Counterfeit AKM Parts

[gnuarm]

I didn't say anything about suing anyone.  I said I would not return the items until compensated for my losses.  I am confident I can get my purchase price back through the credit card company.  I would like to recover the other money spent on getting these goods into the country and testing them.  The seller can still recover a portion of his losses by cooperating with me.

[thm_w]

The seller won't pay you anything unless they realllly care about their rep/rating. I don't see how he can recover "a portion of his losses", the chips are worthless.

I'm sure you could get a refund if you proved the items were returned or destroyed:
https://www.cbp.gov/trade/programs-administration/entry-summary/drawback
http://www.ftn.fedex.com/us/services/drawback.shtml

Whether its worth your time, I don't know.

[NorthGuy]

I am confident I can get my purchase price back through the credit card company.

Too sure of themselves Jedi are.

[Bassman59]

I am confident I can get my purchase price back through the credit card company.

Too sure of themselves Jedi are.

Oh, here in the US, certainly American Express and Discover, as well as Visa/MC cards issued by big banks, will immediately credit your account with the amount under dispute. And it is rare that a dispute will be settled in the merchant's favor -- the card issuers want to keep their cardholder customers, as they know those customers have a choice in what card to use. The merchants (the card issuer's other customers!) really have no choice if they want access to customer credit cards.

[gnuarm]

With the AKM parts I have learned what markings are on good parts and what markings indicate a counterfeit part.  That's not 100%, but good enough to at least eliminate the large majority of counterfeits.  I have wired $40,000 to a vendor who supplied me with 10 parts that have been tested.  This is mediated by Alibaba, so in theory I would be able to return the parts and get a refund if they are not good.

With the ADI part, things aren't so simple.  The AKM part has a date code and they will validated specific date codes if sent to them.  ADI won't divulge their marking format or any details.  They also won't provide an indication of valid or invalid markings if photos are sent to them.  So I can't say for sure that any parts are counterfeit by looking at images.  Every part I have handled in the 13 years I've been buying them was the same, the part number split onto three lines with the middle line containing the ADI logo and an embossed pin one mark.  Some 90% of the parts I find on the web put the part number on two lines with a pound sign and three digits on the third line, usually with a laser etched pine 1 mark.  I'm pretty sure these are counterfeit, but I can't be sure if ADI won't confirm their format in any way.  ADI did say a pound sign is used in part numbers (in general) to indicate lead free, but they won't say if this part uses that or not.  Every part I have is lead free, but no pound signs.

One distributor who seems to be other than an Alibaba phantom is chip1cloud.com.  They have emailed me that they have a number of the ADG1411YRUZ for a reasonable price.  But they want payment in advance and don't seem to be talking about an escrow agent.  I can't find anything on the web to indicate they are a scam operation.  Anyone heard of them or used them?

[coppice]

With the AKM parts I have learned what markings are on good parts and what markings indicate a counterfeit part.

Even when you work for a semiconductor vendor, and are used to its markings, it can be hard to reliably tell a fake. Sometimes you see labelling that looks a little different, think its a fake, and when you ask enough people you find a particular A&T house was used for some batches, and the labelling looks a little different. Its quite a messy business.

[gnuarm]

With the AKM parts I have learned what markings are on good parts and what markings indicate a counterfeit part.

Even when you work for a semiconductor vendor, and are used to its markings, it can be hard to reliably tell a fake. Sometimes you see labelling that looks a little different, think its a fake, and when you ask enough people you find a particular A&T house was used for some batches, and the labelling looks a little different. Its quite a messy business.

Yes, I have photos I sent to AKM a few years ago when we suspected parts that were labeled differently.  It was two different assembly houses.  At least AKM was and still is willing to work with me. 

Here is a photo of one of the ADI parts I suspect is fake.  Pin 1 mark is laser etched rather than embossed and the third line is not on any part I've bought.


Here is one of mine.

[SilverSolder]

I am confident I can get my purchase price back through the credit card company.

Too sure of themselves Jedi are.

Oh, here in the US, certainly American Express and Discover, as well as Visa/MC cards issued by big banks, will immediately credit your account with the amount under dispute. And it is rare that a dispute will be settled in the merchant's favor -- the card issuers want to keep their cardholder customers, as they know those customers have a choice in what card to use. The merchants (the card issuer's other customers!) really have no choice if they want access to customer credit cards.

Yep, merchants have to spread the cost of those refunds onto the rest of their customers...

[asmi]

With 4M$ order in my hands, I'd roll up sleeves and got on with redesign already instead of all this useless talking and complaining. And no matter the order amount, I would never ever ship a device to my commercial customer with chips from anywhere except official sources. Because sooner or later it will be discovered, and I don't really want to have a discussion about this with my customers as I can't think of a way for such conversations to go well for me.

[Mangozac]

With 4M$ order in my hands, I'd roll up sleeves and got on with redesign already instead of all this useless talking and complaining. And no matter the order amount, I would never ever ship a device to my commercial customer with chips from anywhere except official sources. Because sooner or later it will be discovered, and I don't really want to have a discussion about this with my customers as I can't think of a way for such conversations to go well for me.

As evident in his other recent thread, he's too busy working out ways to profit shift and dodge paying tax

[gnuarm]

With 4M$ order in my hands, I'd roll up sleeves and got on with redesign already instead of all this useless talking and complaining. And no matter the order amount, I would never ever ship a device to my commercial customer with chips from anywhere except official sources. Because sooner or later it will be discovered, and I don't really want to have a discussion about this with my customers as I can't think of a way for such conversations to go well for me.

Redesign is not an option.  The customer is fully aware of the situation and has even offered the names of brokers for these parts.  So nothing to discover.

