Experience with and suitability of older Juki EK740/750/760 machines

[jars121]

Hi all,

Per the thread title, I'm hoping for some insight and commentary from users experienced with the Juki EK-platform (740, 750 and 760) machines. I'm conducting a thought experiment at the moment, based on a longer-term plan I have of setting up a pick and place machine for internal projects, testing, etc., to be used in conjunction with existing sub-contracted/outsourced PCBA.

What I'm primarily interested in is the following:

• Hardware reliability
• Software useability/experience
• Availability of spare parts/maintenance and support
• Feeders
• Vision - I believe there is some variability between the models in this regard
• General recommendation: are these older platforms advisable as a non-critical production/development tool or are they to be avoided?

For some additional context, I have no issue trouble shooting and problem solving industrial hardware, provided there is a light at the end of the tunnel (spare/used part availability, some semblance of operating/service manual/instruction and wiring diagrams etc). I would much rather buy a used, proven machine/platform/brand and carry service/maintenance risk than a brand new 'low-cost' machine and carry the 'I doubt this machine will last or the company who made/rebadged it will exist in 6 month's time' risk.

The projects I have in mind are for a very limited number of designs, low volume and with relatively high part count per design. I.e. I'm not looking for a solution where I'd be changing reels and reconfiguring every other day; the reels would largely remain static as the components are fairly common between the limited number of designs.

Any thoughts on the matter would be greatly appreciated

[loki42]

What price point can you get them for and what price are you comfortable with?  If you can get something nicer for similar money then maybe the makes sense instead. I'd look for what ever has cheap feeders.  Juki is still around unlike a lot of the older brands (Philips / assembleon / Sony ) that have changed hands a bunch of times.  I think for smaller runs (and probably larger runs) outsourcing is almost always better.  Jlcpcb small run etc.  I bought a uic line earlier this year but I only do a 6 pcbs currently and a few 1000 of each so I got them because giant machines are fun and I wanted to.

[jars121]

What price point can you get them for and what price are you comfortable with?  If you can get something nicer for similar money then maybe the makes sense instead. I'd look for what ever has cheap feeders.  Juki is still around unlike a lot of the older brands (Philips / assembleon / Sony ) that have changed hands a bunch of times.  I think for smaller runs (and probably larger runs) outsourcing is almost always better.  Jlcpcb small run etc.  I bought a uic line earlier this year but I only do a 6 pcbs currently and a few 1000 of each so I got them because giant machines are fun and I wanted to.

Thanks for your input loki.

I would only have 3-4 board designs (at least for the foreseeable future), and would likely be doing production runs of ~50 or so boards at a time. You have however touched on an important point which I missed in my original post; I'd love to have a large machine to play with!

In my research, I've found that the laser used in the laser alignment of the Juki's (for those with laser alignment) can die, and historically this would be a very, very costly replacement. I've done a quick search online and it seems that you can get aftermarket replacements, tested used replacements or refurbished units relatively affordably. I'd be interested to hear from users whether this is in fact true, and whether similar replacement parts (controllers, pneumatics, etc.) are also available.

[SMdude]

In late 2019 I purchased a Juki KE730. It had a few problems to begin with, so it was a battle right from the start to get it up and running. After fixing some issues(was some dry joints on a fet mounted to one of the power supply cases)(comms issue between main pc and sub cpu) I got it running then had to stumble my way around the software, trying to figure out how to make this thing do anything!

After a lot of manual reading and still some hair pulling getting the pick and place export format correct so flexprog could convert it, I finally managed to run a job on it(was about a month or 2 after receiving it)

I still had some intermittent vision problems which I think may have mostly come to the smA connectors on the laser cards needing to be done up tight with a spanner.

I did recently have a laser card fail, but luckily I purchased some spare laser cards and laser sensors really quite cheaply in the scheme of things.
I also have purchased a spare subcpu board, main computer and communications card, downlooking camera and many other bits that are good to have on hand just in case.
I also purchased a bunch more feeders.

The feeders are pretty good, but they will wear in the cover tape pulling wheel and when they get old and worn don't pull the tape well.
Sometimes the pin in the centre of the cover tape puller loosens off a little. The screw is held with locktite, you have to heat the shaft to get the locktite to let go before you can tighten it and lock it again.
Some /most of the old feeders I purchased needed a good service and lube before I could put them into service, but I did get them at a good price.

One disappointing thing about the 730(not sure on the other models) maximum part height, 6mm. In reality there is enough clearance to go higher, but when the nozzles have placed a part they go up to just over 6mm, so if you play tricks with the machine trying to get that 6.8mm high part to place, you're going to get burned  Running the machine with the lid open helped a lot to see WTF was happening as it runs at snails pace like that.

Setting the jobs up is a bit clunky, but once you figure it out and they are set up you can pretty much load the job, hit go, put your board in and walk away.


It is impressive how fast that big heavy gantry moves!

And you will want to add a forklift you your toy collection if you have not got one already.

If you are somewhere like the USA where machines like this go cheap at auctions etc, why not get one and get another as a spare parts box?

Much better than a Chinese toy.

[mon2]

Juki is a solid name - we are reviewing their higher end flagship model to increase our throughput. We currently have the Emerald-X (Yamaha YV88X) purchased from the factory as a refurb. Originally had a rough start with every piece of machinery but over the covid timeout - everything is working as it should. Very pleased with the line but just want it to be faster and more capable. With a special nozzle from Shenzhen, we can even place 01005.

With all due respect, do also place your request in the smtnet forum and gain additional feedback from owners who use these machines daily. For us, we are an engineering company first and the line allows to build small batches / prototypes very quickly.

Another up and coming name is HANWA TECHWIN - apparently a very capable machine and lower pricing but not sure about the used market for this brand.

