Author Topic: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine  (Read 34751 times)

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Online EEVblogTopic starter

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Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« on: November 29, 2022, 09:48:40 am »
As the title says, I'm trying to select a commercial desktop pick and place machine. Say USD$5k budget.
No, the DIY options are out, I want something more capable.
Used pro machines are rare here in oz.

NeoDen YY1 looked very nice at US$2899, but quite a few people have recommended against a Neoden for issues and support reasons. Existing thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/neoden-yy1-pick-and-place-machine-with-under-$3k-price-for-hobbiestlow-vol-usag/
Uses 3D printed friction feeders that are reportedly trouble with plastic tape.
Single fiducial system.

iTech PPM-A320VB (rebadged ZhengBang ZB3245TSS) looks nice. US$3568 with vibration feeder.
Dual head, 0402 with 320×450mm area, 54 feeders of all widths. Juki nozles.
5500cph (doesn't say with or without vision)
Dual fiducial system. Driven feed system claims to solve the friction problem presumably like on the Neoden YY1.
Claims japanese belts and Taiwan linear rails.
https://www.itechsmt.com/products/ppm-a320vb-pick-and-place-machine?variant=40005233016922
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004254525949.html
Brochure: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0561/1136/6234/files/PPM-A320VB_Brochure.pdf?v=1663915251
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002836131010.html

Charmhigh CHMT36VA US$2750
Dual head,
2800cph with vision
https://www.charmhigh-tech.com/sale-8209415-chmt36va-vibration-feeder-vision-desktop-pick-and-place-machine-0402-5050-sop-qfn.html
Unexpected Maker had support issues with Charmhigh, but not this model?

I'll update this post as I find options.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2022, 11:30:09 am by EEVblog »
 
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Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2022, 11:04:11 am »
That iTech PPM-A320VB is actually just a rebadge of ZhengBang ZB3245TSS. There's a series of video of the software by ZhengBang on YT that I need to dig back if you are interested. For me, very intuitive and simple software to use.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2022, 11:05:47 am by 48X24X48X »
 
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Online EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2022, 11:13:06 am »
That iTech PPM-A320VB is actually just a rebadge of ZhengBang ZB3245TSS. There's a series of video of the software by ZhengBang on YT that I need to dig back if you are interested. For me, very intuitive and simple software to use.

Thanks.
Comes with a free virus!
https://hackaday.com/tag/zb3245tss/
« Last Edit: November 29, 2022, 11:17:22 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline loki42

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2022, 01:01:25 pm »
Is 5k Inc freight?  Freight is really pricey at the moment.  I recently imported machines from Malaysia and the USA.  You can get used Yamaha / Phillips machines for almost nothing from elsewhere which are very old but out preform any Chinese machine that I've heard of. I looked at emerald and topas Philips.  There's also I guy selling 2 jukis for about $4.5K each in Melbourne that runs well, takes normal feeders etc.  It's pretty small but not table top.  He's got an mpm printer that needs some work he wants to get rid of too.  He's got a good pile of feeders for it. 

What are you doing for stencil printing?  PnP is more trendy but stencil printing is hard.  I've got a spare DEK Horizon 03i in Melbourne.  I could swap it for some circuit design help! 

5k isn't much though... the 88mm feeders for my machine cost 5k...
 

Offline lutkeveld

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2022, 01:11:37 pm »
I have had the CHMT36 (without vision), and it was quite nice for its price.
Without vision I would recommend staying above 0603 and 0.65mm pitch components.
With vision it might a bit more precise, but still....
The dragfeeders worked quite well, the main problem to look out for is the film peelers accidentally catching too much film and yanking the tape forwards every time it peels. So the machine needs some babysitting, but that is probably the case in all sub 10k machines.

As mentioned, stencilling is the most important step to get right! And a decent oven helps too. I would avoid those IR drawer ovens unless you are okay with using leaded solder.
 

Offline Jackster

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2022, 01:20:12 pm »
That iTech PPM-A320VB is actually just a rebadge of ZhengBang ZB3245TSS. There's a series of video of the software by ZhengBang on YT that I need to dig back if you are interested. For me, very intuitive and simple software to use.

Thanks.
Comes with a free virus!
https://hackaday.com/tag/zb3245tss/

Pretty sure most software coming out of China comes with some level of backdoor trojan.
My machine's software had something as well.

When you decompile and recompile the software, it is gone. So it is something tagged onto the exe.

I suspect CPC forces them to run it through an injector so any foreign use of it is monitored and opens a backdoor for the CPC to use.


Offline DLE

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2022, 01:55:18 pm »
I've had good success the with CHMT36VA (one with vision) it has its challenges.  Someone coined it a Diva, that's accurate, it needs its green M&Ms and 5C sparkling water, but it works well once you give it those things.  I've run several thousand boards over the years on it.  Sparkfun here in the states put a few things together for it to make it easier to use.  Beware of viruses on the drive that comes from Charmhigh, there is a github repo somewhere (can't remember) that has clean files for it.  If you go that way I can find some links to post.
 

Online EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2022, 02:01:24 pm »
There's also I guy selling 2 jukis for about $4.5K each in Melbourne that runs well, takes normal feeders etc.  It's pretty small but not table top.  He's got an mpm printer that needs some work he wants to get rid of too.  He's got a good pile of feeders for it. 

Link?

 

Offline jmelson

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2022, 05:10:23 pm »
I bought a Quad QSA30A from an auction for the minimum starting bid.  It apparently had been sitting almost unused for 14 years or so.  It fired right up when I got it, but then boards started going bad.  The manuals were quite awful, but with some help from the guy who trained users at the factory, I eventually learned how to use it.  It is quite a well-designed machine, built like a tank, and has flying vision.  This is my second P&P machine, the first one had no vision and just centering chuck arms and was not accurate enough for fine pitch parts.
One huge plus of the Quad machine is that it has extensive self diagnostic features to test the recognition of board fiducials, waffle tray pickup positions, array step-over and part measurement.
So, I went through a lot of issues with this machine, but in the end it has worked out quite well. 
With my older machine, I was making boards within a week of arrival.  Of course, part of that was that it had been in production 2 weeks before it was shipped to me.  So, I highly recommend looking at older, high-end production machines if you have the space.  Just make sure they have not been sitting for too long.
Jon
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2022, 05:45:51 pm »
Aliexpress looks to be riddled with various P&P machines. There could be some interesting feedback amongst the machines that got sold. One of the things I'd look for is that a P&P machine has a closed loop servo position system instead of freerunning (open loop) steppers. Using open loop steppers is asking for trouble.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2022, 07:40:47 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2022, 08:53:50 pm »
So, I highly recommend looking at older, high-end production machines if you have the space.  Just make sure they have not been sitting for too long.

They are just so rare here. And such a huge machine won't get through the door of my dungeon. My bunker has double doors but does not have ventiltation like my dungeon, and it's not conveniently downstairs.
I just missed out on a machine with 40 Yamaha feeders, I put a big on it but the guy decided to keep it..
 

Offline loki42

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2022, 09:47:32 pm »
 

Offline Mangozac

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2022, 09:49:27 pm »
Hi Dave, I'm in the process of upgrading from my Kayo 1706 to a pair of Yamaha machines, so the 1706 will be available in January. http://en.kayosmt.com/index.php/Show/index/cid/342/id/291.html

The 1706 has been a great, cost effective machine for us to dip our toes into SMT but now that we've reached a point of critical mass we need more speed and advanced features, hence the upgrade. I'll be looking to sell it within your budget including a bunch of feeders. I'd budget approx $1500 to get it moved from SE QLD to Sydney.
 

Online EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2022, 10:10:46 pm »
EBay auction has ended but last I heard he still had them https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/265914573734?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-154756-20017-0&ssspo=7l-qpOOVQyW&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY i can give him a yell if you're keen.

They are enourmous. I doubt I'd even get that into the bunker. If I had a big warehouse, sure.
 

Online EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2022, 10:16:53 pm »
Hi Dave, I'm in the process of upgrading from my Kayo 1706 to a pair of Yamaha machines, so the 1706 will be available in January. http://en.kayosmt.com/index.php/Show/index/cid/342/id/291.html

The 1706 has been a great, cost effective machine for us to dip our toes into SMT but now that we've reached a point of critical mass we need more speed and advanced features, hence the upgrade. I'll be looking to sell it within your budget including a bunch of feeders. I'd budget approx $1500 to get it moved from SE QLD to Sydney.

Thanks, please keep me in the loop on this.
Main problem is this has to go into the bunker, and I've not kinda got my eye on the dungeon dowstairs as it's got ventilation and, well, it's just downstairs instead a walk across the business park.
Would have the check if it's physically possible of getting in the bunker though.
 
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Offline loki42

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2022, 10:37:25 pm »
The jukis are pretty tiny,  there's 2 of them in the first pic but maybe my standards are different... my Universal Genesis machines are at least 4 times size and weight. 
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2022, 10:45:33 pm »
Main problem is this has to go into the bunker, and I've not kinda got my eye on the dungeon dowstairs as it's got ventilation and, well, it's just downstairs instead a walk across the business park.
Would have the check if it's physically possible of getting in the bunker though.
Watch out for your floor type. Some of these machines can really shake the floor up, and annoy the neighbours, if not on a really solid concrete floor.
 

Offline Mangozac

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2022, 10:48:17 pm »
The jukis are pretty tiny,  there's 2 of them in the first pic but maybe my standards are different... my Universal Genesis machines are at least 4 times size and weight.
Plus they're a couple of generations old, with camera on a separate display and DOS OS, so not the most user friendly. IMO not the best option for starting out.
 

Online EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2022, 10:48:42 pm »
FYI, this is the one I missed, a TVM920 with over 40 Yamaha feeders.
Ideally this is what I'm after used. A unit small enough to get through a single door and sit on a desktop, but uses decent cartridge feeders for better reliability.
 

Offline Mangozac

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2022, 10:49:40 pm »
Thanks, please keep me in the loop on this.
Main problem is this has to go into the bunker, and I've not kinda got my eye on the dungeon dowstairs as it's got ventilation and, well, it's just downstairs instead a walk across the business park.
Would have the check if it's physically possible of getting in the bunker though.
No problem, let me know if you need any specific measurements for checking  :-+
 

Online EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2022, 10:50:23 pm »
The jukis are pretty tiny,  there's 2 of them in the first pic but maybe my standards are different... my Universal Genesis machines are at least 4 times size and weight.
Plus they're a couple of generations old, with camera on a separate display and DOS OS, so not the most user friendly. IMO not the best option for starting out.

If I had the room and they were super cheap then still an option.
But yeah, something smaller and more modern is a better option I think.
 

Online EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2022, 10:51:43 pm »
Main problem is this has to go into the bunker, and I've not kinda got my eye on the dungeon dowstairs as it's got ventilation and, well, it's just downstairs instead a walk across the business park.
Would have the check if it's physically possible of getting in the bunker though.
Watch out for your floor type. Some of these machines can really shake the floor up, and annoy the neighbours, if not on a really solid concrete floor.

Both my storage units are underground basement carpark concrete floor.
Getting ethernet installed in my dungeon tomorrow!
 

Offline Mangozac

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2022, 11:04:42 pm »
FYI, this is the one I missed, a TVM920 with over 40 Yamaha feeders.
Ideally this is what I'm after used. A unit small enough to get through a single door and sit on a desktop, but uses decent cartridge feeders for better reliability.
Yamaha/clone CL feeders are definitely the way to go. Sure, they have their limitations but if you're not going below 0603 size then nothing beats them for price and availability.
 

Offline jmelson

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2022, 11:21:07 pm »

They are enourmous. I doubt I'd even get that into the bunker. If I had a big warehouse, sure.
Well, I have a Quad QSA30A in my home basement.  See:  http://pico-systems.com/QSA30.html

I already had double doors installed for my previous machine.
Jon
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2022, 11:26:24 pm »
FYI, this is the one I missed, a TVM920 with over 40 Yamaha feeders.
Ideally this is what I'm after used. A unit small enough to get through a single door and sit on a desktop, but uses decent cartridge feeders for better reliability.
Yamaha/clone CL feeders are definitely the way to go. Sure, they have their limitations but if you're not going below 0603 size then nothing beats them for price and availability.
And how about 0402? For a lot of designs you can't avoid using 0402 in order to get the decoupling close enough to chips.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2022, 11:47:49 pm »
FYI, this is the one I missed, a TVM920 with over 40 Yamaha feeders.
Ideally this is what I'm after used. A unit small enough to get through a single door and sit on a desktop, but uses decent cartridge feeders for better reliability.
Yamaha/clone CL feeders are definitely the way to go. Sure, they have their limitations but if you're not going below 0603 size then nothing beats them for price and availability.
And how about 0402? For a lot of designs you can't avoid using 0402 in order to get the decoupling close enough to chips.

0402 is pretty essential these days. Avoid if possible of course, but a decent modern machine should be capable of it.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2022, 11:55:25 pm »
Aliexpress looks to be riddled with various P&P machines. There could be some interesting feedback amongst the machines that got sold. One of the things I'd look for is that a P&P machine has a closed loop servo position system instead of freerunning (open loop) steppers. Using open loop steppers is asking for trouble.
I'd disagree with that - unlike something like a CNC, where it has significant and not-always-predictable loading, the load on a P&P gantry is negligible and very predictable ( except when it crashes into something, which is mostly down to user error), so open-loop steppers are fine as long as  speed and acceleration aren't pushing the envelope.
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2022, 12:00:34 am »
Main problem is this has to go into the bunker, and I've not kinda got my eye on the dungeon dowstairs as it's got ventilation and, well, it's just downstairs instead a walk across the business park.
Would have the check if it's physically possible of getting in the bunker though.
Watch out for your floor type. Some of these machines can really shake the floor up, and annoy the neighbours, if not on a really solid concrete floor.

