Author Topic: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?  (Read 12076 times)

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Online Ice-Tea

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Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« on: September 12, 2016, 12:30:24 pm »
<iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/171571348" width="640" height="360" frameborder="0" webkitallowfullscreen mozallowfullscreen allowfullscreen></iframe>

Pretty much my dreammachine. Not a chip-shooting dreadnaught, but a compact machine with room for a *lot* of feeders and (drumroll) does dispensing, ie no paste screenprinter required. Seems like the perfect match for a small shop, protos, small series...

So, any experiences? Anyone ever got one quoted (with the paste dispensing option)? What about feeders? Anyone got feeder prices for Essemtec? General Essemtec feedback? Anyone want to give me one for a kidney?
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Offline harry4516

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2016, 10:03:26 pm »
a very high quality machine. Would buy it immediately if I have the money.
As I know its in the 50k+ price range.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2016, 10:21:49 pm »
Seems like the perfect match for a small shop, protos, small series...
Except likely they cannot afford it.
Quote
Anyone want to give me one for a kidney?
Don't think your kidney is worth enough  :)
a very high quality machine. Would buy it immediately if I have the money.
As I know its in the 50k+ price range.
And thinking it being on the bottom of that 50k+ range, would be quiet optimistic.
 

Offline harry4516

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2016, 10:30:46 pm »
And thinking it being on the bottom of that 50k+ range, would be quiet optimistic.

you are right, so lets continue with the Chinese toys.
For 50k+ I would buy a BMW, cannot place parts but makes lot more fun :-)
 

Online blueskull

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2016, 10:49:29 pm »
I really wish some Swiss guys can build some Swiss designed and made DESKTOP PnP machines fitting $10k range. That would be a very sweet spot for academic and commercial R&D facilities.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2016, 10:55:42 pm »
Found a posting saying 55K Euros excluding feeders.
Considering what's coming from China now, it's looking quite expensive.
If Neoden were to get their act together they could probably do an equivalent for 10-15K with feeders.
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Offline Smallsmt

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2016, 07:01:35 am »
Very nice machine!

The price is 46000€ plus VAT and 1200€ for 8mm feeder.

But I think this is ok.
 

Online Ice-Tea

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2016, 07:28:36 am »
Hey!

Thanks for the feedback ;)Is that number with the solder paste dispensers?

And, eh, 1200 for a single feeder? Oh, crap...
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2016, 07:38:41 am »
Hey!

Thanks for the feedback ;)Is that number with the solder paste dispensers?

And, eh, 1200 for a single feeder? Oh, crap...
With pick/place from big-name players, it's not uncommon for a set of feeders to cost as much as the base machine.
Making a reliable feeder is surprisingly hard.
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Online Ice-Tea

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2016, 08:44:53 am »
I know, but 1.2k€? I mean, there's room for 120 feeders, so, uhmm... *counts on his fingers* Good Lord!

Edit: 1.2k, not 2.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 09:15:21 am by Ice-Tea »
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Online wraper

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2016, 08:55:01 am »
I know, but 2k€? I mean, there's room for 120 feeders, so, uhmm... *counts on his fingers* Good Lord!
That's why I said EUR 50k is optimistic. I thought, it could cost 50k without feeders, but... when you stuff it with accessories it needs, it will be well over 100k.
 

Offline sparkswillfly

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2016, 09:23:32 am »
I know, but 1.2k€? I mean, there's room for 120 feeders, so, uhmm... *counts on his fingers* Good Lord!

Edit: 1.2k, not 2.

From the video it looks like feeder cartridges are 10 units wide, for example 10 8mm or 4 8mm and 4 12mm, so maybe not so bad?
 

Online Ice-Tea

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2016, 09:48:18 am »
If it's 1k2 for effectively 10 feeders, then that's pretty decent..
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2016, 02:27:06 pm »
If it's 1k2 for effectively 10 feeders, then that's pretty decent..
That's cheaper than Neoden..!
Hopefully the wider feeders would come as a mixed bank, so you didn't need to buy a whole feeder for 12,16 and bigger tape

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Online Ice-Tea

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2016, 05:50:35 am »
Whar continues to amaze me is how little price info about "big brand" SMT equipment there is out in the open, not just about Essemtec, but everything. Bit of a bummer.
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Offline technotronix

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2016, 02:38:43 pm »
Seems like the perfect match for a small shop, protos, small series...
Except likely they cannot afford it.
Quote
Anyone want to give me one for a kidney?
Don't think your kidney is worth enough  :)
a very high quality machine. Would buy it immediately if I have the money.
As I know its in the 50k+ price range.
And thinking it being on the bottom of that 50k+ range, would be quiet optimistic.


Did you tried any china manufacture. You will get in your budget i think.
 

Offline mairo

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2017, 11:13:37 am »
If it's 1k2 for effectively 10 feeders, then that's pretty decent..
That's cheaper than Neoden..!
Hopefully the wider feeders would come as a mixed bank, so you didn't need to buy a whole feeder for 12,16 and bigger tape

http://www.essemtec.com/products.asp?ArtNr=hyQ-Feeder

At the bottom of the above link is a video showing single feeders as well, so I believe the 1.2k price could be for just one of these feeders. Mechatronika sells its bank feeders (10 or so per bank) for the M10V/MM600 machines for ~2k, so I doubt the Essemtec guys will be cheaper..
 

Offline LouisS2p

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2017, 12:58:09 pm »
I think this machine can fit what they call HyQ double tape feeder. I got a quote for 25 of these feeders in 8mm and it was 1.7k€ each.

Regarding the price this machine won't be under 100k with dispensing option and feeders. There is also the jetting head option which is much more stable and fast for solder paste.

All in all this is a high quality machine for people who can't afford to stop the production for reliability issues. In the component assembly business it is considered as a "slow" pick and place and aims the manufacturers with a high mix of products. The programming is very fast and intuitive.
 

Online Ice-Tea

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2017, 08:26:54 am »
Each? 😢 WoW. Thanks for the info, though..
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2018, 11:31:21 pm »
If you look at 0.42 you see at left and right inside absolute encoders, probably optical from Renishaw or the sorts. Linear rails are probably from Rexroth so only those guides and optical encoders will cost >3k€ . Add the other axis, motors, etc etc and you look at 20k€+ on hardware costs.
This is necessary for the 50um accuracy for the 0201 components and that kind of quality is what sets it apart from the cheaper machines.
 

