General PCB Manufacturing Pros and Cons

[hcglitte]

I would like to know stackup and dielectric constants between all layers for all combinations of thicknesses and layer count.

And I would like to be sure that when I do a reorder one year later that I get the exact same stackup.

[mrpackethead]

How many of you guys prefer panelizing your designs versus ordering independent boards?

Definenatively want to panelize my own, so i can optimise it for my production... This means a 7mm tooling strip on the two long edges.  4x 3mm holes at 5mm in from each corner.  Fiducal Marks for  (a) stenciling,  (b) PNP aligment..   (c) bad block notification..   The tooling strip also lets you have a place to put layer checks, a place for the fab to put any marks they need.    The above is very specific to how i'm set up and is not for everyone.  By optimising for your own set up you make life much much easier for yourself.   I also know how all the panelisation is set up, so creating PNP files is easy.

[Probb]

Big thanks everyone for the feedback. I'm going to do my best to incorporate some things I think could be really beneficial based on what you've all told me. I'll let you all know when the site's launched.

[KL27x]

Website is important to me.

I want all my account information to be clear and easy to navigate. My quotes, my previous orders.

Reordering should be a click.

I should be able to change quantity of a previous order and submit for quote and lead time with a click.

I almost always want my orders in panels. This should be an option.

My current fab gives 24 hr chat support. But honestly, this is not that big a deal to me. If I need fast support, I will go with someone that has it, but for my day in/out I just want to be able to do everything I need through a web interface.

In short, I want a slick web interface and accurate lead times, and I should almost never have to talk with anyone. I speak Gerber and dollars.  If shop is busy, I want that to be reflected in estimated lead times. If holiday is upcoming, I want that to be reflected, as well. Lead time should be accurate as possible and updated as necessary.

[alanambrose]

Maybe there is a niche in the non-rock bottom stuff - say smaller drills, 6 layer, flex, solder mask between 0.5mm pins etc. I get that 6-layer is more expensive - but 4x the cost of 4 layer?

Alan

[janekm]

Maybe there is a niche in the non-rock bottom stuff - say smaller drills, 6 layer, flex, solder mask between 0.5mm pins etc. I get that 6-layer is more expensive - but 4x the cost of 4 layer?

Alan

I don't think so. The whole concept of low-cost PCB manufacturing is based around pooling customer orders as much as possible. Once you need 6 layers you're also likely to need other specialised options (impedance control, micro-vias, custom stackup) which ruins any pool-based model. Also, in all my years of designing PCBs I have never yet designed a 6 layer PCB, and probably 90% 2-layer, 10% 4-layer. From what I see from others it's very similar. A 6-layer PCB usually takes a much longer time to design as well, so the market is just never going to be as large.

[AxelVoitier]

For me a killer would be mid-range at nicer prices.

Mid range being for medium density: 2 layers with QFN/QFP and small (max 16 pins) BGAs, 4-5 mil min. tracks/space, 0.1 mm min. solder mask, ENIG, 0.2 mm drill, etc.

Currently there is a big jump from the ultra low cost (max 100x100mm, leaded-HASL, 6-mil track, 0,4 mm min. solder mask, 0.3 mm drill) and that mid-range.

Or at the very least something better on the ENIG and min. solder mask side of things. That would be sufficient to fully unlock the next level of SMD designs hobbyist could practically do at a lower cost.


For shipping cost, it's true that for just a few boards of one design it can be expensive (especially for the ultra low-cost range where hobbyist can just etch themselves to have them faster). But if you support having multiple designs per shipping that can be fine (but your website would need to find a way to promote clearly that way of functioning to lower the shipping costs).

What could also help in such configuration is to allow for different fine grained quantity combinaisons of the different designs (because for the first prototype iterations it is not that often you needs these 5 or 10 pcs... and that feels like a waste after a while). And just bill on the total area used (with min. area if you want, like today we have min quantity). In short: I do understand the fab needs minimum board area for the pooling concept to work. But just let me decide how to spread my uses of that area over different designs of low-volumes prototypes. Of course assuming all the designs use the same panel options.

[KE5FX]

The market segment I'm missing is something between the very high prices of western board houses and the lack of reliability from Chinese board houses.

What he said.  Cost is no longer a problem at all, once you stop using US board houses.  There's no room at all for you to undercut the prices I'm seeing from offshore board houses, but on the other hand, I'm always interested in services that cost a bit more but offer more options, better quality, and higher consistency and reliability.  As hcglitte suggests, stackup consistency from one order to the next is very important.

The central problem is that the Chinese direct sites like allpcb.com only have to get a little better before they leave no room for improvement at all.  You're definitely entering a race to the bottom.  Have a plan for what to do when you get there.

[KE5FX]

A 6-layer PCB usually takes a much longer time to design as well.

Yeeeaaaahhhh.... no. 

[mrpackethead]

Also, in all my years of designing PCBs I have never yet designed a 6 layer PCB, and probably 90% 2-layer, 10% 4-layer. From what I see from others it's very similar. A 6-layer PCB usually takes a much longer time to design as well, so the market is just never going to be as large.

Im more like 80%, 4 layer, 10% 2 layer, and 10% more than 4 layers.    4 layer pcbs are considerably cheaper to design than 2 layers, result in tighter and often much better results.

[mrpackethead]

The market segment I'm missing is something between the very high prices of western board houses and the lack of reliability from Chinese board houses.

What he said.  Cost is no longer a problem at all, once you stop using US board houses.  There's no room at all for you to undercut the prices I'm seeing from offshore board houses, but on the other hand, I'm always interested in services that cost a bit more but offer more options, better quality, and higher consistency and reliability.  As hcglitte suggests, stackup consistency from one order to the next is very important.

