Author Topic: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine  (Read 37837 times)

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Offline NF6X

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #75 on: January 31, 2023, 05:04:52 pm »
Yeah! I see much better performance in folks' videos of their OpenPnP builds. I wonder if the SMTmax machines have been updated since those videos were made?

Incidentally, I decided to order a CL feeder clone from YX through eBay, just to experiment with. I've never had my hands on a real feeder. Jim really wanted to upsell me to a whole SMT550 machine with some free feeders thrown in. It's a shame that I don't have the cash handy for that right now. I don't think I have room in my tiny lab for a conveyer machine, anyway.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #76 on: May 25, 2023, 04:28:14 am »
The same machine that I was keen on last time that got pulled from the market is up for sale again.

Quote
Madell PX3700 SMT Pick & Place
-2 Camera system
-added vacuum table
- Large range of cassettes to cover many component sizes.
Lots of Extras
complete system that needs TLC
Madell AE-R330A IR Oven
Working conveyor system

$1k starting bid, Buy it Now $5k
Plus travel cost to go pick it up in Canberra.

Who thinks I should get this?

On the one hand I could get it cheap, with a lot of feeders.
On the other hand I can't really find any info on this, seems like a really old model, and I doubt there is any community support.
Also, any videos on it do not help the community as much as getting say a YY1 and playing (struggling?) with that?
Also, the 5 stage oven is nice, but it's 6kW and I don't have the power infrastructure for that in my dungeon or bunker. So it's effectively useless, I wouldn't even take it. Nor could it fit in my car.

Thoughts please, 3 days left.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #77 on: May 25, 2023, 04:29:16 am »
more photos:
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #78 on: May 25, 2023, 04:33:57 am »
More
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #79 on: May 25, 2023, 04:36:21 am »
I found the info page. 2012 vintage, Windows XP
http://www.madelltech.com/PX3700.html
 

Offline MR

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #80 on: May 25, 2023, 07:20:35 am »
Forget commercial single head pick and place machines immediately! They aren't worth any money on the market anymore. Maybe 100$ for the used aluminum profiles might be worth it.

If someone sells a new single head pick and place machine that just shows that they don't care about the customers and never kept going on with adding more heads. I wouldn't even dare to list a single head machine on a webshop anymore in 2023

From the videos I see they're using CVBS cameras (I might be wrong but it looks like that), those cost 10$ on ali-express (but also support AHD already, so they might be even cheaper on taobao). A decent USB adapter with good CVBS chip costs like 70-100$, but it's absolutely outdated for component recognition.
The problem with CVBS is interlacing you have to wait until the picture is stable, which makes the machine even slower (in theory around 30-40ms until 2 half frames are matched)

The camera lenses aren't well selected either, the top head almost looks like a fish-eye camera

That guy made a nice video:


I agree with everything he says, and there's still more to say of course.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2023, 08:58:20 am by MR »
 

Offline Styno

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #81 on: May 25, 2023, 09:41:38 am »
Dave, you really have to ask yourself again why you are buying a low-end pick and place machine. It's easy to look at the mechanical and financial part of a pick and place machine, but that says nothing about the value of the machine to you. The XYZ mechanical part of a low end p&p is nothing special, there's not much different than a 3D printer and the difference between a usable and bad p&p is mostly determined by the feeders, optical part recognition and software.

If you do it for our educational value: well, no-one uses or buys this particular machine so who will benefit from you tinkering and face palming with it?

If you do it for production of your own designs then I think you also should look somewhere else. Granted, I don't have experience or seen any reviews of this brand/machine but, if you want to have a machine that helps you, you need good feeders with reliable picking of parts. Newer parts are getting smaller and smaller so you need feeders that are at least capable of handling 0201 well so it will do 0402 really reliably so you don't spend your time fiddling with the feeders. The part recognition should also be flexible to adapt to non-symetric footprints and small pitch components. Otherwise you will have to do a lot of rework or manual placement of odd parts. See it in action, bring your own design to their place and have them setup one of the challenging parts and see how easy the process is and how well the machine is handling it. Can't do that? Well, don't buy it unless you know from other reviews it's going to be suitable for you.

Don't buy a machine just because it's cheap! I hope this helps...
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #82 on: May 25, 2023, 09:53:56 am »
In terms of content, I think a  YY1 would be of far more value to more people. Publicity on its flaws may even prompt Neoden to improve things.
A rare old machine like this could end up being a millstone - any numbee of minor issues could render it unuseable and unrepairable
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #83 on: May 25, 2023, 10:26:22 am »
In terms of content, I think a  YY1 would be of far more value to more people. Publicity on its flaws may even prompt Neoden to improve things.
A rare old machine like this could end up being a millstone - any numbee of minor issues could render it unuseable and unrepairable

That's what my gut tells me.
Also, I'm liking the look of the Neoden coveyor oven. Pricey, but looks very nice and doesn't take much power.
https://neodenusa.com/smt-reflow-ovens/neoden-in6




 

Offline edu.vg82

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #84 on: May 25, 2023, 11:18:18 am »
Hi, i buy zengbang ZB3245TS a year ago. The machine works ok, but i see some "problems".
  - It need and air compresor only to pull down the needle than move the components strip... better electric alternatives exists.
  - It use 2 analog cameras (with creepy resolution) connected to an adquisition board... really, with the amaizing and cheap amount of USB cameras avaliable?
  - The software (IMHO) is a real shit.