Offline SMTech

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2018, 08:04:36 am »
The Fox is the baby brother to the Paraquda (240feeders) that I have and replaces the older FLX, I can tell you the hardware on some of the Paraquda.
Encoders - Are marked RSF
Drive Motors - BOB Gmbh
Drive Control Indel
All the pneumatics in the head are from SMC who have a range of bits specially for Surface mount machines.
The "workstation class" control computer, is not, mine shipped with the motherboard manual and its a decent consumer class model from ASUS built into a case by Moxa - who do make industrial controllers.
All the various modules that make up the control system are linked back to the control PC with gigabit ethernet and maybe a touch of legacy serial connectivity.
Software is heavily touchscreen optimized with all the features you might reasonably want in a machine like this, some of the features to improve workflow are optional extras and it uses dongles to enforce that.

You should still be able to spec a machine to come with CLM feeders which is what the FLX used to use, these are 10*8 lanes wide (in 8mm) and cost around €6500 the price comes down with larger tape sizes as you get fewer lanes. They do come in some banks that are a mix of sizes 3x24+16 & 4x8+4x12 for example.
An 8mm HyQ would be a dual lane feeder, the HyQ feeders are much faster, advancing something like 3 times faster than the CLM ones. In fact the Paraquda4 is slowed down by having them fitted by somewhere around 20-30%.

Dispensing options are varied, but forget about it, it seems like a brilliant idea but printing with a dispense head requires very specific paste formulations to work reliably and it will require continuous cleaning and maintenance. To get decent results you'd want the most expensive option which is €15k+ and that is an awful lot of stencils and its a whole extra step the machine has to do first, one dot at a time. Dispensing is brilliant for glues or extra paste if you have  designs that need that kind of thing.

Whatever you might like to think the Chinese machines are nowhere near getting close to even these machines, we've had ours 6 years now, and apart from 2 odd hiccups right at the beginning, one of which was related to power, completely problem free.

Oh when buying a machine like this, supply it with clean dry air, not straight from some dirty paintshop compressor or you will end up with a very expensive bill to repair the head.
 
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2018, 08:38:35 am »

Whatever you might like to think the Chinese machines are nowhere near getting close to even these machines, we've had ours 6 years now, and apart from 2 odd hiccups right at the beginning, one of which was related to power, completely problem free.
I don't think anyone would claim they are. You always get what you pay for. These machines are designed to run all day long for years, and so only of interest to subcontractors and mid-size companies with the volume to keep it fed.
The interesting thing is that before the Chinese machine, there was simply no option at all below around $50K, but now teh Chinese machines make it viable for much lower volume users to do production in-house.
Unfortunately so few people have first-hand experience of running a pick/place, there are a lot of unrealistic expectations.
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2018, 12:35:24 pm »
I also never saw a chinese cheapo P&P place 0201 or smaller accurately, now I know why.
You need much higher accuracy in terms of place coordinates for placing, they don't put those expensive Renishaw absolute encoders on the axis just for fun, it gives the absolute coordinates in 10um or better resolution thus compensating all backlash and other time/movement related errors also making it unnecessary to home on a regular basis.
Their motors probably have the named 50um step resolution making that the weakest link.

All I am saying it sounds very expensive but looking at all the used parts and not to forget the good software what that costs to create (chinese software is usually garbage) it actually is quite decently priced at the named 50k€ although I have doubts about that price, it is probably much higher.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2018, 12:46:31 pm »
Feeders are also somewhat critical with 0201
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2018, 11:01:54 pm »
They use linear motors on X (2) and Y axis  8)
Now the Fox2 is released it has a jetprinter for paste and glue.
Looks awesome.
https://youtu.be/HH1e7qir3jk
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2018, 04:58:13 am »
The Essmetechs i've seen are all impressive.  I'd be cautious about the paste dispense for really fine parts, and i'm not sure if it solves any good business problem.
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Online Ice-Tea

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2018, 11:29:46 am »
That's just porn.
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Offline SMTech

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2018, 08:36:02 am »
I hadn't been paying close attention to how much Essemtec had been tweaking on their machines as we are happy with what we have and would probably be choosing a different kind of machine next time. However the changes are significant, up until the release of the Paraquda sometime around 2010 Essemtecs top end machine was the FLX and below that were Pantera (I think based on the FLX chassis) and then the CLM machines that resembled what they started with (extruded aluminum frame) and they had dabbled at least once with rebadging someone elses machine (Versatec C5). Those who had mid-generation FLX machines that were rated down to 0201 said they did do a little tweaking when placing 0402.
At the same time as the Paraquda they had the Cobra, a machine that vanished quite quickly that was basically a bigger Paraquda with 8 nozzles and carbon fibre employed to counteract the increased weight of the head. I'm merely speculating but think this machine vanished because it was expensive while also lacking features you would find in machines at that price point e.g placement force measurement & outright speed.

Since then they have retired all the lower end machines (I think it goes like this), made the Fox (essentially an improved FLX with the Paraquda software), made a Paraquda gen2 and then retired that, made the Fox gen2 which introduces a 4 nozzle head and linear drives and introduced the Puma which seems to be slightly bigger than a Paraquda was, again adding linear drives. The resulting machines have to be more expensive than their non-linear motor counterparts, however the heads and nozzles look like they are perhaps the same basic design. The IPC speeds in the datasheets are around 50% higher than the old machines, because of that it may even be the case they only offer this generation with HyQ feeders, this is fair enough there are huge compromises to be made when using feeders in banks anyway.

I think it would be fair to say that outside of the mergers that have gone on elsewhere nobody else has made such radical changes to their P&P lineup, it is clearly motivated by something (new machines encroaching on their lower end offerings, profit margin on something built in Switzerland???). The only similarly big change I am aware of is Europlacers new machine the Atom which introduces and a new head/gantry to their platform that previously focused solely on flexibility adding a significant increase in throughput.  Certainly however it makes it very clear these machines are not rivals for TWS, DDM or Autotronik, instead these are rivals for volume production machines with a focus on unconventional setups (they still offer standalone) that those machines are bad at. However I would maintain that for most typical designs beyond ~6kcph is completely pointless unless running a fully automated line, the human will end up rate limiting it.
 
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Offline Smallsmt

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2018, 03:44:15 pm »
I saw the FOX on exhibition a really cool machine.
The userinterface looks modern and machine has touch screen control.
As i know they use linear motors and they are really fast.
The feeder system uses feeder groups to place more feeder on a small space.
Machine foot print is small for the high feeder count.
I think it can get moved to a normal office through the doors.
But the price is about 130000 euro in working condition including feeder.
Too high for my usage.

It is a very good solution if the machine is used for production and on small space.