Both my storage units are underground basement carpark concrete floor.
Getting ethernet installed in my dungeon tomorrow!

How's the ventilation for reflow fumes ?
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Online nctnico

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2022, 12:02:01 am »
Aliexpress looks to be riddled with various P&P machines. There could be some interesting feedback amongst the machines that got sold. One of the things I'd look for is that a P&P machine has a closed loop servo position system instead of freerunning (open loop) steppers. Using open loop steppers is asking for trouble.
I'd disagree with that - unlike something like a CNC, where it has significant and not-always-predictable loading, the load on a P&P gantry is negligible and very predictable ( except when it crashes into something, which is mostly down to user error), so open-loop steppers are fine as long as  speed and acceleration aren't pushing the envelope.
The problem is right there in your last sentence. Imagine the lubrication runs dry and the steppers need to produce more torque than the designer anticipated. These kind of surprises are something that is easely overlooked in a cheap design. So on a cheaper system it is even more important to have closed loop position compared to a machine that has been designed properly by an engineering team that knows the margins required to maintain good operation. The NeoDen YY1 as discussed in another thread seems to be a perfect example to show why open loop steppers are not good. Given the prices of the systems Dave has proposed in the first posting, there seems to be very little reason to not get a P&P with a closed loop positioning system.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2022, 12:11:07 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline loki42

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2022, 12:04:51 am »
That Juki is :
1400 * 1440 * 1460H
Weight: 1100 ㎏

Though yeah, it's old and used but you can see it running and get some training on how to use it. The Phillips emeralds etc are a similar size, and for any of those machines you'll need a decent amount of dry air. A lot of the smaller stuff is single phase too.  Just make sure the machine places what you need to place. I needed 88 mm feeders and trays which meant I basically needed a machine that specialised in odd form. Check the max height of stuff like inductors and how many of each feeder size you'll need. Check how many feeder slots things need too. For my machine 8mm feeders are dual lane (reels on top of each other) and take 1 slot and 12mm takes 1 slot. 16,24,32 take 2 slots. 44 takes 3.

Stencil printing for smaller parts gets hard. I swapped out a 0.3mm pitch BGA because I was having trouble keeping the stencil clean enough for it to be reliable.  I'm pretty sure I don't know what I'm doing with stencil cleaning though...
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2022, 12:14:55 am »
Main problem is this has to go into the bunker, and I've not kinda got my eye on the dungeon dowstairs as it's got ventilation and, well, it's just downstairs instead a walk across the business park.
Would have the check if it's physically possible of getting in the bunker though.
Watch out for your floor type. Some of these machines can really shake the floor up, and annoy the neighbours, if not on a really solid concrete floor.

Both my storage units are underground basement carpark concrete floor.
Getting ethernet installed in my dungeon tomorrow!

How's the ventilation for reflow fumes ?
That is another good question. How about stencil printing and a reflow oven? Running a reflow oven will require a ventilation system. I still recall a board getting stuck in the reflow oven at one of my former employers. Almost the entire building (2 stories high, probably some 800 square meters) smelled of burned PCB despite having ventilation.

There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Whales

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2022, 12:36:49 am »
I hope Charmhigh are better now compared to what UnexpectedMaker experienced.  Summary (from memory, please correct me if I'm wrong): poor part placement reliability + they couldn't solve the problems for him, he ended up wasting lots of time and money.  Then he bought a Neoden and has been happy with that.

EDIT: Description from one of his videos:
Quote
More money being spent on this pick and place just to make it do even basic tasks, and no communication from Charmhigh after publicly stating they wanted this resolved.

It's just lie after lie from Charmhigh - I've really had enough.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2022, 12:39:26 am by Whales »
 

Offline Jackster

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2022, 12:45:55 am »
I hope Charmhigh are better now compared to what UnexpectedMaker experienced.  Summary (from memory, please correct me if I'm wrong): poor part placement reliability + they couldn't solve the problems for him, he ended up wasting lots of time and money.  Then he bought a Neoden and has been happy with that.

EDIT: Description from one of his videos:
Quote
More money being spent on this pick and place just to make it do even basic tasks, and no communication from Charmhigh after publicly stating they wanted this resolved.

It's just lie after lie from Charmhigh - I've really had enough.

Might want to check his recent videos about his NeoDen machine...

Offline Mangozac

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2022, 12:58:54 am »
And how about 0402? For a lot of designs you can't avoid using 0402 in order to get the decoupling close enough to chips.
You can get the 8x2mm CL feeders that will do 0402 and in theory the Chinese machines using the CL feeders will place them OK. I've never tried it though - we simply don't do the kind of stuff that needs parts that small.
 

Offline Whales

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2022, 01:00:36 am »
I hope Charmhigh are better now compared to what UnexpectedMaker experienced.  Summary (from memory, please correct me if I'm wrong): poor part placement reliability + they couldn't solve the problems for him, he ended up wasting lots of time and money.  Then he bought a Neoden and has been happy with that.

EDIT: Description from one of his videos:
Quote
More money being spent on this pick and place just to make it do even basic tasks, and no communication from Charmhigh after publicly stating they wanted this resolved.

It's just lie after lie from Charmhigh - I've really had enough.

Might want to check his recent videos about his NeoDen machine...

These are the only two Unexpected Maker Neoden videos I can find.  They seem to be praise?  Are there others I have not found?



EDIT:
Quote
20:30: I'm super wrapped with the quality of the machine
Quote
No, this video is not sponsored by Neoden ;) but both Neoden and EMLogic have given me such fantastic service and support - during the S1 saga and leading up to, and post the Neoden 8 purchase, that I honestly feel they deserve any business I can drum up for them.

EDIT2: This one is the closest to negative I can find.  Faulty parts from shipping damage, they tried doing remote debugging via video chat, returns for repairs being processed.  Separate reflow oven unit not working correctly.

« Last Edit: November 30, 2022, 01:24:17 am by Whales »
 

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2022, 01:36:10 am »
How's the ventilation for reflow fumes ?

Dungeon has a vent into the car park, fresh air is pumped in 24/7 from external location via ducting.
The bigger bunker does not have a vent, but does have external fresh air pumped in. Could drill a hole through the besser block wall and install a vent though, I doubt anyone would notice.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2022, 01:38:23 am »
I don't think stencil printing is a big issue for small quantities if you're not going below about 0.5mm pitch. I use the Eurocircuits printer, which is built with complete overkill - I have no doubt you could get similar performance at much lower cost
https://be.eurocircuits.com/shop/offtheshelf/product.aspx?ad=13777&ano=ec-stencil-mate&an=ec-stencil-mate&s=ec-prototype-equipment

It uses pin alignment with a couple of tooling holes in a frameless stencil, which can be tensioned. There is no x/y/theta adjustment and I've never felt the need for one ( except the time  I forgot to put tooling holes in a couple of stencils!), the pin alignment works fine even on PCBs up to about 300x250mm.

Using a framed stencil would remove the need for tensioning if you want to keep things simple, though for smaller boards you can get away without tensioning if you can keep everything nice & flat & fix the stencil down
 
« Last Edit: November 30, 2022, 01:48:23 am by mikeselectricstuff »
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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2022, 01:42:18 am »
These are the only two Unexpected Maker Neoden videos I can find.  They seem to be praise?  Are there others I have not found?

He says don't buy one.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/neoden-yy1-pick-and-place-machine-with-under-$3k-price-for-hobbiestlow-vol-usag/msg4531682/#msg4531682
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2022, 01:47:24 am »
How's the ventilation for reflow fumes ?

Dungeon has a vent into the car park, fresh air is pumped in 24/7 from external location via ducting.
The bigger bunker does not have a vent, but does have external fresh air pumped in. Could drill a hole through the besser block wall and install a vent though, I doubt anyone would notice.
That would be fine - for the odd board or two you can get away without ventilation if you don't mind a bit of a smell, just avoid "incinerate" mode!  A fallback timeout on the oven is highly recommended.
I use a Sanyo toaster oven on a variac, run at about 60%, a kitchen timer to prompt me to go watch it after 4 minutes and turn off when flowed,  and the internal timer on the oven set to 6 mins as a fallback.
You ideally want an oven with elements top & bottom,  a nice big window, and a tray that comes out as you open the door.

If I had to replace this oven I'd probably look at something with a circulation fan.

For larger boards I have a commercial pizza oven which I modded with a homemade hinged door with some stove glass
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Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2022, 02:04:03 am »
Dave, I'm sure you went through my blog post and will notice that my machine main criteria was the door width of 80cm which I think yours should be around there too unless Aussie door is even smaller than that. There's not many machine that go go through that width unless it's a little Fox from Essemtec. Even with my unit, I had that disassemble the top half and then tilt the machine 90 degree to go through. And all that with 5 men help to move it. There's a new unit from Bovi/Kayo (Bovi sells inside China, Kayo sell to outside of China) similar to mine but without any cover that weigh around 100 kg (mine is 250 kg) but I haven't check the dimensions yet (we need to know your dimension limitation to begin with). I don't have the listing (in the midst of production at the moment!) outside of China yet but on Taobao it is priced RMB42800 with the CL feeders. I will post a link once I finish my work later today.
 
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Offline asmi

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2022, 04:06:56 am »
That Juki is :
1400 * 1440 * 1460H
Weight: 1100 ㎏
Lol are you seriously offering a 1100 kg machine instead of 20-30 kg one? :-DD

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2022, 04:34:08 am »
Dave, I'm sure you went through my blog post and will notice that my machine main criteria was the door width of 80cm which I think yours should be around there too unless Aussie door is even smaller than that. There's not many machine that go go through that width unless it's a little Fox from Essemtec. Even with my unit, I had that disassemble the top half and then tilt the machine 90 degree to go through. And all that with 5 men help to move it. There's a new unit from Bovi/Kayo (Bovi sells inside China, Kayo sell to outside of China) similar to mine but without any cover that weigh around 100 kg (mine is 250 kg) but I haven't check the dimensions yet (we need to know your dimension limitation to begin with). I don't have the listing (in the midst of production at the moment!) outside of China yet but on Taobao it is priced RMB42800 with the CL feeders. I will post a link once I finish my work later today.

Yes, noticed that. My dungeon door is just under 80cm.
The one I just bid on and lost was a little bit over that, but you tilted it over then it could have fitted.
My bunker has double doors, but a narrowish hallway.
 

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2022, 04:35:04 am »
If I had to replace this oven I'd probably look at something with a circulation fan.

I'd be willing to spent a decent bit for a good oven I think.
This one looks quite schmick: https://www.itechsmt.com/products/rf-b530c-reflow-oven
 

Offline loki42

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2022, 09:02:16 am »
That Juki is :
1400 * 1440 * 1460H
Weight: 1100 ㎏
Lol are you seriously offering a 1100 kg machine instead of 20-30 kg one? :-DD

Yeah, at a lower price point you're getting 37 X more machine... weight wise ;) I also think if he could fit it it's a decent machine that actually works and has actually put down a lot of parts. Though if it's too big it's too big. I was massively limited in oven selection because I needed my total line length to be under 12 meters so I understand size constraints. All the cheap / good ovens are giant.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2022, 09:43:15 am »
If I had to replace this oven I'd probably look at something with a circulation fan.

I'd be willing to spent a decent bit for a good oven I think.
This one looks quite schmick: https://www.itechsmt.com/products/rf-b530c-reflow-oven
You noticed the 7kW startup power spec, right?
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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #45 on: November 30, 2022, 09:51:13 am »
If I had to replace this oven I'd probably look at something with a circulation fan.

I'd be willing to spent a decent bit for a good oven I think.
This one looks quite schmick: https://www.itechsmt.com/products/rf-b530c-reflow-oven
You noticed the 7kW startup power spec, right?

Nope, didn't look that far!
Kinda need a PnP machine first.
 

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #46 on: November 30, 2022, 03:55:05 pm »
Autotronik makes fairly small, kind of desktop P&P machines: BS281 (https://www.autotronik-smt.de/en/products/smd-bestueckungsautomat/bestueckungsautomat-bs281s), but I'm fairly sure it's more expensive than USD$5k, even for a 2nd hand.
 

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #47 on: December 01, 2022, 12:15:42 am »
So, you are okay having an air compressor in the place? Those smaller machine usually doesn't need one as they have a small pump built-in and of course it's feeder system doesn't use them (drag feeder). Those with Yamaha CL feeders usually requires an external air compressor.

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #48 on: December 01, 2022, 12:18:42 am »
So, you are okay having an air compressor in the place? Those smaller machine usually doesn't need one as they have a small pump built-in and of course it's feeder system doesn't use them (drag feeder). Those with Yamaha CL feeders usually requires an external air compressor.
I can't imagine they use much air though , so a small & cheap compressor would probably be enough
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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #49 on: December 01, 2022, 12:22:32 am »
0402 is pretty essential these days. Avoid if possible of course, but a decent modern machine should be capable of it.
Don't delay, or you'll need something that can handle 0201. :)

More seriously, quite a few interesting parts that are made predominantly for the mobile market are only available in chip scale packages. I've found it really frustrating when those had to be avoided, because of assembly machine limitations. I find hat a bigger issue than the handling of small passives.
 

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #50 on: December 01, 2022, 01:22:43 am »
I can't imagine they use much air though , so a small & cheap compressor would probably be enough

I have a 100L tank and the air compressor turns on every 20-30 mins when I have my machine going full whack with around 30-40 components loaded.

Dave will need one of those "silent" dental-style ones for sure.

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #51 on: December 01, 2022, 01:57:18 am »
I can't imagine they use much air though , so a small & cheap compressor would probably be enough

I have a 100L tank and the air compressor turns on every 20-30 mins when I have my machine going full whack with around 30-40 components loaded.

Dave will need one of those "silent" dental-style ones for sure.
And these are oil-free as well AFAIK. Dirt cheap too but they do have a limited life span.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #52 on: December 01, 2022, 08:44:19 am »
I use this compressor for the Loader, Printer, PnP, and Unloader.