From what we know, the faster machines that are rated at 80k-120kcph are not flexible models but rather 'chip shooters'. This is not as in ICs as we know them but rather the tiny 0402 / 0603 smd parts. The way they achieve this throughput is through little head movement off the PCB - ie. low height mounting and using gantry (round spinning / turret heads). See the videos on youtube for the newer Juki models to gain the understanding.

For us, flexible is a must have so there are Yamaha models where the head can pick up taller parts but then the throughput drops somewhat. They do offer multiheads to cater to a mix of both.

Do your homework as it will be worth it in the end but Juki is not a bad name at all in the industry. We have been told by everyone whom we chat with, 'Juki machines just work and work...'

[loki42]

I shipped my Universal machines to Australia which was a huge cost increase.  The software and documentation is good, the machines are giant, fast, and somewhat easy to navigate.  For any machine 100% go and look at it.  I didn't due to covid and with some of the stuff I bought (destacker) I regret it. 

Larger machines do assume you know what your doing and have the required extras a lot more than gear designed for shorter runs.  Moving my 3500 kg machines each 0.5 mm or less so the conveyor lined up was a multi day mission...

[Matt-Brown]

The 760 is slow. We have some of the older ones, 2 730 and 1 760. Easy enough to program and run (dos based though). The main issues you are going to see are scratched lasers and the nozzles are pure brass. The newer machines have plasic/rubber ends which work better.
The 760 If I recall only has 2 pick and place heads, the 730 had 3 or 4. You need both if you really want a production line. If you are only running small height parts and dont need vision (qfn, tssop and bga) get the 730.
Our still run and we are up to the 1080, 3020 and rs1s for rest of machines).
For flexprog you can define which colums you have the data in. we usually have internal p/n, ref des, rotation x and y by default.

[jars121]

Thank you all for your input, it's greatly appreciated, you've provided some much needed insight.

[loki42]

Also,  find out what kind of gear the older jukis need for calibration and if you can still get it.  If I want the full calibration kit for my universal instruments machines it'll cost more than a new Chinese machine. 

[jmelson]

Well, I bought a Quad/Samsung QSA30A from an auction in Austin, TX.  it had been worked on by monkeys, and apparently abandoned as hopeless for about 6 years.  My guess is that it was left in unconditioned space there for the duration.  When I got in in my house, it fired right up and I started learning the software.  Then, 2 days later it would not come out of E-stop.  I had to replace an interface board.  Then, the camera died, then a bunch of other stuff started giving problems, and finally both the X and Y servo amps died the same way.  None of the replacement parts have given any trouble (yet).  So, I'm thinking that the poor storage conditions were responsible for all these issues.  This doesn't really answer your question, but maybe you might try to see what conditions the prospective machine was kept in.  I had a Philips/Yamaha CSM84 for 13 years, and it had close to zero issues in that time, so I was quite surprised with all the issues on the Quad.  Also, pay attention to the manuals.  My Philips manuals were pretty decent, but the Quad/Samsung manuals are the worst I've ever seen!  The guy who ran the factory training course even admitted that.  The good thing about the Quad/Samsung is that the Quad QSA was a fairly rare bird, but it is based on the Samsung CP30, which was VERY popular in the far East.  So, brokers have tons of spare parts at reasonable prices.
Jon

[sam512bb]

Good day,

Although not directly applicable, I bought an older Juki/Zevatech (PM575) about 8 years ago to use for prototyping and small production needs.  I looked at a number of other offerings and either they were much more expensive (3x) and not really suited to our needs, or so-so quality less expensive ($3K to $5K) units.  I decided on the Juki and have been extremely impressed with its build quality and overall reliability.  So far the only real negatives have been:

a. calibration jigs are very tough to find and so I had to deal with some fiddling to get better placements.
b. setup and programming the machine software is cumbersome and clunky as it is DOS based
c. feeders setup are a bit time consuming, but once one is familiar with them it can take 5mins or so

Going further, the internals are old and so there is always a fear of a failure with replacement parts being a concern.  The on-board RTC chip failed and there are no longer made.  However, some enterprising hackers documented a work around for this chip (Dallas RTC with an embedded battery) and so I was able to replace and repair the failed device.  Thankfully I bought my PM575 from the original owners and so I had a complete documentation package including tech documents.  In addition there is a dedciated Yahoo Juki group where the moderators are people who have and continue to service the machines... and so they are very helpful.

Given the above I think the older machines are amazing, but because of their age, etc that they are best suited for those that are prepared to self service and/or are resourceful should anything go awry.  If someone is unable to do this, then  it would be best to use a newer device that has an established service network... but be prepared to pay handsomely for this infrastructure.

With that said, now that time has marched on there are more options available than there was back in 2014.  Given my current needs I would consider the Neoden YY1, but only if the company's claims and user feedback is positive.  Sadly, there has been many desktop units that sound good from a marketing perspective, but in reality require a lot of fiddling and/or have spotty manufacturer support.

My best advice would be take a step back and truly think about how you would use the machines.  If you are thinking about having your own production line in house, then be prepared to spend a lot of $ on some proper high end PnP machines, but also a stencil printer(s), reflow oven(s), but also trained personnel.  For modest production needs it makes far more sense to partner with a relatively local contract manufacturer (CM) who has the latest machines and personnel who will be far more efficient at doing this work... resulting in higher yields, less rework, etc which allows you to focus on other things.  If you simply need or want a setup for in-house prototyping needs, then by all means review what is available and fits your budget.  However, do not get fooled into believing that the lower end or older PnP machines are simply plug and play, they are not... nor are they truly comparable to the high end gear.

Cheers,

Sam

[sarason]

My program PCBSynergy makes programming the Juki 700 series a lot easier than flexprog.

It is here:- https://pcbsynergy.com

sarason