 

Offline SMTech

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2018, 08:05:05 am »
Don't get too impressed by the attractive outer shell and software UI. The interface is a bog standard interface made bigger to be finger pokey friendly with a popup keyboard. They've done a nicer job than some and the whole package certainly looks the part if you have guests but its not perfect.
 
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Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2018, 08:48:40 am »
I have a line that has an old school DOs inteface.  Its ugly.   but the machine runs relaibly and does lots of work. Do i need a touch screen?  Seriously a PNP line is not about what it looks like.
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2018, 09:18:26 am »
Mid-high end P&Ps are designed for operation by trained, semi-skilled operators who probably have little knowledge of what they are assembling. This poses different UI requirements to a skilled in-house user assembling their own PCBs.

In terms of flashy UIs, from my system I would say that having a graphical representation of the board can be very useful, making it easy to identify where any problem/missed parts are, omitting parts of a panel etc.
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2018, 09:52:49 am »
A good UI can prevent operator mistakes.
It will pay itself back in no-time.
 

Offline SMTech

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2018, 11:01:26 am »
Pretty much anything vaguely recent should at least be intuitive enough to prevent mistakes, some machines will have been built with a mindset that an engineer level person creates the "Recipe" (as Essemtec like to call it) for a product, creates all the components and packages, orientation in tape etc. And a low level operator only has the power to stop, start and load. At that point the machine UI might not offer many opportunities for error to the operator. The steps and tools for the engineer level stuff might well be a separate  package on another machine, you can even have dedicated stations for checking the vision parameters for some machines..

ePlace  gives a graphical representation of the board as configured, that lets you visually check things like orientation using a single piece of software for all tasks

Errors a programmer/engineer might make:

Component orientation, not every manufacturer puts things in the same tape for the same package or the same way round, nor do they make it easy to find out. Visual representation of the component on the board and the tape helps with verifying setup. In Essemtecs case you even get a representation of the feeders on-screen including components in the tapes, multiple pitch and tape types can be stored against a single part number. This means for instance you can have two suppliers of a 2512 resistor one using 4mm and the other 8mm pitch (happens) and the machine will ask prompt you as to which it is when you load the part. It also means for new jobs and new parts you can easily verify what you are loading matches what the machine expects to see. Different CAD packages stick to IPC rules about where 0 degrees to varying levels, Essemtecs software builds up rules to automatically correct these, as a contractor I build up multiple rule files accordingly. 

Bunkum co-ordinates: I don't know how but I have been sent XY files where some components are in completely the wrong place, easy to spot if it is represented on screen.

Incorrect size data: I'll give it its due, the component design section of ePlace really isn't bad and it can have a pretty decent stab at making models for you based on what the camera can see (sometimes comical). Graphical aids here are invaluable. However unless they have snuck placement force measurement into the Fox2, defining component height correctly is critical to both accurate placement and nozzle life. By contrast machines with placement force feedback can compensate for incorrect height and/or board warpage on the fly.

Errors that an operator might make:

Putting in the PCB rotated 180 - this is very easy to do, a visual aid in the GUI can help here but the foolproof solution is not to place fiducials symmetrically, everyone makes stupid mistakes sometimes.
Loading the wrong component in a feeder, this is very easy to do if you don't have checks in place. Essemtec Feeders are "Intelligent" all this really means is each one has an electronic ID and the machine keeps a record of what is loaded on it. However compared to a dumb feeder that has many advantages, meaning you can move it and the machine knows you have done so, it also knows things like the lane type, pitch & pick height. I don't think UI makes much difference here, if you are changing loaded parts a lot the best tools you could add would be a component verification unit & barcoding so you scan parts on and off, both of these are offered by Essemtec but cost extra (a surprisingly rude amount in the case of barcodes).
Loading the wrong file, I don't see the UI helps much here, however unless what you have loaded is a variant it probably shouldn't build. Mitigating tools here would be a job(works order) tracking system and some barcoding, if your building in any volume at all you should at least have works orders and paper tracking. If you don't cross your fingers none of your customers are the type who might audit you.

Dunno that an operator can do much else wrong, mostly they just need a smidge of common sense to respond to errors & prompts sensibly.

 

Online Reckless

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2018, 01:04:21 pm »
Is it possible to run this all night with no operator present?  How long does it take for solder paste to run out?

By having graphical representation of the pcb does it act do any AOI/SPI functions?
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2018, 08:12:06 pm »
Fully autonoumous PCB Production?     Even on the very high end machines, they have stoppages that require human intervention from time to time.    One operator can look after several lines, but totally human free.. I doubt it.

Fully automated solder pasting happens as well, so this means that the solder paste is stenciled as its required, rather than stackign up boards.
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2018, 03:01:50 am »
I sure like the compact design of this one. The pricing seems reasonable for what it does.

For me, the big questions are how long does it take to do a changeover. How easy are the feeders to unload/load. Are there any alignment tweaks needed after loading a new part? How easy is it to add new parts to the library and verify them? How gracefull does it handle mis-picks? Does it auto correct pickup locations based on the previous pickup?

For me, placement speed is not interesting. Ease of use, reliability,  and setup speed is king in my world.
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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2018, 04:12:31 am »
I sure like the compact design of this one. The pricing seems reasonable for what it does.

For me, the big questions are how long does it take to do a changeover. How easy are the feeders to unload/load. Are there any alignment tweaks needed after loading a new part? How easy is it to add new parts to the library and verify them? How gracefull does it handle mis-picks? Does it auto correct pickup locations based on the previous pickup?

For me, placement speed is not interesting. Ease of use, reliability,  and setup speed is king in my world.


From what I saw at the show:
Changeovers very fast
Feeders easy to load/unload
New parts easy to add
Mispicks was a question mark as we saw a number of chips scattered around head due to a wrong nozzle being used
It does auto-correct, it has some AI

Ease of use, setup, reliability are good but im still torn.  The machine was not stable and seemed to move at 100% speed on the show carpet.  Personally I am used to super planted and overbuilt universal genesis machines.  I moved away from Juki as I didn't like the instable nature of their machines at full speed.  I don't like machines rocking but universal makes their machines soo big that the arm has to travel more distance and have to run faster to compensate.  The fox being soo small takes very little production space which is something I do love.
 