They also have a 60L in a cabinet. That reduces the sound even more.
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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #53 on: December 01, 2022, 04:06:11 pm »
I can't imagine they use much air though , so a small & cheap compressor would probably be enough

I have a 100L tank and the air compressor turns on every 20-30 mins when I have my machine going full whack with around 30-40 components loaded.

Dave will need one of those "silent" dental-style ones for sure.
And these are oil-free as well AFAIK. Dirt cheap too but they do have a limited life span.
Every time I see a proposal for energy storage based on gas compression, one of the alarm bells they ring about viability goes back to this point. Simply compressing a little air for a workshop has real problems of reliability, life, maintenance and noise. How could that scale?
 

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #54 on: December 01, 2022, 06:01:58 pm »
I can't imagine they use much air though , so a small & cheap compressor would probably be enough

I have a 100L tank and the air compressor turns on every 20-30 mins when I have my machine going full whack with around 30-40 components loaded.

Dave will need one of those "silent" dental-style ones for sure.
And these are oil-free as well AFAIK. Dirt cheap too but they do have a limited life span.
Every time I see a proposal for energy storage based on gas compression, one of the alarm bells they ring about viability goes back to this point. Simply compressing a little air for a workshop has real problems of reliability, life, maintenance and noise. How could that scale?
That is a different discussion. You can buy compressors that have a long life but you'll pay a lot of money for those. It just isn't worth it to spend that much if you need a little bit of compressed air every now and then (especially when you retrofit a compressor with a better cut-off switch and pressure reducer valve). OTOH I doubt you'll ever see one of those cheap compressors in a workshop or garage for example. They'd probably need to replace it every year while a quality compressor from Atlas Copco will easely last 20 years with very little maintenance. However, that Atlas Copco is about 10 times more expensive.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2022, 09:57:34 pm by nctnico »
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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #55 on: December 02, 2022, 01:14:39 am »

You can buy compressors that have a long life but you'll pay a lot of money for those. It just isn't worth it to spend that much if you need a little bit of compressed air every now and then (especially when you retrofit a compressor with a better cut-off switch and pressure reducer valve). OTOH I doubt you'll ever see one of those cheap compressors in a workshop or garage for example. They'd probably need to replace it every year while a quality compressor from Atlas Copco will easely last 20 years with very little maintenance. However, that Atlas Copco is about 10 times more expensive.
I have a Quincy compressor that I think was built in 1968 or so, and was used to run wire wrap tools at a phone exchange.  I found it upside down in a scrapyard.  It had a pneumatic unloader. so the motor ran all the time it was turned on, likely 8 hours/workday, so about 2800 hours/year.  It still runs fine!  It has a pretty small tank, so it runs about every 10 minutes, as there are some air leaks.  When my P&P is running, it cycles on every couple minutes.
Jon
 

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #56 on: December 02, 2022, 02:19:53 am »
I have a dumpster compressor.
 

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #57 on: December 02, 2022, 04:32:38 am »
I have a dumpster compressor.

On top of the compressor there is a large suck hole with thread in it. There should be an air filter / silencer combination in there.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2022, 06:06:55 pm by Doctorandus_P »
 

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #58 on: December 02, 2022, 06:43:13 am »
On top of the compressor there is a large suck hole with thread in it. There should be an air filter / silencer combination in there.

Yes, I've replaced that and am getting a new guage. Probably going to be too loud for this use, but we'll see.
As for the compressor pressure, how is that regulated on a PnP machine? Does the pump have to do that or does the machine do it?
 

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #59 on: December 02, 2022, 10:43:43 am »
There's usually a pressure regulator on the PNP machine (even on my poor Mechatronika machine, which I have reverse engineered and wrote my own software for it).
Vacuum is generated via a venturi module that is driven by a solenoid.
 
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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #60 on: December 02, 2022, 05:08:57 pm »
On top of the compressor there is a large suck hole with thread in it. There should be an air filter / silencer combination in there.

Yes, I've replaced that and am getting a new guage. Probably going to be too loud for this use, but we'll see.
As for the compressor pressure, how is that regulated on a PnP machine? Does the pump have to do that or does the machine do it?
The small gauge on the right is fitted into a pressure regulator valve. You can turn the knob (after lifting it up to unlock) to increase / decrease the output pressure. Clockwise is typically a higher pressure. The big guage will read the tank pressure, the small guage the output pressure.

Oh, and always use the shut-off valve to switch a compressor on / off. On yours you have to push or pull the red knob. When it shuts off, the pressure on the valves is released so these are not continously strained. There is some hissing involved, but don't worry, Karen won't hit you.

What is missing, is a water seperator & filter unit. It is a good idea to add one but ideally this is placed before the pressure regulator.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2022, 05:21:42 pm by nctnico »
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Offline Kleinstein

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #61 on: December 02, 2022, 07:16:28 pm »
The switch part is a pressure switch and mains switch. It should turn off at some 8 bar and on again at some 6 bar. Normally the cap should have srews to hold in place and the knob on top is the on/off switch. No solonoid - just pure mechanics to operate a kind of contactor and the relief valve (see below).

The small valve near the leakage area is the over pressure safty valve. I would not expect that one to leak at low pressure - they may get an issue just before engaging, but usually not at low pressure.

To be on the safe side, maybe have a good look at the tanks for corrosion / cracks near welds. A failing tank can be pretty dangerous, though the usual regulations ( not so sure about China) require them to use mild steel so that it should fail in a less spectecular way (usually just a leak at a weld ot the lower side so that it sprays a mix of water and oil).

Under the pressure valve there is a relief valve to help the motor to start. This valve may leak a little at low pressure. If not too much this would not be an issue to really worry about, as this would be only rather temporary on start.

The input air filter is missing and this causes quite some additional noise. That one is relatively easy to replace.

A point to check if the compressor itself is still reasonable working is to run it until the pressure switch turns off. From the time an vessel volume one can calculate the speed. From a rough calculation it should take some 2 minutes. Even if the pump part still runs and makes noise, it may not pump well anymore.  Other common failure modes are a bad motor capacitor (rel. easy to fix) and the check valve, so that the relief valve will let to much air out when off (also often fixable).

The left pressure guage is for the pressure in the tank and the right one is for the output, after the reduction valve.
 

Offline MR

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #62 on: December 02, 2022, 11:03:40 pm »
Use an oil free compressor only, also to protect your health.
 
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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #63 on: December 13, 2022, 11:01:11 am »
I've been looking at these pnp machines for some time now
Found the TornadoSMT from openpnp.cn - but I can't seem to find any info about it, not even on EEVBlog

Is it only for the chinese marked?

/Hans
 

Offline NF6X

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #64 on: January 29, 2023, 06:21:17 pm »
I'm curious about the low-end desktop pick and place machines as a mechanical starting point for building an OpenPnP conversion. Yeah, I know they are not suitable for contract manufacture. I'm a hobbyist who might decide to make a handful of things to sell on Etsy for beer money, with no expectation of recovering the cost of the machine. At the moment, I'm particularly curious about the Zhengbang ZB3245TS, iTech PPM-A320VB, and YX SMT330-X. Does anybody here understand how all of these different brands relate to each other?

Given that the iTech store listings on AliExpress self-identify as Zhengbang, it's apparent that the iTech one is the same machine as the Zhengbang one with a different coat of paint. I presume iTech is just a brand they created to sound more western. Is Zhengbang the actual manufacturer of these machines?

What about YX? Do they manufacture anything, or are they just a reseller of rebadged machines? Do they offer better/worse/different after-sale support than the manufacturers of their machines?

As a USA person who would run the machine once to see if it's DOA before starting to rip stuff out and rebuild it as an OpenPnP machine, would it make any difference at all whether I bought from a Zhengbang, iTech, or YX listing?

I understand that there is a US-based Neoden reseller, and that's kind of appealing. But I don't like design features of the YY1, and their more capable machines are out of my price range at this time.

Based on Unexpected Maker's experience, I do not want to give money to Charmhigh. Their behavior during his ordeal went beyond poor customer service; the "you're making us look bad" position was downright sociopathic. Does Charmhigh stand out as being particularly bad in that respect, or is that mindset common in the manufacturers and sellers of these low-end made-for-export machines?

Restoring and possibly converting a "real" commercial machine might be fun, but I don't have room for one of those beasts right now. Maybe someday.

Is AliExpress the preferred place for a USA buyer to start the ordeal adventure of owning one of these machines?
 

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #65 on: January 30, 2023, 01:12:13 am »
Given that the iTech store listings on AliExpress self-identify as Zhengbang, it's apparent that the iTech one is the same machine as the Zhengbang one with a different coat of paint. I presume iTech is just a brand they created to sound more western. Is Zhengbang the actual manufacturer of these machines?

I believe that's the case but don't quote me on that.
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #66 on: January 30, 2023, 02:34:10 am »
All made by ZhengBang. The rest are just reseller. Earlier in their business, ZhengBang even OEM from HWGC for their larger machines.
 
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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #67 on: January 30, 2023, 09:56:53 am »
What about YX? Do they manufacture anything, or are they just a reseller of rebadged machines? Do they offer better/worse/different after-sale support than the manufacturers of their machines?

YX resells HWGC machines. They are a little cheaper and use a few lower-quality parts.

Offline NF6X

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #68 on: January 30, 2023, 04:27:49 pm »
The worst complaints I see about the Neoden YY1 seem to be about the cover tape peeling mechanism being fiddly, inconsistent, and unreliable. Is the YY1 any worse in that regard than the other drag feed systems with a single motor for a whole row of cover tape peelers, or is that just a general failing of all of them?

What machine might be considered the cheapest non-sucky machine with CL-style feeders? Obviously, that Charmhigh machine is right out. Are the cheap CL feeders from China acceptable when driven by a machine with better pneumatic control and more secure mounting than the Charmhigh machine, or are they all junk?
 

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #69 on: January 30, 2023, 07:46:07 pm »
The SMTmax QM1100-B is listed at $10k on eBay, which is twice Dave's budget and also the price range I've been looking in. It's not clear whether that price includes any feeders. I don't know how much their QM1100 drag feeder machine costs yet. They claim it's made in USA, and it turns out that their headquarters where they say they make it is a short drive from me. Hmm, I should see if they're hiring.  ;D

Those machines don't look very fast in their YouTube videos, with very noticeable pauses after each motion, particularly over the camera. The mechanical portion doesn't look too cheesy, so I wonder if they might make a good foundation for souping up with better motion control, faster machine vision processing, etc.?

Edit: I asked SMTmax about their eBay listing, and they replied that the listing price does not include feeders.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2023, 08:45:39 pm by NF6X »
 

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #70 on: January 30, 2023, 10:57:16 pm »
The SMTmax QM1100-B is listed at $10k on eBay, which is twice Dave's budget and also the price range I've been looking in. It's not clear whether that price includes any feeders. I don't know how much their QM1100 drag feeder machine costs yet. They claim it's made in USA, and it turns out that their headquarters where they say they make it is a short drive from me. Hmm, I should see if they're hiring.  ;D

Those machines don't look very fast in their YouTube videos, with very noticeable pauses after each motion, particularly over the camera. The mechanical portion doesn't look too cheesy, so I wonder if they might make a good foundation for souping up with better motion control, faster machine vision processing, etc.?

Edit: I asked SMTmax about their eBay listing, and they replied that the listing price does not include feeders.

Does seem a bit pedestrian. But I see Festo branded railing, that can't be cheap, hence the price tag for what is an average looking desktop entry level machine.
They don't say if the feeders are Yamaha or other compatible.

https://www.smtmax.com/pdf/QM1100-BDS.pdf

 

Offline NF6X

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #71 on: January 30, 2023, 11:21:52 pm »
The feeders look like Yamaha CL clones to my inexperienced eye. They quoted 8mm feeders starting at $165 (US) when they replied to my question on eBay, so I assume they're probably typical China CL clones like I see on AliExpress for $75 and up, with shipping and duties and US market markup.

They offered to have me drop by their plant to see their machines since I'm close. I don't want to waste their time since I'm not ready to drop $15k+ on a machine right now. But I've been thinking of getting a CL clone or three just to play around with and understand them better, so maybe I'll buy an already-imported one from them, and go to their factory to pick it up and see their machines?

Anyway, as long as I was talking to them on eBay, I asked if they need another engineer. He said he didn't know if they were hiring, but I could send in my resume and he'd hand it over to his supervisor. Applying for a job over eBay may be one of the weirdest things I've done so far.

Regarding the machine's performance in the YouTube videos, it's the pauses between motions and especially over the camera that make me wonder if it's just stopping to think about its next move. Maybe its motion control isn't too sophisticated, and the machine vision stuff is slow? That seems like stuff that might be improved a lot as long as the mechanical parts are solid. I especially wondered about the pauses after placing each component, since it's not like it has to dwell in the air to prevent knocking the part off the nozzle.
 

Offline girts

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #72 on: January 30, 2023, 11:31:27 pm »
Forget about these QM-s.
Had a previous version since 2011.
1) Actually that is Chinese software they use,
2) very heavy moving part which shakes everything around like earthquake,
3) stupid vision strategy with a lot of pictures you must take for each feeder,
and so on.
 
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Offline NF6X

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #73 on: January 30, 2023, 11:40:58 pm »
The Chinese software doesn't surprise me, since one of their optional items in the price list they sent me is "Windows 7 desktop computer". (!!) Even if they have developed their own software in the USA as they claim, this makes me question how well maintained it is.

If I were to buy one of the SMTmax machines or one of the $5k China import machines, I just take it for granted that I'd begin an OpenPnP retrofit immediately. That might include ripping out cameras and motor controllers to replace them with ones that will work with OpenPnP on a Linux machine, and I wonder whether it's worth using one of those machines as a mechanical starting point vs. making a machine from scratch?
 

