Desktop Pick-and-place: overview

[alexandru]

Hi Alexandru,

just updated the list (and will likely start a discussion thread on the VisionBot).

Regarding taxes, I just checked:

• Inside the EU, your customers will not be subject to import duties. Depending on how the Swiss classify the machine, it will be exempt from import duties as well (TARIC 8479.5020 industrial robot might make sense, this would be duty free).
• VAT is applicable only to private persons. Anyone running his own company which is subject to VAT can deduct the VAT for the Varioplacer from his tax burden. This is however valid for all machines listed in the table. Switzerland is no different here.

Max

For the 2nd part, as far as I know, you are not 100% right, I have to ask my accountant. A machine that is manufactured let's say in the country X which is part of the EU, all the customers(legal entities/persons, everybody) from the same country X has to pay VAT to that country's government for buying that product. It is just like buying a coffee. When you pay for a coup of coffee, you must pay also the VAT for the coffee and as a final customer you will no longer recover your VAT back. For instance our Romanians national customers, although they had legal entities, due to the government selling policies, all of them had to pay VAT (20%) to the Romanian state (because they were national customers). So I believe that the German legal entities, still have to pay the VAT for buying Varioplacer because it is manufactured in Germany (in case the taxation policies are the same with the Romanian ones).  So in my case all the legal entities based in the European Union (except in Romania) do NOT have to pay VAT or any kind of customs or tax. Why and how this magic happens? Simple because we already paid the VAT, the customs and other taxes for the mechanical parts of the machine. Thank you very much for telling me about Swiss VAT waiver, but to be sure I will double check with the Swiss Chamber of Commerce when I will deliver one there.

For the Chinese machines that are imported directly from China (or any non EU state) everybody is required to pay the VAT and  the Customs Tax. Those two taxes are totally different taxes.

[l0wside]

Hi Alexandru,

might be a good idea to ask your accountant.
To any European customer, you will need to charge VAT. Customers running a business which is not exempt from VAT can however get back this VAT from their tax agency. Whether this is inside Romania, inside Germany or between two member states of the EU does not make a difference.

Buying a Varioplace (which seems to be impossible, but that´s a different story) would mean paying them the full amount plus VAT. Then, if I have a business, I can get back the VAT from the tax agency.
On the other hand, a business has to charge VAT to its customers on anything that they are selling. That´s why it´s called VAT, value added tax: it is only charged on the value that you add to your products.

Under German jurisdiction, there is one exception: small companies can apply to be tax exempt. Then, they are not obliged to charge the VAT to their customers, but they cannot deduct the VAT on what they buy. Your company might run a similar model.


Regarding duties (what you call "import tax"): this applies to anyone, be it a business or a private person. You are correct that the two are different.


Max

[alexandru]

Hi Alexandru,

might be a good idea to ask your accountant.
To any European customer, you will need to charge VAT. Customers running a business which is not exempt from VAT can however get back this VAT from their tax agency. Whether this is inside Romania, inside Germany or between two member states of the EU does not make a difference.

Buying a Varioplace (which seems to be impossible, but that´s a different story) would mean paying them the full amount plus VAT. Then, if I have a business, I can get back the VAT from the tax agency.
On the other hand, a business has to charge VAT to its customers on anything that they are selling. That´s why it´s called VAT, value added tax: it is only charged on the value that you add to your products.

Under German jurisdiction, there is one exception: small companies can apply to be tax exempt. Then, they are not obliged to charge the VAT to their customers, but they cannot deduct the VAT on what they buy. Your company might run a similar model.


Regarding duties (what you call "import tax"): this applies to anyone, be it a business or a private person. You are correct that the two are different.


Max

I will check it tomorrow, but I am very sure that I am quite right. I can tell you one thing. I bought a brand new fine mechanics lathe and vertical mill from Austria(EU) manufacturer Bernardo. The machines were ~ 5000 euro and I did NOT pay any VAT because I have a legal entity and we did not sell the machines afterwards. We kept the machines for our production line (in our stock), and by this we did not pay any VAT for 5000 euro. There are a lot of special laws like: selling the machine outside of the EU I will get my initial VAT back from the state not cash through substitution.

[ar__systems]

I'm pretty sure you are not. I'm sure VAT works like HST in Canada, and as such it is basically irrelevant to any business. It does not matter if EU business buys stuff from Romania or China, at the end of the day they don't pay any VAT on their purchase. (Even though at the time of the purchase VAT is charged).

Duties, however, is a different story.

