Author Topic: Cheap non-Chinese source for 4 layer PCB manufacturing? (Read 11837 times)

thm_w · « **Reply #25 on:** January 28, 2020, 11:01:01 pm »

Quote from: forrestc on January 28, 2020, 04:40:30 am

Having had a discussion with a couple of PCB manufacturers in the US over the years, a big chunk of the challenge in the US is not labor but draconian EPA (environmental) rules about the waste products and the expense of disposal. The EPA has progressed in the US to the point where it considers things that no sane person would consider hazardous waste to be hazardous waste. As a result, a large part of the cost of manufacturing PCB's in the US is the expense of disposing of these 'hazardous' materials.

I'm sure that the PCB manufacturing in China is the other extreme - that pollution is generally not really thought about and things a sane person thinks should be treated in some way are just dumped in the environment. I'd rather pick somewhere in the middle.

I would think a large plant like JLC is properly treating their wastewater, and is being audited by the government. Not going to be as strict as some places in the US, but, hopefully its a lot better than Indonesia:

Large textile plants dumping toxic chemical waste straight into the river.

Rat_Patrol · « **Reply #26 on:** January 29, 2020, 03:35:56 pm »

Just got back a quote from these folks in South Korea:

http://quickturnpcb.co.kr/

They are almost the exact same price or my needs (150mmx200mm, 2oz inner copper, 2.5 ounce outer copper) as PCBWay (About $20 each), so long as I order 20 minimum.

newbie666 · « **Reply #27 on:** January 30, 2020, 01:19:01 pm »

I've worked with these guys before, top notch quality of PCBs and pricing is decent (there's an online calculator)
https://tspcb.pl/de/prototypen-tska/ausfuhrung-technologie

Gandalf_Sr · « **Reply #28 on:** January 31, 2020, 12:59:53 pm »

I've used PCBWay before and had reasonable results, on a few occasions the registration and quality of the silk screen component marking has been marginal but for prototypes that's fine.

I have 2 sets of 2-sided bare PCB prototypes out to JLC PCB right now (first time I've tried them) and that order seems to have got stuck in the CNY+Coronovirus perfect storm, they been in process now for over a week and are only 83% done; not a complaint, just an observation.

Once I've proved a design out, I work with a local CM such as Saline Lectronics for runs in the 1,000s.

As folks here are observing, 5 bare PCBs for $5 total in China vs $20 each in the USA.

Rat_Patrol · « **Reply #29 on:** January 31, 2020, 04:38:49 pm »

I've Placed an order from quickturnpcb out of South Korea.

I got back a very reasonable quote from TS PCB out of Germany, but after I already placed an order with quickturnpcb. They have a significant setup fee of 115 EU, but that is a one time, and not applied for repeat identical PCB orders, but their prices are very reasonable, especially with 20 day lead times and larger orders (50+). I do believe I will give them a try when I'm off of prototypes. For an order of 20 boards, I was looking at 577 EU plus shipping, but that is a 150x200mm board, 4 layer, 2oz copper on all layers. Even PCBWay is $23/board.

Nice bonus is that TS PCB can apparently do sequential numbering on the silkscreen. This would save us having to apply Kapton stickers, and $500 to buy a spool of customized kapton stickers.

Anybody aware of any US manufactured PCBs that can compete on that price?

Rat_Patrol · « **Reply #30 on:** January 31, 2020, 04:40:33 pm »

Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on January 31, 2020, 12:59:53 pm

I've used PCBWay before and had reasonable results, on a few occasions the registration and quality of the silk screen component marking has been marginal but for prototypes that's fine.

PCBWay is my normal go-to for prototype boards. I've noticed that the solder mask is not particularly durable, and frequently small areas (such as between SMD pads) will come off during re-work. Its OK for prototyping, but not ideal for final products.

AndyC_772 · « **Reply #31 on:** January 31, 2020, 04:53:26 pm »

Don't mind me, I'm just subscribing to this thread because I'd like the same thing... somewhere where I can pay "a bit" more than I'd have to pay one of the myriad super-cheap Chinese fabs, and get a better level of quality and service.

I too have found that "a bit" usually equates to "add a zero", and sorry, no, that's never going to happen without compelling commercial justification.

exmadscientist · « **Reply #32 on:** February 02, 2020, 10:28:27 pm »

Quote from: Rat_Patrol on January 29, 2020, 03:35:56 pm

Just got back a quote from these folks in South Korea:

http://quickturnpcb.co.kr/

They are almost the exact same price or my needs (150mmx200mm, 2oz inner copper, 2.5 ounce outer copper) as PCBWay (About $20 each), so long as I order 20 minimum.

