Cheap non-Chinese source for 4 layer PCB manufacturing?

[Rat_Patrol]

Looking for a source outside of China for the manfuacturing of our PCBs that is still "cheap". What we have done in China costs us $20 per board delivered, but a US source would be around $300 per board delivered. We just can't pay that much extra for the same thing.

Normally we run around 150mmx200mm 4 layer PCBs. We tend to order in smaller quantities as most of what I do is custom or otherwise low production volume.

Any favorite sources?

[m98]

What's wrong with Chinese manufacturers? Too expensive?
Seriously, that trend has to stop somewhere. I don't want to see kids in Bangladesch etching PCBs with bare hands in corrosive industrial wastewater from the textile industry...

[Rat_Patrol]

I'm willing to pay a bit more than China production prices.

I'm looking to see if there is better quality at a bit higher prices, but not US production prices.

[forrestc]

What's wrong with Chinese manufacturers? Too expensive?
Seriously, that trend has to stop somewhere. I don't want to see kids in Bangladesch etching PCBs with bare hands in corrosive industrial wastewater from the textile industry...

There was a recent similar thread that ended up in bans and a not very nice back and forth.

Let me see if I can head this off:

The US government has seen fit to declare a trade war on China.   Because of the rhetoric around said trade war, many of us who manufacture/assemble in the US and sell primarily to the US market find ourselves in the unfortunate predicament that sourcing products from China is becoming a business liability with associated risks.   This results in many of us wanting to explore lower-risk options in other markets. 

The last thread devolved into political bickering.   Which ended up in at least one ban and a lot of warnings, and the original poster not getting an answer to their question.   Let's try not to go down that path.

I too would like to know the answer that the original poster posed, rephrased:  Other than sources in China what options exist for reasonably priced PCB manufacturing?   For me it's typically in the 100-500 boards category and 2 or 4 (with an occasional 6) layers.  Not sure about the original poster's quantities.

[donotdespisethesnake]

Lol, politics. 

I thought everyone had heard of https://pcbshopper.com/ Choices are basically China or expensive.

[48X24X48X]

Silvercircuits from Malaysia but not cheap.
No, I'm not associated with them.

[forrestc]

Lol, politics. 

I thought everyone had heard of https://pcbshopper.com/ Choices are basically China or expensive.

I have a feeling that the PCB fabricators we are looking for are not on pcbshopper.   I suspect the ones we're looking for are relatively old-school, where you email a zipped copy of the gerbers to a person and they reply with a quote.   A lot of PCB manufacturers don't have a slick orderable front end or well-defined prices which is what pcbshopper pretty much requires to work.

The challenge is finding them.  If you look at a list of the top manufacturers you'll find the companies which sell to Apple and Samsung and the like where an order for a few hundred isn't going to excite them.   But there have to be some smaller ones out there, the question being whether any exist at a price that one would want to buy from.  I'm not disagreeing with your sentiment at all - that's been my experience as well (China or Expensive), but one would think that Tiawan or South Korea or Japan would have something less expensive than is available in the USA (while still likely being more expensive than a Chinese sourced PCB).

[all_repair]

If such PCB houses still around, how do you think they can survive when they can't compete with the China PCB houses with their old facilities.  There is a way for them to keep serving their established clients and possibly those who cannot go direct to China PCB houses, that is to take the order and feed to China PCB houses, do the customer service and make the fat margin in between.  I am suspecting the old PCB house I used to use here is surviving this way.

[mikeselectricstuff]

What's wrong with Chinese manufacturers?

They are in the middle of a 2-week holiday right now - I have 2 projects on hold because of Chinese New Year. Customer's schedule not mine - they are currently deciding if they want to pay £500-600 for some flex prototypes that would be £100 from China. They're definitely going to wait on the other project which will be about £1000 from PCBway.

[nardev]

Try contacting this Bosnian company: https://pcb.ba/Home/PCB

They also have PCBa but the setup is like 300 EUR or something like that + per component etc.


p.s. I'm pretty sure you can negotiate price down from the first offer you get.

