Author Topic: Cheap non-Chinese source for 4 layer PCB manufacturing?  (Read 3195 times)

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Offline jake111

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Re: Cheap non-Chinese source for 4 layer PCB manufacturing?
« Reply #50 on: February 13, 2020, 06:27:13 am »

China also has EPA, just with more sense.
Basically, you have to precipitate all heavy metal ions form etching, and make sure your PH is adjusted to 7, and no VOC other than common non toxic exceptions like alcohol, is drained.
Other than that, there's no stupid rules such as limiting sodium ion.
Also, OSHA in China is not governed by EPA, but by DOL, which has less power. Thus, worker protection is also less stringent in China, which greatly increased productivity per worker.



Single most hilarious post I've read online.  However, I took it as a broad statement, applying to all of china, and I assume you are speaking of just the PCB manufacturer(s) you are familiar with in your locale.

Broadly speaking, china is the dirtiest country I've ever visited.  They have established themselves as leaders in modern CFC-11 emissions, after developed countries banned them decades ago for the obvious reasons.  Let's not even get into plastics... batteries... etc...

Sorry, I had to point it out.  Taken broadly, it's a funny statement  :-DD
 

Online blueskull

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Re: Cheap non-Chinese source for 4 layer PCB manufacturing?
« Reply #51 on: February 13, 2020, 06:42:30 am »
Single most hilarious post I've read online.  However, I took it as a broad statement, applying to all of china, and I assume you are speaking of just the PCB manufacturer(s) you are familiar with in your locale.

The law says so. And there is a tax called environment tax exists in China punishing companies in "transition phase".

Broadly speaking, china is the dirtiest country I've ever visited.

You never been to India, have you, or any heavily industrialized developing countries.

They have established themselves as leaders in modern CFC-11 emissions, after developed countries banned them decades ago for the obvious reasons.

Why don't you try to buy a brand new Freon fridge or AC in China. Because you can't.
And unlike some countries still using HFC, we are phasing out HFC and replacing them with more dangerous but more green HC. Hope your country has such courage.

Let's not even get into plastics... batteries... etc...

Oh, we just realized this problem and have stopped importing plastic junk from the West. Bad for you, good for us.
And no, we don't use AA/AAA batteries with mercury any more, and no more cadmium in batteries rest of for certain power tools.

Sorry, I had to point it out.  Taken broadly, it's a funny statement  :-DD

We have mandated recycling in a few cities, and we plan to roll mandated recycling to 26 major cities by 2020.
And we do our own sorting at home, to landfill, paper, metal, plastic, glass, compostable and toxic wastes, unlike certain countries trying to export mixed "recyclable" junk.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Cheap non-Chinese source for 4 layer PCB manufacturing?
« Reply #52 on: February 13, 2020, 09:31:24 am »
Broadly speaking, china is the dirtiest country I've ever visited.
You need to get out more.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Cheap non-Chinese source for 4 layer PCB manufacturing?
« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2020, 02:59:59 pm »
Can we stay off the politics please.
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Offline ghieber

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Re: Cheap non-Chinese source for 4 layer PCB manufacturing?
« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2020, 02:53:08 am »
To come back to the original question, try this:

www.aetzwerk.de

German company, good quality, friendly people. 150x200, 4 layers, @50 pieces (that's the max the online calculator handles) € 13,20 a piece. 3 prototypes € 87 each.

For prototypes significantly more expensive than the Chinese, in small batch production IMHO reasonable.