Im triying to use it with openpnp, or make a new software to control it, but without broke or change the machine, at least until it is fully operational, i work with it and no downtime is allowed. One software works in a reliable way i try to improbe cameras or other thinks.

Im currently analyzing the protocol (serial port. looks like plain text ). If anyone have this machine and is interested, or have any information please leave a message.

 

Offline asmi

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #85 on: May 25, 2023, 01:21:28 pm »
Also, I'm liking the look of the Neoden coveyor oven. Pricey, but looks very nice and doesn't take much power.
It's actually about 2.5K$ + shipping in Neoden's Aliexpress store. To Canada express shipping via DHL is about 1.5K$, but you should check how much it's going to cost for you - unless you have Neoden's resellers locally, in which case I would buy from them even if it would be more expensive - because in that case you will have someone local to call up should something go wrong. Also I seem to recall your fellow countryman @sean was/is using that oven a lot, so he might have something to say about it. I used to watch his streams back when I had a bit more spare time to do so, and I remember in the beginning he had some issues with firmware, but after update things started working just fine. Some people here also complained about burning out heating elements, but that seems to be specific to 120 V version (due to larger current perhaps), and even there it doesn't seem to happen that often. This oven would be my number 1 choice should I ever outgrow my current drawer-style oven.
 
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Offline loki42

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #86 on: May 25, 2023, 10:25:02 pm »
If you really want one for youtube content buy what ever Chinese one is popular today.  You can also drop in to anyone with a mainstream machine to see how they are meant to work.  You're welcome to setup some boards on mine if you want.  I just bought another 37 spindle machine (2 beams) to complement my 30 spindle,  so my 11 spindle is going to be idle until I get it doing  PTH insertion. You can often pick up decent machines for next to nothing at auction if you're fine with second hand.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #87 on: May 26, 2023, 12:57:35 am »
If you really want one for youtube content buy what ever Chinese one is popular today. 

Only two major choices really, the YY1 or the LumenPnP
 

Offline Dacian

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #88 on: May 26, 2023, 04:27:30 am »
Only two major choices really, the YY1 or the LumenPnP

I recommend looking at Charmhigh.
I have the old CHMT28 no vision and produced thousands of board over the past few years.
I'm looking to upgrade mostly because CHMT28 only has 17 feeders and I could use quite a bit more.
The friction feeders where the main problem in the past but I upgraded mine to the newer ones that have two small hex screws in each film collector wheel and you can adjust friction and for me those work great.
The YY1 not only has no friction adjustment (just some fixed friction rings that will never work as it was the case for the ones that initially came with my machine).
The YY1 is also way to slow for my needs half of less the speed of my current machine.
I'm looking at the CHMT48VA witch is the same as the CHMT36VA you where considering it is just that it has a built in Linux computer and 7" LCD and for me that is worth the extra cost as I do not want to deal with a separate computer and Windows. From what I understand on the 36VA the video is sent over USB and the two cameras are multiplexed so there are sometime some issues because of that. The embedded computer in the 48VA has separate access to each camera.
If you need more than 22 - 8mm + 4x - 12mm + 2x - 16mm and 1x 24mm the you can look at the VB variants instead of VA as those have double that with feeders on both side of the machine. I do not need more than VA and I'm also quite limited in space.
The other option I was looking at is the Tronstol E1 as it seems the most advanced but is a bit new and likely not quite ready at this time.
The Tronstol E1 compared to all others in this class has laser sensors (they call this 3D CCD fly-ing camera) so it can check the position of components for both head without the need to go to a dedicated camera (faster) and it only works for passives with two pins.
The other plus is the grating ruler for both X and Y also not available on any of the others.
It also has a 5 position head nozzle changer but not sure if the software for that is ready based on some reviews I seen.
They also have an oven MR30 that is fairly good for low volume. The oven will likely not be the limiting factor and the Neoden oven is best value if you need relatively high volume.
Tronstol is somehow associated with Neoden or part of Neoden.
I will likely go with Charmhigh CHMT48VA in about 2 months unless I find something better. I know that will work and I have little if anything to learn.
 
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Offline huababua

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #89 on: May 26, 2023, 03:41:32 pm »
Who thinks I should get this?

If you go for an (old) used one, I would really go for a more known brand like a Juki KLE2040 or a Yamaha/Samsung.
There are plenty of spare parts available and you also get SW/troubleshooting support as these machines are commonly used.

For a new one, definetly get one with "real" feeders. From taking pictures and moving parts around every machine can to it nowadays. But when you want to have at least a baseline of reliability I would go for a machine with feeders.
 

Offline Dacian

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #90 on: May 26, 2023, 04:35:46 pm »
For a new one, definetly get one with "real" feeders. From taking pictures and moving parts around every machine can to it nowadays. But when you want to have at least a baseline of reliability I would go for a machine with feeders.