Offline jmelson

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #74 on: January 31, 2023, 05:00:19 pm »
Regarding the machine's performance in the YouTube videos, it's the pauses between motions and especially over the camera that make me wonder if it's just stopping to think about its next move.
WOW!  FIVE whole seconds for the vision capture!  My Quad QSA30A does the alignment on the fly while moving from feeder area to board area in a fraction of a second, and EVERY component is centered with the vision system.  I don't think I'd want any less.  The vision inspection also detects flipped/sideways component pickups, too.
Jon
 

Offline NF6X

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #75 on: January 31, 2023, 05:04:52 pm »
Yeah! I see much better performance in folks' videos of their OpenPnP builds. I wonder if the SMTmax machines have been updated since those videos were made?

Incidentally, I decided to order a CL feeder clone from YX through eBay, just to experiment with. I've never had my hands on a real feeder. Jim really wanted to upsell me to a whole SMT550 machine with some free feeders thrown in. It's a shame that I don't have the cash handy for that right now. I don't think I have room in my tiny lab for a conveyer machine, anyway.
 

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #76 on: May 25, 2023, 04:28:14 am »
The same machine that I was keen on last time that got pulled from the market is up for sale again.

Quote
Madell PX3700 SMT Pick & Place
-2 Camera system
-added vacuum table
- Large range of cassettes to cover many component sizes.
Lots of Extras
complete system that needs TLC
Madell AE-R330A IR Oven
Working conveyor system

$1k starting bid, Buy it Now $5k
Plus travel cost to go pick it up in Canberra.

Who thinks I should get this?

On the one hand I could get it cheap, with a lot of feeders.
On the other hand I can't really find any info on this, seems like a really old model, and I doubt there is any community support.
Also, any videos on it do not help the community as much as getting say a YY1 and playing (struggling?) with that?
Also, the 5 stage oven is nice, but it's 6kW and I don't have the power infrastructure for that in my dungeon or bunker. So it's effectively useless, I wouldn't even take it. Nor could it fit in my car.

Thoughts please, 3 days left.
 

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #77 on: May 25, 2023, 04:29:16 am »
more photos:
 

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #78 on: May 25, 2023, 04:33:57 am »
More
 

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #79 on: May 25, 2023, 04:36:21 am »
I found the info page. 2012 vintage, Windows XP
http://www.madelltech.com/PX3700.html
 

Offline MR

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #80 on: May 25, 2023, 07:20:35 am »
Forget commercial single head pick and place machines immediately! They aren't worth any money on the market anymore. Maybe 100$ for the used aluminum profiles might be worth it.

If someone sells a new single head pick and place machine that just shows that they don't care about the customers and never kept going on with adding more heads. I wouldn't even dare to list a single head machine on a webshop anymore in 2023

From the videos I see they're using CVBS cameras (I might be wrong but it looks like that), those cost 10$ on ali-express (but also support AHD already, so they might be even cheaper on taobao). A decent USB adapter with good CVBS chip costs like 70-100$, but it's absolutely outdated for component recognition.
The problem with CVBS is interlacing you have to wait until the picture is stable, which makes the machine even slower (in theory around 30-40ms until 2 half frames are matched)

The camera lenses aren't well selected either, the top head almost looks like a fish-eye camera

That guy made a nice video:


I agree with everything he says, and there's still more to say of course.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2023, 08:58:20 am by MR »
 

Offline Styno

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #81 on: May 25, 2023, 09:41:38 am »
Dave, you really have to ask yourself again why you are buying a low-end pick and place machine. It's easy to look at the mechanical and financial part of a pick and place machine, but that says nothing about the value of the machine to you. The XYZ mechanical part of a low end p&p is nothing special, there's not much different than a 3D printer and the difference between a usable and bad p&p is mostly determined by the feeders, optical part recognition and software.

If you do it for our educational value: well, no-one uses or buys this particular machine so who will benefit from you tinkering and face palming with it?

If you do it for production of your own designs then I think you also should look somewhere else. Granted, I don't have experience or seen any reviews of this brand/machine but, if you want to have a machine that helps you, you need good feeders with reliable picking of parts. Newer parts are getting smaller and smaller so you need feeders that are at least capable of handling 0201 well so it will do 0402 really reliably so you don't spend your time fiddling with the feeders. The part recognition should also be flexible to adapt to non-symetric footprints and small pitch components. Otherwise you will have to do a lot of rework or manual placement of odd parts. See it in action, bring your own design to their place and have them setup one of the challenging parts and see how easy the process is and how well the machine is handling it. Can't do that? Well, don't buy it unless you know from other reviews it's going to be suitable for you.

Don't buy a machine just because it's cheap! I hope this helps...
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #82 on: May 25, 2023, 09:53:56 am »
In terms of content, I think a  YY1 would be of far more value to more people. Publicity on its flaws may even prompt Neoden to improve things.
A rare old machine like this could end up being a millstone - any numbee of minor issues could render it unuseable and unrepairable
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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #83 on: May 25, 2023, 10:26:22 am »
In terms of content, I think a  YY1 would be of far more value to more people. Publicity on its flaws may even prompt Neoden to improve things.
A rare old machine like this could end up being a millstone - any numbee of minor issues could render it unuseable and unrepairable

That's what my gut tells me.
Also, I'm liking the look of the Neoden coveyor oven. Pricey, but looks very nice and doesn't take much power.
https://neodenusa.com/smt-reflow-ovens/neoden-in6




 

Offline edu.vg82

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #84 on: May 25, 2023, 11:18:18 am »
Hi, i buy zengbang ZB3245TS a year ago. The machine works ok, but i see some "problems".
  - It need and air compresor only to pull down the needle than move the components strip... better electric alternatives exists.
  - It use 2 analog cameras (with creepy resolution) connected to an adquisition board... really, with the amaizing and cheap amount of USB cameras avaliable?
  - The software (IMHO) is a real shit.

Im triying to use it with openpnp, or make a new software to control it, but without broke or change the machine, at least until it is fully operational, i work with it and no downtime is allowed. One software works in a reliable way i try to improbe cameras or other thinks.

Im currently analyzing the protocol (serial port. looks like plain text ). If anyone have this machine and is interested, or have any information please leave a message.

 

Offline asmi

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #85 on: May 25, 2023, 01:21:28 pm »
Also, I'm liking the look of the Neoden coveyor oven. Pricey, but looks very nice and doesn't take much power.
It's actually about 2.5K$ + shipping in Neoden's Aliexpress store. To Canada express shipping via DHL is about 1.5K$, but you should check how much it's going to cost for you - unless you have Neoden's resellers locally, in which case I would buy from them even if it would be more expensive - because in that case you will have someone local to call up should something go wrong. Also I seem to recall your fellow countryman @sean was/is using that oven a lot, so he might have something to say about it. I used to watch his streams back when I had a bit more spare time to do so, and I remember in the beginning he had some issues with firmware, but after update things started working just fine. Some people here also complained about burning out heating elements, but that seems to be specific to 120 V version (due to larger current perhaps), and even there it doesn't seem to happen that often. This oven would be my number 1 choice should I ever outgrow my current drawer-style oven.
 
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Offline loki42

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #86 on: May 25, 2023, 10:25:02 pm »
If you really want one for youtube content buy what ever Chinese one is popular today.  You can also drop in to anyone with a mainstream machine to see how they are meant to work.  You're welcome to setup some boards on mine if you want.  I just bought another 37 spindle machine (2 beams) to complement my 30 spindle,  so my 11 spindle is going to be idle until I get it doing  PTH insertion. You can often pick up decent machines for next to nothing at auction if you're fine with second hand.
 

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #87 on: May 26, 2023, 12:57:35 am »
If you really want one for youtube content buy what ever Chinese one is popular today. 

Only two major choices really, the YY1 or the LumenPnP
 

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #88 on: May 26, 2023, 04:27:30 am »
Only two major choices really, the YY1 or the LumenPnP

I recommend looking at Charmhigh.
I have the old CHMT28 no vision and produced thousands of board over the past few years.
I'm looking to upgrade mostly because CHMT28 only has 17 feeders and I could use quite a bit more.
The friction feeders where the main problem in the past but I upgraded mine to the newer ones that have two small hex screws in each film collector wheel and you can adjust friction and for me those work great.
The YY1 not only has no friction adjustment (just some fixed friction rings that will never work as it was the case for the ones that initially came with my machine).
The YY1 is also way to slow for my needs half of less the speed of my current machine.
I'm looking at the CHMT48VA witch is the same as the CHMT36VA you where considering it is just that it has a built in Linux computer and 7" LCD and for me that is worth the extra cost as I do not want to deal with a separate computer and Windows. From what I understand on the 36VA the video is sent over USB and the two cameras are multiplexed so there are sometime some issues because of that. The embedded computer in the 48VA has separate access to each camera.
If you need more than 22 - 8mm + 4x - 12mm + 2x - 16mm and 1x 24mm the you can look at the VB variants instead of VA as those have double that with feeders on both side of the machine. I do not need more than VA and I'm also quite limited in space.
The other option I was looking at is the Tronstol E1 as it seems the most advanced but is a bit new and likely not quite ready at this time.
The Tronstol E1 compared to all others in this class has laser sensors (they call this 3D CCD fly-ing camera) so it can check the position of components for both head without the need to go to a dedicated camera (faster) and it only works for passives with two pins.
The other plus is the grating ruler for both X and Y also not available on any of the others.
It also has a 5 position head nozzle changer but not sure if the software for that is ready based on some reviews I seen.
They also have an oven MR30 that is fairly good for low volume. The oven will likely not be the limiting factor and the Neoden oven is best value if you need relatively high volume.
Tronstol is somehow associated with Neoden or part of Neoden.
I will likely go with Charmhigh CHMT48VA in about 2 months unless I find something better. I know that will work and I have little if anything to learn.
 
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Offline huababua

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #89 on: May 26, 2023, 03:41:32 pm »
Who thinks I should get this?

If you go for an (old) used one, I would really go for a more known brand like a Juki KLE2040 or a Yamaha/Samsung.
There are plenty of spare parts available and you also get SW/troubleshooting support as these machines are commonly used.

For a new one, definetly get one with "real" feeders. From taking pictures and moving parts around every machine can to it nowadays. But when you want to have at least a baseline of reliability I would go for a machine with feeders.
 

Offline Dacian

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #90 on: May 26, 2023, 04:35:46 pm »
For a new one, definetly get one with "real" feeders. From taking pictures and moving parts around every machine can to it nowadays. But when you want to have at least a baseline of reliability I would go for a machine with feeders.

A new one with "real" feeders will be at least double the proposed budget of 5k$.
Electric feeders will be even more expensive and the pneumatic ones "clones" are not without issues and require an external compressor (can be fairly noisy and adds extra cost and complexity).
This simpler pick an place like the Charmhigh that I own and operate will do the job once they are properly setup.
The machine works for hours with no interventions other that when I need to change a reel of components. The more complex the machine the more things that can go wrong.
For this machine's what creates the problems is the friction film collectors and since I upgraded to the ones that have hex screws to adjust the friction everything works great with occasionally every few days needing to adjust friction on one of them (takes 10 seconds to reduce the friction if it pulls components out or increase the friction if the film is not collected).
Once you used a full reel the collected film needs to be removed from the spool and takes also maybe 10 seconds to do that.
I do not understand the film collection on Neoden YY1 and similar model's (that film will be all over the place likely interfering with operation or you need to always trim it). But the complain I heard about that is the glue on the film makes it so that it accumulates on that rollers and then it no longer works properly and gets the film the wrong way as film has basically no weight.
I like the Neoden YY1 if it was not for the slow speed and maybe I could have adapted the friction film collectors from Charmhigh (should be very simple if the rotating axle is 10mm diameter).
 
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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #91 on: May 27, 2023, 06:14:47 am »
FYI, Neoden have confirmed to me that they have no intention to allow users to update their own firmware, and an entire board swap is the only way to update the machine.  :--
 
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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #92 on: May 29, 2023, 12:42:10 am »
The Mandell didn't sell on ebay, and it's been relisted:
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/225595362155
 

Offline Kean

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #93 on: May 29, 2023, 02:10:52 am »
The Mandell didn't sell on ebay, and it's been relisted:
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/225595362155

Not surprising.  It seems like a bad choice except for someone who already has a Madell brand machine and needs spares.  It is not even a great deal even for someone after a "project".  I wonder if that style of feeders are even still available to purchase.

The best (and possibly *only* good) thing about my second-hand Charmhigh is that I can use bog standard CL feeders that are readily available, and could also be used on any future machines.  My desktop Neoden is a pain in the butt as it doesn't have removable feeders, but it was a good starting machine for me at the time I got it (~6 years ago).
 

Offline Kean

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #94 on: May 29, 2023, 02:16:46 am »
FYI, Neoden have confirmed to me that they have no intention to allow users to update their own firmware, and an entire board swap is the only way to update the machine.  :--

This has always been the way they operate.  It probably hasn't had too much of an impact on their market share.

My old Neoden TM240A has a few annoying bugs, but nothing I can't work around and get work done.  It is just a bit of a time waster having to power cycle to clear some errors, which then reintroduces at least one bug which can occur after each start up.
 
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Offline SMTech

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #95 on: May 29, 2023, 10:41:15 am »
FYI, Neoden have confirmed to me that they have no intention to allow users to update their own firmware, and an entire board swap is the only way to update the machine.  :--

This has always been the way they operate.  It probably hasn't had too much of an impact on their market share.

My old Neoden TM240A has a few annoying bugs, but nothing I can't work around and get work done.  It is just a bit of a time waster having to power cycle to clear some errors, which then reintroduces at least one bug which can occur after each start up.