Offline SMTech

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2018, 11:25:07 am »
You can get close to an autonomous factory (machines requesting new reels form storage, robots bringing them to the load station, SPI& AOI rejecting pcbs to a divert magazine etc) but there is no robot to load a feeder with a new reel, or change a feeder or one with enough common sense to sort out those little issues that will crop up from time to time. While these factories exist in the promo vids for SMART factories I don't know who has them, clearly not china, they have heavily staffed SMT lines if YouTube tours are anything to go by. Maybe high end manufacturers like Miele ? This isn't something you'd do with a FOX tho', you'd just buy something faster.

As to the Fox, while admittedly the Paraquda I have is now an older platform it is where the ePlace software comes from and while I'm not on the very latest version, it won't be all that different. It is quite nice to use, there are a few moderately annoying glitches that crop up when moving between screens or selections but nothing that stop the machine carrying out its function unlike some of this which seems unacceptable to me https://smtnet.com/Forums/index.cfm?fuseaction=view_thread&CFApp=1&Thread_ID=21056&mc=6 . Setting up new jobs in indeed super easy, and gets easier & quicker the more you do. As of yet I don't think you can directly import ODB++ which could be a nice feature, nor can you display the assembly layer (or any gerber) as part of the image, something else that could potentially be useful.

I don't know what they would mean by auto-correct, that sounds like what every machine does where it alters the pick position based on the alignment which is nothing special for a machine with optical alignment.
It is compact yes but that does come at a cost, which may or may not affect you, it only handles smaller boards and if you add tray changers to Essemtec machines, the max PCB size shrinks again.
Changeovers: I don't think you could really say these were any quicker on Essemtec than any other modeern machine with intelligent feeders that are easy to load. If you want the fastest that accolade probably goes to Mycronic with their Agilis system - a key selling point of their platform, which is anything but compact. Equally look at Samsung feeders where you can stick the next tape in the feeder while the old one is still in use when working in high volume and it will switch over on its own. However truly rapid changeover is achieved by having enough feeders to load the next lot, on trolleys, while the current job is running or just to have so many permanently on the machine that most of it is already loaded (Europlacer is the king here).
Misspicks: It seems very odd to me that there would be a visible number of picking issues on a demo line at a show, optical alignment does allow you to set all sorts of parameters to accept or reject a part at which point to either return it to its tray or drop it in the reject bin. If your parameters are out or you have the wrong nozzle, sure this can raise the number of them but there's not much excuse on a demo line that was probably placing generic parts on a demo board they run all the time or drawing a twee logo with parts. You probably saw it with HyQ feeders while I run  CLM so I can't comment on those but if they still try and sell the old style deep pocket feeder (which is the only option for anything over 6mm height with CLM feders), they are to be avoided at all costs, utter garbage.
In my experience my highest pick failure is a total failure to pick at all, this typically crops up on one specific lane for no apparent reason and will randomly go awayon another job or a software restart, its not common but enough that its an issue I recognise.

In a Lab with no conveyor it has an unrivalled max feeder count in a tiny footprint, and this is where perhaps the dispensing options make sense (and they are better than anyone elses) however dispensing paste makes no economic sense to most people. As soon as you move to the production environment it has some pretty strong competition on price from machines that will place faster and have fewer restrictions and more features. I like our Paraquda, it is excellent at what it does, the way we use it, but if we suddenly needed a line that handled higher volume, automated end to end, I personally wouldn't even look at Essemtec as I know I can get more for less (and cheaper to run) elsewhere.
 
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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2018, 01:57:49 pm »

In a Lab with no conveyor it has an unrivalled max feeder count in a tiny footprint, and this is where perhaps the dispensing options make sense (and they are better than anyone elses) however dispensing paste makes no economic sense to most people. As soon as you move to the production environment it has some pretty strong competition on price from machines that will place faster and have fewer restrictions and more features. I like our Paraquda, it is excellent at what it does, the way we use it, but if we suddenly needed a line that handled higher volume, automated end to end, I personally wouldn't even look at Essemtec as I know I can get more for less (and cheaper to run) elsewhere.

This is my dilemma.  I want to run this in production level, I can keep refilling feeders (most of my components have 10k/reel).  I can give up speed IF this machine can be left unattended at night.  The misfeeds have me irked as I dont want issues running long jobs. 

It is a beautiful machine but it reminds me of a high output inline 4 cylinder engine.  Being American I like running huge horsepower v8s.  I am leaning towards a universal with lightning head but really liked the size of this machine.
 

Offline SMTech

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2018, 03:40:36 pm »
I wouldn't want to leave any machine fully unattended and this is particularly true if I NEEDED the output it was working on, could maybe be OK with leave it running something complicated and if production stops for whatever reason "oh well never mind". However if you look at the reported speed for the Fox and you think you already need more than that in a normal working day, I think that means it is the wrong machine. Important also to remember those reported speeds (true for everyone) are hypothetical rubbish. With CLM Feeders I have no PCB that achieves over 6200cph, mostly more like 5300 on the Paraquda, and in theory could gain 20-30% if I had HyQ Feeders. If I were to take the speeds from the brochure the Paraquda has a theoretical speed of 15kcph & an IPC Speed of 10.2K. If you have a fairly typical design you can send it to them and they will give an estimation as to the placement rate you might achieve on that board.

Once you are running an inline machine, the Fox loses some if its advantages, becoming a 120 slot placement machine much like many others, its very narrow front to back, hence the modest max PCB dimensions, but line length can only shrink so much and still fit that many feeders on.

If you look around for consumables like Nozzles you will notice that many of the bigger brands have multiple sources for equivalent parts, there are none for Essemtec and one could certainly consider some of these things expensive/over priced. Get consumables pricing form every option you consider and compare them.

Equally put some proper numbers together for the amount of work you need the machine to do, what feeders you need and how big your panels will be. Get quotes from everyone, make sure they know its a real contest (if you are seriously considering new) and see what happens to those new machine prices.

If you like the Universal lightning head how about the C12pp head on an E series from SiPlace? http://www.e-by-siplace.com/en/e-performance/placement-heads/cp12pp

 
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2018, 04:08:30 pm »
I can give up speed IF this machine can be left unattended at night.  The misfeeds have me irked as I dont want issues running long jobs. 

I have been looking at new machines for the past few months and I don't believe any of them are at a level that I would count on lights out performance. Perhaps, I would walk away and hope for the best.

In my CNC production experience, I tried full lights-out machining. This is a process that is considerably less fiddly than PCB assembly. It was extremely difficult to manage all the faults well enough to call it reliable. In the end, I called it bonus time - if we were lucky, we would have parts in the morning. If we were unlucky, we would have an alarm, broken tools, or scrapped parts.

