Author Topic: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine  (Read 37911 times)

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Offline SMTech

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #100 on: May 31, 2023, 11:28:03 am »
Push feeders are OK IF they work reliably. I do wonder about how well they work with thin plastic tapes, which are extremely sensitive to any jarring that can bounce parts out.
It would be nice to have provision for a few "real" feeders for jobs where a large number of the same parts are being placed.
Had their earlier machine. The push feeder is just d**ks. Leading tape snapping (only 3 level of tightness adjustment) pushing not consistent, mechanism is just fiddly. I spent most of the time trying to get the feeder just work and it will fail halfway during the job.  Gave up and sold it off.

There's one of their other models on eBay right now in Dorset...
 

Offline Smallsmt

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #101 on: May 31, 2023, 09:18:52 pm »
Push feeders are OK IF they work reliably. I do wonder about how well they work with thin plastic tapes, which are extremely sensitive to any jarring that can bounce parts out.
It would be nice to have provision for a few "real" feeders for jobs where a large number of the same parts are being placed.
Had their earlier machine. The push feeder is just d**ks. Leading tape snapping (only 3 level of tightness adjustment) pushing not consistent, mechanism is just fiddly. I spent most of the time trying to get the feeder just work and it will fail halfway during the job.  Gave up and sold it off.

The Push feeder is working much better than drag feeder!

Comfortable solution is to use CL Feeder but at a higher price, and need more space.

 

Offline mairo

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #102 on: June 01, 2023, 02:03:36 am »
As mentioned by others, I do not think Dave needs a PnP/assembly line and I do not think he can create good useful content on it not because Dave is not capable, but because as he said, it seems something that he is looking for a content. Since he does not like reading manuals much to start with ;) and to produce quality content one really need also to work with the machine/assembly process on daily bases I do not see how this can turn up with quality content. Lets not forget that Dave do have a PnP to start with!  ;)

However, if Dave still intends to acquire something, here are my wild suggestions:

Option 1 - LumenPnP for the simplest reason to help promote the system as the guys are putting some good work into it. Although it may not be a "proper" machine yet, progress takes time.

Option 2: This option requires a budget of approximately AU$1 million, but stay with me. With that amount, Dave could invest in a package from NanoDimentions, who recently acquired Essemtec. The package includes their new 3D PCB printer (improved design compared to previous versions) + 1x Fox2 machine with feeders and a solder paste jetting valve, along with their 400 series oven. This package is compact, capable, and operates in an inline manner. Funding for this investment could potentially (only) come from a government grant that Dave can apply for. Considering the potential return on investment in terms of content creation for the EE community and local STEM programs, it might prove more beneficial to the government compared to grants given to others. The 3D PCB printer offers numerous intriguing content possibilities, which will require Dave to 'improve' his skills in SolidWorks rather than Altium (in which I am sure he has plenty of skills).  ;)
 

Offline loki42

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #103 on: June 01, 2023, 11:30:08 pm »
Possible Options 3)  do some videos at local manufacturers or pcb assemblers.  I'd be happy to teach him how our Universal Instruments, MPM , essemtec and Koh Young gear works.  I'd be happy to let him run some boards too.

Seon (unexpected maker) just got a fancy brand new Juki system so I'm sure he'd be happy to show off that a bit.  There's also a bunch of other people with lines that would be happy to teach how to use them.  People manufacturing their own stuff are probably more open to it, as I don't have to worry about time lines from external customers etc. 
 
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Offline Smallsmt

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #104 on: June 02, 2023, 12:02:12 pm »
Quote
Seon (unexpected maker) just got a fancy brand new Juki system
What happened to his NEODEN K1830?
 

Online asmi

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #105 on: June 02, 2023, 01:18:33 pm »
Possible Options 3)  do some videos at local manufacturers or pcb assemblers.  I'd be happy to teach him how our Universal Instruments, MPM , essemtec and Koh Young gear works.  I'd be happy to let him run some boards too.