For what it's worth, we love these guys for prototype runs. The price is a bit above China, but the quality is -- literally -- as good as anything I've ever seen. They have caught mistakes in submitted gerbers, too... which Very Very Expensive US fabs have not. Their 24 hour expedite is expensive, sure, but it's 24 hour expedite that delivers on time, so what do you expect?

The other company who's good for prototypes is PCBZone/Circuit Specialists out of NZ. If you need 1 or 2 boards, they're usually cheaper than U&I; at 3+, U&I will usually win. Their quality is also excellent and their expedite is similar.

We found both companies through PCBshopper and I'd trust either one with full production of any design within their spec.

Rat_Patrol · « **Reply #33 on:** February 03, 2020, 06:39:44 pm »

Quote from: exmadscientist on February 02, 2020, 10:28:27 pm

Quote from: Rat_Patrol on January 29, 2020, 03:35:56 pm
Just got back a quote from these folks in South Korea:

http://quickturnpcb.co.kr/

They are almost the exact same price or my needs (150mmx200mm, 2oz inner copper, 2.5 ounce outer copper) as PCBWay (About $20 each), so long as I order 20 minimum.
For what it's worth, we love these guys for prototype runs. The price is a bit above China, but the quality is -- literally -- as good as anything I've ever seen. They have caught mistakes in submitted gerbers, too... which Very Very Expensive US fabs have not. Their 24 hour expedite is expensive, sure, but it's 24 hour expedite that delivers on time, so what do you expect?

The other company who's good for prototypes is PCBZone/Circuit Specialists out of NZ. If you need 1 or 2 boards, they're usually cheaper than U&I; at 3+, U&I will usually win. Their quality is also excellent and their expedite is similar.

We found both companies through PCBshopper and I'd trust either one with full production of any design within their spec.

Its funny you say they caught errors, because they just caught an error on my prototype! One of my vias was as a pad, so the trace on I2 went nowhere instead of using a via to get back to C1. That was a $500 mistake on my end (cost of my batch of boards, which would have been worthless), and we would have been going in circles for who knows how long before figuring it out. That alone has earned more business from me!

EEVblog · « **Reply #34 on:** February 03, 2020, 10:44:39 pm »

How about New Zealand?
https://www.pcbzone.net/
http://www.circuitlabs.co.nz/

JPortici · « **Reply #35 on:** February 04, 2020, 10:56:54 am »

What can you tell me about Aisler in europe? I'm about to hit buy (90 euro, 3pcs instead of 200 euro, 2pcs which is what i was quoted everywhere else)
I've only seen a few reviews, mixed results. Anytime they had problems the boards were remanufactured, but since it takes 8 working days i may just wait for the 17th hoping that chinese fabs will not push back further

doppelgrau · « **Reply #36 on:** February 04, 2020, 10:30:05 pm »

Ordered twice from aisler, no problems.
Will do it again for prototypes, if the 4 layer stacking fits the application (currently only 18um on the outer layer for 4 layer PCBs).

wraper · « **Reply #37 on:** February 04, 2020, 10:50:13 pm »

Quote from: doppelgrau on February 04, 2020, 10:30:05 pm

Ordered twice from aisler, no problems.
Will do it again for prototypes, if the 4 layer stacking fits the application (currently only 18um on the outer layer for 4 layer PCBs).

IMHO it's typo. Claiming 35u inner layer and 18u outer is a sort of nonsense. Initially both inner and outer should be 18u with outer layers having plated copper which increases copper thickness to 35u. Also don't bother with their Gerber naming instructions. It seems to do nothing to automatic layer recognition, I wasted half a day trying to feed files according to their tutorial to only get them recognized wrong for most of my designs. Change file extensions to what Seed studio/China services use (.GBO, .GTO, etc) and it recognizes everything correctly.

doppelgrau · « **Reply #38 on:** February 04, 2020, 11:11:51 pm »

The 18um are no typos. Mentioned in too many places, including a german forum, where "Felix" said they are considering changing the stackup:

https://aisler.net/help/design-rules-and-specifications/specifications
https://aisler.net/help/design-rules-and-specifications/4-layer-pcb-stackup
https://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/483895#6075656

GerardG · « **Reply #39 on:** February 05, 2020, 08:22:09 am »

Most boards I have done for automotive had 1oz (35) inner layers and 0.5oz(18)+plating outer layers. (35µm inner and outer)

That said, if traces get smaller we also used 12, 9 or 5µm start copper.

It depends on the type of board you want to build. Thinner copper will help on etching characteristics.
Best practice is to check what type of boards a manufacturer is already producing.

nardev · « **Reply #40 on:** February 05, 2020, 12:08:09 pm »

So far i haven't find as cheap in Europe as this one in Bosnia that i mentioned. I just don't like that 60EUR setup fee but as i see, others are even more expensive.
https://pcb.ba/Home/PCB

Having this prices in mind, i just can't understand how pcbway and jlcpcb make it.