[asmi]

Redesign is not an option.

Of course it's an option. Especially since you use FPGA so that you can make sure redesigned version works exactly like original (which is not always possible in non-FPGA designs).

[gnuarm]

Redesign is not an option.

Of course it's an option. Especially since you use FPGA so that you can make sure redesigned version works exactly like original (which is not always possible in non-FPGA designs).

Why do you say that when you know literally NOTHING about the business arrangement?

[asmi]

Why do you say that when you know literally NOTHING about the business arrangement?

Because I'm an engineer who was trained to never take "no" for an answer on whether something is possible. And because using gray market parts for commercial products is unethical (and can be also illegal in some cases). Finally, because it annoys the crap out of me when someone chooses to waste time bitching and moaning instead of rolling up sleeves and doing what needs to be done, even though knowing full well that it will need to happen at some point anyway.
"Those who wants to do something are looking for a way, those who don't want to do it are looking for excuse" (C)

[wraper]

Why do you say that when you know literally NOTHING about the business arrangement?

Because I'm an engineer who was trained to never take "no" for an answer on whether something is possible. And because using gray market parts for commercial products is unethical (and can be also illegal in some cases). Finally, because it annoys the crap out of me when someone chooses to waste time bitching and moaning instead of rolling up sleeves and doing what needs to be done, even though knowing full well that it will need to happen at some point anyway.
"Those who wants to do something are looking for a way, those who don't want to do it are looking for excuse" (C)

. The fact you can redesign something from engineering standpoint, does not mean that it will work from business perspective and that your customer will accept that.

[asmi]

.

Be careful with your head.

The fact you can redesign something from engineering standpoint, does not mean that it will work from business perspective and that your customer will accept that.

If the part you use is no longer produced, you will have to do a redesign anyway. So there is little point in delaying inevitable. But there is every incentive to do it ASAP when you still have time.

[langwadt]

.

Be careful with your head.

The fact you can redesign something from engineering standpoint, does not mean that it will work from business perspective and that your customer will accept that.

If the part you use is no longer produced, you will have to do a redesign anyway. So there is little point in delaying inevitable. But there is every incentive to do it ASAP when you still have time.

and if the customer says No! ?

afaiu the part is still in production but, like everything else at the moment, out of stock everywhere

[gnuarm]

Why do you say that when you know literally NOTHING about the business arrangement?

Because I'm an engineer who was trained to never take "no" for an answer on whether something is possible. And because using gray market parts for commercial products is unethical (and can be also illegal in some cases). Finally, because it annoys the crap out of me when someone chooses to waste time bitching and moaning instead of rolling up sleeves and doing what needs to be done, even though knowing full well that it will need to happen at some point anyway.
"Those who wants to do something are looking for a way, those who don't want to do it are looking for excuse" (C)

If you don't like "bitching and moaning", why do you do so much of it? 

If you don't like the conversation, perhaps you should not be in it? 

[gnuarm]

Why do you say that when you know literally NOTHING about the business arrangement?

Because I'm an engineer who was trained to never take "no" for an answer on whether something is possible. And because using gray market parts for commercial products is unethical (and can be also illegal in some cases). Finally, because it annoys the crap out of me when someone chooses to waste time bitching and moaning instead of rolling up sleeves and doing what needs to be done, even though knowing full well that it will need to happen at some point anyway.
"Those who wants to do something are looking for a way, those who don't want to do it are looking for excuse" (C)

. The fact you can redesign something from engineering standpoint, does not mean that it will work from business perspective and that your customer will accept that.

They have refused to let me use an alternate part for one with a VERY long lead time.  But the terms and conditions state I can make substitutions, so if it comes down to being able to build all the boards or not, I will build a number of them and ship them with an indication of the substitution.  They can plug them in and test them or ship them back and we will end the production run at that point.

The part is an analog switch in a 600 ohm audio circuit, with a 50 ohm option.  The ADI part is typ 1.5 ohms and the Maxim part is 2.5 ohms.  With four switches in each differential path I don't think anyone will see the difference.  Certainly not in the 600 ohm application which is all they really use anymore.

[gnuarm]

.

Be careful with your head.

The fact you can redesign something from engineering standpoint, does not mean that it will work from business perspective and that your customer will accept that.

If the part you use is no longer produced, you will have to do a redesign anyway. So there is little point in delaying inevitable. But there is every incentive to do it ASAP when you still have time.

Again, you don't know anything about the circumstances.  There will be no redesign at all.  Take my word for it. 

As it is turning out, the AKM parts are still around to be found, just at a high price.  I found a US company that is not fly by night and they seem to be able to get this one... at $15 above the China prices.  They are buying from China, but have more reliable sources than I do.  So I expect I will let them get the rest for me.

[gnuarm]

.

Be careful with your head.

The fact you can redesign something from engineering standpoint, does not mean that it will work from business perspective and that your customer will accept that.

If the part you use is no longer produced, you will have to do a redesign anyway. So there is little point in delaying inevitable. But there is every incentive to do it ASAP when you still have time.

and if the customer says No! ?

afaiu the part is still in production but, like everything else at the moment, out of stock everywhere

The ADI part is in production, but with a 1 year lead time.  The AKM part was made in a factory that burned down and AKM is not putting that and several other parts back into production.  They will be supplying a part in Sept that will be a superset of several parts.   With the global semiconductor shortage, I'm surprised they can find any spare capacity.

[nudge]

Pioneer DJ started designing AKM parts out of some of their devices, including the top end CDJ-3000: https://www.pioneerdj.com/en-us/news/2021/fire-incident-at-the-asahi-kasei-microdevices-factory/