Seon (unexpected maker) just got a fancy brand new Juki system so I'm sure he'd be happy to show off that a bit.  There's also a bunch of other people with lines that would be happy to teach how to use them.  People manufacturing their own stuff are probably more open to it, as I don't have to worry about time lines from external customers etc.
That won't be nearly as interesting because there is no way an average Joe can get their hands on these machines, while the likes of YY1 are within a reach of "advanced hobbyists" - the kind of people who buy TMI in the same price range, basically one level up from typical cheap hobbyist stuff. For example there is a plenty of hobbyists with spectrum analyzers, and their prices START in the same ballpark as some of the cheaper PnP machines.

And if you exclude the fact that viewers can actually buy machine they see on a screen, there is no need to make any videos - there are a metric ton of them already on Youtube, so Dave's video will be simply yet another grain in that pile. I can speak for myself - I'm personally not interested in videos about yet another PnP monster which costs more than my car and which I know I will never get to use in the real life - I've seen enough of them already.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2023, 01:20:40 pm by asmi »
 
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Offline Kean

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #106 on: June 02, 2023, 02:21:22 pm »
Quote
Seon (unexpected maker) just got a fancy brand new Juki system
What happened to his NEODEN K1830?

Like the Charmhigh T560P4 he had before it (which I am now using), the Neoden K1830 was becoming "increasingly problematic".  It had its good days and bad days, and he just didn't get enough support from Neoden to troubleshoot it.  I think he had most of the issues sorted out, but it could basically just decide to ruin his day at a moments notice.  Another Aussie company with a similar Neoden PnP that has lots of experience fixing issues is buying it from him, possibly just for the spare parts and feeders.
 
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Offline loki42

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #107 on: June 02, 2023, 04:19:20 pm »
Yeah,  I've seen factory tours but almost no actual tutorials on how to load a feeder,  how to program a component for pnp,  how to program the stencil printer,  spi etc.  I think those would be actually interesting to a broad audience because of you're getting the board assembled by someone else they'll have normal machines not Chinese stuff and you can learn to what some issues with your design,  bom, panalisation etc might be.  Without working on my line I wouldn't know much about the stencil issues of different parts,  the difficulty of feeding certain trim pots,  the humidity sensitivity of certain parts,  the challenges of tall, very large or tray / tube parts.  All this contributes to cost and reliability.

Yet another demo of a non functional Chinese machine isn't that handy to me.
 

Online asmi

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #108 on: June 02, 2023, 05:20:16 pm »
Yeah,  I've seen factory tours but almost no actual tutorials on how to load a feeder,  how to program a component for pnp,  how to program the stencil printer,  spi etc.  I think those would be actually interesting to a broad audience because of you're getting the board assembled by someone else they'll have normal machines not Chinese stuff and you can learn to what some issues with your design,  bom, panalisation etc might be.  Without working on my line I wouldn't know much about the stencil issues of different parts,  the difficulty of feeding certain trim pots,  the humidity sensitivity of certain parts,  the challenges of tall, very large or tray / tube parts.  All this contributes to cost and reliability.
There issues are of zero concern for any but the largest volume runs. I could care less how to load a feeder, or how to program the stencil printer, neither of which I know I will ever touch in my life. And besides, I suspect that most electronics in the world IS actually assembled by Chinese machines (just not cheap ones).

Yet another demo of a non functional Chinese machine isn't that handy to me.
Yeah, I got that our interests are at odds here. The question is how many potential viewers have access to these uber-expensive machines vs those who can only afford cheap ones and so don't care for uber stuff? I think the answer is rather obvious, especially since the former already know everything there is to know about their machine anyway (because those machines typically come with training), and so they probably won't be interested in those videos as well.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2023, 05:23:18 pm by asmi »
 

Offline loki42

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #109 on: June 03, 2023, 01:00:56 am »
Yeah,  I think that's why it made sense for people who are YouTubers and do some manufacturing to go for Chinese hobby machines. I've alas never got training with any of my gear,  though I am with my selective solderer that was meant to be arriving a few months ago...

As for machines used in China if you watch factory tours or go there you'll see it's majority Fuji NXT then Panasonic and ASM / Siemens at the volume end then juki / Yamaha at the high mix end. Some UIC, and other brands but they are more common in Taiwan (currently Taiwanese owned).
 