[mrpackethead]

Any one of you have a company in PANAMA!  then you dont' ahve to pay any tax. Full Stop. Untill you get caught.
 O0

[TJ232]

Any one of you have a company in PANAMA!  then you dont' ahve to pay any tax. Full Stop. Untill you get caught.
 O0

LOL

 

[alexandru]

I'm pretty sure you are not. I'm sure VAT works like HST in Canada, and as such it is basically irrelevant to any business. It does not matter if EU business buys stuff from Romania or China, at the end of the day they don't pay any VAT on their purchase. (Even though at the time of the purchase VAT is charged).

Duties, however, is a different story.

As I told you I am right. I checked with my accountant.  No VAT for any legal entity in the EU that has VAT number especially the  Intra-Community VAT number .

Selling to businesses

If you sell goods to another business and these goods are sent to another EU country, you do not charge VAT - if the customer has a valid VAT number.

Here is the proof http://europa.eu/youreurope/business/vat-customs/cross-border/index_en.htm

[ar__systems]

If you sell goods to another business and these goods are sent to another EU country, you do not charge VAT - if the customer has a valid VAT number.

Here is the proof http://europa.eu/youreurope/business/vat-customs/cross-border/index_en.htm

You need to read the article entirely. You don't charge VAT from customers in other countries because they are in another country. They, however, are still obligated to pay VAT in their country at the time of import.

Better stop this argument and accept that businesses are not affected by VAT. Only consumers are.

[alexandru]

If you sell goods to another business and these goods are sent to another EU country, you do not charge VAT - if the customer has a valid VAT number.

Here is the proof http://europa.eu/youreurope/business/vat-customs/cross-border/index_en.htm

You need to read the article entirely. You don't charge VAT from customers in other countries because they are in another country. They, however, are still obligated to pay VAT in their country at the time of import.

Better stop this argument and accept that businesses are not affected by VAT. Only consumers are.

I was talking only about EU countries, and not about non EU countries.  I believe that Canada(where you are based in) is not in the EU. I was talking  only about EU countries where the legal entities don't have to pay any VAT for the  PnP machines manufactured in the EU like VarioPlacer and VisionBot. As in my above example, I still didn't pay any taxes for my lathe and vertical mill even after 8 months of acquisition.  I think many ppl think twice when they are paying 20% more of a 10,000 PnP machine + customs + shipping. There is NO import for legal entities in the European Union because Germany and Romania are in the EU for a long time.

[ar__systems]

I think you still don't understand how VAT works. For a EU business it does not matter where they buy their machine. EU or China. At the end of the day they do not pay VAT.

[alexandru]

I think you still don't understand how VAT works. For a EU business it does not matter where they buy their machine. EU or China. At the end of the day they do not pay VAT.

That is a very wrong assumption. The EU VAT system is  very complex and hard to get it right, this is why the companies here are required get an accountant.

Definitely it matters.. the difference is at least 25% more for all the Chinese machines.

Anyone from EU who is buying a PnP machine legally  from  China,  is required to pay VAT and Customs. Buying a machine manufactured in the EU as a EU legal entity with VAT number doesn't have to pay any tax to the state, not a penny. For instance when I buy steppers motors on my company legally from China, I have to pay VAT 20% + 4.4% customs + other DHL taxes for the importing customs procedure. Last year, when the VAT in my country was 24%, more than 30% of my revenues where going to the state for taxes, VAT for buying goods from China. This is the reason why I moved to buy more and more goods from EU. Buying goods as a legal entity from EU is VAT free in case you have VAT number and buying from China you must pay about 24.4% (these numbers are in my country). There is no customs and import procedure between EU members.

[ar__systems]

For instance when I buy steppers motors on my company legally from China, I have to pay VAT 20% + 4.4% customs + other DHL taxes for the importing customs procedure.

You need to fire your accountant, all I can say 

[mrpackethead]

For instance when I buy steppers motors on my company legally from China, I have to pay VAT 20% + 4.4% customs + other DHL taxes for the importing customs procedure.

You need to fire your accountant, all I can say 

Some panamanian accountants looking for jobs so probalby can get one cheap.

[alexandru]

For instance when I buy steppers motors on my company legally from China, I have to pay VAT 20% + 4.4% customs + other DHL taxes for the importing customs procedure.

You need to fire your accountant, all I can say 

Or maybe you should get a book of how to get these things done legally and avoid doing tax evasion. If you don't pay VAT 20%, 4.4% customs for Chinese goods or just talk to the Chinese to make the price look smaller on the invoice that means you do tax evasion here in Romania, EU. One more time, I want to tell you these rules apply for the EU, Ro and maybe they are not exactly the same in Canada where you are from. The EU customs policies were made in this way: making the Chinese goods very expensive by putting them a lot of taxes and reducing the taxes for the organic product sold B2B in the EU to increase the productivity here.

