Essemtec Fox - thoughts?

[Reckless]

Small boards, big panels, you love things overbuild and admire Fuji - you should have bought a CP-6 then!
Beside no worrying about night runs as all your boards would have been done by the first coffee break in the morning. 

I would have if they weren't so big and ridicously expensive.  The ones for sale on ebay are from mid 90s and take up an entire warehouse.  I am not sure what their service department is like.

[mrpackethead]

Sounds like you've bought quite a stack of gear now.  Have you started getting it to run yet?

[AgileE]

I'm running a Europlacer XPII which also has a reasonably small footprint, but limited feeder capacity. So far though I've not had any jobs that required more feeders than it can handle. I'd be in no hurry to run lights-out as there is often some little problem (usually my own handy-work) that throws a spanner in the works and requires human intervention to fix. Not to mention reloading feeders - high speed machines don't take long to get through 10K reels. Even though my machine has a claimed speed of 30K per hour most jobs typically achieve closer to 16K with a mix of components.
I'm a big fan of feeder systems that use 'cheap' feed elements that are loaded into a magazine/cart, it can dramatically lower the cost of feeders and you can never have enough feeders.

[mrpackethead]

I'm running a Europlacer XPII which also has a reasonably small footprint, but limited feeder capacity. So far though I've not had any jobs that required more feeders than it can handle. I'd be in no hurry to run lights-out as there is often some little problem (usually my own handy-work) that throws a spanner in the works and requires human intervention to fix. Not to mention reloading feeders - high speed machines don't take long to get through 10K reels. Even though my machine has a claimed speed of 30K per hour most jobs typically achieve closer to 16K with a mix of components.
I'm a big fan of feeder systems that use 'cheap' feed elements that are loaded into a magazine/cart, it can dramatically lower the cost of feeders and you can never have enough feeders.

Yeah, this is why i really like the Yamaha CL feeders. at USD$55 for a 8mm feeder, its not too bad.

[Reckless]

Yes, but running into 1 issue with the universal pick and place GI-14D (its not finding home on origin on one of the y axis).  I am close to bringing in UIC to service. Also, taking time to learn programming on the windows GI-14D, the OS2 GSM we figured out.  Currently using this to program:
http://www.unisoft-cim.com/pcbplace.htm

I bought more equipment and the pick and place is the only issue left.  I just got the GI-14D last week.  It seems ALOT faster than the GSM flexjet head.  My current dream machine is the 2 axis lightning head with VRM motors but I imagine I will need a much bigger reflow oven.  Although I look at other manufacuturers to see if a better/cheaper alternative exists that will run with least amount of repairs/issues.  There are soo many it gets confusing and everyone seems to have strong brand loyalty to particular brands.  Collecting used SMT equipment that I use has become a hobby for me.

[mrpackethead]

Yes, but running into 1 issue with the universal pick and place GI-14D (its not finding home on origin on one of the y axis).  I am close to bringing in UIC to service. Also, taking time to learn programming on the windows GI-14D, the OS2 GSM we figured out.  Currently using this to program:
http://www.unisoft-cim.com/pcbplace.htm

I bought more equipment and the pick and place is the only issue left.  I just got the GI-14D last week.  It seems ALOT faster than the GSM flexjet head.  My current dream machine is the 2 axis lightning head with VRM motors but I imagine I will need a much bigger reflow oven.  Although I look at other manufacuturers to see if a better/cheaper alternative exists that will run with least amount of repairs/issues.  There are soo many it gets confusing and everyone seems to have strong brand loyalty to particular brands.  Collecting used SMT equipment that I use has become a hobby for me.

I wrote from stratch some python code to create VIOS files. ( thats what Yamaha / Phillips/ Assemblontec ) use.  ( all same machiens, multiple brands). Its highly custom to my system.     It did take some time.  I'm using YV-100ii's and they are old, but they are workign really well for me.    Am going to add a third one soon.

[Kjelt]

I wrote from stratch some python code to create VIOS files. ( thats what Yamaha / Phillips/ Assemblontec ) use.  ( all same machiens, multiple brands). Its highly custom to my system.     It did take some time.  I'm using YV-100ii's and they are old, but they are workign really well for me.    Am going to add a third one soon.

Do you perhaps have a document with the CAN codes/protocol of an Assembleon feeder?
I recently purchased 15 pieces. Now I am trying to find any information to get them up and running.
What I discovered thusfar is they only need 12V and ground and have a two wire CAN interface, it should be running autonomously detecting the pickhead through the disturbance of an IR beam, but I still would like to find out what the CAN protocol does, perhaps it also needs some ready or power on command.

[Reckless]

I wrote from stratch some python code to create VIOS files. ( thats what Yamaha / Phillips/ Assemblontec ) use.  ( all same machiens, multiple brands). Its highly custom to my system.     It did take some time.  I'm using YV-100ii's and they are old, but they are workign really well for me.    Am going to add a third one soon.