[coppice]

but one would think that Tiawan or South Korea or Japan would have something less expensive than is available in the USA (while still likely being more expensive than a Chinese sourced PCB).

Taiwan, South Korea and Japan moved all their low cost manufacture to China long ago. Now rising costs in China mean they've moved a lot of the simplest assembly work to Vietnam, Indonesia and other cheaper countries. Why would high cost countries like Taiwan, South Korea or Japan be able to offer a substantially cheaper service than the US, anyway? The only way China can compete with Vietnam is through high levels of automation, and a highly skilled, but not overly expensive, workforce.

[nardev]

Just checked with the Bosnian manufacturer. Looks pretty ok.

I didn't ask for 4 layer board but it looks like it's fairly proportional as other manufacturers are. So here is the example:

60 EUR Fee for a project start +
60 EUR per panel of size 305x460mm where 20mm padding is for each side.

I think that some significant number of panels can be more affordable. Also, they do all the paneling or what ever else you might need.

Also, another standard size of a panel is 530x410mm, price is slightly higher.

They don't do less than one panel.

Contact them if you need more info: https://pcb.ba/Home/PCB

p.s. They don't play with copper thickness, what you agree you get!

[Weston]

I find it encouraging that others are also looking to alternative sourcing. You better find an answer quickly though before the nationalist get all worked up   

I have not gotten to try them yet, but one of the better solutions that was recommended to me last time this conversation happened was Circuit Labs  / PCB Zone in New Zealand http://pcbzone.net/ . It seems like their price calculator breaks on larger boards though.

Other than that, there are some South Korean PCB fabs that only have Korean websites: https://www.hsdgt.com/

Aisler is similar to OSHPark but with a cheaper pricing structure. They seems to have better fabs for the European market though and are still figuring out the USA side (a few months ago the price calculator was broken for 4L PCBs)  https://aisler.net/

[asmi]

If such PCB houses still around, how do you think they can survive when they can't compete with the China PCB houses with their old facilities.

Simple - they pray on those unfortunate enough to have to deal with ITAR and other export shenanigans. Lack of online quote system is a feature and not an oversight - their business model is to extract as much money as possible from customers who have no choice, as opposed to making process more streamlined and efficient. This is also why they don't really feel any need to optimize their process to become more competitive. The usual excuse they come up with - high workforce cost - is known to be BS to anyone who ever been at (or at least seen videos of) modern PCB factory with high level of automation. And this is a real reason why the likes of jlcpcb are so competitive - they've built a very streamlined and efficient process from order to shipping, which is also complimented by extremely efficient logistics for both sourcing materials as well as shipping finished products.
But I think they are wrong, and sooner or later someone in US will realize that the key to cost reduction is not outsourcing, but automation. This is going to come with some compromises for customers - like one-way street for ordering ("once you press this button, the order goes into the pipeline and can not be changed under any circumstances") , or lack of 24/7 customer service - but they will be more than made up for with the lower price.

[forrestc]

But I think they are wrong, and sooner or later someone in US will realize that the key to cost reduction is not outsourcing, but automation. This is going to come with some compromises for customers - like one-way street for ordering ("once you press this button, the order goes into the pipeline and can not be changed under any circumstances") , or lack of 24/7 customer service - but they will be more than made up for with the lower price.

Having had a discussion with a couple of PCB manufacturers in the US over the years, a big chunk of the challenge in the US is not labor but draconian EPA (environmental) rules about the waste products and the expense of disposal.   The EPA has progressed in the US to the point where it considers things that no sane person would consider hazardous waste to be hazardous waste.  As a result, a large part of the cost of manufacturing PCB's in the US is the expense of disposing of these 'hazardous' materials. 

I'm sure that the PCB manufacturing in China is the other extreme - that pollution is generally not really thought about and things a sane person thinks should be treated in some way are just dumped in the environment.   I'd rather pick somewhere in the middle.