A new one with "real" feeders will be at least double the proposed budget of 5k$.
Electric feeders will be even more expensive and the pneumatic ones "clones" are not without issues and require an external compressor (can be fairly noisy and adds extra cost and complexity).
This simpler pick an place like the Charmhigh that I own and operate will do the job once they are properly setup.
The machine works for hours with no interventions other that when I need to change a reel of components. The more complex the machine the more things that can go wrong.
For this machine's what creates the problems is the friction film collectors and since I upgraded to the ones that have hex screws to adjust the friction everything works great with occasionally every few days needing to adjust friction on one of them (takes 10 seconds to reduce the friction if it pulls components out or increase the friction if the film is not collected).
Once you used a full reel the collected film needs to be removed from the spool and takes also maybe 10 seconds to do that.
I do not understand the film collection on Neoden YY1 and similar model's (that film will be all over the place likely interfering with operation or you need to always trim it). But the complain I heard about that is the glue on the film makes it so that it accumulates on that rollers and then it no longer works properly and gets the film the wrong way as film has basically no weight.
I like the Neoden YY1 if it was not for the slow speed and maybe I could have adapted the friction film collectors from Charmhigh (should be very simple if the rotating axle is 10mm diameter).
 
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #91 on: May 27, 2023, 06:14:47 am »
FYI, Neoden have confirmed to me that they have no intention to allow users to update their own firmware, and an entire board swap is the only way to update the machine.  :--
 
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #92 on: May 29, 2023, 12:42:10 am »
The Mandell didn't sell on ebay, and it's been relisted:
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/225595362155
 

Offline Kean

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #93 on: May 29, 2023, 02:10:52 am »
The Mandell didn't sell on ebay, and it's been relisted:
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/225595362155

Not surprising.  It seems like a bad choice except for someone who already has a Madell brand machine and needs spares.  It is not even a great deal even for someone after a "project".  I wonder if that style of feeders are even still available to purchase.

The best (and possibly *only* good) thing about my second-hand Charmhigh is that I can use bog standard CL feeders that are readily available, and could also be used on any future machines.  My desktop Neoden is a pain in the butt as it doesn't have removable feeders, but it was a good starting machine for me at the time I got it (~6 years ago).
 

Offline Kean

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #94 on: May 29, 2023, 02:16:46 am »
FYI, Neoden have confirmed to me that they have no intention to allow users to update their own firmware, and an entire board swap is the only way to update the machine.  :--

This has always been the way they operate.  It probably hasn't had too much of an impact on their market share.

My old Neoden TM240A has a few annoying bugs, but nothing I can't work around and get work done.  It is just a bit of a time waster having to power cycle to clear some errors, which then reintroduces at least one bug which can occur after each start up.
 
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Offline SMTech

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #95 on: May 29, 2023, 10:41:15 am »
FYI, Neoden have confirmed to me that they have no intention to allow users to update their own firmware, and an entire board swap is the only way to update the machine.  :--

This has always been the way they operate.  It probably hasn't had too much of an impact on their market share.

My old Neoden TM240A has a few annoying bugs, but nothing I can't work around and get work done.  It is just a bit of a time waster having to power cycle to clear some errors, which then reintroduces at least one bug which can occur after each start up.

I think the reasoning is fairly fundamental, they consider their machines to be appliances, appliances don't get updates; they function as sold. It might seem counter intuitive compared to how other things in our lives function in 2023 but you have to acknowledge that supporting customer applied firmware updates adds another layer of support requirement, documentation and organization to maintain compatibility between software, firmware, board versions and 3rd party hardware such as cameras. If I compare that to our Essemtec, we no longer get software updates without paying hefty sums on money for the privilege, the software contains the firmware images and tools to update the various electronic controllers on the machine and feeders, these parts may well have updates but we will never see them.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Offline Kean

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #97 on: May 31, 2023, 09:31:27 am »
Another contender?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/smallsmt-vision-placer-pick-place-machines/msg4885127/#msg4885127

Having push feeders is not great, but it is a fair compromise of cost vs part loading/changeover time.  If you are just running a few simple in-house designs then this may be acceptable.

The 15mm Z height and 6-slot nozzle changer are nice features compared to others I've seen, as are the feeders on 3-sides - but that would require a lot of open working space all around it.
 
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Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #98 on: May 31, 2023, 10:15:21 am »
Push feeders are OK IF they work reliably. I do wonder about how well they work with thin plastic tapes, which are extremely sensitive to any jarring that can bounce parts out.
It would be nice to have provision for a few "real" feeders for jobs where a large number of the same parts are being placed.
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Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #99 on: May 31, 2023, 10:59:19 am »
Push feeders are OK IF they work reliably. I do wonder about how well they work with thin plastic tapes, which are extremely sensitive to any jarring that can bounce parts out.
It would be nice to have provision for a few "real" feeders for jobs where a large number of the same parts are being placed.
Had their earlier machine. The push feeder is just d**ks. Leading tape snapping (only 3 level of tightness adjustment) pushing not consistent, mechanism is just fiddly. I spent most of the time trying to get the feeder just work and it will fail halfway during the job.  Gave up and sold it off.
 
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