I think the reasoning is fairly fundamental, they consider their machines to be appliances, appliances don't get updates; they function as sold. It might seem counter intuitive compared to how other things in our lives function in 2023 but you have to acknowledge that supporting customer applied firmware updates adds another layer of support requirement, documentation and organization to maintain compatibility between software, firmware, board versions and 3rd party hardware such as cameras. If I compare that to our Essemtec, we no longer get software updates without paying hefty sums on money for the privilege, the software contains the firmware images and tools to update the various electronic controllers on the machine and feeders, these parts may well have updates but we will never see them.
 

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Offline Kean

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #97 on: May 31, 2023, 09:31:27 am »
Another contender?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/smallsmt-vision-placer-pick-place-machines/msg4885127/#msg4885127

Having push feeders is not great, but it is a fair compromise of cost vs part loading/changeover time.  If you are just running a few simple in-house designs then this may be acceptable.

The 15mm Z height and 6-slot nozzle changer are nice features compared to others I've seen, as are the feeders on 3-sides - but that would require a lot of open working space all around it.
 
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #98 on: May 31, 2023, 10:15:21 am »
Push feeders are OK IF they work reliably. I do wonder about how well they work with thin plastic tapes, which are extremely sensitive to any jarring that can bounce parts out.
It would be nice to have provision for a few "real" feeders for jobs where a large number of the same parts are being placed.
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Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #99 on: May 31, 2023, 10:59:19 am »
Push feeders are OK IF they work reliably. I do wonder about how well they work with thin plastic tapes, which are extremely sensitive to any jarring that can bounce parts out.
It would be nice to have provision for a few "real" feeders for jobs where a large number of the same parts are being placed.
Had their earlier machine. The push feeder is just d**ks. Leading tape snapping (only 3 level of tightness adjustment) pushing not consistent, mechanism is just fiddly. I spent most of the time trying to get the feeder just work and it will fail halfway during the job.  Gave up and sold it off.
 
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Offline SMTech

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #100 on: May 31, 2023, 11:28:03 am »
Push feeders are OK IF they work reliably. I do wonder about how well they work with thin plastic tapes, which are extremely sensitive to any jarring that can bounce parts out.
It would be nice to have provision for a few "real" feeders for jobs where a large number of the same parts are being placed.
Had their earlier machine. The push feeder is just d**ks. Leading tape snapping (only 3 level of tightness adjustment) pushing not consistent, mechanism is just fiddly. I spent most of the time trying to get the feeder just work and it will fail halfway during the job.  Gave up and sold it off.

There's one of their other models on eBay right now in Dorset...
 

Offline Smallsmt

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #101 on: May 31, 2023, 09:18:52 pm »
Push feeders are OK IF they work reliably. I do wonder about how well they work with thin plastic tapes, which are extremely sensitive to any jarring that can bounce parts out.
It would be nice to have provision for a few "real" feeders for jobs where a large number of the same parts are being placed.
Had their earlier machine. The push feeder is just d**ks. Leading tape snapping (only 3 level of tightness adjustment) pushing not consistent, mechanism is just fiddly. I spent most of the time trying to get the feeder just work and it will fail halfway during the job.  Gave up and sold it off.

The Push feeder is working much better than drag feeder!

Comfortable solution is to use CL Feeder but at a higher price, and need more space.

 

Offline mairo

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #102 on: June 01, 2023, 02:03:36 am »
As mentioned by others, I do not think Dave needs a PnP/assembly line and I do not think he can create good useful content on it not because Dave is not capable, but because as he said, it seems something that he is looking for a content. Since he does not like reading manuals much to start with ;) and to produce quality content one really need also to work with the machine/assembly process on daily bases I do not see how this can turn up with quality content. Lets not forget that Dave do have a PnP to start with!  ;)

However, if Dave still intends to acquire something, here are my wild suggestions:

Option 1 - LumenPnP for the simplest reason to help promote the system as the guys are putting some good work into it. Although it may not be a "proper" machine yet, progress takes time.

Option 2: This option requires a budget of approximately AU$1 million, but stay with me. With that amount, Dave could invest in a package from NanoDimentions, who recently acquired Essemtec. The package includes their new 3D PCB printer (improved design compared to previous versions) + 1x Fox2 machine with feeders and a solder paste jetting valve, along with their 400 series oven. This package is compact, capable, and operates in an inline manner. Funding for this investment could potentially (only) come from a government grant that Dave can apply for. Considering the potential return on investment in terms of content creation for the EE community and local STEM programs, it might prove more beneficial to the government compared to grants given to others. The 3D PCB printer offers numerous intriguing content possibilities, which will require Dave to 'improve' his skills in SolidWorks rather than Altium (in which I am sure he has plenty of skills).  ;)
 

Offline loki42

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #103 on: June 01, 2023, 11:30:08 pm »
Possible Options 3)  do some videos at local manufacturers or pcb assemblers.  I'd be happy to teach him how our Universal Instruments, MPM , essemtec and Koh Young gear works.  I'd be happy to let him run some boards too.

Seon (unexpected maker) just got a fancy brand new Juki system so I'm sure he'd be happy to show off that a bit.  There's also a bunch of other people with lines that would be happy to teach how to use them.  People manufacturing their own stuff are probably more open to it, as I don't have to worry about time lines from external customers etc. 
 
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Offline Smallsmt

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #104 on: June 02, 2023, 12:02:12 pm »
Quote
Seon (unexpected maker) just got a fancy brand new Juki system
What happened to his NEODEN K1830?
 

Offline asmi

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #105 on: June 02, 2023, 01:18:33 pm »
Possible Options 3)  do some videos at local manufacturers or pcb assemblers.  I'd be happy to teach him how our Universal Instruments, MPM , essemtec and Koh Young gear works.  I'd be happy to let him run some boards too.

Seon (unexpected maker) just got a fancy brand new Juki system so I'm sure he'd be happy to show off that a bit.  There's also a bunch of other people with lines that would be happy to teach how to use them.  People manufacturing their own stuff are probably more open to it, as I don't have to worry about time lines from external customers etc.
That won't be nearly as interesting because there is no way an average Joe can get their hands on these machines, while the likes of YY1 are within a reach of "advanced hobbyists" - the kind of people who buy TMI in the same price range, basically one level up from typical cheap hobbyist stuff. For example there is a plenty of hobbyists with spectrum analyzers, and their prices START in the same ballpark as some of the cheaper PnP machines.

And if you exclude the fact that viewers can actually buy machine they see on a screen, there is no need to make any videos - there are a metric ton of them already on Youtube, so Dave's video will be simply yet another grain in that pile. I can speak for myself - I'm personally not interested in videos about yet another PnP monster which costs more than my car and which I know I will never get to use in the real life - I've seen enough of them already.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2023, 01:20:40 pm by asmi »
 
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Offline Kean

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #106 on: June 02, 2023, 02:21:22 pm »
Quote
Seon (unexpected maker) just got a fancy brand new Juki system
What happened to his NEODEN K1830?

Like the Charmhigh T560P4 he had before it (which I am now using), the Neoden K1830 was becoming "increasingly problematic".  It had its good days and bad days, and he just didn't get enough support from Neoden to troubleshoot it.  I think he had most of the issues sorted out, but it could basically just decide to ruin his day at a moments notice.  Another Aussie company with a similar Neoden PnP that has lots of experience fixing issues is buying it from him, possibly just for the spare parts and feeders.
 
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Offline loki42

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #107 on: June 02, 2023, 04:19:20 pm »
Yeah,  I've seen factory tours but almost no actual tutorials on how to load a feeder,  how to program a component for pnp,  how to program the stencil printer,  spi etc.  I think those would be actually interesting to a broad audience because of you're getting the board assembled by someone else they'll have normal machines not Chinese stuff and you can learn to what some issues with your design,  bom, panalisation etc might be.  Without working on my line I wouldn't know much about the stencil issues of different parts,  the difficulty of feeding certain trim pots,  the humidity sensitivity of certain parts,  the challenges of tall, very large or tray / tube parts.  All this contributes to cost and reliability.

Yet another demo of a non functional Chinese machine isn't that handy to me.
 

Offline asmi

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #108 on: June 02, 2023, 05:20:16 pm »
Yeah,  I've seen factory tours but almost no actual tutorials on how to load a feeder,  how to program a component for pnp,  how to program the stencil printer,  spi etc.  I think those would be actually interesting to a broad audience because of you're getting the board assembled by someone else they'll have normal machines not Chinese stuff and you can learn to what some issues with your design,  bom, panalisation etc might be.  Without working on my line I wouldn't know much about the stencil issues of different parts,  the difficulty of feeding certain trim pots,  the humidity sensitivity of certain parts,  the challenges of tall, very large or tray / tube parts.  All this contributes to cost and reliability.
There issues are of zero concern for any but the largest volume runs. I could care less how to load a feeder, or how to program the stencil printer, neither of which I know I will ever touch in my life. And besides, I suspect that most electronics in the world IS actually assembled by Chinese machines (just not cheap ones).

Yet another demo of a non functional Chinese machine isn't that handy to me.
Yeah, I got that our interests are at odds here. The question is how many potential viewers have access to these uber-expensive machines vs those who can only afford cheap ones and so don't care for uber stuff? I think the answer is rather obvious, especially since the former already know everything there is to know about their machine anyway (because those machines typically come with training), and so they probably won't be interested in those videos as well.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2023, 05:23:18 pm by asmi »
 

Offline loki42

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #109 on: June 03, 2023, 01:00:56 am »
Yeah,  I think that's why it made sense for people who are YouTubers and do some manufacturing to go for Chinese hobby machines. I've alas never got training with any of my gear,  though I am with my selective solderer that was meant to be arriving a few months ago...

As for machines used in China if you watch factory tours or go there you'll see it's majority Fuji NXT then Panasonic and ASM / Siemens at the volume end then juki / Yamaha at the high mix end. Some UIC, and other brands but they are more common in Taiwan (currently Taiwanese owned).
 

Offline Friedl.b

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #110 on: December 04, 2023, 07:48:47 am »
Hi -

Apologies for reviving an old post, not sure whether it is preferred to start a new one related to this or revive old ones :)

I have been considering buying a PnP for quite a while now.  Our weak currency is probably what is keeping me form pulling the trigger on this as even the entry level ones e.g. Lumen or Neon YY! is quite pricey in SA Rands.  Having said this, I think it is time.   I am not bluffing myself in thinking this machine is going to make a a ton of money, but it would be nice it it can pay for itself over a year or two.

The main purpose for me would be to provide my clients with "better quality" prototypes on their designs.  I already have a Stencil printer and reflow oven, but the PnP has always eluded me due to the pricing.   I am fairly sure the Lumen will meet my needs, but with Neoden specials now on, it makes me wonder whether getting the YY1 is not the better option.  I do prefer OpenPnP and the electronic feeders on the Lumen, but it seems the Neoden YY1 is overall just a more capable machine?

Would appreciate some advice :)

Regards
Friedl.
 

Offline SMTech

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #111 on: December 04, 2023, 11:53:20 am »
I don't have either, but I have seen nothing in this forum to suggest openPnP is a reason to choose the Lumen over the YY1. Both are flawed low cost machines but day to day the YY1 should be better. Enthusiasm alone does not a good machine make.
 

Offline level6

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #112 on: December 04, 2023, 03:21:13 pm »
I own a YY1 and, overall, I'm pretty satisfied with it. You can be up and running the same day you unpack it. The same cannot be said for the Lumen.

Depending on your volume and budget, you might want to look at machines from HWGC. An entry level machine is twice the cost of the YY1 but very capable and less cost than the higher end Neoden models.
 
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Offline Friedl.b

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #113 on: December 04, 2023, 08:01:53 pm »
Hi -

Thanks!!  My workload on the machine will be quite light to be honest.  I would say anything between 50 and 400 components on a board, nothing smaller than 0603.  IC's are mostly QFN with 0.4m pitch.

Doubt I will exceed runs of more than 20 as it will be used almost exclusively for prototyping.   To have the option to so small runs of course is a good thing :)

Regards, Friedl.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #114 on: December 04, 2023, 08:21:58 pm »
Hi -

Thanks!!  My workload on the machine will be quite light to be honest.  I would say anything between 50 and 400 components on a board, nothing smaller than 0603.  IC's are mostly QFN with 0.4m pitch.

Doubt I will exceed runs of more than 20 as it will be used almost exclusively for prototyping.   To have the option to so small runs of course is a good thing :)

Regards, Friedl.
Quite light can be the hardest workload for automated assembly. When you are doing it a lot you settle into a groove, and things flow. If your load is light you need to keep reacquiring the skill.
 
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Offline Friedl.b

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #115 on: December 04, 2023, 08:27:49 pm »
Hi -

My best estimate is that I will use it most likely 2-3 times per week.  Thinking was use feeders for 'standard passives' and maybe regulators I use often and then use IC trays or strip feeders for other components unique to a design.

I understand what you are saying though...  but I am just a little over placing e.g. 20 boards with 400+ components on by hand  :)

Regards, Friedl.
 

Offline level6

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #116 on: December 05, 2023, 05:09:41 am »
In that case I think the YY1 would do well. 0603 placement would be no problem at all.
 
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Offline Friedl.b

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #117 on: December 05, 2023, 05:46:25 am »
Thank you for all the feedback.  My mind is spinning as this would be quite a large investment for me.  As I am a designer first and foremost, investing so much into hardware is 'challenging' :)

Initially I was liking the electronic feeders on the LumenPNP.  At the moment though, the YY1 is selling at $2200 with is only $300 more than the LumenPnP without any feeders.  Some videos and threads with regards to the YY1 mechanical feeders made me weary though, specially due to the lack of local support.

Really appreciate all the feedback!!

Kind Regards,
Friedl.
 

Offline newto

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #118 on: December 05, 2023, 02:38:05 pm »
We have a YY1, and it works great for our applications. There's a big thread for them with tips, tricks, and headaches that might be a good read if that's what you decide to go with.

