Author Topic: Experience of Neoden IN6 reflow oven ?  (Read 9206 times)

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Offline GerardG

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Re: Experience of Neoden IN6 reflow oven ?
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2023, 03:07:12 pm »
Hello,

The T8 has no CE.

The heater problems are history, we sold 215 units in Europe of the IN6 and numbers are still growing.

Spare parts are in stock in the Netherlands and we have a service desk open during office hours.

Offline forrestc

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Re: Experience of Neoden IN6 reflow oven ?
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2023, 05:27:28 am »
The heater problems are history, we sold 215 units in Europe of the IN6 and numbers are still growing.

That's not 100% accurate unless something has changed in the last 6 months.

I'm still burning out heater units in the final zone on the 120V machines.  Lost one last week.  Not sure about the 240V ones.   It's costing me around $1500-$2000/year to operate based solely on replacement elements at $500USD shipped each.
 
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Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: Experience of Neoden IN6 reflow oven ?
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2023, 05:51:58 am »
I don't get it, if it is a known design and quality issue, why owners are paying for these?

Offline Reckless

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Re: Experience of Neoden IN6 reflow oven ?
« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2023, 07:53:19 pm »
I am soo glad users are posting about this issue on this forum.  I almost bought one to try out, really surprised that Neoden is not extending the warranty.  It sounds like a product design flaw.  I'd be pretty upset if I had to replace heaters every few years.  My Essemtec reflow ovens have been soo good to me that I expect all ovens not to give ANY problems. 
 

Offline forrestc

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Re: Experience of Neoden IN6 reflow oven ?
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2023, 11:43:19 pm »
I'd be pretty upset if I had to replace heaters every few years.

Try every few months.
 

Offline forrestc

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Re: Experience of Neoden IN6 reflow oven ?
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2023, 12:00:30 am »
Some more information for those who are curious.

We've lost at least 6-7 elements since we switched to lead-free processing mid-year 2021.   Before that we didn't have any failures.   We've only lost zone 3 elements, so this is a heat-related failure.

We run the final zone at 280*C which is about the minimum we can run while still meeting temperature/time restrictions on the flux we use (that is, time above TAL and time before flux exhaustion).

The attached picture shows the method of failure.  Basically the element wires are attached to those copper/brass spacers.  The element (nichrome?) wire attaches to the bottom of the screw.   The wire always vaporizes between the screw and the element.   I'm assuming that what is happening here is that the wire in that area is more likely to get hot because it isn't directly in contact with aluminum.   As a result, it can overheat and vaporize.

On the most recent exchange with them, I've suggested that they replace that last piece of wire with a section of copper wire to see if that resolves it.   Or, alternatively, move to dual 240V elements such that each would take half the heat and would probably be made out of thicker wire.   If the 240V ovens are not failing, then this might be the case - although I'm 99% sure they sent me a 240V element once and it failed as well.

 
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Offline Reckless

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Re: Experience of Neoden IN6 reflow oven ?
« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2023, 03:49:05 am »
I have an obsession with small reflow ovens and have tried almost all: mancorp, torch, puhui, essemtec, vitronics, novastar, goldflow, heller.  Im skipping the Neoden.  I have both Essemtecs and Vitronics spare ovens for sale which come highly recommended.  These are the only 2 that have worked for me.  None of that $500 heater elements going out every few months junk.
 

Offline asmi

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Re: Experience of Neoden IN6 reflow oven ?
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2023, 05:20:59 am »
I suspect that for the price of that Essemtec one could buy a lifetime supply of replacement heaters and still have enough money left to buy a second oven just in case...
« Last Edit: March 31, 2023, 05:23:00 am by asmi »
 

Online Kean

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Re: Experience of Neoden IN6 reflow oven ?
« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2023, 05:39:57 am »
I suspect that for the price of that Essemtec one could buy a lifetime supply of replacement heaters and still have enough money left to buy a second oven just in case...

Maybe, but what is the cost of the downtime while waiting for and replacing the heaters?
 

Offline asmi

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Re: Experience of Neoden IN6 reflow oven ?
« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2023, 05:44:32 am »
Maybe, but what is the cost of the downtime while waiting for and replacing the heaters?
For me - zero, or very close to zero. If it would be something more significant, I'd simply stock up with replacement parts. It would still likely be an order of magnitude cheaper.

Online Kean

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Re: Experience of Neoden IN6 reflow oven ?
« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2023, 06:43:37 am »
For me - zero, or very close to zero. If it would be something more significant, I'd simply stock up with replacement parts. It would still likely be an order of magnitude cheaper.