I would be pretty happy if I had a P&P line that I could load up and run for a full 8 hour day with only 45 minutes of labor. That person could be working on dozens of other tasks. That would be excellent from a business perspective without the additional challenges related to true lights-out assembly.
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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #42 on: October 20, 2018, 08:05:49 pm »
I would be pretty happy if I had a P&P line that I could load up and run for a full 8 hour day with only 45 minutes of labor. That person could be working on dozens of other tasks. That would be excellent from a business perspective without the additional challenges related to true lights-out assembly.

Me too, this is what I am looking for.  I also like saving on floor space but can give that up for less headaches.  I also tried lights out with my Instructables CNC machines (Xcarve and Carvey) and it works with the Carvey as its self contained and very repeatable.  The X-Carve gave us two fires in the beginning due to some component failure on z-axis so I don't feel comfortable running that after hours. 
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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #43 on: October 20, 2018, 11:26:23 pm »
I wouldn't want to leave any machine fully unattended and this is particularly true if I NEEDED the output it was working on, could maybe be OK with leave it running something complicated and if production stops for whatever reason "oh well never mind". However if you look at the reported speed for the Fox and you think you already need more than that in a normal working day, I think that means it is the wrong machine. Important also to remember those reported speeds (true for everyone) are hypothetical rubbish. With CLM Feeders I have no PCB that achieves over 6200cph, mostly more like 5300 on the Paraquda, and in theory could gain 20-30% if I had HyQ Feeders. If I were to take the speeds from the brochure the Paraquda has a theoretical speed of 15kcph & an IPC Speed of 10.2K. If you have a fairly typical design you can send it to them and they will give an estimation as to the placement rate you might achieve on that board.

Once you are running an inline machine, the Fox loses some if its advantages, becoming a 120 slot placement machine much like many others, its very narrow front to back, hence the modest max PCB dimensions, but line length can only shrink so much and still fit that many feeders on.

If you look around for consumables like Nozzles you will notice that many of the bigger brands have multiple sources for equivalent parts, there are none for Essemtec and one could certainly consider some of these things expensive/over priced. Get consumables pricing form every option you consider and compare them.

Equally put some proper numbers together for the amount of work you need the machine to do, what feeders you need and how big your panels will be. Get quotes from everyone, make sure they know its a real contest (if you are seriously considering new) and see what happens to those new machine prices.

If you like the Universal lightning head how about the C12pp head on an E series from SiPlace? http://www.e-by-siplace.com/en/e-performance/placement-heads/cp12pp

Thank you soo much for responding and giving your experience with Essemtec machines.  Your CPH numbers are much lower than I was expecting.  My pcbs are small and I don't have many feeders.  My biggest concern is a no headache machine.  I like the form factor of the Essemtec but speed is going to be the issue.  It is soo tiny that it will fit 2-3 units where I could fit one Universal.  I don't know anything about siplace machines but am very keen on learning about other manufacturers that have excellent reputations for being die hard.  It is very confusing picking out a pick and place machine esp USED.  I don't like losing money when taking it off the 'new dealer' lot.  I was half considering the fox new but everything else I prefer used but want something that I can beat to the ground and not have to worry about.  I love industrial machines that pay for themselves esp with no headaches.  One of the reasons I was drawn to universal was to the overbuilt nature of their machines.  Their beams are ridicously thick and heavy but the machine has to move a greater distance.  I compare it to a monster V8 as opposed to a japanese V6.  I may end up buying fuji someday as it seems to be the company everyone respects the most.  I will have to wait it out until I find a deal.  My SMT Tech is a repair man from Panasonic's SMT department. 
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2018, 01:22:27 am »
As a general rule,  "real world" placement rates seem to be anywhere beween 1/3 and 1/4 of the stated 'maximum' placement rates.   It takes time for boards to load.   For multihead machines they will have them all picking at the same time, and placing at optimal positions for the test, and it will be set up for the shortest parths etc. etc.    Its just a wee bit artifical.   I've seen this across many many differnet machine lines, from different manufacturers.

Runnign a line fully human free, sound great, but i suspect that it woudl cost so much it, would not be worth it.
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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2018, 02:38:54 am »
Runnign a line fully human free, sound great, but i suspect that it woudl cost so much it, would not be worth it.

That is basically what I learned in CNC (an easier process to go lights-out).
It only made sense in if the volume was very high and therefore able to absorb the cost of making it happen. P&P is considerably harder and the costs of achieving a true lights out process would be pretty big.

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #46 on: October 21, 2018, 05:07:15 am »
As a general rule,  "real world" placement rates seem to be anywhere beween 1/3 and 1/4 of the stated 'maximum' placement rates.   It takes time for boards to load.   For multihead machines they will have them all picking at the same time, and placing at optimal positions for the test, and it will be set up for the shortest parths etc. etc.    Its just a wee bit artifical.   I've seen this across many many differnet machine lines, from different manufacturers.

Runnign a line fully human free, sound great, but i suspect that it woudl cost so much it, would not be worth it.


Do you feel that way about universal instruments?  I just got a gsm flexjet (10k cph) and a dual beam inline7 machine (27k) and they seem very fast.  I am still setting them up but my entire circuit is all tiny chips.
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #47 on: October 21, 2018, 05:20:33 am »
in practical terms;

you would need automated solder paste stenciling or dispencing.   The Fox has solder jet printing, but once you start getting down in size its problematic.   I am hopeful that one day solder paste printing will actually get their and be affordable.. ( MY-500 printer is pretty good, its just $500,000).  An automatic stencil printer is going to hit you up for $50-$60k.

you'll need a board loader, and a board unloader..      A hole nights operation, probalby would deplete some reels, if not the first night, def on the 2nd or 3rd night and then they start getting offset.. Unless you want to restock everyday.   

And theres the sanity check of being able to look at each panel before it goes into the oven....
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Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #48 on: October 21, 2018, 05:25:21 am »
Do you feel that way about universal instruments?  I just got a gsm flexjet (10k cph) and a dual beam inline7 machine (27k) and they seem very fast.  I am still setting them up but my entire circuit is all tiny chips.

Yes, depending on how big your run is.   IF you start timing from teh time you start the job, till the time you finish, then you'll have a realistic number.. Over time you'll know how your system pans out.     What matters when you have to work out how long a job will take is how long it will take. Not the theortical limits!

In my system, we have a 'theortical' rate of around 24k parts per hour..  Practically we get around 7k.     Having bigger pcbs / or panels will help.. The set up of nozzles, and were feeders are all makes a difference too.
 