[l0wside]

Assuming that mrpackethead´s proposal was simply a joke, no-one is propagating tax evasion here. It simply would not make any sense for a physical product which you want to write off.

Just checked the German customs site http://www.zoll.de/DE/Fachthemen/Steuern/Einfuhrumsatzsteuer/Vorsteuerabzug/vorsteuerabzug_node.html. It is quite simple: the VAT which you pay on import is refunded to any business which itself is subject to VAT. If you have such a business (which I assume, as you seem to have a VAT number) and paid VAT on an imported machine, either Romanian law is crude (and, most likely, against EU regulations), or your accountant should look into this issue again.

Max

[alexandru]

Assuming that mrpackethead´s proposal was simply a joke, no-one is propagating tax evasion here. It simply would not make any sense for a physical product which you want to write off.

Just checked the German customs site http://www.zoll.de/DE/Fachthemen/Steuern/Einfuhrumsatzsteuer/Vorsteuerabzug/vorsteuerabzug_node.html. It is quite simple: the VAT which you pay on import is refunded to any business which itself is subject to VAT. If you have such a business (which I assume, as you seem to have a VAT number) and paid VAT on an imported machine, either Romanian law is crude (and, most likely, against EU regulations), or your accountant should look into this issue again.

Max

I didn't tell that I don't recover any part of the VAT  from the imported Chinese products after I sell the products afterwards to a customer. I only told you two things
1) For any machine imported from China, all EU legal entities still have to pay with real money the VAT tax and they can recover at some point the VAT as Max pointed.
2) For any machine that is manufactured in the EU, all the EU legal entities don't have to take any penny from their pockets to pay the VAT or Customs tax because these taxes are not applicable to them.

[mrpackethead]

ok, enough tax, its taxing this topic, and its way off topic! go and start a new thread.

[l0wside]

Agreed.

[ttsthermaltech]

#1. I love how the Canadians are always wanting to talk Taxes (and gas prices...). I am Canadian, so I am exempt from offending any other Canadians...

#2 Back to the topic at hand...

Has anyone around here actually bought at Qihe TVM920. I am really impressed with the machine so far. Great specs, 56 Yamaha feeder capacity. Feeders are pretty cheap, looks like great build quality, closed loop steppers, and four heads with Juki Nozzles.

I just would love it if ONE person could vouch for the machine / and or Qihe as a company....

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Rob.

[ttsthermaltech]

Just some detailed pics of TVM920 and the GUI

Rob.

[ar__systems]

You bought it?

[ar__systems]

I think I'm going to design yet another desktop PNP This is a fun project to work on.

[thommo]

Hi Rob,
I couldn't find a link for this TVM920 machine on the site in the Google list.
It appears to be exactly the same bed/table design as the Charmhigh machine.
OK - this is the link
http://www.qihekj.com/en/product/html/?45.html

Did you buy this machine - are these your photos?
Does anyone have a manual for it?

Have you actually spoken with the company directly Rob?

BTW it looks great with the black anodised bed!
I wonder why they have limited the feeder size to 14mm max?

Just some detailed pics of TVM920 and the GUI

Rob.

[ar__systems]

which of the Charmhigh you refer to? theirs is not even similar to TVM920.

http://www.charmhigh-tech.com/sell-new_chmt530p_pneumatic_feeder_smd_pick_and_place_machine_vision_system_mark2-3728908.html

[ttsthermaltech]

No, haven't bought it yet. Really tempted....

The Charmhigh  CHMT530P is similar / almost identical in terms of PNP mechanics. Controller on the Charmhigh is embedded Linux. The Qihe is Windows based.

The reason I am tempted towards the Qihe is the 56 feeder slots. An extra 26 slots is considerable. Especially when you start added 12mm / 16mm / 24mm feeders which take more than a slot.

I personally don't think that either company is building for the other. They look to be mechanical duplicates of one another with vastly different controls.

There are some videos online of the Qihe TVM920 at: http://www.soku.com/search_video/q_tvm920?f=1&kb=040200000000000__tvm920&_rp=1459875882621ACp6d3&_rp=1459875882621ACp6d3

I was just hoping the some of the people that own Qihe TCM802A/B could chime in and provide some feedback with regards to support, responsiveness to software bugs, etc. It is difficult to get much information. Qihe won't provide a demo of their software for me to test, so I am always leary to jump in. I got burned once with bad PNP software....

I am trying to get copies of the manuals / instruction videos from them. Still waiting....

Anyhow, I hope someone has some experience. I am going to contact Charmhigh directly as I heard rumor that they will be producing a larger feeder version.

Rob.