Offline Friedl.b

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #110 on: December 04, 2023, 07:48:47 am »
Hi -

Apologies for reviving an old post, not sure whether it is preferred to start a new one related to this or revive old ones :)

I have been considering buying a PnP for quite a while now.  Our weak currency is probably what is keeping me form pulling the trigger on this as even the entry level ones e.g. Lumen or Neon YY! is quite pricey in SA Rands.  Having said this, I think it is time.   I am not bluffing myself in thinking this machine is going to make a a ton of money, but it would be nice it it can pay for itself over a year or two.

The main purpose for me would be to provide my clients with "better quality" prototypes on their designs.  I already have a Stencil printer and reflow oven, but the PnP has always eluded me due to the pricing.   I am fairly sure the Lumen will meet my needs, but with Neoden specials now on, it makes me wonder whether getting the YY1 is not the better option.  I do prefer OpenPnP and the electronic feeders on the Lumen, but it seems the Neoden YY1 is overall just a more capable machine?

Would appreciate some advice :)

Regards
Friedl.
 

Offline SMTech

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #111 on: December 04, 2023, 11:53:20 am »
I don't have either, but I have seen nothing in this forum to suggest openPnP is a reason to choose the Lumen over the YY1. Both are flawed low cost machines but day to day the YY1 should be better. Enthusiasm alone does not a good machine make.
 

Offline level6

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #112 on: December 04, 2023, 03:21:13 pm »
I own a YY1 and, overall, I'm pretty satisfied with it. You can be up and running the same day you unpack it. The same cannot be said for the Lumen.

Depending on your volume and budget, you might want to look at machines from HWGC. An entry level machine is twice the cost of the YY1 but very capable and less cost than the higher end Neoden models.
 
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Offline Friedl.b

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #113 on: December 04, 2023, 08:01:53 pm »
Hi -

Thanks!!  My workload on the machine will be quite light to be honest.  I would say anything between 50 and 400 components on a board, nothing smaller than 0603.  IC's are mostly QFN with 0.4m pitch.

Doubt I will exceed runs of more than 20 as it will be used almost exclusively for prototyping.   To have the option to so small runs of course is a good thing :)

Regards, Friedl.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #114 on: December 04, 2023, 08:21:58 pm »
Hi -

Thanks!!  My workload on the machine will be quite light to be honest.  I would say anything between 50 and 400 components on a board, nothing smaller than 0603.  IC's are mostly QFN with 0.4m pitch.

Doubt I will exceed runs of more than 20 as it will be used almost exclusively for prototyping.   To have the option to so small runs of course is a good thing :)

Regards, Friedl.
Quite light can be the hardest workload for automated assembly. When you are doing it a lot you settle into a groove, and things flow. If your load is light you need to keep reacquiring the skill.
 
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Offline Friedl.b

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #115 on: December 04, 2023, 08:27:49 pm »
Hi -

My best estimate is that I will use it most likely 2-3 times per week.  Thinking was use feeders for 'standard passives' and maybe regulators I use often and then use IC trays or strip feeders for other components unique to a design.

I understand what you are saying though...  but I am just a little over placing e.g. 20 boards with 400+ components on by hand  :)

Regards, Friedl.
 

Offline level6

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #116 on: December 05, 2023, 05:09:41 am »
In that case I think the YY1 would do well. 0603 placement would be no problem at all.
 
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Offline Friedl.b

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #117 on: December 05, 2023, 05:46:25 am »
Thank you for all the feedback.  My mind is spinning as this would be quite a large investment for me.  As I am a designer first and foremost, investing so much into hardware is 'challenging' :)

Initially I was liking the electronic feeders on the LumenPNP.  At the moment though, the YY1 is selling at $2200 with is only $300 more than the LumenPnP without any feeders.  Some videos and threads with regards to the YY1 mechanical feeders made me weary though, specially due to the lack of local support.

Really appreciate all the feedback!!

Kind Regards,
Friedl.
 