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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #49 on: October 21, 2018, 05:34:06 am »
in practical terms;

you would need automated solder paste stenciling or dispencing.   The Fox has solder jet printing, but once you start getting down in size its problematic.   I am hopeful that one day solder paste printing will actually get their and be affordable.. ( MY-500 printer is pretty good, its just $500,000).  An automatic stencil printer is going to hit you up for $50-$60k.

you'll need a board loader, and a board unloader..      A hole nights operation, probalby would deplete some reels, if not the first night, def on the 2nd or 3rd night and then they start getting offset.. Unless you want to restock everyday.   

And theres the sanity check of being able to look at each panel before it goes into the oven....

I bought a vintage dek automatic stencil printer for $500 and it works.  I dont have board loader and unloader yet.  I have 2 essemtec 300fc ovens.  My panels have 50 boards on them and are smaller than 8.5x11.  I can restock everyday or setup multiple reels.  I bought 2 desktop marantz AOI systems.  I only have 2 main pcbs with 30 parts.  I am new to SMT but I want the best pick and place machine.
 

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #50 on: October 21, 2018, 04:39:19 pm »
I bought a vintage dek automatic stencil printer for $500 and it works.  I dont have board loader and unloader yet.  I have 2 essemtec 300fc ovens.  My panels have 50 boards on them and are smaller than 8.5x11.  I can restock everyday or setup multiple reels.  I bought 2 desktop marantz AOI systems.  I only have 2 main pcbs with 30 parts.  I am new to SMT but I want the best pick and place machine.
Small boards, big panels, you love things overbuild and admire Fuji - you should have bought a CP-6 then! :-DD :-DD
Beside no worrying about night runs as all your boards would have been done by the first coffee break in the morning.  :-DD
 

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #51 on: October 21, 2018, 11:07:29 pm »
Quote from: Nauris
Small boards, big panels, you love things overbuild and admire Fuji - you should have bought a CP-6 then! :-DD :-DD
Beside no worrying about night runs as all your boards would have been done by the first coffee break in the morning.  :-DD

I would have if they weren't so big and ridicously expensive.  The ones for sale on ebay are from mid 90s and take up an entire warehouse.  I am not sure what their service department is like.
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2018, 11:37:28 pm »
Sounds like you've bought quite a stack of gear now.  Have you started getting it to run yet?
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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #53 on: October 22, 2018, 12:55:29 am »
I'm running a Europlacer XPII which also has a reasonably small footprint, but limited feeder capacity. So far though I've not had any jobs that required more feeders than it can handle. I'd be in no hurry to run lights-out as there is often some little problem (usually my own handy-work) that throws a spanner in the works and requires human intervention to fix. Not to mention reloading feeders - high speed machines don't take long to get through 10K reels. Even though my machine has a claimed speed of 30K per hour most jobs typically achieve closer to 16K with a mix of components.
I'm a big fan of feeder systems that use 'cheap' feed elements that are loaded into a magazine/cart, it can dramatically lower the cost of feeders and you can never have enough feeders.
 

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #54 on: October 22, 2018, 01:47:36 am »
I'm running a Europlacer XPII which also has a reasonably small footprint, but limited feeder capacity. So far though I've not had any jobs that required more feeders than it can handle. I'd be in no hurry to run lights-out as there is often some little problem (usually my own handy-work) that throws a spanner in the works and requires human intervention to fix. Not to mention reloading feeders - high speed machines don't take long to get through 10K reels. Even though my machine has a claimed speed of 30K per hour most jobs typically achieve closer to 16K with a mix of components.
I'm a big fan of feeder systems that use 'cheap' feed elements that are loaded into a magazine/cart, it can dramatically lower the cost of feeders and you can never have enough feeders.

Yeah, this is why i really like the Yamaha CL feeders. at USD$55 for a 8mm feeder, its not too bad.
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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2018, 04:39:48 am »
Yes, but running into 1 issue with the universal pick and place GI-14D (its not finding home on origin on one of the y axis).  I am close to bringing in UIC to service. Also, taking time to learn programming on the windows GI-14D, the OS2 GSM we figured out.  Currently using this to program:
http://www.unisoft-cim.com/pcbplace.htm

I bought more equipment and the pick and place is the only issue left.  I just got the GI-14D last week.  It seems ALOT faster than the GSM flexjet head.  My current dream machine is the 2 axis lightning head with VRM motors but I imagine I will need a much bigger reflow oven.  Although I look at other manufacuturers to see if a better/cheaper alternative exists that will run with least amount of repairs/issues.  There are soo many it gets confusing and everyone seems to have strong brand loyalty to particular brands.  Collecting used SMT equipment that I use has become a hobby for me.
 

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #56 on: October 22, 2018, 05:35:39 am »
Yes, but running into 1 issue with the universal pick and place GI-14D (its not finding home on origin on one of the y axis).  I am close to bringing in UIC to service. Also, taking time to learn programming on the windows GI-14D, the OS2 GSM we figured out.  Currently using this to program:
http://www.unisoft-cim.com/pcbplace.htm

I bought more equipment and the pick and place is the only issue left.  I just got the GI-14D last week.  It seems ALOT faster than the GSM flexjet head.  My current dream machine is the 2 axis lightning head with VRM motors but I imagine I will need a much bigger reflow oven.  Although I look at other manufacuturers to see if a better/cheaper alternative exists that will run with least amount of repairs/issues.  There are soo many it gets confusing and everyone seems to have strong brand loyalty to particular brands.  Collecting used SMT equipment that I use has become a hobby for me.

I wrote from stratch some python code to create VIOS files. ( thats what Yamaha / Phillips/ Assemblontec ) use.  ( all same machiens, multiple brands). Its highly custom to my system.     It did take some time.  I'm using YV-100ii's and they are old, but they are workign really well for me.    Am going to add a third one soon.
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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #57 on: October 22, 2018, 07:56:14 am »
I wrote from stratch some python code to create VIOS files. ( thats what Yamaha / Phillips/ Assemblontec ) use.  ( all same machiens, multiple brands). Its highly custom to my system.     It did take some time.  I'm using YV-100ii's and they are old, but they are workign really well for me.    Am going to add a third one soon.
Do you perhaps have a document with the CAN codes/protocol of an Assembleon feeder?
I recently purchased 15 pieces. Now I am trying to find any information to get them up and running.
What I discovered thusfar is they only need 12V and ground and have a two wire CAN interface, it should be running autonomously detecting the pickhead through the disturbance of an IR beam, but I still would like to find out what the CAN protocol does, perhaps it also needs some ready or power on command.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 01:01:58 pm by Kjelt »
 

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #58 on: November 17, 2018, 07:14:44 pm »
I wrote from stratch some python code to create VIOS files. ( thats what Yamaha / Phillips/ Assemblontec ) use.  ( all same machiens, multiple brands). Its highly custom to my system.     It did take some time.  I'm using YV-100ii's and they are old, but they are workign really well for me.    Am going to add a third one soon.