Gandalf_Sr · « **Reply #41 on:** February 06, 2020, 09:47:26 am »

Quote from: nardev on February 05, 2020, 12:08:09 pm

...Having this prices in mind, i just can't understand how pcbway and jlcpcb make it.

I agree, they can't be paying their workers much

but the video views of their factories look like they are enormous.

Here's an update of my prototype PCB order crawling through JLCPCB during the CNY + Coronovirus situation. My order was placed Jan 23, production started Jan 24 but wasn't finished until Feb 1 (8 days later) and, ever since then, the DHL tracking number against my order indicates that it hasn't been given to DHL yet (5 days and counting).

If the boards are OK when (if) they arrive, I will try JLCPCB again as the Coronavirus caused a delay of people coming back to work from the CNY of at least a week (CN government mandated that) plus all the problems around travel restrictions and airlines not flying to/from China; JLPCB and DHL must be swamped assuming they are even back up to full staffing levels.

I heard yesterday on National Public Radio that most airlines get twice as much money from carrying freight in their cargo hold as they do flying first class passengers; the program also said that was often "2 semi-truck full(s) of cargo" on a typical international flight.

Koen · « **Reply #42 on:** February 06, 2020, 10:09:59 am »

There's this interesting page up since January 15 :

https://support.jlcpcb.com/article/73-jlcpcb-spring-festival-holiday-schedule

where you can read things like :

"Meanwhile, international logistics like DHL service will temporarily be suspended till February 6 (officially resume on February 10)."

and stop speculating.

Gandalf_Sr · « **Reply #43 on:** February 06, 2020, 10:50:07 am »

Quote from: Koen on February 06, 2020, 10:09:59 am

There's this interesting page up since January 15 :

https://support.jlcpcb.com/article/73-jlcpcb-spring-festival-holiday-schedule

where you can read things like :

"Meanwhile, international logistics like DHL service will temporarily be suspended till February 6 (officially resume on February 10)."

and stop speculating.

I missed that, thanks

[EDIT] The DHL tracking has just changed to status "Shipment Picked Up" so hopefully, things are starting to move again.

Weston · « **Reply #44 on:** February 11, 2020, 06:44:08 pm »

Does anyone have info solder mask tolerances for PCBZone? There is nothing on their website about it. I have been wanting to try them but I have a solder mask defined footprint I don't want messed up.

I have emailed them twice now about this and gotten no reply. The only thing I can think of is that they filter out EDU emails or have an aggressive spam filter.

Rat_Patrol · « **Reply #45 on:** February 11, 2020, 06:52:50 pm »

Got my tracking info from quickturnpcb.

Coming in hot! Shipped today, scheduled for delivery tomorrow.

Of course its coming FedEx, so who really knows when it will show up

Rat_Patrol · « **Reply #46 on:** February 12, 2020, 06:47:58 pm »

They arrived this morning!

I only quickly glanced at them, the whole stack is going into the reflow oven to bake for the rest of the day. I want to ramp up the temp slowly (only 45c to start) up to about 100c in a few hours, leave it there for a few hours so it penetrates the whole stack, then let them cool down.

jake111 · « **Reply #47 on:** February 13, 2020, 06:27:13 am »

Quote from: blueskull on January 28, 2020, 04:53:22 am

China also has EPA, just with more sense.
Basically, you have to precipitate all heavy metal ions form etching, and make sure your PH is adjusted to 7, and no VOC other than common non toxic exceptions like alcohol, is drained.
Other than that, there's no stupid rules such as limiting sodium ion.
Also, OSHA in China is not governed by EPA, but by DOL, which has less power. Thus, worker protection is also less stringent in China, which greatly increased productivity per worker.

Single most hilarious post I've read online. However, I took it as a broad statement, applying to all of china, and I assume you are speaking of just the PCB manufacturer(s) you are familiar with in your locale.

Broadly speaking, china is the dirtiest country I've ever visited. They have established themselves as leaders in modern CFC-11 emissions, after developed countries banned them decades ago for the obvious reasons. Let's not even get into plastics... batteries... etc...

Sorry, I had to point it out. Taken broadly, it's a funny statement

coppice · « **Reply #48 on:** February 13, 2020, 09:31:24 am »

Quote from: jake111 on February 13, 2020, 06:27:13 am

Broadly speaking, china is the dirtiest country I've ever visited.

You need to get out more.

Simon · « **Reply #49 on:** February 13, 2020, 02:59:59 pm »

Can we stay off the politics please.


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Author Topic: Cheap non-Chinese source for 4 layer PCB manufacturing? (Read 11837 times)

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