 

Online Koen

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Re: Cheap non-Chinese source for 4 layer PCB manufacturing?
« Reply #55 on: February 15, 2020, 03:09:47 am »
Any experiences in India ? Thank you
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Cheap non-Chinese source for 4 layer PCB manufacturing?
« Reply #56 on: February 15, 2020, 10:54:17 am »
I sued Aisler although their website is a nightmare and the options very limited. I hope they grow up soon and stop using that stupid fisher price website, that calls thing "repositories"..... The next time i order i will send them the files manually for a proper quote alonf with specific stencils required and a single shipping cost. I just ordered 3 boards at work and we paid 15 euros shipping 3 times because the site is too stupid to have a proper cart. Won't be doing that again, but they are cheap and they make in Germany.
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Online thinkfat

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Re: Cheap non-Chinese source for 4 layer PCB manufacturing?
« Reply #57 on: February 15, 2020, 12:09:55 pm »
I sued Aisler although their website is a nightmare and the options very limited. I hope they grow up soon and stop using that stupid fisher price website, that calls thing "repositories"..... The next time i order i will send them the files manually for a proper quote alonf with specific stencils required and a single shipping cost. I just ordered 3 boards at work and we paid 15 euros shipping 3 times because the site is too stupid to have a proper cart. Won't be doing that again, but they are cheap and they make in Germany.

Eh? What happened to https://aisler.net/help/shipping/ordering-more-than-project ? Not applicable?
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Cheap non-Chinese source for 4 layer PCB manufacturing?
« Reply #58 on: February 15, 2020, 12:23:44 pm »
Well I am not sure this actually worked. It's too airy fairy. On the understanding tat they are cheap anyway a senior colleague was happy to make triple payments. i am pretty sure we paid shipping multiple times but can only confirm once we get the invoices. The cart for each order showed shipping.
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Online ebastler

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Re: Cheap non-Chinese source for 4 layer PCB manufacturing?
« Reply #59 on: February 15, 2020, 12:46:42 pm »
I sued Aisler although their website is a nightmare

That's overreacting even if the website is really bad, I'd say.  ;)
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Cheap non-Chinese source for 4 layer PCB manufacturing?
« Reply #60 on: February 15, 2020, 04:36:26 pm »
I sued Aisler although their website is a nightmare

That's overreacting even if the website is really bad, I'd say.  ;)

No, only my poor motor skills on a keyboard overreacted. Well spotted 😂
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Offline Weston

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Re: Cheap non-Chinese source for 4 layer PCB manufacturing?
« Reply #61 on: February 15, 2020, 08:13:07 pm »
I got some boards from Pcbzone yesterday. The look great and came really fast and were only a bit more than the Chinese fabs, probably the same price if you want the same lead time. The stencil I got from them is pretty meh though. Its not flat and the back side has a number of small beads of metal stuck on it, which I assume are from the laser cutting process. Given that OSHStencil costs less than their stencil service and ships quickly I think I will avoid their stencil service in the future.

My biggest complaint about Pcbzone is that I emailed them three times asking about solder mask tolerance and never got a response. Perhaps I need to try the Circuit Lab email addresses. I totally plan on using them in the future.

I have some PCBs + Stencils coming from Aisler on Tuesday, I will have to update with how they come out. I do agree though, their website is ass.

 

Offline Simon

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Re: Cheap non-Chinese source for 4 layer PCB manufacturing?
« Reply #62 on: February 15, 2020, 08:21:01 pm »
The boards I got look ok but not used them yet. The stencils seem to have a fixed amount of margin to the PCB edge. Obviously you don't get to chose the thickness. The problem I have which is why next time they will take my files by email and quote manually or I go elsewhere is that I am having my workplace make me a pasting jig that will require 4mm holes every 10mm to engage in the clamp. The easiest thing to do is to put those clamp holes in the PCB design but this can cause confusion and as i can't seperately upload a file for the stencil I don't know what else to do. PCB train allows a separate stencil file as the stencil order is separate so i could probably export to DXF and use 3D CAD to put the holes on and send them a DXF file.
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Offline Rat_Patrol

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Re: Cheap non-Chinese source for 4 layer PCB manufacturing?
« Reply #63 on: February 15, 2020, 11:04:14 pm »
Got some stencils in from PCBWay from Shenzen China.

I don't need them right now, so I'll just let the box sit outside...
 