I just bought a '00 YV112 (assembleon sapphire) with 20k hours on it for $3k.  It came with a ton of brand new spare parts (spare 12 nozzle head, cameras, nozzles, power supplies, controller, pcb cards, servoboards, etc).  Need to order some feeders still.  Do you recommend chinese copy CL feeders or FV?  Trying to learn more about philips/assembleon/yamaha gem story.  If you have any insight please share.
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #59 on: November 17, 2018, 08:01:57 pm »
CL feeders over FV every day of the week.      ksunsmt (http://www.ksunsmt.com/ ) in china are your go to guys for parts / feeders..  Been awesome for me.


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Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #60 on: November 17, 2018, 08:17:51 pm »
I wrote from stratch some python code to create VIOS files. ( thats what Yamaha / Phillips/ Assemblontec ) use.  ( all same machiens, multiple brands). Its highly custom to my system.     It did take some time.  I'm using YV-100ii's and they are old, but they are workign really well for me.    Am going to add a third one soon.

I just bought a '00 YV112 (assembleon sapphire) with 20k hours on it for $3k.  It came with a ton of brand new spare parts (spare 12 nozzle head, cameras, nozzles, power supplies, controller, pcb cards, servoboards, etc).  Need to order some feeders still.  Do you recommend chinese copy CL feeders or FV?  Trying to learn more about philips/assembleon/yamaha gem story.  If you have any insight please share.

Are you starting a museum of PNP machines?
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Online Reckless

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #61 on: November 17, 2018, 08:28:46 pm »
Yes, I call it ghetto SMT.  When you cant afford new equipment but want nice chip shooters.  I really want a Yamaha 200k cph chip shooter but dont have $400k lying around.  Plus when I buy something I want it to last lifetimes.

Unfortunately not much resources on the internet on these machines.  Most of these companies hardly make 100 machines per year.  I feel like some companies make better machines than others but hard to figure out.  I am really curious how Samsung compares to Yamaha. 
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #62 on: November 17, 2018, 09:21:56 pm »
Yes, I call it ghetto SMT.  When you cant afford new equipment but want nice chip shooters.  I really want a Yamaha 200k cph chip shooter but dont have $400k lying around.  Plus when I buy something I want it to last lifetimes.

Unfortunately not much resources on the internet on these machines.  Most of these companies hardly make 100 machines per year.  I feel like some companies make better machines than others but hard to figure out.  I am really curious how Samsung compares to Yamaha.

Yamaha and Juki are probably the more common machines in the Asian Factorys.   I've not seen too many chinese machines in chinese factories.   Samsung is somethign i've had no expereince with.    You are right you'll be really straching around to find much info on your YVxxx machines on the ineterwebs.


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Online Reckless

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #63 on: November 18, 2018, 01:52:12 am »
What are your thoughts of Juki vs Yamaha? 
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #64 on: November 18, 2018, 03:33:19 am »
I think i'm probably now biased towards Yamaha, as its what i use all the time.   Some of the Jukis however come into their own if you are doing lots of feeder changes, as you can stick in entire bank of feeders on a cart in one go.   The yamahas are cheaper in term sof feeders/nozzles, and i think are possibly simpler to operate.    But all that being said, both are not bad machines.
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Offline SMTech

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #65 on: November 19, 2018, 01:13:50 am »
Pretty sure plenty of Yamahas have feeder carts too if that's something you need, on paper I can't say there's that much to choose between them but I have paid very little attention to older models. Both of them have multiple generations of feeders ranging from mechanical to smart electronic and many machines support several of them at once. Some Juki feeders seemed a bit slot greedy last time I looked and they also make some lower end models that have quite low slot numbers (80). Juki tend to mix optical and laser alignment, the laser is on the head which makes it on the fly so feeders not right next to the camera are more optimal. However I have an idea Yamaha sometimes fits the camera to the gantry so it follows the head too... The new(ish) Juki RS1 looks really nice, Juki have always claimed lowest TCO, I would love to see some real numbers that demonstrate if that were true or not.

A broker of 2nd user machines did break down some brands to us once to typical traits but I don't recall them all
Samsung-- Just dependable mid-range workhorses, the older one perhaps not super super friendly (Notice however their(well Hanwhas) very latest models include some pretty high end looking stuff)
ASM/Siemens - Platform burners, everything changes between platforms or even ranges, feeders, heads nozzles which is not exactly friendly.

For most of the typical people on this forum, the machines built to be sued the way we might use them are Essemtec(and the other small machines like Fritsch), Europlacer, and Mycronic and these are also excellent machines for small volume high mix contractors, development on these platforms wasn't primarily focused on speed but on how people use them. (Mycronic & Europlacer are working on speed now tho')
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #66 on: November 19, 2018, 03:06:09 am »
Pretty sure plenty of Yamahas have feeder carts too if that's something you need, on paper I can't say there's that much to choose between them but I have paid very little attention to older models.

They do, and in fact its an option even for my older machines.. ( i did a little bit of research ). It does require a different setup for how the feeders are setup.. its not somethign i'd get much gain from but would be pretty cool if you are contract manufacturing, as you could have someone setting up the next job while the machines are running doing this job.     

Quote
However I have an idea Yamaha sometimes fits the camera to the gantry so it follows the head too...

My machines have a camera on the head, but this is just used for finding fiducials or training the machine.

Quote
The new(ish) Juki RS1 looks really nice, Juki have always claimed lowest TCO, I would love to see some real numbers that demonstrate if that were true or not.
They all make 'claims'..   Realistically a new Juki or yamaha is going to do a lot of work!   I got my yamahas 2nd hand and a bargin, but i'd not be adverse to a juki..   however now i have built up quite a lot of expereince with them that woudl count for something.


Quote
A broker of 2nd user machines did break down some brands to us once to typical traits but I don't recall them all
Samsung-- Just dependable mid-range workhorses, the older one perhaps not super super friendly (Notice however their(well Hanwhas) very latest models include some pretty high end looking stuff)
ASM/Siemens - Platform burners, everything changes between platforms or even ranges, feeders, heads nozzles which is not exactly friendly.