I just bought a '00 YV112 (assembleon sapphire) with 20k hours on it for $3k.  It came with a ton of brand new spare parts (spare 12 nozzle head, cameras, nozzles, power supplies, controller, pcb cards, servoboards, etc).  Need to order some feeders still.  Do you recommend chinese copy CL feeders or FV?  Trying to learn more about philips/assembleon/yamaha gem story.  If you have any insight please share.

[mrpackethead]

CL feeders over FV every day of the week.      ksunsmt (http://www.ksunsmt.com/ ) in china are your go to guys for parts / feeders..  Been awesome for me.

[mrpackethead]

I wrote from stratch some python code to create VIOS files. ( thats what Yamaha / Phillips/ Assemblontec ) use.  ( all same machiens, multiple brands). Its highly custom to my system.     It did take some time.  I'm using YV-100ii's and they are old, but they are workign really well for me.    Am going to add a third one soon.

I just bought a '00 YV112 (assembleon sapphire) with 20k hours on it for $3k.  It came with a ton of brand new spare parts (spare 12 nozzle head, cameras, nozzles, power supplies, controller, pcb cards, servoboards, etc).  Need to order some feeders still.  Do you recommend chinese copy CL feeders or FV?  Trying to learn more about philips/assembleon/yamaha gem story.  If you have any insight please share.

Are you starting a museum of PNP machines?

[Reckless]

Yes, I call it ghetto SMT.  When you cant afford new equipment but want nice chip shooters.  I really want a Yamaha 200k cph chip shooter but dont have $400k lying around.  Plus when I buy something I want it to last lifetimes.

Unfortunately not much resources on the internet on these machines.  Most of these companies hardly make 100 machines per year.  I feel like some companies make better machines than others but hard to figure out.  I am really curious how Samsung compares to Yamaha. 

[mrpackethead]

Yes, I call it ghetto SMT.  When you cant afford new equipment but want nice chip shooters.  I really want a Yamaha 200k cph chip shooter but dont have $400k lying around.  Plus when I buy something I want it to last lifetimes.

Unfortunately not much resources on the internet on these machines.  Most of these companies hardly make 100 machines per year.  I feel like some companies make better machines than others but hard to figure out.  I am really curious how Samsung compares to Yamaha.

Yamaha and Juki are probably the more common machines in the Asian Factorys.   I've not seen too many chinese machines in chinese factories.   Samsung is somethign i've had no expereince with.    You are right you'll be really straching around to find much info on your YVxxx machines on the ineterwebs.

[Reckless]

What are your thoughts of Juki vs Yamaha? 

[mrpackethead]

I think i'm probably now biased towards Yamaha, as its what i use all the time.   Some of the Jukis however come into their own if you are doing lots of feeder changes, as you can stick in entire bank of feeders on a cart in one go.   The yamahas are cheaper in term sof feeders/nozzles, and i think are possibly simpler to operate.    But all that being said, both are not bad machines.

[SMTech]

Pretty sure plenty of Yamahas have feeder carts too if that's something you need, on paper I can't say there's that much to choose between them but I have paid very little attention to older models. Both of them have multiple generations of feeders ranging from mechanical to smart electronic and many machines support several of them at once. Some Juki feeders seemed a bit slot greedy last time I looked and they also make some lower end models that have quite low slot numbers (80). Juki tend to mix optical and laser alignment, the laser is on the head which makes it on the fly so feeders not right next to the camera are more optimal. However I have an idea Yamaha sometimes fits the camera to the gantry so it follows the head too... The new(ish) Juki RS1 looks really nice, Juki have always claimed lowest TCO, I would love to see some real numbers that demonstrate if that were true or not.

A broker of 2nd user machines did break down some brands to us once to typical traits but I don't recall them all
Samsung-- Just dependable mid-range workhorses, the older one perhaps not super super friendly (Notice however their(well Hanwhas) very latest models include some pretty high end looking stuff)
ASM/Siemens - Platform burners, everything changes between platforms or even ranges, feeders, heads nozzles which is not exactly friendly.

For most of the typical people on this forum, the machines built to be sued the way we might use them are Essemtec(and the other small machines like Fritsch), Europlacer, and Mycronic and these are also excellent machines for small volume high mix contractors, development on these platforms wasn't primarily focused on speed but on how people use them. (Mycronic & Europlacer are working on speed now tho')

[mrpackethead]

Pretty sure plenty of Yamahas have feeder carts too if that's something you need, on paper I can't say there's that much to choose between them but I have paid very little attention to older models.

They do, and in fact its an option even for my older machines.. ( i did a little bit of research ). It does require a different setup for how the feeders are setup.. its not somethign i'd get much gain from but would be pretty cool if you are contract manufacturing, as you could have someone setting up the next job while the machines are running doing this job.     

However I have an idea Yamaha sometimes fits the camera to the gantry so it follows the head too...

My machines have a camera on the head, but this is just used for finding fiducials or training the machine.

The new(ish) Juki RS1 looks really nice, Juki have always claimed lowest TCO, I would love to see some real numbers that demonstrate if that were true or not.