The big thing for the YY1 is that changing out reals can be a pain, even more so if it's one near the middle. It's best if you either have a standard set of components for your boards, or only have 1 or two designs that you build and can fit all the components on the machine at once.

We were having boards assembled locally in Canada before, and paying a fortune for it because we only did small runs of 10-20 at a time (I'm pretty sure they were actually assembling them by hand, rather than setting up one of their machines for such a small order), so for us the machine will pay for itself in about 20-40 boards assembled.

It also makes prototyping a lot faster, I have it place all the passives off the reels, and the manually put in anything that wasn't loaded, turning a few hours of work into a few minutes.
 
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Offline Friedl.b

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #119 on: December 05, 2023, 07:16:58 pm »
THANKS!!

Prototyping is what I want it for mostly, with the option to do small runs.  Prototyping for me usually consist of  assembling 5-10 boards for client proving the design and doing some field testing.  We also have local assembly services but same as yours, they are very expensive on small runs making it a non starter for me.  Changing reels seems to be less of a hassle on the Lumen, providing you buy the electronic feeders.  Another benefit of the Lumen is probably (or maybe not) the fact that it runs openPnP??   

Should I buy the YY1 I would follow your approach, keeping 'standard' passives (leds, 10k resistors, 100nF caps etc) near the middle.  Another plus for me would be that I can now increase density on my designs as they will be placed by a robot  ;D

Regards, Friedl.
 

Offline Aspartame

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #120 on: December 16, 2023, 02:18:52 pm »
Has anybody tried this machine?
For $3100 it looks very promising.
It comes with ball screw drive and supports proper feeders.
Product height is 50cm, so fitting through doors is not a problem.
 

Offline meshtron

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #121 on: December 16, 2023, 04:07:56 pm »
Has anybody tried this machine?
For $3100 it looks very promising.
It comes with ball screw drive and supports proper feeders.
Product height is 50cm, so fitting through doors is not a problem.

I reached out to them multiple times in multiple ways before I made a purchase and never got a single response.  Nor could I find any actual user videos of the thing running.

Actually - looking closer at your picture, I thought it was the "Tornado SMT" that I had been looking at, but it's another one I'm unfamiliar with.

I ended up buying a QIHE TVM802BX which I'm pretty happy with so far.  Needle-indexing feeders aren't optimum, but keeps the cost down and (so far) they work consistently so I'm happy.
 

Offline Friedl.b

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #122 on: January 12, 2024, 02:13:32 pm »
Hi -

Ok, I took the plunge and bought a YY1.  So far so good BUT....

I have found that after selecting a reference component and fiducial, the actual components seem to still be off by quite a bit.  I then have to manually adjust each of the ±150 components before running the job. 

Is this to be expected? 

Regards,
Friedl
 

Offline level6

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #123 on: January 12, 2024, 03:32:28 pm »
Hi -

Ok, I took the plunge and bought a YY1.  So far so good BUT....

I have found that after selecting a reference component and fiducial, the actual components seem to still be off by quite a bit.  I then have to manually adjust each of the ±150 components before running the job. 

Is this to be expected? 

Not my experience with my YY1. Are you setting up the reference component correctly? Are you pressing the button to move to the next component position, rather than manually moving the camera?
 

Offline Friedl.b

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #124 on: January 12, 2024, 06:13:05 pm »
Hi -

Yes I do.  The procedure I follow (which might be incorrect as I am brand new to this) is:

1. Import file
2. Select fiducial and reference component.
3. Edit Components - Set feeders numbers etc.  Here when selecting the components and the camera moves to the applicable component, I can see it is off center and I have to adjust most of them. 

Granted that on this particular board I do not have a fiducial as I had them made before I got the PnP, but I have tried various other pads/holes on the board and the result is pretty much the same  :palm: 

Smallest components are 0603.  Does the footprint name of the component play any part?  I mean 0603D, 0603B or eg. 0603MFG ??
 

Offline level6

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #125 on: January 13, 2024, 04:53:06 am »
When the YY1 starts to mount components, it first detects the position of the fiducial marking. If you don't have a formal fiducial mark, then it is possible that the vision is picking some feature that is off from where you centered what you selected as a fiducial. When you start part placements, step through the first stage where it detects the fiducial and see on the left screen the position it finds.
 
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Offline Friedl.b

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #126 on: January 13, 2024, 07:26:32 am »
Thanks! 

I will use the test PCB again and see whether I can get that working 100%.  After that I will try the custom PCB again.  I also have more boards I need to assemble that do have fiducials so can test those as well.  Busy loading more components in the machine, will let you know and post some pictures.

Thank you for the help, it is much appreciated!

Regards, Friedl.
 

Offline glenenglish

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #127 on: January 16, 2024, 04:56:31 am »
Dave you can have my TVM920 and all the spares if you come and get it (canberra) . I'd regard it as a good 0603 machine. 0402 I think requires more refined pickup and place head skills.  well 0402 is OK  on it depending on the parts and a bit of patience. I've always thought CL feeders were a bit on their edge on 0402s but they do make 0201 feeders for CL, so it can be done.
 
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Online EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #128 on: January 18, 2024, 09:02:22 pm »
Dave you can have my TVM920 and all the spares if you come and get it (canberra) . I'd regard it as a good 0603 machine. 0402 I think requires more refined pickup and place head skills.  well 0402 is OK  on it depending on the parts and a bit of patience. I've always thought CL feeders were a bit on their edge on 0402s but they do make 0201 feeders for CL, so it can be done.

Wow, thanks Glen!
I found the dimensions. L1080 * W805 * H750mm is that correct? Will have to measure the car and the dungeon door.
 

Offline glenenglish

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #129 on: January 18, 2024, 09:37:33 pm »
needs a small pantec. maybe a wide van.
PM me.
 

Offline Friedl.b

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #130 on: January 26, 2024, 05:43:50 pm »
Hi -

I have a couple of YY1 questions, hoping someone can assist.  Pretty sure I am doing something silly :)

1. I have some optocouplers in one of the flexible feeders.  the Machine proceeds to pick one up, move it over to the camera, verifies and then moves on to where it should be placed.  It then 'hesitates' and then proceeds to throw it away  :palm:

2. I have some Otto-triacs in the bulk-feeder.  The Machine tries to pick them up but misses them, no matter what I do.

3. I am using a custom panel (2 x 2).  The first boards seems to work (for the most of it at least).  When it finishes, it then gives the following error "Unable to find fiducial". attached is a photo of the the panel.  Pretty sure I am doing something wrong here.


Would appreciate some advice ?
 

Offline newto

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #131 on: January 26, 2024, 06:02:21 pm »
Hi -

I have a couple of YY1 questions, hoping someone can assist.  Pretty sure I am doing something silly :)

1. I have some optocouplers in one of the flexible feeders.  the Machine proceeds to pick one up, move it over to the camera, verifies and then moves on to where it should be placed.  It then 'hesitates' and then proceeds to throw it away  :palm:

2. I have some Otto-triacs in the bulk-feeder.  The Machine tries to pick them up but misses them, no matter what I do.

3. I am using a custom panel (2 x 2).  The first boards seems to work (for the most of it at least).  When it finishes, it then gives the following error "Unable to find fiducial". attached is a photo of the the panel.  Pretty sure I am doing something wrong here.


Would appreciate some advice ?

1) Most likely a contrast issue with the image, my guess would be it can't see all the pins or sees a reflection and thinks it didn't pick up properly. When it rejects a part it always goes over the position first for some reason. If you absolutely can't get it to work with the camera, you can disable the check and use vacuum to ensure you've picked something up, and then manually check placement after.

2) Are you using the bulk feeder in camera mode, or just picking up from a fixed position? I don't think the camera mode works on things more complicated than passive part caps and resistors. If you're not, check the pick height and position of the feeder location. I use a ton of the bulk feeders by manually placing the components into the squares, but I have to make sure I index them against the same corner every time (next revision will be much simpler and not need as many individual refills for the feeders)

3) I haven't tried panels yet, worst case you could create a placement file that does all 4 boards together, instead of trying to use the software panel system. My guess for your panels is that the software wants a fiducial setting put in, and a fiducial on each board to check before starting the second board.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2024, 06:06:22 pm by newto »
 
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Offline Friedl.b

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #132 on: January 26, 2024, 06:14:16 pm »
Hi -

Thank you for the prompt response :)

I managed to get the optocouplers working by switching to Mode 4 (large component view)... I actually did test without the camera and it does work, would have been last resort, hehe.

For the bulk feeders I am using the camera yes.  My very limited and brief experience with the machine is that it is most certainly easier to use reels.  I loaded quite a bunch of reels, but some components are just too expensive to buy in reel form or maybe project specific, so I will try your method as well, thanks!

This is not a bad idea as Altium actually exports the panelized PNP file this way.  Saves me a lot of work editing it afterwards.  I am also adding a parameter in my component library so that the exported file will already contain the feeder number for each component (where possible).

Aside from that, enjoying the machine so far.  Just a little annoyed with the fact that I quite often need to fine tune component placement.  Not to bad on 30pcs board, but less fun on 400 component count boards  :scared:

Regards, Friedl
 

Offline Friedl.b

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #133 on: January 26, 2024, 07:31:31 pm »
Hi -

Just another question about the fiducial.  Is this the wat the camera is supposed to see it.  I have seen some videos where there all black around the fiducial and then only the plated pad is picked up.  In my case it looks quite different.

Regards
Friedl
 

Offline newto

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #134 on: January 26, 2024, 08:06:45 pm »
Glad you got most of the issues sorted. I've got two components that I have to place blind, a large inductor and a button cell battery holder, neither work with the camera, but they have huge pads, so accuracy isn't super needed.

For the fiducial image, that should still work, the software is smart enough to ignore the white outside of the circle with the crosshair over it. The reason it doesn't have a nice black field is that you have white solder mask and the camera picks it up like the reflective dot. Whether the fiducial actually *does* anything is another matter. There's definitely some uncertainty on whether it actually does anything before placement...

It's definitely a "you get what you pay for" type situation. Low number of unique boards (or lots of boards that share the same components), relatively small production quantities, minimal quantities of small components (I have an 0201 diode on our main board, I make sure that's placed first so I can check it before it does the rest) and it's pretty good. Go outside of that, and you'll be absolutely miserable with it.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2024, 08:10:29 pm by newto »
 

Offline Friedl.b

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #135 on: January 26, 2024, 08:25:45 pm »
Haha,.. always good to hear something might turn into an absolute disaster 🤣🤣  I will try the new file tomorrow with all the components as apposed to the panel option, should work I guess.

I doubt I will go below 0603… maybe 0402 but not likely. I do use quite a few QFN packages but it seems to handle those just fine. Aside from the tape… of my word I can see those being a ‘challenge going forward.   No issue on the paper tapes but the plastic ones have been challenging. My quite expensive super flat LEDS when flying like popcorn kernels 🤦🏻🤣

Still need to master the Nozzle change as well,  it am sure that will be ok. Looks like the thing is to place components using same nozzle sizes in groups as it only allows 4 changes.

With regards to the fiducial… would be quite nice to know whether it actually does something yes. If it uses an absolute 0,0 origin of the board it should be an able to place just using the X,Y coordinates from the PnP file I guess??
 

Offline MR

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #136 on: January 27, 2024, 05:36:18 am »
Glad you got most of the issues sorted. I've got two components that I have to place blind, a large inductor and a button cell battery holder, neither work with the camera, but they have huge pads, so accuracy isn't super needed.

For the fiducial image, that should still work, the software is smart enough to ignore the white outside of the circle with the crosshair over it. The reason it doesn't have a nice black field is that you have white solder mask and the camera picks it up like the reflective dot. Whether the fiducial actually *does* anything is another matter. There's definitely some uncertainty on whether it actually does anything before placement...

It's definitely a "you get what you pay for" type situation. Low number of unique boards (or lots of boards that share the same components), relatively small production quantities, minimal quantities of small components (I have an 0201 diode on our main board, I make sure that's placed first so I can check it before it does the rest) and it's pretty good. Go outside of that, and you'll be absolutely miserable with it.

I absolutely disagree ... it is not "you get what you pay for" in that industry, care has to be taken but the chinese are at least low cost. I got scammed by Mechatronika from Poland nearly a decade ago they're still active out there.
I bought their top model (used) but sent it all to them for a complete overhaul including replacing the motors -- , and if you know about those low end mid range models you should know that there's not much behind that, you have a gantry and a pick and place head.
If you have new motors and a new controller on it practically is like a new machine. The only bad thing that could be is that the linear rails are worn out but that was not the case. The oscillating / shaking portal problem came up after they have done their magic upgrade - it wasn't there before.
Other issues were optical recognition based and there were also some vendor calibration issues involved eg. wrong timing triggering component pictures which caused additional component drop offs. I got far enough to had a proof (=pictures which showed that the flying camera triggered too early or too late back then - I even figured out the obfuscated eeprom setting how to adjust that, they did not expose that calibration option to the user)

The machine overall looked like something due to heavy metal used for the frame but the machine is put together close to unserviceable in some areas the entire gantry needed to be lifted in order to access the Y motor (400W Delta Servo Motor - to be fair even Delta tried to support the shit Mechatronika machine I reached out to them told them that Mechatronika is unwilling to resolve severe issues and they tried) In 2020 we stopped completely since I moved to Taiwan. I decided to not move the machine since the value just isn't worth the shipping price (I'm honest about that and I won't let go that machine either since I don't want to scam anyone with it - and I have the knowledge to make something useful out of it; I have a weak plan to put my DIY head on it and convert it to a CNC which can mill Aluminum at least).

