.

[Weston]

JLC will often modify your stencil apertures without asking. For parts with unusual / critical apertures this can make the stencils borderline unusable. 

[Reckless]

We use DEK inifinity and MPM ultraprint automatic screen printers.  When using the 29" framed stencil and could not get the machines to print evenly.  I had 2 experienced SMT operators try with inconsistent results.  My go to person said that there was a strange coating that neither printer could get repeatable results.  It costs us $70 more to buy them locally.

[MarkF]

I want to move away from jlcpcb.  They have been way too unpredictable lately so I hope Aisler can replace them for me.  I don't mind paying 10% more for faster service.  Has anyone used them for stencils?  I tried jlcpcb and their stencils were crap. 

I tried uploading my file on their website and it continually says "Preparing your final production data..." and never does anything.  I tried emailing them but haven't heard a response.  How long do they normally take to respond?

I have been using Elecrow.
Similar to JLCPCB.  Have not used them since COVID-19 hit.

[JLCPCB Official]

Sorry for the delay in production and logistics Our production capacity back to normal in February, shipping is still improving. We seek for stable and fast delivery companies in some countries to replace new postal parcels and DHL parcels, hope many options as possible. FedEx, ems, Hong Kong DHL are all provided to customers. We are doing...

[Styno]

JLC will often modify your stencil apertures without asking. For parts with unusual / critical apertures this can make the stencils borderline unusable.

From the JLCPCB website:

At JLCPCB, the stencil aperture for components(except for diode) larger than 0805 will be slightly reduced from the pad size like below image to avoid the solder beads.

Note: If you don't want to apply this solder beading treatment for your stencil, please make a remark when you place an order. 

[thinkfat]

JLC will often modify your stencil apertures without asking. For parts with unusual / critical apertures this can make the stencils borderline unusable.

Aisler does the same.

[AndyC_772]

I'm surprised that a PCB manufacturer would make changes to a stencil, given that the required relationship between stencil aperture and component type is down to the assembly contractor and no-one else. Only they know how their own particular process works, what type of solder they're using, what reflow profile, what known issues from previous batches and so on. They're also the ones commercially responsible for the production yield; if a component doesn't solder properly, they're on the hook for the inspection and rework costs.

If a stencil needs changing it should always be at the request of the process engineer that will actually use it. Not the original PCB layout engineer, and certainly not on the whim of the company making the stencil.

My artwork has a standard note on the drill drawing layer which simply says :

APPROVAL IS REQUIRED FOR *ANY* CHANGE TO ARTWORK

It doesn't mean changes can't be made at all, it just means I must be informed about what is proposed and why before it can go ahead. If I submit the same job to two PCB suppliers, I expect to get back two sets of identical boards (and stencils).

There are other good reasons to be very particular about who gets to change PCB artwork and when. Some years ago I designed a PCB, we ordered a small number of prototypes, built them up, tested them, made some small changes, and ordered a much larger number of rev B boards.

They didn't work. Why? Because rev A contained a layout error which the PCB supplier had "helpfully" spotted and fixed without telling us, and which therefore hadn't been fixed on the rev B board. The PCB supplier, for whatever reason, didn't apply the same fix to rev B as they'd quietly applied to rev A.

Instead of the problem being confined to a small number of prototypes - which is why prototypes exist at all, of course - we now had a full production batch of boards that needed rework. The whole exercise was costly and time consuming.

Artwork changes: yes, if you need to, but TELL ME ABOUT THEM FIRST.

[Koen]

Add "按我的贴片层做，不要修改文件，谢谢！Please do not edit stencil!"

[coppice]

Add "按我的贴片层做，不要修改文件，谢谢！Please do not edit stencil!"

That Chinese says something like "Follow my SMD layer, do not modify the file". You might want wording that specifically says not to modify the stencil file.