Online newto

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #118 on: December 05, 2023, 02:38:05 pm »
We have a YY1, and it works great for our applications. There's a big thread for them with tips, tricks, and headaches that might be a good read if that's what you decide to go with.

The big thing for the YY1 is that changing out reals can be a pain, even more so if it's one near the middle. It's best if you either have a standard set of components for your boards, or only have 1 or two designs that you build and can fit all the components on the machine at once.

We were having boards assembled locally in Canada before, and paying a fortune for it because we only did small runs of 10-20 at a time (I'm pretty sure they were actually assembling them by hand, rather than setting up one of their machines for such a small order), so for us the machine will pay for itself in about 20-40 boards assembled.

It also makes prototyping a lot faster, I have it place all the passives off the reels, and the manually put in anything that wasn't loaded, turning a few hours of work into a few minutes.
 
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Offline Friedl.b

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #119 on: December 05, 2023, 07:16:58 pm »
THANKS!!

Prototyping is what I want it for mostly, with the option to do small runs.  Prototyping for me usually consist of  assembling 5-10 boards for client proving the design and doing some field testing.  We also have local assembly services but same as yours, they are very expensive on small runs making it a non starter for me.  Changing reels seems to be less of a hassle on the Lumen, providing you buy the electronic feeders.  Another benefit of the Lumen is probably (or maybe not) the fact that it runs openPnP??   

Should I buy the YY1 I would follow your approach, keeping 'standard' passives (leds, 10k resistors, 100nF caps etc) near the middle.  Another plus for me would be that I can now increase density on my designs as they will be placed by a robot  ;D

Regards, Friedl.
 

Offline Aspartame

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #120 on: December 16, 2023, 02:18:52 pm »
Has anybody tried this machine?
For $3100 it looks very promising.
It comes with ball screw drive and supports proper feeders.
Product height is 50cm, so fitting through doors is not a problem.
 

Offline meshtron

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #121 on: December 16, 2023, 04:07:56 pm »
Has anybody tried this machine?
For $3100 it looks very promising.
It comes with ball screw drive and supports proper feeders.
Product height is 50cm, so fitting through doors is not a problem.

I reached out to them multiple times in multiple ways before I made a purchase and never got a single response.  Nor could I find any actual user videos of the thing running.

Actually - looking closer at your picture, I thought it was the "Tornado SMT" that I had been looking at, but it's another one I'm unfamiliar with.

I ended up buying a QIHE TVM802BX which I'm pretty happy with so far.  Needle-indexing feeders aren't optimum, but keeps the cost down and (so far) they work consistently so I'm happy.
 

Offline Friedl.b

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #122 on: January 12, 2024, 02:13:32 pm »
Hi -

Ok, I took the plunge and bought a YY1.  So far so good BUT....

I have found that after selecting a reference component and fiducial, the actual components seem to still be off by quite a bit.  I then have to manually adjust each of the ±150 components before running the job. 

Is this to be expected? 

Regards,
Friedl
 

Offline level6

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #123 on: January 12, 2024, 03:32:28 pm »
Hi -

Ok, I took the plunge and bought a YY1.  So far so good BUT....

I have found that after selecting a reference component and fiducial, the actual components seem to still be off by quite a bit.  I then have to manually adjust each of the ±150 components before running the job. 

Is this to be expected? 

Not my experience with my YY1. Are you setting up the reference component correctly? Are you pressing the button to move to the next component position, rather than manually moving the camera?
 

Offline Friedl.b

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Re: Choosing a Desktop Pick and Place Machine
« Reply #124 on: January 12, 2024, 06:13:05 pm »
Hi -

Yes I do.  The procedure I follow (which might be incorrect as I am brand new to this) is:

1. Import file
2. Select fiducial and reference component.
3. Edit Components - Set feeders numbers etc.  Here when selecting the components and the camera moves to the applicable component, I can see it is off center and I have to adjust most of them. 

Granted that on this particular board I do not have a fiducial as I had them made before I got the PnP, but I have tried various other pads/holes on the board and the result is pretty much the same  :palm: 

Smallest components are 0603.  Does the footprint name of the component play any part?  I mean 0603D, 0603B or eg. 0603MFG ??
 


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