The machine cost 40.000$ back then (27.000$ used, ~13.000$ directly to Mechatronika for the service; and they were friendly as long as we were willing to throw money at them.. the return was 2x 500$ Servos and some crappy controller PCBs), and now in 2024 you can still buy those machines for 50-60.000$
I built my own machine in the meanwhile (DIY) since I very much studied their machine and rewrote the PNP Software until 2020 (which worked way better than their one). My software collected the pick issues and let the operator fix the issues at the end of the procedure - this worked reasonably well and fixed one of my biggest issues - the baby sitting.

I had no machining background until 2020, I got into that from 2020 on, CNC turning, CNC milling (CAD / CAM). Aluminum prices where I live is like 5$/kg delivered to the door. Our new machine is multihead 2 heads installed, the head is set for 4 heads. the axis have 3 400W servos installed (accuracy is like 0.01 - 0.02mm).
So whatever the Mechatronika machine has a real value below 4000$, not too many people are buying that machine due to the high price the machine is capable of building PCBs but very uncomfortable to use.
And I can tell only unexperienced people buy such a machine (including me back then).

Someone from Spain bought a feeder box which they sell for 4000 EUR, there are 2 cheap stepper motors inside, I think I will make a teardown about that, in my setup (my feeders) 16 lanes jammed completely due to plastic tapes inside -- again no support nothing available from Mechatronika (and at any time I gave them the option to fix their issue).

Resellers love Mechatronika since the margin to earn is relatively high, there's just no value behind that (again I built my own machine, my knowledge started with Mechatronika). I did not expect resellers to stand with their machines so seriously - anyone listing a Mechatronika clearly shows deep business interest rather than having an honest long term business.
The usual answer others don't have that problem is scam, anyone can say that;
A pick and place machine is a mathematical system a good software can make a cheap machine shine as long as it takes care about all the problems.
If a pick and place machine - after a fixed procedure randomly throws components onto a PCB due to mathematical errors (eg. not taking into account that a PCB is squeezed by a PCB holder and not flat) that just shows that certain cases are not handled by the software.
And doing such a pick and place software is not difficult it just takes time. They have a procedure to measure the PCB distance - well then just be sure that the measurements are taken at multiple points (it's measuring the PCB distance to the nozzle via vacuum sensor sensing - I also did that on my DIY machine, until I put a panasonic distance sensor on it)
Even so as a pick and place manufacturer they should provide equipment to avoid this - it's no problem to manufacture a frame or simply telling the customer what to do - or put it into a manual (their manual is a joke).
The optical recognition cannot even handle HASL based PCBs since the PCB lightning is just a cheap LED ring - they simply just cannot be set up at all. I am also monitoring the OpenPNP community, while I fixed that with better diffuse lightning, OpenPNP uses the Parallax detection method (my software is not based on OpenPNP, and I have never used it but just by reading the documentation I value any high level discussion about certain technical issues)

Maybe someone is aware of milling PCBs, there's free software out there which measures the height of the PCB raster based and interpolates a linear milling path. So not doable is just an excuse (again the machine is quoted 5 digit value and doesn't offer anything advanced).
Luckily I do not depend on my Mechatronika anymore. Mechatronika is even sending their dealers a mail about us (I know they will read this too since I always send them the links whenever I write something about them), just a big warning if they want to end up in the GDPR violation database just keep going scamming more people.
That machine has cause financial loss to us until we got it up and running with our software.

The machine is not in use anymore if they think they can do it better they can still reach out and fix that machine up to what I call usable quality level (I would document it accordingly online).

Attached the picture of their staging camera (of the MX80 and M10V of another customer), in the meanwhile other Mechatronika customers also confirmed that they have this style of camera installed. (the upgrade quoted "new" camera back then... so that's what you get .., I replaced it with a 10$ chinese CVBS camera already and that just works as a drop in replacement, the current modules usually support AHD and CVBS and offer an on screen menu to adjust various settings)

And writing the customer should fly to them for training, honestly .. a single head pick and place machine doesn't need advanced training because there's nothing advanced behind that (again I built my own multihead machine, I know it all; my machine is not perfect but exceeds the capabilities of the Mechatronika machines at least).
For multihead calibration some training might be useful if someone has never used a machine before - multihead is a different story.
Set component/feeder location, PCB location and PCB distance and that's it. If an entire portal starts to shake due to loosely installed pulley and errors out servos that's something a manufacturer should deal with and not bug the customer about getting some training

Or telling their resellers and customers .. that guy bought it for the wrong purpose.. No I did not want to mix yoghurt with this machine if that's what that the "shaking portal" including watch it until it's mixed properly (=babysitting) feature is supposed to do with oscillating I'm very sorry I did not see that in the spec sheet.

That's my comment about "you get what you pay for.". No you don't even in 2024. A higher price yet doesn't mean that you will get something better.

All European resellers should be ashamed of listing those machines and actively ripping off people. For that money they were always able to get way better machinery. And those who have those machines work for their purpose their requirement is very low and they're lucky - and yet they could still have way better equipment for a lower price infront of their nose.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2024, 09:43:03 am by MR »
 
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #137 on: January 27, 2024, 11:55:51 am »
 
Quote
My software collected the pick issues and let the operator fix the issues at the end of the procedure - this worked reasonably well and fixed one of my biggest issues - the baby sitting.
This is an important  feature that seems to be consistently missing from low-end machines - it's obvious that it's the correct way to do it (at least as an option) but for some reason teh Chinese makers don't understand.
 I have a manual from a DOS-based machine that's maybe 35 years old that does this right.

It's so frustrating that there are now so many machines with OK hardware, but which could be improved very substantially with a couple of days' software work
« Last Edit: January 27, 2024, 11:57:23 am by mikeselectricstuff »
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Offline Friedl.b

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #138 on: January 27, 2024, 01:21:41 pm »
As I am VERy new to this, I guess I will still get around to finding out what actually annoys me about the low end machines....  Having said that, I can already see why there is such a hype about electronic feeders.  While mine works well with the paper reels, the plastic ones have been a pain.  It is as if those little friction wheels grabbing the tape is not grabbing it properly resulting in the tape cover not being pulled off when the tape is being pulled forward.
 

Offline Friedl.b

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #139 on: January 27, 2024, 06:34:44 pm »
Hi -

I have seen on some videos that you need to adjust (fine tune) each component after setting the first component and fiducial.  At first this sounded plausible as the crosshairs seems a bit off when viewing the components in EDIT COMPONENT MODE.

All of that said, I have not had much success getting them placed properly and then enquired at Neoden.  I received the following response: " dont need to adjust each component after that.  The image displaying here just a reference, not so accurate" 

What is you experience with this, do you need to finetune component centers after setting the fiducial?

Regards,
Friedl.
 

Offline br

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #140 on: January 27, 2024, 09:09:17 pm »
I have received my YY1 late Nov 2023.

I did some testing during couple of days and noticed it could not place lqfp128 package (Big IC mode). My guess was that the YY1's vision is confused about presence of Exposed Pad (EPAD) under the LQFP128 package (the pad reflects light).

I posted a video to youtube and reported the problem to NeoDen:

They did a firmware fix for me, but instead of sending me a link to the new firmware, they have shipped to me a new motor controller board with updated firmware. Weird, but I don't mind to have a backup board.

Instead if swapping my current board to a newly received one, I extracted firmware from it, and programmed my current board. Saved some time (the boards are identical).
The fix did not help however, even worse some new bugs appear on feeder setup page.

I did some disassembly of their firmware but could not find anything interesting.

The soc on the board is STM32F407. I have some experience with it and I also have a small real-time os developed from scratch during my life and work in Cambridge.
Spent a couple of days with a multi-meter to track down all connections to stm and bring up my OS on it.

The vision is done on the "Edge", meaning that it is done directly on camera module PCB the image sensor is located on. Both Up and Down looking cameras feature stm32h7 microcontroller (firmware is identical I checked). Camera sensors handled by DCMI (Digital Camera Interface) STM32's peripheral device.

There is no USB in entire YY1 system. Cameras process the image and send result over low speed serial to the motor control board. I could not remap those serial interface pins to USB because stm32 does not allow that for those particular pins used. Each camera module has a connector for the front display, they are also low speed serial (probably SPI).

Long story short, I have a new firmware written from scratch for YY1 and I managed to assemble a few boards with OpenPnP!

Also I replaced both cameras. I have some cad models and links to aliexpress if someone interested.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2024, 09:30:37 pm by br »
 
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Offline Kean

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #141 on: January 28, 2024, 01:20:12 am »
Long story short, I have a new firmware written from scratch for YY1 and I managed to assemble a few boards with OpenPnP!

Wow, congrats.  I am sure others would be keen to try that.
 

Offline glenenglish

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #142 on: January 28, 2024, 01:55:13 am »
The hardware in the chinese machines is generally OK.

Yes, the video can be a bit slow. I converted all my Kayo  analog video machines to USB2 and USB3 video when I wrote my own SW for it.  THis is because the  multi video analog capture card that came witth the machine wouldnt talk to anything.

I've got a colleague with the latest and greatest 6 head Kayo machine,--- again hardware is quite good. but software is a complete P.O.S. ...   Just a joke... Better to buy a 30,000 hour  used  Yamaha me thinks, if you can fit it and give it the air it needs, would be total cheaper than the chinese machine including a big scroll compressor.

Jon in Melbourne bought my three Kayo machines and got OpenPNP going on them, so that is a plus. (these days I have a big Samsung - Hanwha SM482) .
« Last Edit: January 28, 2024, 08:32:50 pm by glenenglish »
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #143 on: January 28, 2024, 12:23:15 pm »
The hardware in the chinese machines is generally OK.

Yes, the video can be a bit slow. I converted all my Kayo  analog video machines to USB2 and USB3 video when I wrote my own SW for it.  THis is because the  multi video analog capture card that came witth the machine wouldnt talk to anything.

I've got a colleague with the latest and greatest 6 head Kayo machine,--- again hardware is quite good. but software is a complete P.O.S. ...   Just a joke... Better to buy a 30,000 hour  used  Yamaha me thinks, if you can fit it and give it the air it needs, would be total cheaper than the chinese machine including a big scroll compressor.

John in Melbourne bought my three Kayo machines and got OpenPNP going on them, so that is a plus. (these days I have a big Samsung - Hanwha SM482) .
Kayo was basically using OEM machine from other manufacturer, last I know was from Bovi. In fact quite a few is doing this sort of business like YX and ZB (until 2019) from HWGC. Hence, the software are usually 1 or 2 major revision behind the real manufacturer (probably intended). You will also notice Kayo's machine line up didn't really grow like others.

Offline glenenglish

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #144 on: January 28, 2024, 08:18:55 pm »
ahhh. yeah they seem to have their own software people since it seems they can do the odd fast bug fix if they want, albeit with zero testing LOL.
AFter I reverse engineered all the RS485 bus commands (from the PC to the controller board)  and wrote my own software , I still couldnt figure out a couple of commands out of maybe 100, and they just sent me the whole documentated command list.

It's clear though the chinese mfrs tend to not have any ways of updating firmware etc in their sub boards. Like Kayo, Neoden,  QiHi have all sent new controller boards to update software in their controllers. (instead of providing a tool).

For the suppliers that just use an OEM machine (like as you say Kayo) , they hold onyto their software/firmware mods very tightly, they're scared of copying.  There's no concept of locks, keys, etc to limit distribution, its all really low tech.

That's why I think if we ever go to war with china, none of their sh1t will work. LOL.
 

Offline br

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #145 on: January 28, 2024, 10:20:50 pm »
ahhh. yeah they seem to have their own software people since it seems they can do the odd fast bug fix if they want, albeit with zero testing LOL.
AFter I reverse engineered all the RS485 bus commands (from the PC to the controller board)  and wrote my own software , I still couldnt figure out a couple of commands out of maybe 100, and they just sent me the whole documentated command list.

It's clear though the chinese mfrs tend to not have any ways of updating firmware etc in their sub boards. Like Kayo, Neoden,  QiHi have all sent new controller boards to update software in their controllers. (instead of providing a tool).

For the suppliers that just use an OEM machine (like as you say Kayo) , they hold onyto their software/firmware mods very tightly, they're scared of copying.  There's no concept of locks, keys, etc to limit distribution, its all really low tech.

That's why I think if we ever go to war with china, none of their sh1t will work. LOL.

Chinese make a good cheap (and sometimes working?) hardware, but on the software side is complete fail.
Fitting machine vision into restricted (in terms of resources) environment of stm32h7 is a boldly attempt (and failed on YY1).

Unexpected Maker in one of their videos mentioned that the firmware of NeoDen IN6 does not do its job properly and they wanted to find ST-Link connector on it (to reprogram stm32 I guess)
https://youtu.be/PQ7eh93AQRk?t=412
 

Offline br

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #146 on: January 28, 2024, 10:25:15 pm »
Long story short, I have a new firmware written from scratch for YY1 and I managed to assemble a few boards with OpenPnP!
Wow, congrats.  I am sure others would be keen to try that.

Thanks. I have published my firmware:
https://github.com/mdepx/neodenyy1

It lacks documentation but I'm working on it slowly.
 
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Offline glenenglish

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #147 on: January 28, 2024, 11:03:40 pm »
yeah, there is no way a STM32 is going to have the CPU grunt required to perform the optical work in a robust manner.
You need a big PC for that or other highly customized FPGA hardware.

also, use of color cameras show that they dont really know what they are doing, compared to a hi-res, NON bayer filter B&W imager. 

The color cam throws away almost 75% of the otherwise useful resolution.
and then there is the chromatic abberation of lenses. Illumination with mono chromatic light helps a bit there (red). but white illumination  for fiducial marks with a color camera is bollocks.....
 

Offline MR

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #148 on: January 29, 2024, 04:13:50 am »
Colour cameras have their advantage that you can pick up details which you might not see with BW cameras.
Add a software filter and you'll have your BW picture for analysing it, it's not a big deal with opencv, even without (eg. YUYV (strip the chroma UV), since most eg. usb cameras actually do not submit RGB but YUYV or UYVY it's a simple operation, some of them do some pre-filtering on the controller). Basically all variations of cameras are out there nowadays.