They all make 'claims'..   Realistically a new Juki or yamaha is going to do a lot of work!   I got my yamahas 2nd hand and a bargin, but i'd not be adverse to a juki..   however now i have built up quite a lot of expereince with them that woudl count for something.

A broker of 2nd user machines did break down some brands to us once to typical traits but I don't recall them all
Samsung-- Just dependable mid-range workhorses, the older one perhaps not super super friendly (Notice however their(well Hanwhas) very latest models include some pretty high end looking stuff)
ASM/Siemens - Platform burners, everything changes between platforms or even ranges, feeders, heads nozzles which is not exactly friendly.

My thoughts are that the new systems have got more complex!

[Reckless]

A broker of 2nd user machines did break down some brands to us once to typical traits but I don't recall them all
Samsung-- Just dependable mid-range workhorses, the older one perhaps not super super friendly (Notice however their(well Hanwhas) very latest models include some pretty high end looking stuff)
ASM/Siemens - Platform burners, everything changes between platforms or even ranges, feeders, heads nozzles which is not exactly friendly.

Do you remember what he said about Yamaha and Universal?  I see everyone say Fuji or Siemens.  For some reason my gut is off on siemens.  Fujis are expensive. 

[SMTech]

Oddly I don't think they came up, at the time in the UK there were lots of CP40/CP45 machines about, the old Juki machines people shouldn't buy and there always seem to be MyData/Europlacers about. Old Yamaha machines tho I think were probably all Assembleon badged ones and yet I don't remember them coming up... In the UK I think the most successful Yamaha marque may well be iPulse, certainly the distributor for those has had that franchise for quite some time while the Yamaha one has moved about even while iPulse becomes less of a separate entity. iPulse owners seem pretty happy with them, the dealer has a huge list of places who are happy to discuss their machines and how they find them.

Of course there are all sorts of things that affect what might make a machine a better choice. In the UK, Essemtecs representative currently doesn't have a dedicated service engineer, its a 3rd party. While you might find someone else to service some of their older models that 3rd party is probably the only person who knows their way around the more recent models. Juki are represented by a company  in Scotland meaning they are quite a road trip away for a lot of places. By contrast iPulse is represented by someone in Coventry slap in the middle of the country, right on the motorway network and they have a fairly large team of engineers - that could matter a lot to some people.

[robint91]

I will hopefully get mine brand new Fox in about 10 days time. I have around 60 8mm feeders, 20 12mm, few 16 and 24. No vibration feeder, because I hate that type. It totaled around 120k€. We did not go for the dispensing option yet.

We looked first for some lower cost machine, but I didn't feel it could do 0.65 mm and 0.8 mm BGA or 0402 all day. And I was worried about the software.

I will keep you guys posted.

[SMTech]

Enjoy, and yes vibration feeders suck. What feeder types have you gone for the HyQ or CLM (which i have no doubt is still an option if you request it). I was under the impression the tube feeders on the HyQ feeder platform were air operated single lane type devices, effective but obviously much more expensive.

[Reckless]

Did you get Fox2 or Fox4?   I was looking for an excuse to get one to have a 2 in 1 machine (dispensing and picknplace).  But I have given up and dreaming about a Fuji NXT III with the tiny modular turrets (45k cph/ea).  I just hate how complex their software is.  5 days training shouldn't be required.  I wish they follow Essemtecs example for software on a pnp.  They really made it sexy and intuitive. 

Fuji NXT M3 x4 (there is an even more compact unit than below, looks similar size as fox).  Need one of these in my family room so I can change reels during commercial breaks.

[robint91]

@SMTech, I have a mixture of both. I have the HyQ mainly for the 8mm feeders (to do 0201) all the other are the CLM type.

@Reckless, Just the 1 head version, First I had the Fox2 and less feeders, but after a few good nights sleep, I though it was more efficient to add more feeders instead of adding a head.

[Reckless]

Let me know if you get 0402s to run at 100% speed.  When I saw the demo parts were flying everywhere even at 80% but they claimed it was an improper setup. 

Essemtec really knows how to make eye catching machines.  I want to see them go very far.  I use their ovens and like them alot. 

[SMTech]

We don't do a whole lot of 0402 on our Paraquda but I've never seen an issue with them when I do, from CLM feeders they actually go down a bit quicker than 4mm pitch parts as the feeders are slower than the machine and with 2mm pitch its exposing 2 at once for a double pick. A Fox presumably moves a touch quicker and more smoothly with its linear motors vs the Paraqudas belts. The nozzles look pretty similar in the videos and I wouldn't be surprised if the vacuum setup in the head isn't very similar too.

The eye catching aesthetic was really introduced with the Paraquda and its matching Printer the machines before that were much more boxy and the ones before that looked decidedly cheap; extruded Aluminium etc. Although there was another machine that was basically a Versatec C5 with a sexy lid on it.

[sbk_lou]

@robint91 could you share how your experience has been with the Essemtec Fox1? We are considering a Fox2 with dispensing ourselves.