The central problem is that the Chinese direct sites like allpcb.com only have to get a little better before they leave no room for improvement at all.  You're definitely entering a race to the bottom.  Have a plan for what to do when you get there.

In deed.  there product is actually pretty acceptable in 95% of cases. Where the let down is this mismatch of expectations and/or information.     If you want to sit in that space and get that right, theres a market.  becuae that is the ONLY value proposition that is left.  But watch out the chinese are getting better at it.

[Probb]

Awesome feedback everybody, it's really appreciated! We're taking a lot of your comments into serious consideration and trying to make a solid overall solution that incorporates everyone's ideas.

Here's a quick update (keeping things short and sweet):

• In terms of keeping costs down, we realize shipping is the big killer. So, we're working on the logistics to create a pooling system that ships multiple orders to a single location (in multiple areas) for pick-up
• We're developing an order form that is really fast and simple to use with links to all of our manufacturing details so you clearly understand what our limitations are (trace spacing, drill sizes, etc.)
• Our site will be member based, so you'll be able to track order history and simply click on previous orders and select a quantity to make an order for an older board you designed and previously made.
• We're working to make 4L and 6L board processes inexpensive while maintaining high output quality
• We're also working to keep prices low for board quantity orders over 10
• DISCOUNTS GALORE! (More details to come)
• The beta site should be up and running in about a month (+/- a couple weeks).

Keep the feedback coming (positive and negative) - it's been extremely helpful!

[Probb]

Hahaha we're in the process of working out all the kinks. The uncertainties will be gone the day we launch

[Probb]

evb149 mentioned something about being able to order PCBs + stencils + front panels + enclosures  in a sort of combined package. Does anybody else see a benefit to this? I like the idea of getting custom enclosure's developed based on common PCB sizes and including it in a PCB order, but I don't want to push to far outside of a particular niche (you can only add so much before things get messy); however, there might be something more to this. Thoughts?

[ataradov]

Forget the PCBs. If you could start a service of just making custom (customized) enclosures, it would be great on its own. Getting things machined in plastic in the US is prohibitively expensive, and foreign companies want a huge order before they do anything.

[Cerebus]

The beta site should be up and running in about a month (+/- a couple weeks).

25%+ uncertainty? This will drive those volt nuts here nuts !

Your error analysis is off. "about a month" could mean everything from 29-31 days (German "about"), one to three months (in a mañana or insha'Allah culture) to three months to a year (rural Ireland*). So I make that an error margin of -100%/+1200%.


* Paddy: So what does 'mañana' mean?
Juan: That I'll get around to it when I do.
Paddy: Oh, we have a phrase like that back in Ireland. Only it doesn't contain the same sense of burning urgency as 'mañana'.
Juan: What's the phrase?
Paddy: "I'll do it tomorrow."

[jmelson]

I had a customer specify that a board needed to come in a nice box.  I found a very affordable extruded aluminum box at Newark, about $10 in single quantity.
I machined one end plate for connectors, and found a DIN rail adaptor for it.  But, the end plates were hard anodized, and I ended up breaking one solid carbide end mill per cover, more or less!
Yikes.  I think the fix, if I ever did that again was to throw out the cover that needed machining and machine new ones from NON-anodized aluminum and cover them with a label.

Jon

[asmi]

+1 to making midrange 4-6 layer boards more affordable. I don't mind waiting a week or two before shipping if it would make these boards cheaper. New Allpcb.com service sounds great except they they emphasise speed, and for some bizarre reason they charge $8.695 for each BGA part you've got on the board. Other than that they offer good prices, and is the only manufacturer I know of that offers cheap "Controlled Impedance" option (only $17.39 for 4-layer board).

[KE5FX]

New Allpcb.com service sounds great except they they emphasise speed, and for some bizarre reason they charge $8.695 for each BGA part you've got on the board.

Even if you don't order assembly service?

[asmi]

Even if you don't order assembly service?

Yep. Check out their new ordering page - there is a field at the bottom where you're supposed to type in number of BGAs in your design. I wonder what they were thinking when they've introduced this surcharge - I can't think of any reason to use 6-layer boards other than breaking out large BGAs...

[ataradov]

They just want to pad the price. In the end PCBWay is cheaper than AllPcb all around. I fell like they just want to convert AllPcb into a premium service.

[asmi]

They just want to pad the price. In the end PCBWay is cheaper than AllPcb all around. I fell like they just want to convert AllPcb into a premium service.

Not for 6-layer boards. Even with added costs of 4 BGAs 0.125/0.125/0.25 mm boards with 50 Ohm CI (minimum for 0.8 mm BGAs like DDR2/3/3L) are cheaper in allpcb. PCBWay pricing for that kind of board is weird - price with CI is less that without CI

[ataradov]

Not for 6-layer boards.

Don't judge allpcb price by the instant quote. They will bump it by a random amount after you already paid, and ask you to pay more. At least that's what they did to me on a pretty simple board.

And oh yeah, refunds don't go back to PayPal, they go towards store credit.

[asmi]

Don't judge allpcb price by the instant quote. They will bump it by a random amount after you already paid, and ask you to pay more. At least that's what they did to me on a pretty simple board.

I used their service few times (admittedly before they've dumped subcontracting business and became a manufacturer), and what you're describing only happened once, and even then we quickly resolved situation to my satisfaction. So I can't say anything bad about them from my experience - other than they don't seem to support Gerber x2 format and work with older one.

[Kean]

Additional cost per BGA could be related to e-testing.  They might have to use a higher spec flying probe machine for some BGA pad layouts.
That additional cost seems somewhat exhorbitant though.  I imagine they want to always cover costs (+ a good margin) on these more advanced designs ... while they still can.