Most of those cheaply built pnp machines use a simple LED ring for illumination only, there are various mechanisms available.
https://www.vision-doctor.com/en/illumination-techniques/diffuse-incident-light.html

pick and place machines do not do heavy optical recognition, it's more about the algorithm which is used for a certain components.
For optical recognition I mostly use 640x480, and all is fine with it. Most cameras are able to deliver far more than that.
Some cameras have luma filters inside the controllers / sensors. You can get acceptable results with lowest end cameras.
In case of Mechatronika they used a BW CVBS camera (interlacing is even worse than having no pure BW picture, since you need to wait for a stable frame (2 half frames in still position, 40 milliseconds at least) to get the "full" resolution. Those cameras cost 10$ plus PCI controller (I also used it via USB at some point).
« Last Edit: January 29, 2024, 05:08:15 am by MR »
 

Offline glenenglish

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #149 on: January 29, 2024, 05:16:08 am »
yeah but the Bayer filter and chomatic abberation ruins your potential resolution and edge detection. IE more demands on the lens, light source.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2024, 05:20:38 am by glenenglish »
 

Offline MR

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #150 on: January 29, 2024, 08:22:12 am »
You do not need a high resolution with pick and place machines.
For Top Camera, I'd even see a colour camera as an advantage.

There are far more challenging optical recognition scenarios out there than for pick and place machines.

I did the optical recognition for my machine myself, and I've seen the shit Mechatronika has done.
My conclusion is:
- Optical recognition needs experience (that's it basically: time + watching the behaviour + various updates = experience), some components are just different than others.
- Or the pick and place software needs to allow some plugins which allows a programmer to add his own algorithm for certain components. even if it only fails like for 1 part out of 100 for that certain project it will be bad.

YUY2/YUYV/UYVY already represents a filtered format, it's rare that USB cameras will submit raw bayer pictures
(of course might be different when not using a controller in between which is doing that)

When looking at the YY1 videos I do not see that the format (whatever they use) matters, it's the algorithms, and for those they need more experience for some components (I'm even sure it works already as it is for many)
 

Offline glenenglish

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #151 on: January 29, 2024, 08:26:28 am »
The bayer filter is on the imager itself , you cant fix that...you cannot undo what it does..  3 x3 or maybe 4x4 pixels are weighted into a single colour pixel.

Anyway. Good that you have sorted your mekatronica.

 What do you think / what is your opinion  about a used Jap or Korean machine compared to a 'new' chinese CL machine ?
 

Offline MR

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #152 on: January 29, 2024, 10:19:10 am »
I could probably write a lot, we outsourced for some time and I saw how Juki / Yamaha assembly lines processed our PCBs...

Chinese lower end are better serviceable with standard parts by yourself I'd say, we have built our own machine in Taiwan (with the background knowledge of the Mechatronika MX80 since we disassembled the machine back then, and used relatively inexpensive parts too), the serviceability is in our hands now and it's a nice feeling to have everything under control.

Mechatronika is very much a standard machine just like the chinese ones. portal + Z / Theta that's it (while the chinese ones have multiple heads at least). There are so many servos out there which can be used, however Delta really shined with their international support (trying to help sorting out our Mechatronika problems which was not even their job).

The Mechatronika Machine offers far less value than chinese machinery, spare parts are a rip off (and can even be manufactured as single parts even cheaper than you buy it from them - eg nozzles, from professional CNC companies you can get 10 for the price of one from Mechatronika, the chinese Juki nozzles are also okay; I did not experience magnetic issues or a runout (the runout that applied in my case was my own mechanical calibration problem, and not related to nozzles bought from china)).

If you can go trouble free with a chinese machine for your products it's a big plus, certainly not all products are suitable for those mid / low range models and might require more rework after the pick and place process.

The Juki / Yamahas which were used for assembling our products were close to trouble free the PCBs that came out of it were 99.9% spot on and required very little rework if at all. The main issues were usually related to stencil or reflow oven -- so experience (and preparation) of the operator mattered. eg. baking parts, reflow oven settings have to match with IC specs, the reflow ovens have to operate in a calibrated manner.. it call can go out of calibration if sensors have issues.

Would I go for Juki / Yamaha / ASM for our products? Probably not, even our own machine is idle for over half a month. It has to work when we need it that's all.
Would I go for a chinese machine? With our background knowledge, our software and existing machine blueprints now, also no..
I'd rather build a second machine and chain them up.

For a beginner with less money I'd probably advise to go for a chinese machine, and maybe spend one month in deeply understanding the machine (you said you wrote your own software for it, I just don't know to which extend and what your requirement is, finally you wrote you're using a Hanwha.. so your requirement might be accordingly I guess).

There are many variables that might apply in deciding which machine to use... Some might get away with machines without vision while others badly need it.
Not having to deliver components to an assembly house, waiting for a slot, counting, assembling it taking them back and again is a big plus and time saver.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2024, 10:37:22 am by MR »
 
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Offline newto

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #153 on: January 29, 2024, 02:44:55 pm »
Long story short, I have a new firmware written from scratch for YY1 and I managed to assemble a few boards with OpenPnP!
Wow, congrats.  I am sure others would be keen to try that.

Thanks. I have published my firmware:
https://github.com/mdepx/neodenyy1

It lacks documentation but I'm working on it slowly.

That's awesome! I was hoping someone would manage this (or build a custom board), because I definitely don't have the skills for that.

If I read it right, you're running openPNP externally and passing the commands to the YY1 board over the UART in the main screen port, and the new cameras are connected to the external device? (raspberry pi?). I'm not super familiar with openPNP, but I think I have some research to do before I start messing with a machine that I didn't pay for. Do you have any links for the cameras you used?

And I'm surprised the cameras weren't just USB, I assumed they were and possibly even the small displays as well.

Next step is powered feeders (or at least some kind of lock for tapes that won't cooperate with the peelers)
« Last Edit: January 29, 2024, 03:21:22 pm by newto »
 

Offline br

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #154 on: January 29, 2024, 03:38:25 pm »
Long story short, I have a new firmware written from scratch for YY1 and I managed to assemble a few boards with OpenPnP!
Wow, congrats.  I am sure others would be keen to try that.

Thanks. I have published my firmware:
https://github.com/mdepx/neodenyy1

It lacks documentation but I'm working on it slowly.

That's awesome! I was hoping someone would manage this (or build a custom board), because I definitely don't have the skills for that.

If I read it right, you're running openPNP externally and passing the commands to the YY1 board over the UART in the main screen port, and the new cameras are connected to the external device? (raspberry pi?). I'm not super familiar with openPNP, but I think I have some research to do before I start messing with a machine that I didn't pay for. Do you have any links for the cameras you used?

And I'm surprised the cameras weren't just USB, I assumed they were and possibly even the small displays as well.

Next step is powered feeders (or at least some kind of lock for tapes that won't cooperate with the peelers)

Yes, the main screen port, which is 4 pin UART (+5v, rx, tx, ground).
OpenPnP is running on a PC box, USB cameras are connected directly to the same PC.
OpenPnP talks to the motion controller (I call it main board on the firmware page) over UART.
I will post hopefully this week links to cameras and gerbers of PCBs that hold them. Also the bottom LED ring.

The first challenge for everyone interested would be to find a suitable debugger and try to read out your old firmware. I noticed there are some magnetic fields around so you need to play a bit with cables
 

Offline newto

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #155 on: January 29, 2024, 06:53:53 pm »

The first challenge for everyone interested would be to find a suitable debugger and try to read out your old firmware. I noticed there are some magnetic fields around so you need to play a bit with cables

Would removing the main board from the machine before messing with the software help? I can't imagine the cheap stepper drivers and all the other signalling and power going through the same board helps that situation. Definitely a little hesitant to risk a corrupted backup with nothing to compare it to if something goes wrong with the update process. If it was my own machine I'd be much more eager, but I don't want to try to explain to my boss why I broke our expensive hardware playing with it and need to order a new mainboard. And I swear my firmware from September 2022 has fewer bugs (or at least fewer critical bugs) than some of the newer machines people have received, so I wouldn't want to lose this version.

I'm excited to give it a try once you get more of the details up though, I know a lot of people have been interested in getting them to run more reliable software
 

Offline br

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #156 on: January 29, 2024, 07:51:35 pm »
Would removing the main board from the machine before messing with the software help? I can't imagine the cheap stepper drivers and all the other signalling and power going through the same board helps that situation. Definitely a little hesitant to risk a corrupted backup with nothing to compare it to if something goes wrong with the update process. If it was my own machine I'd be much more eager, but I don't want to try to explain to my boss why I broke our expensive hardware playing with it and need to order a new mainboard. And I swear my firmware from September 2022 has fewer bugs (or at least fewer critical bugs) than some of the newer machines people have received, so I wouldn't want to lose this version.

I'm excited to give it a try once you get more of the details up though, I know a lot of people have been interested in getting them to run more reliable software

You will need to remove it to solder down 2.54mm header for SWD, but I'd recommend then to put board back and connect a debugger permanently, this gives you a possibility to update firmware any time later. Debuggers are cheap, just leave one there forever.
Also the board has to be powered during firmware update, otherwise stm32 does not receive power.
If you want just to try and have quick access to the back of machine, you can just hold cables with fingers for the backup and update procedure.

Note that you may need like a month or so to dive into OpenPnP as things may not appear straightforward.

(not sure if a dedicated thread is needed for YY1-firmware related discussions?)
« Last Edit: January 29, 2024, 07:57:39 pm by br »
 

Offline glenenglish

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #157 on: January 29, 2024, 10:37:06 pm »
I could probably write a lot, we outsourced for some time and I saw how Juki / Yamaha assembly lines processed our PCBs...
(truncated)
Chinese lower end are better serviceable with standard parts by yourself I'd say, we have built our own machine in Taiwan (with the background knowledge of the Mechatronika MX80 since we disassembled the machine back then, and used relatively inexpensive parts too), the serviceability is is a big plus and time saver.
Nice writeup MR, very useful info for everyone.
 

Offline Friedl.b

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #158 on: May 19, 2024, 04:58:32 pm »
Hi -

I have had my YY1 not for a while and have not been able to get a single board placed without any (many) issue   |O

For now I have given up on placing IC's that are not on a reel or cut strip.  To be honest, I will be very happy if I can get to to place passives and LEDs on the actual footprint and not next to it.  I will give the machine the benefit of the doubt and pretend it is me, but I am out of ideas and YouTube videos to watch.  My workflow is as follow:

- Import CSV file
- Set up feeders and set Needle and Pick positions
- Load file and set up 1st component and fiducial (set up components if needed, but mostly do this in CSV)
- Go to MOUNT
- Click on STEP until it finds the fiducial

From there I have tried two different approaches:

1. Suggested by Neoden support - once there fiducial and a component has been selected there is no need to fine tune placement.  Apparently the view this show slightly off most of the time, is just and indication and the machine will place it on the exact location of the PNP file.  Unsurprisingly this approach did not work at all.

2. After finding the fiducial, I click in ALLIGN and then fine tune each component making sure to hit the SAVE button after each one.  Here I Het mixed results, I would guess around 25% of the components are spot on, the rest is off by quite a lot.

Am I doing something wrong?

Regards, Friedl.
 
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Offline Aspartame

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #159 on: May 22, 2024, 01:08:35 pm »
That toy machine is a joke, don't waste any time with it.
 

Offline Friedl.b

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #160 on: May 22, 2024, 05:29:38 pm »
Hi -

Oh no, really??

I mainly use it for prototypes so it is hard to justify spending much more on a machine that will not be used to generate income.  I was hoping this Ould at least be able to do that.

Regards
Friedl
 

Offline level6

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #161 on: May 23, 2024, 04:33:24 am »
Have you calibrated the nozzle/camera offset? Make sure the fiducial is being recognized properly. Also, make sure the zero corner location is correct.

I have a YY1 and it works pretty well. After pressing Mount and locating the fiducial, I check all the component locations and adjust if needed.
 

Offline Friedl.b

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #162 on: May 23, 2024, 06:17:21 am »
Hi @lesson6

I really wish that was my problem as it would be an easy fix :)

I did check the nozzle calibration just before I ran the job and it was pretty much spot on still from the previous calibration.  Is there another calibration for the camera? 

With regards to the corner, I wonder whether that might be the issue.  ALL but three components of were off by more more less the same distance to one side.  I would guess around 1-2mm.  The board has 2mm rounded corner, but the '0/0 bracket' do seem to grab on the side of the board which is at x = 0.

About the fiducial, it does pick it up.  It shows a circle in the middle, then large black space but then picks up an area all around the fiducial again.  According the support (yes I reported this before to Nedoden) it was glare from the Purple Soldermask, so this time I used green.  Same result  |O

I am under no illusion that this is a production machine, but would think at least I would be able to do prototypes more professionally but at this stage I am better off placing by hand  :-DD  I place components at 75% speed, should I slow it down even more maybe?  On thing I am unsure of is pic-height and place-height.  If from reels I suppose pick-height is zero right?  Place-heigh should be roughly the height of the component?  For passives I just leave this at zero.

Regards
Friedl.

 

Offline level6

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #163 on: May 24, 2024, 04:40:00 am »
I would definitely check the PCB Origin calibration. Are you on the Pick and Place Owners Club discord? There's sizable amount of YY1 info there.
 
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Offline Friedl.b

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #164 on: May 24, 2024, 06:48:00 am »
Hi -

Great thanks, I will look for that.  I am not, but will search for it in Discord.  Thanks!!
 

Offline Friedl.b

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #165 on: May 25, 2024, 06:55:48 am »
Hi -

Quote
Pick and Place Owners Club

I am not finding this server one discord, do you perhaps have the URL?
 


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