My thoughts are that the new systems have got more complex!
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Online Reckless

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #67 on: November 19, 2018, 07:21:14 am »

A broker of 2nd user machines did break down some brands to us once to typical traits but I don't recall them all
Samsung-- Just dependable mid-range workhorses, the older one perhaps not super super friendly (Notice however their(well Hanwhas) very latest models include some pretty high end looking stuff)
ASM/Siemens - Platform burners, everything changes between platforms or even ranges, feeders, heads nozzles which is not exactly friendly.


Do you remember what he said about Yamaha and Universal?  I see everyone say Fuji or Siemens.  For some reason my gut is off on siemens.  Fujis are expensive. 
 

Offline SMTech

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #68 on: November 19, 2018, 08:57:16 am »
Oddly I don't think they came up, at the time in the UK there were lots of CP40/CP45 machines about, the old Juki machines people shouldn't buy and there always seem to be MyData/Europlacers about. Old Yamaha machines tho I think were probably all Assembleon badged ones and yet I don't remember them coming up... In the UK I think the most successful Yamaha marque may well be iPulse, certainly the distributor for those has had that franchise for quite some time while the Yamaha one has moved about even while iPulse becomes less of a separate entity. iPulse owners seem pretty happy with them, the dealer has a huge list of places who are happy to discuss their machines and how they find them.

Of course there are all sorts of things that affect what might make a machine a better choice. In the UK, Essemtecs representative currently doesn't have a dedicated service engineer, its a 3rd party. While you might find someone else to service some of their older models that 3rd party is probably the only person who knows their way around the more recent models. Juki are represented by a company  in Scotland meaning they are quite a road trip away for a lot of places. By contrast iPulse is represented by someone in Coventry slap in the middle of the country, right on the motorway network and they have a fairly large team of engineers - that could matter a lot to some people.
 

Offline robint91

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #69 on: July 21, 2019, 05:01:29 pm »
I will hopefully get mine brand new Fox in about 10 days time. I have around 60 8mm feeders, 20 12mm, few 16 and 24. No vibration feeder, because I hate that type. It totaled around 120k€. We did not go for the dispensing option yet.

We looked first for some lower cost machine, but I didn't feel it could do 0.65 mm and 0.8 mm BGA or 0402 all day. And I was worried about the software.

I will keep you guys posted.

 
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Offline SMTech

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #70 on: July 21, 2019, 05:22:59 pm »
Enjoy, and yes vibration feeders suck. What feeder types have you gone for the HyQ or CLM (which i have no doubt is still an option if you request it). I was under the impression the tube feeders on the HyQ feeder platform were air operated single lane type devices, effective but obviously much more expensive.
 

Online Reckless

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #71 on: July 21, 2019, 05:47:28 pm »
Did you get Fox2 or Fox4?   I was looking for an excuse to get one to have a 2 in 1 machine (dispensing and picknplace).  But I have given up and dreaming about a Fuji NXT III with the tiny modular turrets (45k cph/ea).  I just hate how complex their software is.  5 days training shouldn't be required.  I wish they follow Essemtecs example for software on a pnp.  They really made it sexy and intuitive. 

Fuji NXT M3 x4 (there is an even more compact unit than below, looks similar size as fox).  Need one of these in my family room so I can change reels during commercial breaks.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2019, 06:08:30 pm by Reckless »
 

Offline robint91

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #72 on: July 21, 2019, 06:13:55 pm »
@SMTech, I have a mixture of both. I have the HyQ mainly for the 8mm feeders (to do 0201) all the other are the CLM type.

@Reckless, Just the 1 head version, First I had the Fox2 and less feeders, but after a few good nights sleep, I though it was more efficient to add more feeders instead of adding a head.
 

Online Reckless

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #73 on: July 22, 2019, 06:08:31 am »
Let me know if you get 0402s to run at 100% speed.  When I saw the demo parts were flying everywhere even at 80% but they claimed it was an improper setup. 

Essemtec really knows how to make eye catching machines.  I want to see them go very far.  I use their ovens and like them alot. 
 

Offline SMTech

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #74 on: July 22, 2019, 04:37:42 pm »
We don't do a whole lot of 0402 on our Paraquda but I've never seen an issue with them when I do, from CLM feeders they actually go down a bit quicker than 4mm pitch parts as the feeders are slower than the machine and with 2mm pitch its exposing 2 at once for a double pick. A Fox presumably moves a touch quicker and more smoothly with its linear motors vs the Paraqudas belts. The nozzles look pretty similar in the videos and I wouldn't be surprised if the vacuum setup in the head isn't very similar too.

The eye catching aesthetic was really introduced with the Paraquda and its matching Printer the machines before that were much more boxy and the ones before that looked decidedly cheap; extruded Aluminium etc. Although there was another machine that was basically a Versatec C5 with a sexy lid on it.
 

Offline sbk_lou

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #75 on: October 01, 2019, 08:49:13 pm »
@robint91 could you share how your experience has been with the Essemtec Fox1? We are considering a Fox2 with dispensing ourselves.
 

Offline robint91

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #76 on: October 03, 2019, 11:51:03 am »
I like it. It is very fast, currently we run it only at 50% of it rated speed because raw speed doesn't matter that much for us. We are building almost only prototypes. We are in the talks to upgrade our solderpaste setup, we are comparing the jetter vs a new screenprinter.

We did someboards  0.65mm BGAs and almost all had 0402 components, it does that flawlessly. The teaching of components is very intuitive. If you copy the numbers on the datasheet the vision system has it almost no issues in detecting a part, some parts require some manual fiddling to get it working 100%.

The machine did bring some changes to our design setup, we aligned the naming scheme of PCB libraries to the machine, and also we introduced some simple stock system with unified component names.

My goal is to get the setup time down to 30 min on moderate difficulty PCB's.

We have a few projects planned where we need to do 0.5mm BGA and 0201. But I expect no big problem with the pick and place, but more with the solderpaste.

Going from a Fox1 to a Fox2 is quite simple setup. And I would only do it if I really have speed problems and would spent more the screenprinter/dispenser.

I have a mix of HyQ feeders and CLM, If I would do it again, I would have taken more HyQ feeders. But then again, the CLMs are quite cheap compared to the HyQ and speed doesn't really matter for me.
 

Offline SMTech

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Re: Essemtec Fox - thoughts?
« Reply #77 on: October 03, 2019, 02:55:19 pm »
As a CLM user I think you might find they have more parts that wear, the HyQ might not be as expensive as you think once its a few years in. As an interesting point of reference I was talking to a guy selling Fuji machines the other day and a single 8mm lane for one of those is ~700GBP. Not all that different to the per lane cost of a CLM950 cassette.
 


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