Offline JPortici

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Re: Cheap non-Chinese source for 4 layer PCB manufacturing?
« Reply #64 on: February 20, 2020, 06:51:18 am »
Pulled the trigger on Aisler. Really weird website.
In any case, if the boards turns out okay i think i'll switch to them for future orders. I used elecrow/jlc/allpcb in the past a lot, but almost always for prototypes, so i just needed a couple of PCBs, not 5 or 10.
And for two layer boards, once you factor in shipping via DHL and possible import tax with associated extortion fee by the courier, price is nearly the same (plus or minus some cents)
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Cheap non-Chinese source for 4 layer PCB manufacturing?
« Reply #65 on: February 20, 2020, 08:50:08 am »
Aisler are cheaper and faster. I have been exchanging emails with Felix and he says they will redesign the website. They are so cheap that for work where it's not my money I don't care about repeat 15 EUR shipping costs. For me personally i will use free shipping.

My only concern is that I am getting a stencil printer made at work that will need a series of holes each side of the stencil. With Aisler I can only use the main board data for the stencil so will put the holes in my design as a last act with a text note that they are for the stencil and let them figure it out.
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Online thinkfat

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Re: Cheap non-Chinese source for 4 layer PCB manufacturing?
« Reply #66 on: February 20, 2020, 08:51:41 am »
I suspect Aisler are a bit overwhelmed by the attention they're getting now. If you look at their website and mission statement, they were targetting small orders from the hobbyist and Open Hardware camp. They even go as far as adding a small donation to KiCAD to your bill if you upload a KiCAD file instead of Gerbers. Which is fine for me, I use KiCAD and like to support them. Of course you can always erase that line from the bill before ordering.

I sure hope they don't collapse and up their offering based on the feedback they're getting now. It's really useful to have these non-Asian manufacturers around.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Cheap non-Chinese source for 4 layer PCB manufacturing?
« Reply #67 on: February 20, 2020, 09:13:44 am »
Yes indeed. My orders have been for prototypes and one offs but i still want a stencil that I can actually use. I am considering the component supply service for work where again even if more expensive not my money and would save a lot of time (money) trying to get parts out of the likes of RS.

I particularly like the donate to kicad option and always use it for work as well. I wish they would make the donation have optional higher amounts perhaps calculated on order value. Work will never pay for something they don't have to and i chose to use kicad but this way every time we design something with KiCad they get something out of work.
https://www.simonselectronics.co.uk/shop
Varied stock of test instruments and components including EEVblog gear and Wurth Elektronik Books.
Also, if you want to get ripped off: https://www.ebay.co.uk/usr/simons_electronics?_trksid=p2047675.l2559
 

Offline mxhll

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Re: Cheap non-Chinese source for 4 layer PCB manufacturing?
« Reply #68 on: February 21, 2020, 10:48:07 am »
Yes I think Aisler is having some problems with the high number of orders now that chinese production is slowed down.

They state 2 days of leadtime for basic pcbs on their website, but they take more like 5 days.
But I'm very grateful that someone is trying to compete with cheap chinese pcb pools. And the quality seems to be fine aswell.
 

Online thinkfat

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Re: Cheap non-Chinese source for 4 layer PCB manufacturing?
« Reply #69 on: February 21, 2020, 10:54:22 am »
Yes I think Aisler is having some problems with the high number of orders now that chinese production is slowed down.

They state 2 days of leadtime for basic pcbs on their website, but they take more like 5 days.
But I'm very grateful that someone is trying to compete with cheap chinese pcb pools. And the quality seems to be fine aswell.

2 days is only for the "Blitz" queue. The "snail" (they call it HD) queue takes 5 days.
 

Offline mxhll

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Re: Cheap non-Chinese source for 4 layer PCB manufacturing?
« Reply #70 on: February 21, 2020, 11:21:26 am »
Sure, I know. My latest order has just been sent, it took 4 business days. Thats still faster than JLC+Express shipping has been for me (last year)
 


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