I suspect you are not the target market for an IN6 then, and like me can get away with a desktop oven.

I was seriously considering an IN6 now I have my 2nd hand CHMT-560P4 running, but I would have to rearrange things a lot to make the space.  Not worth it when I'd only run it one day a month or so.
I'm likely to just buy (build?) a better unit than my current T-962A.  I have my eye on a T-937M or an RF-A350.
 

Offline forrestc

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Re: Experience of Neoden IN6 reflow oven ?
« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2023, 06:51:15 am »
Maybe, but what is the cost of the downtime while waiting for and replacing the heaters?

About an hour for the oven to cool down enough.  Hour to do the replacement.  Half hour to order the next set of spares. 

Still not happy though.   
 
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Online Kean

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Re: Experience of Neoden IN6 reflow oven ?
« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2023, 06:55:09 am »
About an hour for the oven to cool down enough.  Hour to do the replacement.  Half hour to order the next set of spares. 

Still not happy though.

Plus a bunch of time reworking boards that didn't reflow properly before you noticed the issue...
 

Offline forrestc

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Re: Experience of Neoden IN6 reflow oven ?
« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2023, 07:27:56 am »
I have an obsession with small reflow ovens and have tried almost all: mancorp, torch, puhui, essemtec, vitronics, novastar, goldflow, heller.  Im skipping the Neoden.  I have both Essemtecs and Vitronics spare ovens for sale which come highly recommended.  These are the only 2 that have worked for me.  None of that $500 heater elements going out every few months junk.

This is great unless you don't have three phase in your building.   Unless you're counting the Essemtec RO06-plus batch, which I wouldn't even consider at this point for various reasons related to our boards and cycle time.

As far as I can tell there are only a few options for single phase ovens.   I started a thread at https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/survey-of-single-phase-reflow-ovens/ to gather data on all of them that we're aware of, the resulting spreadsheet is at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tIwnTBt4pOaDvgcw82zICtrGg5a3lDscmnBiiCTgCuQ/edit?usp=sharing.  If you have info about single phase ovens I haven't listed, please let me know.

Now I have more power in my facility (sadly 3 phase isn't even close to the area), I'm considering switching to something other than the IN6, but I'm also worried about the whole "devil you know versus the devil you don't" thing.   On the other hand, I can always keep the In6 as a spare as it can just be plugged into a 120V outlet...
 

Offline forrestc

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Re: Experience of Neoden IN6 reflow oven ?
« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2023, 07:31:18 am »
Plus a bunch of time reworking boards that didn't reflow properly before you noticed the issue...

That doesn't happen with the IN6.

It has a large "everything is at temperature" indicator strip on the entrance.  When the element fails, the light goes off and stays off.   Plus, because of the design where a it stores heat in the elements as opposed to relying on continuous heating, even if it fails mid-cycle it still will finish a reflow.

There are really a lot of nice things about the IN6.  If the element didn't blow up regularly I'd really like this oven.  I'd also love a version of it which was like 4 or 5kw and took 240V.   Again without blowing up elements.   Having to swap an element every few months is a pain in the rear, but I also have to look at the fact that this oven does a pretty good job otherwise.

If the IN6 wasn't so unreliable, I'd pull the trigger on an IN12.   


« Last Edit: March 31, 2023, 07:41:32 am by forrestc »
 

Offline asmi

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Re: Experience of Neoden IN6 reflow oven ?
« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2023, 02:22:14 pm »
I suspect you are not the target market for an IN6 then, and like me can get away with a desktop oven.

I was seriously considering an IN6 now I have my 2nd hand CHMT-560P4 running, but I would have to rearrange things a lot to make the space.  Not worth it when I'd only run it one day a month or so.
I'm likely to just buy (build?) a better unit than my current T-962A.  I have my eye on a T-937M or an RF-A350.
Currently I'm using a ZB2520HL desktop oven, which is a step up from my old modified T-962 in a sense that it works out of box without any modifications, and it's the largest oven which works off a 110 V/15 A circuit without blowing a fuse, so I'm reasonably happy with it. That said, it's still an IR oven first and foremost, and therefore some connectors like to melt in it for some reason, which is why I'm looking at my options for an air convection-based oven, and as far as I can tell, the IN6 is the cheapest option in that direction.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2023, 02:30:46 pm by asmi »
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: Experience of Neoden IN6 reflow oven ?
« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2023, 03:57:14 am »
Would like to add on that the ZB2520 is possibly the best bet around. I have T937M and there are some spotting area and connector melt under LF reflow but I use Kapton tapes to cover those connector and that saves the connector from melting.


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