[Rat_Patrol]

Again with Wurth, what cost me $20/piece from China is $340/piece from Wurth.


Crazy how I can't find a middle ground anywhere.

[donotdespisethesnake]

Crazy how I can't find a middle ground anywhere.

As a business, you either race to the bottom, or move to the premium end. Stay in the middle and get crushed by both sides. So your finding does not surprise me.

[rea5245]

As a business, you either race to the bottom, or move to the premium end. Stay in the middle and get crushed by both sides. So your finding does not surprise me.

I don't think so. Cars, restaurants, clothes, housing, furniture, electronic gadgets - basically everything - have dirt cheap options, premium options, and mid-range options all co-existing successfully.

- Bob

[rx8pilot]

As a business, you either race to the bottom, or move to the premium end. Stay in the middle and get crushed by both sides. So your finding does not surprise me.

I let that happen to my own business - trying to hold on to the middle ground too long. I had to make a choice to buy PCB's and other parts from China for <10% the cost of the USA options.

While I stood firm paying the big bucks for USA parts, my competition was enjoying the ultra-cheap Chinese costs and the middle-ground customers did not care. Lesson learned the hard way.

I have been searching for non-Chinese PCB manufacturers for a long time and not found anything in the middle. Not even close. PCB's are either shockingly cheap or shockingly expensive as far as I can tell.

[rea5245]

I let that happen to my own business - trying to hold on to the middle ground too long.

If you're going to go middle-ground or premium, your product needs to be somehow better than the dirt-cheap products. With PCBs, however, there's no significant difference between what you get from cheap Chinese factories vs. expensive US/European factories. At least for most products. Perhaps for harsh environments, the expensive PCBs survive better, but that's not an issue for most things.

So the problem comes when someone tries to sell a commodity at a premium price. (My brother, who was a business major, pointed out to me once that Frank Purdue, of Purdue chicken fame, managed to take a commodity product and somehow sell it as a premium product. But it's rare that someone can pull that off.)

- Bob

[olkipukki]

Again with Wurth, what cost me $20/piece from China is $340/piece from Wurth.

Did you try to find out why the difference so high?

Just drop an email / contact support and ask for explanation nicely, they might give you a hit where their calculator became crazy.

P.S.
Not related to above, but some house quote 1000% mark up to change color from green to red 

[coppice]

Not related to above, but some house quote 1000% mark up to change color from green to red 

For prototyping prices go all over the place when you want anything but the commonest form, but colour makes little difference to the price for volume orders - assuming you want a colour they deal with.

[olkipukki]

I suspect the ones we're looking for are relatively old-school, where you email a zipped copy of the gerbers to a person and they reply with a quote. 

Actually, I found this is one of most efficient way to do!

I would say as self pay kiosk vs concierge service 

You don't waste your time to fill in one hundred and one fields here and there across webpages, dealing with some non-sense UI and many keyboard/mouse  clicks.

You just send a spec (that can be prep or auto generated on your side  in advance ) and attach gerbers, that's all.
If a house offers APIs, much better - fully integrate in your pipeline, but I don't come across it yet (somebody used jlcpcb api?)


Of course, you should have strong feeling in an expecting pricing.

[olkipukki]

For prototyping prices go all over the place when you want anything but the commonest form, but colour makes little difference to the price for volume orders - assuming you want a colour they deal with.

Ehhh... that's a tricky question what is "volume" for a house.

Do you think they will happy to clean these for free if somebody want "non standard" colour?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljOoGyCso8s&feature=youtu.be&t=915

[all_repair]

As a business, you either race to the bottom, or move to the premium end. Stay in the middle and get crushed by both sides. So your finding does not surprise me.

I don't think so. Cars, restaurants, clothes, housing, furniture, electronic gadgets - basically everything - have dirt cheap options, premium options, and mid-range options all co-existing successfully.

That "premium" can exist due to hollow perception and good feeling of the end user.  For components that people cannot see nor feel, and only functionality matters then that premium is difficult to last.